Hopefully this won't turn into a "why even build a jeep" thread I just want to get some good facts about building vs. buying

So lets compare here, I've heard some numbers being thrown around about how much the New JEEP Rubicon is gonna cost and I agree that it'll be around $28,000- $33,000 SO...with that in mind lets compare building a similar vehicle (Still new) with after market parts

I'll start:

It's my understanding that a NEW base model jeep can be had for about 19,000-20,000 (correct me if I'm wrong)

so we'll start there.

19,500 + whatever aftermarket parts it would take to make the base model JEEP "GET IT" Keeping in mind we want 4:1, Lockers, at least 31" tires, Lift (or else it won't "GET IT"), blah, blah, blah.

So list the parts you would add, including those parts prices.(including "ESTIMATED" shop labor if necessary)

keep in mind we're trying to keep it under $33,000 (that's at the high end of the estimated Rubicon price......

SO.....WHAT WOULD YOU ADD???

i can't add anything to a 20k rig. i am to much of a cheap ass. i have two very capable rigs that don't have 3k in each. but i do like the idea. i will build the next one under 3k also and it will be on 44s,500cid auto and rockwells. so i can''t really give a honest answer to your idea. but i am sure this will open up a lot of newbies to wheeling.

a hell this is hard, it wouldnt be any good for me, ive thrown all my jeep away basically.....


ok if i were to build i ride with 31's to be able to get it, (not that you can with 31's but........)

teralow..............1000
sye and shaft.......650
1
inch body.........100
bellyup................300
relocate fuel tank... free
engine skid..........150
steering box skid.......50
custom steering........300
rockrails..................230
winch.................1000 (includes front bumper)
rear swingout carrier....250
lock rites 2...........500
swaybars removed
shocks, fitted to my travel... 180
upper and lower controll arms....1000
keep the 30 in the front because the damn 44 aint gonna be stronger where it is needed........ ever.... (unless we talk ctm and warn :D ) hell lets even add the ctm and warn



5700$ for a jeep that would be way superior to the rubicon!

new, 20,000 + 6700 = 26,700


or pick up a used on easily for 13,000 + 6700 = 19,700


if your gonna do all that might as well go with bigger tires too... imho definately not worth it.

The only thing I see thats good about buying is the factory warranty on everything.

yeaahhh ok, 10,000$ that you wouldnt pay would surely cover a hell of alot of broken shit.... plus if it breaks..... must build it with diferent better parts.......... imho i dont see that as a good reason

considering that my definetion of "getting it" means beating the crap out of my rig to the point of having to build a new one every few years because it is so smashed and bent it would seem stupid to buy a new vechile with the intent to "get it" go drag one out of the junk yard and turn it into a wheeler.

i am probally gonna buy a rubicon to drive around town in cause they are cool. but a true wheeler it is not.

Originally posted by Retard
The only thing I see thats good about buying is the factory warranty on everything.

I know they are marketing this thing as "Off Road Ready",but I would have to imagine that the small print on that factory warranty excludes any off pavement excursions:( :(

Well obviously if your going to beat the crap out of a vehicle you shouldn't buy it brand new... :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Retard
Well obviously if your going to beat the crap out of a vehicle you shouldn't buy it brand new... :rolleyes:

obviously retard:rolleyes:

I'm not a Jeep man and I know nothing about Jeep build up. I like the fact that they are building these, for the main reason that other companies will follow if they sell as well as I think they will. In 5-10 years when these things start showing up in the junk yards I will rob parts from them. As for now they will bring quite a few new people to the sport and I'm not going to speculate if that is a good or bad thing. I figure that if you are a "hardcore" wheeler then this really won't suit your needs anyway. I think that itIS a step in the right direction for the auto industry.

I'd bet that the warranty won't be worth a shit.
And: Warranty does you no good on the trail. Hello, Roadside service?

Nobody (at least nobody sane) buys a brand new $20,000-$30,000 rig takes it out in the woods, and beats the crap out of it...

That, as I see it would be the biggest obstacle to buying one of these things--the fact that each ding and scrape knocks off 2%of the value. It's just economically unsound. Unless you're buying this rig to drive daily--with only mild, occaisional off-roading--it's a raging waste of money.

If you get it in one of these overpriced things, you're an idiot.

No, my money says that most of these new Rubicons will crawl to the mall and back and rarely, if ever, see any REAL (down and dirty, scraping through the scrub brush, smashing the rockers on the rocks) wheeling.

I say wait until you can get one used from some yuppie who's ready to jump on the bandwagon for whatever automotive fad follows this one. Then, and only then would it make any sense.

IMNSHO,
Jake

:flipoff2:

I dont think they will be popular because the people who buy these things dont know what Dana44's or Air lockers are so why the fuck would they pay that sticker? To them its just like any other jeep.

Originally posted by Jakesteramalamajama
Nobody (at least nobody sane) buys a brand new $20,000-$30,000 rig takes it out in the woods, and beats the crap out of it... IMNSHO,
Jake

:flipoff2:

We're gonna have to introduce you to some of the trailriders! I was shocked at how many folks we have with brand new TJ's who bolt on another few thousand worth of parts - and then procede to beat the living crap out of it.

Of course my previous rig - a 96 cherokee only had 3000 miles on it when the rockers got pushed up into the doors. - oops

Strangely enough some folks do buy new jeeps and bash them. Personally I prefer to build and break something I don't have to drive to work.

The rubicon seems perfect for the guy who wants to do some wheeling, but isn't into building.

Bad idea. Very bad idea. I keep thinking what the hell would you think if you actually did get a new Rubicon on the trail and ripped the rock panel off and took off a fender? Paint? Big waiste of money in my opinion. There's a certain wonderful freedom in rolling your junk or tearing up sheetmetal and simply cracking a brew, sitting down and laughing your ass off at it. I personally would not trade that freedom for any shiney new techno-wonder off the shelf wheeler.

Some years ago, I bought a semi beat 87 YJ for 3k. It's now got a TBI 5.7, T18, 20 and 8 lug axles on 38's. It's ugly. It's beat. But it stays together (sometimes) and it's a helluva lot of fun for about $8k total investment. And if I loose sheetmetal and paint, I get to laugh my ass off instead of cry to a creditor. :D

Originally posted by Jakesteramalamajama
Nobody (at least nobody sane) buys a brand new $20,000-$30,000 rig takes it out in the woods, and beats the crap out of it... Just color me f-ing looney. :flipoff2::flipoff2:

i know nothing about build jeeps i'm building a cruiser. but i see one major problem with the buy not build and that is you don't know how to fix the mother when it breaks.

saw the rubicon in the new 4 wheeler think it's meant more for the dirt driveway guys or the prairrie city weekend warrior. myself like many others are cheap and to beat on a 20k rig is just nuts.

i see alot of peeople saying stuff like 30k is alot of money to beat on 4x4. i talked to a guy that has a 78 fj40 w 350 sm420 35's and wheels and he wheeled it pretty hard. so now he wants a cool daily driver 4x4 and so he buys a hummer 100K and it's great for about a year and yes he took it across the con why cause thats what it was built for. to each his own.

Nuts too!:flipoff2:

I guess I'm craay too:flipoff2:

I've gotta admit if I had one I'd defintely wheel it. I may not "GET IT" as defined above, but I'd defintely be doing some Questionable wheelin' with it.

I just can't wait till someone on the board buys one and gives us a sample of it's abilities.

I know 4W&OR is supposed get one before they're available on the market and do a write-up on it, but I don't know if they'd put it through the RANKS like a POR'r would.

well it is a heep and all. the air lockers seem really cool! but i wouldn't take it off raod on hard trails. i would demolish the paint and all the other nice stuff:confused: :rolleyes: that a heep has to offer. like broken parts!!

cool idea, now only if they would put all that stuff in a real rig like a toyota!:flipoff2:

Back in the olden days, buying a rig to wheel wasn't uncommon but 4X4's were built better then. My last new Jeep was a '79 with an I6, 4sp and 4.10's with a posi rear which I bought specifically for wheeling. Not a bad rig out of the box but still not what I wanted. Still, I put bigger tires on it and ran the 'Con a couple of times before I moved to Washington.

Point is, I don't think the new stockers are built anywhere as tough as as those that were sold in the 70's. Quite frankly, after driving a few of the DC Jeeps, I'd be afraid to take them off-road without major mods.

Oh, that old '79 I mentioned . . . less than a half hour after I took delivery I had the RF fender destroyed. That was the first dent and the rest didn't bother me.

I think it's a great idea. We see the vocal minority on this board that really REALLy go out and get extreme.
My roommate just bought a new TJ. He's doing a longarm kit and 35's, with ARB's. He'll probably do a D44 front eventually. He'll wheel it, but he won't beat the piss out of it like I do my CJ7. I bet he'd have bought this thing on financing just for the lockers and the t-case. It would be a GREAT wheeler with a longarm kit and some tires.

I SERIOUSLY doubt that thing will be like $30K... It's WRANGLER for christ sake, they've always been low-buck. I'm guessing $25k, and for that $5K its totally worth it.
Think of the cost of a Currie D44, upgraded T-case, TeraLow4:1, front-rear ARB's... + installation... that's a lot of cheddar, easily $5k

-J

"I'd bet that the warranty won't be worth a shit.
And: Warranty does you no good on the trail. Hello, Roadside service?"

Funny, Rover covers pretty much everything. Grenade a dif, halfshaft, cv all waranteed. I have even seen obvious trail damage covered (bent trailing arms) If the dealer is a fawker they will void you if you run a non LR lift but other than that you are cool. Hopefully jeep will maintain a similar standard.

Also the road side assistance will mostly cover hauling your butt out of a field when you get stuck too. Lots of people I know have submitted bills from joe redneck's 4x4 wrecker and gotton reinbursed.

"no one would take a 33k rig offroad"

LOL, I have seen 68k NBS rangies with body damage and WV pinstriping. If you can afford it, you can probably afford to wheel it. Does not mean it makes sense.

Ron

I'll keep my yj thanks. I wouldn't touch that TJ with a 10 foot pole, and here are my reasons why.
1. The Japanese made air lockers.
I have been in too many rigs with ARB's that had air line failure, to make me not want one. If I don't even trust ARB's, I sure as heck aint gonna trust a japanese knock off.
2. The 44 front doesnt really solve much.
Yes, you can say, I have 44's front and rear, but its a standard rotation front with the same old 297 u joints that still break. Heck Ive got a D30 in mine, and its a hi pinion reverse cut, which makes it just as strong as that 44 front standard cut. now all I need are some warn alloy shafts and CTM's, and I'll have an axle a lot stronger than the jeep 44 fronts.
3. They havent reverted back to leaf springs yet.
I hate coils. Always have, ever since the intro of the TJ, and probably always will, but then again, Im biased :D
4. For me, most of the fun I have is building the rig, to make it work, and if it doesnt work, I try something different. With the rubicon TJ, there isnt really much for you to build.
Those are just my opinion, and Im sure I will get someone on here disagreeing with me, but hey, thats life in the big city.
Scott :grinpimp:<><

i wonder about the liability of selling a locked up heep. i have seen a lot of "wallet wheelers" who talk the talk but when you lock the hubs cant find there ass with both hands. i am not real comfortable with having to help someone out of a dangerous situation that has no idea what he is doing. starting with a open diff vehicle usually keeps you out of trouble while you learn to drive and build your rig.this heep will probably be real cool, but will mostly be owned by wannabe wheelers. i will give them a wide berth. just mu .02

How many times have you heard "boy I wish the factory would offer a decent wheeler from the factory". Jeep is finally putting out a solid foundation and still no one is happy. Oh well. Notice I said foundation. Also any one who doesn't think that some one will buy one of these add a decent lift/tire combo and go serious wheeling is fooling themselves. Just look around on the trails and you'll see built Sahara TJ's.

Originally posted by locrwln
How many times have you heard "boy I wish the factory would offer a decent wheeler from the factory". Jeep is finally putting out a solid foundation and still no one is happy.

I agree, I think it's sweet and if they still offer it when I have the dough, I'll be at the JEEP dealer REALLY quick.

I suspect no one will be happy until they offer the following:
Jeep CJ-8 (bobbed optional)
Vortec V-6
NV4500
AtlasII w/4.3
HP D60's shaved w/4:56's
"High Angle" or "Tom Woods" (optional) drive-shafts
and 37"SSR's to top it off. :eek:

And BTW I'd defintely be on THAT bandwagon

It just puts more urbanite retards on the trails w/ no spare parts or knowledge on how to fix their sh*t. More people for others to pull out to continue on a trail. It's a false sense of security and the birth of the RUW (rich urban wheeler) (not that they dont already exist). Agreed the price will be sky high and WAY overrated but it will help the sport by adding more interest.

So your calling these guys nuts???????
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=232130
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=232486

Why is everyone getting worked up about a vehicle that will be a better factory built rock crawler than any other other stock vehicle that I can think of. some points to ponder...

1) its a factory vehicle with a good crawl ratio, lockers, and fairly heavy duty parts.

2) They will be wheeled. Though not many in the style Camo suggests, but yet even then there will be those.

3) You can't compare it to something you've built yourself for cheap. It's apples to oranges.

4) you can't compare it to a hand built tube buggy.

5) There are people out there that actually wheel that can afford to spend 28k on a new TJ then spend another 10k, or more tricking it out further.

All it is is a factory tricked out TJ nothing more nothing less. People buy TJ's off the lot's and take them to a shop to have them built every day. Thank god for me. I've got news for you guys guess what I sell the most aftermarket parts for, and do the most work on? TJ's.

To answer Cliffy's actual question... A TJ equipped the way I would want it.

Both tops hard, soft.

6 cyl. (yes I wish it had a V8:rolleyes:)

A/C (yes I would use it untill it broke then a compressor it becomes)

Dana 44 rear

A good enough factory stereo

All the intermittent wipers, tilt defrost etc. not bottom of the line seats, rear seat, etc. etc.

Auto or 5 speed whatever.

This would cost 24k ish in CA.

Add a 4 to one kit, and sye/driveshaft add a Dana 44 front (297x blah blah I know) a set of lockers front and rear with a regear on the rear , ad better disc brakes so my 4:1 auto TJ would stop. ad rocker guards, (I know diamond plate's fugly) either way I would be buying a new set of tires and a lift so let's forget about that. It wouldn't be hard to pay 7k for all that stuff installed. So yes Cliffy the Rubicon's a good deal for those that would want to buy a new vehicle to go wheeling in.

Personally, I'm with Camo on this one. Trail rigs usually last me a couple of years at best, before a major redo or it's thrashed to the point of doo doo. If I really wanted to build the "ultimate" TJ, I would wind up with what I'm starting with now. a frame and a body.. For me it would be a waste of money to buy something new and try to use it as a trail rig. For many this is not the case.

Here's my story

Bought a 99' TJ auto, dana 44 rear, NO A/C, dual tops, wheeled a little, put a 4" kit and 33 MTRs (3.73s) wheeled alot more (montrose, moab, all over colorado)

Learned alot, broke a little, yearned for more, yet had empty pockets.

Mind you that the TJ is one of our daily drivers, (only 3 miles though) Gets trailer to events (incase of major stupidity)

I sure would like a 4:1 4wheel discs and lockers, but I figured I replace as I broke.

Well wife flips the TJ last week, get a check for 9k (hardtop, waves on driver side panels and front axle bent)

Upgrading to atlas, rr currie 9, arbs re-gear 4.56, plus install eats 9k real quick! (I work 10-14 hours a day, I sure as shoot am paying to have all that installed!)

When the snow melts, I wheel some more and tweak some more.

My point is... I get in every time and it starts at -15 degrees, it keeps the weather out and the heat in, and I financed the 18.5k purchase price with a trade in of $2200 (wifes escort)

If I could have I would have bought the rubicon. Warranty? What is going to break that would not be covered, u-joint $20, axle shafts, replace with warns as needed. If the locker doesn't work take it to the dealer! I believe they are offering 7years/100k miles.

My atlas, arbs, and axle come with none.

For a guy like me who works so much, 1 stop shopping works!

Don't let your dealer fool you, it doesn't matter if you were wheelin or driving on the street. The warranty will cover broken axles and such as long as the tires are the same size and there isn't any major mods done. Some dealers try their best to tell you it's not covered, but it is. Look in the owners manual and it explains how to use the Jeep offroad. I have talked to the district reps and the zone reps about this and was told it is covered. I have snapped u-joints, trashed axleshafts, blown up a t-case, twisted a driveshaft and more. It has always been covered. What they won't cover is parts damaged by rocks and such. If you buy a winch and have it installed before you take delivery of the Jeep it will be covered for 3/36 also, as is any other Mopar accessory installed then.

But what fun is it if you can't do a bunch of mods????

The main problem is all the dealers who are a$$holes.

Your best bet is to buy a seperate set of larger tires and rims for offroad. Then just clean it real good and put your stock tires on before going in for service.

Since they advertise them for offroad use they have to cover broken parts or it is false advertiising. It can be a real pain in the ass to get it covered though.

I used to work at a dealer and asked all about this and also found out how to handle it when they try to fawk you.

Its a good idea to go into the service department and ask about offroad use before looking at a Jeep just to see if they are worth a fawk or not before talking to anyone in sales. If not try another dealer.

Bringing in doughnuts or something when you go in for service helps grease the wheels too.

Just don't get in thier face if they try and fawk you until after you call customer assistance and maybe talk to thier reps.

After that :nuke: um!!!!

Otherwise just be smart and buy a cheap ride and build the fawk out of it!!!!!

As for body damage find a good insurance company and make sure you are covered offroad. I contacted my insurance company about offroad use and they sent a letter stating that as long as I'm not in a formal competition I'm fully covered. Read all the fine print in your policy also. Just expect you rates to go up if you take it in for every little dent. Just wait till you go wheels up and file a claim then. When they total it take your cash, buy it back(if you can depends on your state) and make it a trail rig. Use the cash to build the fawk out of it. :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by Tim Palen
I have snapped u-joints, trashed axleshafts, blown up a t-case, twisted a driveshaft and more.

Right but my point before was what happens when its joe nobody out playing off the highway and blows an output shaft or driveshaft or axleshaft or u-joint holding up the trail you are on? Or more seriously forgets to turn off his locker and its raining on the street and t-bones your wife or kid from lack of education on their own vehicle's capabilities and handling characteristics?

From what I've heard the air lockers only work in low range at speeds below 15mph. That should help idiot proof them some at least...

As for the guy who breaks on the trail ahead of you, hopefully you can get past, help him out or drag him out of the way. With any luck maybe he'll learn a lesson about bringing spare parts and such...

Otherwise :nuke: him and then play in the rubble. :p

Originally posted by scouter77


Right but my point before was what happens when its joe nobody out playing off the highway and blows an output shaft or driveshaft or axleshaft or u-joint holding up the trail you are on? Or more seriously forgets to turn off his locker and its raining on the street and t-bones your wife or kid from lack of education on their own vehicle's capabilities and handling characteristics?

I would hope if someone in a TJ Rubicon breaks on the trail, you'd help him or her out just like you would your buddy in the CJ or whatever. It's not like we didn't all learn by trial and error

Like that's not already a worry with all the idiots rolling in Epeditions; I'd rather get T-boned by some jack-ass in a locked TJ.

I think I would have to agree with the others and say that if you really want to wheel ( and I mean gettn it) you would be a lot better off in money and in wheeling fun buying old and build up. Not to mention the pride you get from building something and using it.:beer:

I forgot to mention something in my lengthy post, in which I actually answered the question:flipoff2:

I no longer get any sense of pride or feel that I'm cooler because I built my rig my self. Besides having worked at a used to be famous fab shop that built sprint cars , drag, show, 4X4, as well as the truck's and tractors no one else would fix, I have done more build ups then I want to remember. Now I own a shop that while we won't take on a full build up we do suspension installs. If I won the lottery I would just plain buy it. Fawk building it myself. Hell I'd buy a sticker that says real "whatevers" are bought not self built :flipoff2:

Maybe having worked in so many shops has you fed up with the build routine but I still like to say look what I built not look at what my checkbook can buy. Plus if it break you can fix it how many of the new parts are you going to be able to get as spares and if you work on it what happens to that warranty?

I often work 7 days a week and the majority of the rest of the time its 6 days a week soooooo........ I got no time to build much less repair a rig.

I got to do buy a rig things.... have it built/repairied, out of my pocket (which is usually empty) or with the help of good buddies.. THANKS ALL OF YOU that have been those good buddies in the past and future.

So for me.... the Rubicon sounds like a great place to start a new build up over my present thrashed TJ.

Originally posted by Jakesteramalamajama
Nobody (at least nobody sane) buys a brand new $20,000-$30,000 rig takes it out in the woods, and beats the crap out of it...

That, as I see it would be the biggest obstacle to buying one of these things--the fact that each ding and scrape knocks off 2%of the value. It's just economically unsound. Unless you're buying this rig to drive daily--with only mild, occaisional off-roading--it's a raging waste of money.
IMNSHO,
Jake

:flipoff2:

I would have to say this is not true at all. I took (in my infinite wisdom) my 98 4Runner with a rear locker and 32 inch ATs on some pretty nasty trails. To the point that I bent a control rod and all my skid plates landing on rocks. I'm not saying I'm smart, but I think people will buy those jeeps thinking they're going to be instant badasses offroad. Then they'll they'll take them offraod and fall in love with 4wheeling. Hopefully they'll be smart and build a beater like I'm doing.

Anway point being I think people WILL buy them just because of the cool factor and they think they'll be a kickasss driver offroad.