Alright, I got a pair of 2522's from Nathan at XK's Unlimited.

So, now I'm wondering if there's anything I can do to them, have done to them, or anything of that sort that can make them stronger...better...faster.

I know we have the technology, just wondering if it's worth it.

:flipoff2:

EDIT: CV's are from Allmakes

Cryogenic treatment.

Put 'em in your freezer for a few days.

Wrap them in duct tape. If you can't duct it.......

Wrap them in duct tape. If you can't duct it.......

Oh yeah, I can tell this is going no where fast.

:rolleyes:

You can try to "Longfield" 'em by JB-Welding a ring of PVC pipe around the CV.

Thats crappy advice. Just paint them gold and be done.

The only thing tha comes to mind is an old Oil Can Henery's slogan. "If you love it, lube it!" Other than that Wilsby is right on the mark.

-Jeff

I think that the limits of the AEU have been reached with heavy duty internals... it seems to be much more commonplace now for people to be twisting them off at the stub shaft than exploding the internals.

... it seems to be much more commonplace now for people to be twisting them off at the stub shaft than exploding the internals.

I second that ... speaking from first had experience. If you have access to a really hot oven (read: heat treater), you can toy around with the Rockwell ratings on the internals ... assuming you have someone who can help you figure up heat times and cooling times. Also, putting a radius on the edges of the cage theoretically gets rid of a 'break' point.
T

Send them to me and you can be the next crash test dummy for a new idea i have:)

Keith
hmmmmm
www.rovertracks.com

I think that the limits of the AEU have been reached with heavy duty internals... it seems to be much more commonplace now for people to be twisting them off at the stub shaft than exploding the internals.

So who is breaking off the stub??

Got any pics?

IMO a stock 2522 isnt a strong CV at all. Like I said in that other thread I broke a new stock one easily and havnt broken the one with a ring on it yet although it did start to crack the weld so I have now ground it back, heated it up a bit hotter and rewelded the ring on it so will see how it goes.

I believe the single best mod that you can do to make your CVs last longer is to put steering stops on the back of the knuckle. Next time after you go wheeling put the front axle up on blocks and then turn the wheels by hand to full lock. Now look on the back side of the knuckle and see how far the swivel seal wipes around the swivel ball and compare it to how far it has gone while to were wheeling (you can easily see how far it has moved by the clean mark in the ball). In my case the seal had moved about 8mm (5/16in)further than the bumpstop allows. This is a lot sharper angle than any CV can reasonable handle.

Sam

I believe the single best mod that you can do to make your CVs last longer is to put steering stops on the back of the knuckle.

I am guilty of not doing that adequately. It might have even led to the CV failure in the first place.

In my search to make the turning radius smaller (yeah, I know, a worthless quest), I have my steering stops set up so that the wheels rub against the radius arms.

I wonder if the lugs catching on the radius arms combined with the torque being passed through the axle/CV is helping speed up the destruction process.

I'll adjust the steering stops accordingly when I put this thing back together.

Seriously though, does anyone really think Longfielding them will help with the strenth or is it just a losing battle no matter what I do and I should just save my $$$?

You can try to "Longfield" 'em by JB-Welding a ring of PVC pipe around the CV.

So, who *has* longfielded a rover ae2522 CV yet? Bill and I were thinking about it when we bought some, but I never got around to it...

Who, has? and if so, hows it working? Does it fit in the swivel ball, myne are honed out to fit the ABS ring that I got from Bill at GBR ( I suspect those
actually add some strenght as they almost press on their and probably help
keep the CV from expanding??? )

So anyways, you closet longfielders ( Merv? :flipoff2: ) come out, come out,
wherever you are!

PS: I'm lazy, I'm still waiting on the return of the Diff, and my porsche is now up on blocks as either the 2 year old 6000 miles of clutch wore out or part of the throwout bearing or something is keeping the clutch plate from contacting the flywheel ( as in no go, nova, nada movement ), I replaced master and slave cylinder as I had "sticky pedal", bled em to no avail, pedal feels great but still no clutch/flywheel friction? ..... at any rate I haven't been back in the garage to look for the correct CV for ya Slade as its a sad sight! A C4 convertable Porsche on blocks , A Rover with two axles sticking out the side with no diff, and yech my wifes Mini Van, which is new and does work...
All of em are a terrible sight :shaking: The next step is to yank the engine to get at the clutch, what fun! Why didn't this happen in the dead of winter, when it would sit their anyways?

Send them to me and you can be the next crash test dummy for a new idea i have:)

Keith
hmmmmm
www.rovertracks.com
Keith,
Tom here, hows the diff? if you can post how you thought it failed to the pooch screwin thread, that'd be cool!
I'll call ya tomorrow.

TomW

I second that ... speaking from first had experience. If you have access to a really hot oven (read: heat treater), you can toy around with the Rockwell ratings on the internals ... assuming you have someone who can help you figure up heat times and cooling times. Also, putting a radius on the edges of the cage theoretically gets rid of a 'break' point.
T
Thats how myne failed, but I figured it was becuase I had the GKN clutch hubs, so it just kinda moved the failure point?

TomW

I am guilty of not doing that adequately. It might have even led to the CV failure in the first place.

In my search to make the turning radius smaller (yeah, I know, a worthless quest), I have my steering stops set up so that the wheels rub against the radius arms.

I wonder if the lugs catching on the radius arms combined with the torque being passed through the axle/CV is helping speed up the destruction process.

I'll adjust the steering stops accordingly when I put this thing back together.

Seriously though, does anyone really think Longfielding them will help with the strenth or is it just a losing battle no matter what I do and I should just save my $$$?

I'll have to say, my lugs with the 37" boggers hit the radius arm ( theres a nice shiny spot there )... I'll have to go look where I can weld on or bolt up a new stop...

TomW

So who is breaking off the stub??
Got any pics?
Sam

Sam I was with Ralph when he broke a RHS (I think) AEU2522 at the stub just behind the drive flange at Emu Ck a few years back. So clean it looked like it had been cut with a drop-saw.

Now I think about it I think you may have seen this one. He broke it trying to climb a steep ledge with both lockers in and the wheels straight.

So, who *has* longfielded a rover ae2522 CV yet?

It may be a bit hard to read from Sam's post but he has "Wrongfielded" a few AEU2522's now - with good results. I managed to break one of the genuine Toy Longfields driving his buggy while the "Wrongfielded" AEU2522 on the other side held up fine (yes, Sam has a mix-and-match front end in his buggy :D ).

So I'm sure if you ask nicely Sam will Wrongfield some for you and ship them.

I hear the BEST mod for an AEU2522 is to get them replaced with TOY Birfields (_ _ _ _ fields...)

I have broken in excess of 4 CV's at the stub shaft. I can do it in a straight line if I like. (read no turning of any sort with 37" Swamper SX's and a crawler baby).

So, after this last weekend, where I broke another short side CV, Its always the short side because the shafts are not tunned to each other. I have decided to scrap CV's all together. I will be running HD D44 ujointed fronts next. So, depending on my cash flow over the next few weeks, i will have them done soon, and i will post pics and hopefully a good video of me beatin the crap outa them.

Untill this weekend I was convinced that the Toy CV conversion was the way to go, but I cant help thinking about all the D44 Ujointed axles that get it so hard with similar weighted trucks. And so I have broken down.

Moral of the story Mike. Toss the CV's in the trash, and next time i see you I will give you a good beating. It will be much easier for you that way. And you wife will have more sympathy for your bloody ass, rather than yelling at you for spending more money on trucks.

Its all ball bearings these days. (Chevy Chase)

So who is breaking off the stub??

Got any pics?

IMO a stock 2522 isnt a strong CV at all. Like I said in that other thread I broke a new stock one easily and havnt broken the one with a ring on it yet although it did start to crack the weld so I have now ground it back, heated it up a bit hotter and rewelded the ring on it so will see how it goes.

I believe the single best mod that you can do to make your CVs last longer is to put steering stops on the back of the knuckle. Next time after you go wheeling put the front axle up on blocks and then turn the wheels by hand to full lock. Now look on the back side of the knuckle and see how far the swivel seal wipes around the swivel ball and compare it to how far it has gone while to were wheeling (you can easily see how far it has moved by the clean mark in the ball). In my case the seal had moved about 8mm (5/16in)further than the bumpstop allows. This is a lot sharper angle than any CV can reasonable handle.

Sam
Sam,
I think you may be onto something here. I ran stock offset alloys with bigger rubber for a long time, and had to set the stops all the way out. I really do believe that this has an effect, just as most u-joints snap from too much radius/binding. I have found that most heeps here in CO running the tight ass trails always have their stops set too wide, and bust joints...

There is no question that cv's will break under to much steer angle, however, In my case, my stops have been reset beyond factory since about 2 months after I bought the truck, due to larger tires. And lets be honest, Rovers do not have alot of steer angle in their axles to begin with. If you area good driver, and you know your truck, you should know not to exceed a certain steer angle while you are in the gas. Bottom line, rover CV's are not yet up to the task at hand. I for one am sick of them

...rover CV's are not yet up to the task at hand. I for one am sick of them

Woah. Are you sure?

:flipoff2:

My point on the steering stops is that rovers only have them on the front of the knuckle and not on the rear. So it doesent matter how you set your stops on the front when the wheel is levered backwards it can easily be forced way beyond what the front stop allows.

So why are people now breaking stubs on the 2522 ?? Whats changed about these CVs?

Sam

My point on the steering stops is that rovers only have them on the front of the knuckle and not on the rear. So it doesent matter how you set your stops on the front when the wheel is levered backwards it can easily be forced way beyond what the front stop allows.

So why are people now breaking stubs on the 2522 ?? Whats changed about these CVs?

Sam

But Sam, the left knuckle steer stop acts as the steering stop for the right side and vise versa. Meaning, that the front is only allowed to steer as much as the stops allow. The extra wipe you are seeing is from the flex of all the components when under stress or heavy steering. Adjusting the front steering stops does exactly the same job that having rear steering stops will do. Having one in front and one in back is redundant.

If you put a rear steer stop on the right knuckle, and had the front stop on the left knuckle, And you adjusted the right rear steer stop to compensate for the extra wipe of the seal, you will cease to use the left front steer stop anymore. Theyt do the same JOB. As said before, your complaint comes from flex of components and has nothing to do with steering stops.

So, to adjust your stops, make sure you have someone cranking hard on the steering wheel (power steering will groan slightly), so that you can see how far the knuckle actually turns.

It's been my experience and from what I gather as a general rule that the Allmakes will shear at the splines on the stub and the Genuine (GKN or whatever) will fracture at the bell more often than not. So find an inexpensive source for the genuines and Wrongfield/Longfield them, then set the steering stops so that you can't turn and get some rear steer. Keith, you still have the broken parts of the genuine one I gave you as well as the Allmakes stub from Moab you helped me swap? It would be interesting to know the differences in makeup between the two...not that I care anymore :D

Tis

But Sam, the left knuckle steer stop acts as the steering stop for the right side and vise versa. Meaning, that the front is only allowed to steer as much as the stops allow. The extra wipe you are seeing is from the flex of all the components when under stress or heavy steering. Adjusting the front steering stops does exactly the same job that having rear steering stops will do. Having one in front and one in back is redundant.



This is exactly why Im saying we need stops on the back of the knuckle. The stop on the front of the other knuckle does stuff all to limit the amount of turn on the inside wheel. You are right, the extra wipe is from component flexing and from what I have seen this extra flex is very significant. Im talking about an extra 8mm (5/16) of movement at the ball. This is a massive amount of extra lock that the CVs must endure simply because there are no stops on hte back of the knuckles.

What first allerted me to this is the CVs that I made with the ring welded on them shouldnt of deformed the ring with the stock steering stops that I have set. But when I pulled them out the ring was deformed badly (because of incorrect steering stops) and I then realised the extra steering that could occur due to having no stops on the back of the knuckle and the flex of the steering components. And I am talking about a lot of extre flex here.

Having no stops on the back of the knuckles cannot be any good for the CVs and definately no good for longfielded type CVs.

Sam

Having no stops on the back of the knuckles cannot be any good for the CVs and definately no good for longfielded type CVs. Sam

Alright, so how do we go about putting stops on the rear of the knuckles?

Use the pattern/ideas from the fronts and transpose them, or did you have something specific in mind?

Why not just extend the front stops so that you accomodate the 8mm "crunch" you get in the rear..."preventive" binding system...

Why not just extend the front stops so that you accomodate the 8mm "crunch" you get in the rear..."preventive" binding system...

But that will limit overall turning. Having stops on the front and back or even just on the back would be better.

Allright, sorry this really bugs me. If you guys want to think that front and rear bumpstops will stop your cv's from breaking have at it. But the fact of the matter is, that properly set front stops are more than sufficient. And yes yoour turning radius will be reduced, but so will it be with rear stops as well.

Sam if your front stops were set properly from the get go with the welded ring cv, you would not have had the bind BOTTOM LINE!!!!! You simply set them without the flex of the system in mind.

Front back left right, it does not matter in this situation.

Sorry if I am coming off as an ass!!!

Hey KC,

You coming to the batchelor party? I will even give you some ones. Sounds like you need to relax :smokin: :flipoff2:

Not sure yet. Got some urgent crap to deal with here!! Probably wont know untill the last.

SORRY FOR THE HIJACK

It may be a bit hard to read from Sam's post but he has "Wrongfielded" a few AEU2522's now - with good results. I managed to break one of the genuine Toy Longfields driving his buggy while the "Wrongfielded" AEU2522 on the other side held up fine (yes, Sam has a mix-and-match front end in his buggy :D ).

So I'm sure if you ask nicely Sam will Wrongfield some for you and ship them.
Better yet, tell me how I can make my own :)

TomW

Allright, sorry this really bugs me. If you guys want to think that front and rear bumpstops will stop your cv's from breaking have at it. But the fact of the matter is, that properly set front stops are more than sufficient. And yes yoour turning radius will be reduced, but so will it be with rear stops as well.

Sam if your front stops were set properly from the get go with the welded ring cv, you would not have had the bind BOTTOM LINE!!!!! You simply set them without the flex of the system in mind.

Front back left right, it does not matter in this situation.

Sorry if I am coming off as an ass!!!

You are bein an arse :D :flipoff2:
I understand exactly what Sam is trying to say, with a steering stop on the rear of the knuckle you will pretty much eliminate the flex problem with all the steering/track geometry and you will have a firmer feel at the steering wheel during full lock aswell as you wont have the inner wheel trying to turn when its wedged hard up against a rock at full lock. ITS THEN WHEN THE CV GOES BOOM.
I am not sayin a stop on the rear will not stop your cvs from bustin but it will reduce the chance of the extra turning applyin all that extra torque to the outer edges of the CV.
Quiet simple when you THINK ABOUT IT


Sorry if I came off as an arse just then :grinpimp:

Ow and Sam I need some 2522's for the front of my Rangie, would you be able to modify a pair for me............ sorry for the hijack.
I will PM you on outerlimits.

Ok Newb, I'll take it easy on you, cause you seem to know SAM.

And yes your steering would feel better from stop to stop, but that still has no bearing on the fact that all you need are front stops or rear stops. Makes no difference. I am not arguing the fact that front and rear would be great I guess,

But you guys have people scratching their heads on how to put rear stops on their knuckles so they wont break CV's anymore. (yes I know thats a bit of an exageration)

As I said, properly set up front stop will correct for the flex of the opposite side knuckle flex!!! And turning radius will remain almost exactly the same.

So NEWB Think about what you post first.

But you guys have people scratching their heads on how to put rear stops on their knuckles so they wont break CV's anymore. (yes I know thats a bit of an exageration)

:confused:

DUDE you such a fawkin HIPPIE slade!! I love it.

When you feel resistance, you stop pushing the Q-tip in.

Man I've been working too much!
And a nice argument you all have going on here!
To place my experiences with 2522's in summary... They are too small for a tire bigger than 35" After that I figure you are on borrowed time... Steering stops both properly adjusted and extra ones will buy you time... As will longfielding them, I will not Longfield a GKN because the material is wierd and very hard, basically you will make it harder if you don't go to the trouble to draw it back... That would help a GKN not BLOW THE BELL. You can longfiled an Allmakes but you will just twist off the stub shaft. That's what I've seen..
Well and a couple of case where the cage blowed to bits on an allmakes while doing backwards donuts on a wet parking lot.
Heat treat the stub of an Allmakes that has been fielded and you probably have the best you are gonna get... Use the Front Locker wisely..

These still don't compare to those two huge CV's with the bright green foreskins sitting on my work bench :)

As for the strength of the D44 joints in the front of my CJ... They have done okay (only broke 4 shortsides in 10 years) but I have not needed to use the front locker much and I rely on the 60 in the rear to take the heat..

Of course everything except the last two sentences is an opinion..

Keith
www.rovertracks.com

K.C., what's your problem? Post count on Pirate is obviously not a good gauge of the quality of your logic.

Sam makes sense, period. Which doesn't imply that he or anyone else thinks 2522's are perfect and will last forever.

With flex, and everybody seems to agree that there is flex, you will need to sacrifice precious turning radius on flat ground to make sure "the other knuckle" is never over-extended with stops only in front.

I for one will continue to scratch my head. May use som flange bolts to fix something on the back of the knuckle?

Before I get pummled with stones i thought I might mention that driving style, horsepower and terrain all have a bearing on how long your CV's will live...
If you drive 37's on the street and never do diff lock you will probably never replace a CV :)

The Allmakes CV is visibly less refined than the Genuine one. The machining marks are WAY more rough, which might explain why they're snapping off at the drive flange.

Here's a pic.

:flipoff2:

Back to the original question, can they be made better. Most likely, but it will need some actual scientific type testing.

What are the parts made from?
What is the factory hardness of various components?

From that you can look at improvements such as welding a ring on properly and adjusting the hardness to improve shock strength. If you were really interested, why not send a CV to Mr. Long and ask him to look at it, test it and provide comment. If there is a market, he might just start doing Rover CVs...

Can they be made to handle 37s and a crawler box? No, of course not, but that wasn't the question.

I suspect the steering stop argument is mostly related to Long/Wrongfielded CVs as the ring might be fouling at tight turns.

Personally, I've got a whopping 65 ponies on tap and my 2522s look brand new (just pulled out yesterday). See there is a positive to having no power :flipoff2:

:rolleyes: K.C. :shaking:


Red90Rover - 65ponies you and me both thats why I am keeping my little 3.5 :massey:

The Finish is definitly a good part of it but the Allmakes are very soft... Mearly flame hardened.. The GKN's we have tested (thanks Tis) are blindingly hard clear through like 62 Rockwell C, Allmakes are closer to 45-47. That's the difference between Glass and Steel... The Elasicity (?) of the the softer CV will make it last longer under high shock loads but it will wear out sooner, the hardness of the GKN will make it last forever but shatter (like glass) when exposed to high shock loads.. The Trick will be to case harden the shafts of the softer Allmakes and see if the will live... Mike you ready?

We have looked at both types of failure through the microscope (I have a great heat treater!) and you can actually see the difference!

Keith
www.rovertracks.com

keith, have you sampled a great number of the genuines or just a few? Maxi-Drive has seen big variance in quality and even type of heat treatment when buying genuines from same source, they say.

Back to the original question, can they be made better. Most likely, but it will need some actual scientific type testing.

What are the parts made from?
What is the factory hardness of various components?

From that you can look at improvements such as welding a ring on properly and adjusting the hardness to improve shock strength. If you were really interested, why not send a CV to Mr. Long and ask him to look at it, test it and provide comment. If there is a market, he might just start doing Rover CVs...

Can they be made to handle 37s and a crawler box? No, of course not, but that wasn't the question.

I suspect the steering stop argument is mostly related to Long/Wrongfielded CVs as the ring might be fouling at tight turns.

Personally, I've got a whopping 65 ponies on tap and my 2522s look brand new (just pulled out yesterday). See there is a positive to having no power :flipoff2:

Well said John, however I think the steering stop argument relates to all CV's - because at maximum turning angle (for any CV) the CV will tend to bind somewhat, and the balls will try to leave the cage/bell.

:confused:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I love it!

RJ

ALLMAKES CV basic specs

HRC 58-62 Roughly akin to a standard ring and pinion

Material S53C

This is not a guess or an assumption. These specs come directly from the production floor.
All this so called research has been done years ago. If you want burly CV's at this point in time, call GBR and pay up. Bill has done his work, and has hit the wall on Rover CV performance.

If you want to stop breaking, you will need to upgrade to something bigger. So basically, you just need to pick your favorite method of draining your bank account. Slow and steady, or all at once. In my opinion, all at once cost alot less in the long run, and keeps you on the trail when you are at an event half way across your country of origin.

As for the steer stop stuff,, Go ahead and keep living in never never land my friends. And Good luck to you.

Oh, and MIKE did you bite down on that CV with your teeth, to check the HRC.

Oh, and MIKE did you bite down on that CV with your teeth, to check the HRC.

YEP! Chewed it up and spat it out! :flipoff2:

If you want to stop breaking, you will need to upgrade to something bigger. So basically, you just need to pick your favorite method of draining your bank account. Slow and steady, or all at once. In my opinion, all at once cost alot less in the long run, and keeps you on the trail when you are at an event half way across your country of origin.

All of that is true if you are set up with larger enough tires, gearing or engine to be breaking the 2522 easily. Not everyone is at that point nor intents to be. I think this query is more towards people that are just running around the limits of the 2522 and want a cheap easy way to add some more strength. Some of the CB types around here have access to machining, welding and heat treating equipment and would be able to get the work done cheaper than buying new CVs from GBR.

As Sam has shown, the 2522 is basically the same CV as the Toy Birfs other than the larger shafts. People over in Toyland are mostly happy with Longfields. Longfields are reasonably cheap. Maybe this same style of upgrade can be put towards Rover CVs. I realize that this is not enough for some but it is enough for many.

I love it when KC is enigmatic.


:D

RED 90,

your right. Alot of people could be very happy wioht a beefy AUE2522, but, on the other side, I agree that the AEU 2522 looks to be very similar in strength, but it on lies in the cosmetics. there is a major fundamental difference between the toy and theRover CV that makes it very weak.

the AEU2522 should be a decent amount stronger than a toy CV on the inner, and a bit weaker on the outer. But that has not been the case. I have not gotten into the two enough to say what the diff is.

If anybody wants the truth, I will gladly setup the two destructive testing jigs, but I need someone to donate the CV's That way we can know for sure.

the AEU2522 should be a decent amount stronger than a toy CV on the inner, and a bit weaker on the outer. But that has not been the case. I have not gotten into the two enough to say what the diff is.

But is that true on a stock Toy CV versus a stock (genuine) 2522? I am not knowledgable enough on the Toys, but from what I've heard they break at about the same use point. If that is the case, then we might be able to strenghten the 2522s to the same level as the Longfields other than the shaft strength.

A bit OT, but I really believe the Toy guys are just not as bitchy about things breaking. When I lived in Aussyland, one of the harder core guys in our club ran a modified cruiser (75 series). In 12 months he went through 4 axles, 2 gearboxes a t. case and an engine all on 35s.... and he wasn't standing around putting Toys down.

Sam has already proven that a homemade "longfielded" 2522 is as strong or stronger than a genuine longfield. He is running 38's half filled with water, and if you have seen him drive in competitions you will be amazed the CV's don't snap like carrots every time he puts his foot down. I think that one of these "Wrongfielded" 2522's (or similar) would be fine for most people. If you are running 35's without water in the tyres you would probably have a very hard time breaking one.

The only strange thing is that he hasn't broken a shaft, always the bell, but if people are breaking shafts then you can run a toy bell and 30spl outer shaft with the rover star, and inners - just a few spindle mods and a new drive flange.

This is what I believe:

The rover CV and toy cv are very similar in size. I have found that the bell, star, balls and cage are totally interchangable on both cvs (this is on AEU2522s and genuine toy minitruck CVs)

Now the stub on the toy is bigger (30spline 1.31in VS 24 spline 1.25in I think) and the hole in the rover star is also slightly bigger. This means that the rover CV has a weaker stub and a weaker star.

Now so far I have broken 1 stock new AUE2522, 1 wrongfielded AUE2522 (actually broke the stub and the rest was still perfect), 4 wrongfielded toy CVs and 2 genuine longfields. Basically I have broken lots and lots of stuff in the last 2 months and we are getting really good at changing CVs and learning heaps.

The wrongfielded AEU2522 and wrongfielded toy CV Im running now (from my last batch) do seem incredibly strong and much stronger that everything I have run up to this point. Still havnt twisted off any inner axles but have twisted the stock toy axles on the outer splines everytime. Havnt twisted the Jac Mac longside axle at all.

At this point I dont think that it is worth changing to toy CVs in the rover housing. I think a rover CV can be made just as strong as a longfield. I dont think there will be much in them.

I also dont think it is worth going to the hassle of using d44 unijoints. The Toy guys tried this a while ago with their berfield eliminator kits and basically the introduction of the longfield killed the kits off. The strength gains of the D44 joints over the longfields is marginal at best and there are lots of guys who will argue that longfields are stronger.

I believe that my current rover wrongfields are stronger than a stock d44. I mate of mine is running the d44 front axle I used to run and he is breaking plenty of parts without really trying (where Im trying to break parts and breaking plenty) and we got similar weight rigs and I got lots more horse power. Now if you go to alloys and CTM D44 components then it could worth while but that still wont get you top the unbreakable region - for that you really need to go D60.

I think is you guys want stronger CVs then you should get them Longfielded cause it will make them a lot stronger. I carnt see any reason why his techniques wont work on the rover AEU2522 CV. The rover CV does seem to weld a bit differently to the toy CV but the end result seems to be the same You will need rear bumpstops (and I believe you should have rear bumpstops whether you run Longfields or not cause the swivel will flex way beyond what the front stops will allow)

If I was building a front axle again I probably wouldnt bother swapping to the Toy cvs. The only real advantage I see is that the toy stuff is a bit cheaper when you start to break. I can buy a second hand toy CV for $30AUS and I can buy a second hand genuine AEU 2522 for $170AUS.

So whats the go with the GBR CVs?? Who is running them and what are they breaking?? I heard that the CVs have a very small star (same size star as a rover 32 spline CV) with the larger 23 spline hole in them and looked like they wouldnt be very strong.

Sam

So what have we actually figured out here? I guess the Longfields are the best route as long as you don't run more than a 35 or so? All this chatter seemed to just confuse me than help, Mike what do you think, have you learned anything?

Brad

Mike what do you think, have you learned anything?

Maybe that's a question you'd better ask my wife! :flipoff2:

I think the steering stops are more important than people think. On a comp truck or rockcrawler I can see that adding bumpstops might be a good idea. On my CrewC, or mainly a DD I think having them *properly* adjusted is probably enough. I didn't have my steering stops adjusted at all on the CC, and even though I wasn't hitting the throttle hard, having the wheels bound up at full lock and giving the gas was enough to blow it up.

I've got something planned for later this fall/winter perhaps, so we'll see what comes down the pike.

IMO, Longfielding 2522's is just postponing the pain a little bit. If that extra trip or two is worth the $$$ to have them done, then that's up to the individual.

Hey Mike, send me you CC swivels, and I will weld them in a straight liine for you so you will never break again.

PS Most of my CV's have broken in a straight line when I was simply climbing a wall that a D44 clad truck can romp up all day.

Hey Mike, send me you CC swivels, and I will weld them in a straight liine for you so you will never break again.

PS Most of my CV's have broken in a straight line when I was simply climbing a wall that a D44 clad truck can romp up all day.

Don't think I haven't thought of that.

Now, what do you think of this:

D60's, front and back, BUT....with the rear steer axle off of a GMC pickup.

:D

I have heard that the rear steer CV's aren't all that strong, but it would be interesting don'cha think?

:flipoff2:

It would be cheaper to get a real D60 and convert it to rear steer.

I thought you dicided that computers are not the best things in the world?!?!?!?

I found a guy selling an old municipal dump truck. I'm sure it has enough beef for that heavy as pig you drive slade. Then you can beat on the CC like its the series 1. Jsut watch out for the old festivas. The square back of those things can be hell on you back as you run over them.

Oh and mike I can make you some cardboard mock ups of the aeu2522 for about $5.00 each. At that price you can afford to break them.

Albuquerque is still callin you man!!!!

I found a guy selling an old municipal dump truck. I'm sure it has enough beef for that heavy as pig you drive slade. Then you can beat on the CC like its the series 1. Jsut watch out for the old festivas. The square back of those things can be hell on you back as you run over them.

Oh and mike I can make you some cardboard mock ups of the aeu2522 for about $5.00 each. At that price you can afford to break them.

Albuquerque is still callin you man!!!!

Cardboard mock-ups RULE! :grinpimp: But, I've graduated to foam-core. A bit sexier and a lot stronger.

Albuquerque is calling me, I hear it...but SLC is also calling me. I have a new gig I'm starting on Monday up there, and I'm scramblin' to get my shiat together before tomorrow (when I leave). (read: my PBB time will be much less). :(

We'll keep the kids/wife in Vegas through the summer, but I'm moving up this weekend.

Wish me luck.

:flipoff2:

PS Most of my CV's have broken in a straight line when I was simply climbing a wall that a D44 clad truck can romp up all day.

In this case your CV was probably already broken and it just fell off when you tried to climb the wall.

We all know that CVs are strongest in a straight line and it is when they are turning that they are weakest and the damage is done. This is when you have to look after your CVs.

And I have broken enough stock D44 bits to know that a D44 isnt the solution to the problem. U joints work best when you can look at them everyday to see if they are failing (like caps working out or spinning). If you hide a U joint inside a swivel ball it will break just like a CV in a straight line - the thing will fall apart.

Sam

Dissention in the ranks and I am not at the helm. What has happened? I apoligize I must be slipping.

Sam can you post a pic of one of your wrongfielded CV'S? I might like to try some with my new 36" Simex Extreme Trekkers. Do you tig the collar on.

JP

Sam, Does the ringed CV fit through the hole in the swivel casing, or do you need to pull the swivel bearings to get it in and out?? Having mine out the other day, there didn't seem like much clearance from the CV outside to the hole in the swivel casing.

What we are doing is very similar to a Longfield. The ring is welded to the end on the CV using a MIG welder. Basically my theory is that Longfield has been welding the rings on for very little money so I figger he isnt doing much to the CVs. All we are doing is heating the CV in an over for a certain time and temperature, welding the ring on and then put them back in the oven and cool them down over a certain time. My guess is that this is all that Longfield is doing cause he is doing them so cheaply.

For you guys in the US I would get longfield to do them and then put the extra steering stops in.

Heres a pic of what ours look like.

Sam

This is the CV that I put in after I broke the brand new AUE2522 (it was brand new except for 2 days and I didnt really give it much of a hard time). This CV lasted over 2 months and probably 5 hard wheeling trips. I pulled it out to have a look at it and noticed the welded ring was all bent because I didnt have any rear steering stops and the weld was cracking. So I put in the rear stops and reheated it and rewelded the ring back on after I flogged it straight. I then broke this CV last weekend by twisting the outer stub off. The bell,star and cage were still intact.

Sam

What we are doing is very similar to a Longfield. The ring is welded to the end on the CV using a MIG welder. Basically my theory is that Longfield has been welding the rings on for very little money so I figger he isnt doing much to the CVs. All we are doing is heating the CV in an over for a certain time and temperature, welding the ring on and then put them back in the oven and cool them down over a certain time. My guess is that this is all that Longfield is doing cause he is doing them so cheaply.

For you guys in the US I would get longfield to do them and then put the extra steering stops in.

Heres a pic of what ours look like.

Sam

Sam do you put a bolt in the end of the CV to strengthen the stub shaft? I have spoken to ex-spurts that point to the threaded hole as a weakness in the CV.

Is shattering a bell ball like getting racked in your rig?
JP

All the twisted off stub shafts have been past the hole... Pretty strange

Sam, I can break a brand new CV with zero miles, in a straight line. It is not a case of broken CV, with to much gas put to it. And no, I am not exagerating.

Ohh, and when did I ever say anything about stockk D44 parts. The stock parts are extremely weak compared to custom alloys. I have broekn plenty of stock parts on plenty of trucks. thats why you upgrade. My D44 clad Bronco runs Warn alloys, has 3 times the power of my rover, and run's 5.13:1 gears. I have nto yet broken the warn alloys with all my rompin. Next time you try D44 parts, try some custom alloys, cause the stock stuff is like pot metel.

Oh, and Pendy, a bolt will do very littel for you on the stub. The stub breaks at the base of the threads, which just happens to be the end of the spline contact with the drive flange. So, basically, if you break a shaft at the spliines, its going to be just outside of the side gear or drive flange. And the manufacturers figured that this was also a good place to stop drilling and tapping. This made that spot much weaker. You would likely be better of taking the cv to a machine shop, and having the drilled and tapped hole expanded to the major of the threads, and drilled about 2" past the original hole depth. This will decrease breakage of the stub a fair amount.

ALLMAKES CV basic specs
Material S53C

Wow, that's just plain old high carbon steel. No wonder the bling aftermarket inner shafts can hold up. Wouldn't take much effort to improve on that. Certainly not the greatest choice for shock loading. I don't see why it would not be simple enough to quench and temper so as to make the bell softer and the stub shaft harder.

Ohh, and when did I ever say anything about stockk D44 parts. The stock parts are extremely weak compared to custom alloys. I have broekn plenty of stock parts on plenty of trucks. thats why you upgrade. My D44 clad Bronco runs Warn alloys, has 3 times the power of my rover, and run's 5.13:1 gears. I have nto yet broken the warn alloys with all my rompin. Next time you try D44 parts, try some custom alloys, cause the stock stuff is like pot metel.



Yes - agreed. I said previously "Now if you go to alloys and CTM D44 components then it could worth while but that still wont get you to the unbreakable region - for that you really need to go D60."

I think you need to realise that birfield eliminator kits using d44 components for toys have been around for a lond time and the Longfield basically killed them off. There is a reason for this. A Longfield CV is supprisingly strong.

Sam

Sam do you put a bolt in the end of the CV to strengthen the stub shaft? I have spoken to ex-spurts that point to the threaded hole as a weakness in the CV.
JP

Drilled axles are actually stronger (in FF applications) than solid axles, so I doubt the threaded end would have much of an effect.

Wow, that's just plain old high carbon steel. No wonder the bling aftermarket inner shafts can hold up. Wouldn't take much effort to improve on that. Certainly not the greatest choice for shock loading. I don't see why it would not be simple enough to quench and temper so as to make the bell softer and the stub shaft harder.

Yes but the genuine 2522's seem to be made from a better material.

I don't fully understand the argument about tempering/annealing CV'S as a way to increase their life. A softer CV will break at a lower load than a harder CV - even though the softer CV will be able to withstand more plastic deformation before failure (but is that a good thing - if the bell warps and the balls can float around).

Wouldn't the best thing be to make a very hard CV that can withstand a lot of elastic deformation - like spring steel... then it should return to it's previous shape after shock loading.

Drilled axles are actually stronger (in FF applications) than solid axles, so I doubt the threaded end would have much of an effect.

mmmmmm - fairly certain drilled axles are weaker. They drill them to save weight.

Sam

Wouldn't the best thing be to make a very hard CV that can withstand a lot of elastic deformation - like spring steel... then it should return to it's previous shape after shock loading.

Not necessarily because something that is very hard doesent handle cracks very well. This is part of the problem with the AEU 2522s. They are so hard that when cracks start to develop they propogate all the way through the CV and it falls apart. This is why they break on some of the easiest obstacles - its because they have cracks in them.

By welding the ring on to the end you strengthing the bell, it also stops the balls falling out the end of the cage on full lock so lessons the loads on the cage. And by the preheat treatment before the welding you anneal the steel a little bit and loose a bit of its hardness for a bit of an increase in toughness. What you end up with is a CV that can handle shock loads without cracking and because they dont crack the remain strong over the long term. Now the trade off is that the CV are more easily deformed and are thus more prone to clicking when turning. Its interesting that even though they may start to click that they are still very stong because they dont have any cracks in them. None of my wrongfielded AEU2522s have started to click although some of my wrongfielded toy cv have clicked.

Thats my theory anyway.

Sam

drilled axles are stronger than solid axles. from GBR web site

"We can also supply these axles "gun bored"**. This is a process where a hole is bored down the center of the axle. There are two advantages to this, first the axle is lighter reducing the unsprung weight of the axle components, which is not particularly an advantage in a four wheel drive and secondly the axle is significantly stronger. This may seem like a contradiction, removing some of the axle mass and ending up with a stronger axle! The concept is that the axle now has 2 surface areas that need to break for a failure to occur. The best way to illustrate this is by an example that everyone is familiar with - a hollow tube drive shaft is stronger than a solid one!"

Drew

Ben,

There is also an increase in impact strength with lower hardness generally. It does, however depend somewhat on materials. If they are only using a high carbon steel, some tempering to remove some of the brittle martensite AND to remove residual stress will go a long way to increasing impact strength and even ultimate strength. That is why it is important understand what they are made from, the hardness and grain structure. If, in the factory, they are only slightly tempered, they may be (probably are) leaving them in a condition prone to impact damage. The factory may mostly be concerned with hardness in order to maximize wear life.

As I say, it depends on materials. Some materials can be made hard while having high impact strength. High carbon steel is NOT one of them. If you were making these things and actually cared, you would probably Q&T the whole assembly to a maximum impact strength state, then surface harden the contact surfaces. Since this costs money, I doubt they do it. They probably just Q&T with a very minimal temper.

If starting from scratch. you would choose a much better base material. I assume that is what GBR has done with it's all new super secret CV.

Another thing to consider is factory QC. Leaving a high carbon steel this hard leaves you really prone to microcracking during the quench. You really must be careful and should be doing individual testing. I doubt this happens which probably lead to a large variation in impact strength throughout production. I'm sure that all they normally test for is hardness.

drilled axles are stronger than solid axles. from GBR web site

"We can also supply these axles "gun bored"**. This is a process where a hole is bored down the center of the axle. There are two advantages to this, first the axle is lighter reducing the unsprung weight of the axle components, which is not particularly an advantage in a four wheel drive and secondly the axle is significantly stronger. This may seem like a contradiction, removing some of the axle mass and ending up with a stronger axle! The concept is that the axle now has 2 surface areas that need to break for a failure to occur. The best way to illustrate this is by an example that everyone is familiar with - a hollow tube drive shaft is stronger than a solid one!"

Drew

Its interesting that they say this. This has been thrashed out before here

axle thread (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15671&highlight=gun+drilled)

and basically all the "gurus" here agree that hollow shafts are definately weaker than solid ones.

Sam

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-BV60/proof.html

Once upon a time drilling a hole on the center of a shaft would increase the fatigue strength by removing material that contained defects. Those defects often resulted from oxidation when the steel was solidifying.

Steelmaking and de-oxidation methods have improved since.

Removing perfectly sound material by gun drilling will result in reduced strength. For a circular shaft torsional stress is zero at the centre and maximum at the outer surface and little torque is transmitted my the material at the center.

I'm surprised at Isuzurover making statements like it being stronger.

I think those statements attributing increased strength due to 2 surface areas that need to break for a failure to occur is just someones conjecture. It sounds plain wrong to me and I can't recall anything like this from any engineering or metalurgy texts that I have used.

The hollow tech has been used in many other applications in the bike world and is proven to be stronger, but I'm not positive as to what type of force it's better with. Most of the applications I've seen are for a twisting force.

P.S. This has been a fascinating thread to read.

Have a look at any series drag race car ... Top fuel, funny cars, pro stock..
The guys typically haveto add weight to be legal on the track, so the idea is not to save weight. Basically to break a shaft you need to only break the surface to get weakened enough to continue... With a hollow shaft you have two surfaces to break, while one is a bit smaller it's not twice as strong but in theory two surfaces of the same diameter are twice as strong as one surface... The gun drilling of shafting is for torsional strength, all the high impact high load shafts we use in industry are hollow not for weight but for strength...

I have yet to see a CV that broke in teh threaded hole... I'd like to see that, All of them I've seen break on the shaft have been beyond that... Closer to the joint....

Heck if we get the CV's much stronger the front Diff is gonna blow any way...

i too was interested in the hollow vs. solid shafts a couple months ago and started by asking my materials professor first:
-his response was that hollow is not stronger unless the OD is different and the same mass is used. (straight out of any textbook)
-then i searched pirate and came up with a decent answer to why gun drilling is used. if its drilled and then treated more of the material is actually recieves treatment. instead of one shell of treatment around the outside of the shaft you now have one on the inside too, thus treating more of cross-section. this may be why gbr claims 2 surfaces to break, but it seems like more of a treated cross-section to break.

sorry for the hi jack of th CV thread, and the regurgitation of other hearsay.

web-wheelin voice off and im out.
brandon

I give up. If any of you fawkers want to believe that hollow is stronger then get out then drill and and start drilling them 10 spliners - you might even put maxidrive out of buisness. :flipoff2:

And if you believe it so badly then go revive that axle thread in general tech again and teach everybody else how you can make axles stronger by drilling holes in them. :laughing:

Sam

I give up. If any of you fawkers want to believe that hollow is stronger then get out then drill and and start drilling them 10 spliners - you might even put maxidrive out of buisness. :flipoff2:

And if you believe it so badly then go revive that axle thread in general tech again and teach everybody else how you can make axles stronger by drilling holes in them. :laughing:

Sam

I have very good luck drilling a hole through my axle. Then I use a bolt as a shear pin in the flange. The shear pin always breaks before the axle or R&P. It is an idea I got from my snapper riding lawnmower. Maybe I WILL put maxipad out of buisiness.

Refer to my signature line referance KC chit talk.

Wrongfield seems so right to me. JP

The hollow tech has been used in many other applications in the bike world and is proven to be stronger, but I'm not positive as to what type of force it's better with. Most of the applications I've seen are for a twisting force.

P.S. This has been a fascinating thread to read.

Bike world? As in bicycles?

Hell, even Major Taylor won a world championship on a bike built with tubes. And as far as newer components being manufactured hollow instead of forged solid, you need to take it into context...no solid forged component has been replaced by a hollow component of the same outer dimensions. NONE! The hollow component has increased in outer dimensions, naturally increasing torsional stiffness, and the component is then lightened by the degree and location of where it's hollow, in addition to the improved alloys that are being used. Furthermore, most of these components are not round, or not a consistent in external diameter, and are geometrically designed to maximize the ability to resist torsion.

Examples:

Cranksets
Stems

Neither of these are (forged) round, nor are the hollow versions even close to the same outer dimensions as their solid versions.

You may argue bottom brackets, such as the hollow, splined BB produced by Shimano compared to the traditional square taper design. Yeah, they are both round. But the hollow splined BB has such a greater overall diameter than the traditional BB, the argument returns to comparing apples to oranges.

PS: you give me an example where a hollow bicycle component is better than it's solid counterpart, and I'll tell you specifically why it does not apply to this argument.

PSS: the answers will entail: the components you are comparing are not round; the components you are comparing are not the same external dimensions; the components are are comparing are not made from the same alloy.

Gotta go wiht sam and the others on this one guys. I have still yet to see any proof that simply drilling a hole through a shaft will increase strength. The only reason I said to do it on the ALL makes CV was to reduce the stress risers at the bolt hole base.

Oh, and Revor, I have about 4-5 cv's broken right at the base of the bolt hole.

The idea is to gun drill the shaft, THEN heat treat it- two surface areas are being treated, so the process will have a better affect on the strength of the shaft.

[QUOTE=Bush65]
I'm surprised at Isuzurover making statements like it being stronger.
QUOTE]

Okay I stuffed up :flipoff2: - I was mislead by the stuff on GBR's website I read ages ago. Sounded a bit weird but I believed them. I just checked through all the other sites that make gun drilled axles (moser, etc) and NONE of them mention increased strength, just reduced weight. Should have checked my text books - Eric Ruhl's proof was very well done.

The idea is to gun drill the shaft, THEN heat treat it- two surface areas are being treated, so the process will have a better affect on the strength of the shaft.
Still wrong - the stress on the inner surface is very small and so it doesent matter if that surface is hard or not. Its the outer surface where the maximum stress is.

Sam

Sam, does longfielding a cv effect the ability to have its original degree of angularity achived. can you still have your original turning circle. i know most guys looking at these will be running larger tyres and most probably reduced steering lock but if still on 32's? how would they fare on a daliy drive with regards to normal ware.
with regards to the steering stop debate, imo, which is pretty basic, i'm a carpenter. if stock, when your wheels are at full lock only one is aganist the stop. you have two tyres, two points of leverage to act on this one stop, puting them on the back, wouldn't that double your resistance to flex????????

cheers, Serg :confused:

Nope - it still turnes as sharp as a stock rangie setup (thats assuming that my stops were still set to stock)

Sam