302 to 351

[tsmall07]

so i've heard the the only difference between a 302 and a 351 is the heads and of course the computer if it has one. my question is do you have to change anything else like the stroke? is it just a bolt on application? also i've heard that a 460 gets better gas mileage than a 351. does anyone have any experience with this?
thanks

[TurdBronco]

No, the 460 will not get better gas mileage and no, the only difference between 302's and 351's arent the heads. The heads are interchangeable for the most part with the right head bolts. The 351 block is taller, intake is wider.

[Hoxviii]

The 351 has more stroke and as a result has a greater deck height. The easiest way to tell them apart from the outside is to look at the water pump. Where it bolts to the block, the head for a 302 is only about 1/8" away from the water pump. The head on a 351 is 2-3" away from the water pump. The 351W is 4" wider than a 302. You cannot make a 302 into a 351. You can take it out to a 348, but it involves expensive parts that unless you have SERIOUS space constraints aren't worth it. AND a 460 CAN get better mileage than a 351W. depends on gearing. A 351 really needs about 3.5's to make a truck move like a truck. with a 460 properly built you could run 2.75's or 3.0's and still have the truck move like a truck should.

What exactly are you trying to do/figure out?

Justin

[Jrod-13]

351 is 1" taller, and 3/4" wider on each side.
the stock motor mounts and tranny will work. The exhuast and oil pan does not.

If your asking about swapping a 351 inplace of your 302, the electrical could/would be the largest issue. later 302 truck motors went to MAF, I believe 96' was the first year for it. If it is MAF, it will make it alot easier. The real issue is if your truck is SEFI or batch fire(I'm not sure if the trucks ever changed) If it's batch fire, then bolt it in. If its SEFI, you will need to either put in a 302 cam, or change the injector harness to the 351 firing order.

[Stoked]

if there is anydoubt that you wouldnt be happy with the 351, i say go 460, i wish i did when i did away with my 302. now im just waiting for the 351 to blowup so i can go bigblock.

[TurdBronco]

I can't wait to get back into a small block. Depends on rig size also.

A 71 460 wasnt a good choice for a trail motor.

[tsmall07]

at this point i'm looking at turning my 1996 f150 into a tow rig the best way possible. i want to lift it 2 inches with 33's and have very stiff leaf springs in the back. i was thinking 4.10 gears. this summer i'm planning on buying a '78 'burban for a trail rig so i'll need a pretty good towing copasity. would i have to get a new transmition if i got a 460? would it work to just pull one out of an f250 with the computer and everything and just replace everything?

i guess i've just been told wrong before :mad3: , i've always heard that you can make a 302 into a 351 and i got really excited about that but i guess not if its as different as you say
thanks for the help
-tyler

[ImNotRight]

Back up. Stop right there.. don't go trying to make your f150 into a tow rig for a big old heavy assed burb.. Theres way more to towing than having enough power to get the load moving.

Your best bet is to either get a lot smaller and lighter trail rig, (think bronco 2 or explorer), or don't buy your sub and wait untill after you have a truck able to safely tow it. At least a 3/4 ton.

[Hoxviii]

do a rear disc conversion, run ceramic or semi metallic pads all around, overload springs, and run trailer brakes and that 150'll tow (and stop) a burb all day long.

::BUT:: to tow a burb you'll really want a 5th wheel.

Justin

[Grandpa Jeep]

Back up. Stop right there.. don't go trying to make your f150 into a tow rig for a big old heavy assed burb.. Theres way more to towing than having enough power to get the load moving.

Your best bet is to either get a lot smaller and lighter trail rig, (think bronco 2 or explorer), or don't buy your sub and wait untill after you have a truck able to safely tow it. At least a 3/4 ton.

I agree entirely, you'd be money ahead to trade your F-150 in on a 460 or diesel powered F-250 or F-350.

[tsmall07]

i would love to trade my truck in for an f250 but the truck is more my parents' than mine right now and they want me to stick with what i got. also i can really make mine into an f250 because they are the same truck with different components. if i get heavier duty stuff then it'll still work the same way. i don't have the luxury of changing vehicles so that's the only option i have. with a tranny cooler, a more powerful engine, trailer breaks, and better gears i should be good to go. i just need to know if my transmission will be able to hold up to a 460 or not, or if i should go with a 351.

also, i've worked as an install guy at a truck accessories store/trailer dealer so i have a good idea about what it takes to tow something and what is a bad idea.

i know that pretty much everyone on this site knows more than me but i do know some things.
the 5th wheel is a good idea that i hadn't thought of yet thanks

[tsmall07]

also i'm gettin the suburban with a 400 short block, a t400 tranny, and an np203 tcase for $700 so i think thats a pretty good deal :grinpimp:

[Stoked]

i would love to trade my truck in for an f250 but the truck is more my parents' than mine right now and they want me to stick with what i got. also i can really make mine into an f250 because they are the same truck with different components. if i get heavier duty stuff then it'll still work the same way. i don't have the luxury of changing vehicles so that's the only option i have. with a tranny cooler, a more powerful engine, trailer breaks, and better gears i should be good to go. i just need to know if my transmission will be able to hold up to a 460 or not, or if i should go with a 351.

also, i've worked as an install guy at a truck accessories store/trailer dealer so i have a good idea about what it takes to tow something and what is a bad idea.

i know that pretty much everyone on this site knows more than me but i do know some things.
the 5th wheel is a good idea that i hadn't thought of yet thanks

id be more worried about the rear axle, that tinky little 8.8 will not like that kindof abuse for long, if there is no other option, i would swap in a sterling 10.25 for the rear axle, then use mid/late 70s chevy 3/4ton spindle-out parts to convert the front to 8-lug also, as for the transmission, if you plan on towing alot, you should have it built for it, but at the least get the biggest tranny cooler for it you can find. im also wondering how well the frame is going to take this kindof stress also. that might be a concern. a 7000# burban is not a easy thing to be haulin

[ImNotRight]

Well in all honesty, if you can't upgrade your tow rig, I'd be downgrading your trail rig..

That sub might be 5 or 6 k empty, but what happens when you get back from the trail, have almost literally a ton of mud on it, packed up with campin gear, passenger or two, and spare parts? I wouldn't doubt if your trailer with the rig on it could easily exceed 10k..

But hell, more power to ya if you get this to work.

BTW, no, for a 460, you'll need a different transmission. Is has a different bellhousing pattern.

You could probably get a 351 to work. I'd think about doing a 393 job to it. Fairly cheap, uses an aftermarket crank to get more stroke, stock 351W rods, and 302 pistons. Put on decent heads (don't have to go gonzo here, but the more you spend on them the better off you'd be) and it'll be a torque monster. Probably will still struggle a lot in mountains but it'd probably do good otherwise.

[tsmall07]

i'm also planning on hackin the entire roof off and cutting the middle seats out to make it a shorter wheel base will probibly bob it some too so thats a lot of weight right there
i still have a lot to consider though

[green-bronco]

#1 8.8 would be gone in one trip if that
#2 8.8 wont take the weight of a loaded trailer3
#3 Trans would prolly burn up and break with out a cooler, even with a cooler it wont take the abuse.

[tsmall07]

i guess i should have mentioned earlier that i'm planning on swapping the rear to a ff 14b or a sterling 10.25 also i'm more than willing to change the tranny too but i don't know any good manual ones i have to have a manual so if anyone has any ideas on that let me know

[Jrod-13]

well there isn't really any bad manuals that will bolt to a 460.. T-19/NP-435 if your cheap, ZF if you want overdrive..

[Grandpa Jeep]

Are your parents going to let you do all that to your/their truck? Will they let you buy a second truck? Maybe you ought to try and find an older 3/4 ton or 1 ton truck to use as a tow rig. It wouldn't even have to be 4WD and gas mileage wouldn't be as much of a factor since you'd still have your F-150 for a DD.

Not sure how you plan on financing all this, but it appears that you are a student. At the risk of sounding like a responsible adult, You really should concentrate on finishing school rather than drastic projects such as these. Once you graduate, and get yourself a job, you can build to your hearts content. Just don't get married right away or you'll never get your projects built.;)

[tsmall07]

my parents won't know what i'm doin to the truck there isn't any point in telling them because they don't know anything about it anyway
of course all this does depend on how much money i make and i'm not plannin on doin it all at once. i have a really good paying job lined up and i'm not goin to waste all my money sinse i do have school. i jsut feel like its a good idea to have a plan of what you want to do so that you can start deciding when its goin to be possible.
i definately have a better idea of what i need to do now
and by the way my truck now only gets 13 miles to the gallon so its not much of a gas saving dd :shaking:

[bobbywalter]

The 351 has more stroke and as a result has a greater deck height. The easiest way to tell them apart from the outside is to look at the water pump. Where it bolts to the block, the head for a 302 is only about 1/8" away from the water pump. The head on a 351 is 2-3" away from the water pump. The 351W is 4" wider than a 302. You cannot make a 302 into a 351. You can take it out to a 348, but it involves expensive parts that unless you have SERIOUS space constraints aren't worth it. AND a 460 CAN get better mileage than a 351W. depends on gearing. A 351 really needs about 3.5's to make a truck move like a truck. with a 460 properly built you could run 2.75's or 3.0's and still have the truck move like a truck should.

What exactly are you trying to do/figure out?

Justin

you can make it a 353. and its costly....



but you are really beating your head against the wall.

get a 2wd powerstroke, they are reasonable now...97 down anyway.

if you get a van or a 3/4ton you will have all the power your lil heart desires, the capacity to tow...and 16-22 mpg if you take it easy going to school and work......

[tsmall07]

i reiterate
if i had the ability to buy a new truck i would but i have to keep what i have
please read the whole post before responding :shaking:

[ImNotRight]

Easy there. We're just tryin to talk some sense into ya. An F150 will not make a good tow rig period[for a vehicle of the size you'r looking to tow]. If the only thing seperating an f150 from an f350 was the rear end and engine, it might have made a good plan.. but theres much larger differences. Once you go starting to mix and match shit up like that, you can pretty much kiss the "reliable" days of your tow rig away.. Trust us, many of us have been there where you are now. Your just gunna end up with a really expensive always broke down joke of a tow truck and a hacked up burb you can't drive anywhere. To put it bluntly.

why not make your f150 the wheeler? SAS in the front and they do pretty good! Just keep it a bit more sane. Keep the engine stock, and try not to bounce it off of trees and you'd be frustration ahead.

[tsmall07]

my truck is in really good condition, and the burbon i'm gonna but has a crappy body. i don't want to fuck up my truck, and i know this isn't a very good solution but its really the only one i have.......

[bobbywalter]

i reiterate
if i had the ability to buy a new truck i would but i have to keep what i have
please read the whole post before responding :shaking:


i read it all before i posted.....and just re read it twice.


and its simple.

ditch the 150 and get a psd two wheeler van or truck.

if you cant do that cause of the limitations of ownership you stated then the radical and costly mods your thinking of are out of the question. only an asshole would tear up something thats not thiers..

and it would be very irresponsible to abuse the truck towing with the stated limitations of ownership anyway...


but, even with the same limitations of ownership, a 250 or 350 truck or van would accomplish the task your in need of and it would not be abusing it to tow the trail rig around..




i guess what i am gettin at here is for you to explain this situation to, and politely ask your folks to swap out the 150 for another rig. this may not be as bad as you think.

i can tell ya, if you get a 96 or so psd van with 100-150 k on it for @6-8000 and run it empty for school and work the offset in fuel will cover the payment if your runnin 2-4000 miles a month.

so i think it is unreasonable to not consider it over all the things listed above...

[Jrod-13]

Not to mention any diesel rig will get better mileage than a 302... You say your getting 12mpg with it now, start adding weight to it, and that figure will drop fast.. If you can't get 16-18 with a diesel, something is wrong.. Not to mention for the price a clean 96' would bring, you could get a late 80's early 90's 1 ton diesel 4x4..

[tsmall07]

alright, so the deal is, its my truck (i'm paying for it) but its in my parent's name and they pay the insurance...i've tried asking for a 250 before and it was a no go but i guess what i need to do is give it another go. i'm not talkin about towin it cross country or somethin, just kinda across town to the trails. but then i might want to take it a long way later. i don't know. i'll figure somethin out.

[ImNotRight]

Well.. Guess your best bet in to get a good trailer. 2 axle brakes. I wouldn't worry so much about the engine then. If it's an auto you'll probably melt it down eventually.. Get a big ass trans cooler, and stay out of OD. I'd probably stick on the safe side, get the sub weighed and see where its at after you got it packed and ready to go, if at all possible..

The 8.8 will probably be fine untill you start towing long distances. Just throw some synthetic oil in there. Spend your excess on money on top-of-the-line brakes for the truck.. And good tires. I'd leave the rest of the drivetrain stock.

And like has been said before, wether you understand it or not, this is going to beat the living hell out of your 150.. I still personally think your going to waste a lot of money doing this, even without engine and rear end changes, and your going to kick yourself when you figure this out on your own.

EDIT: forgot to mention, do you know what your gear ratio is right now? If it's 373's (i doubt) then leave em, but if you have 3.55's or less.. I'd regear to 4.10's.

[Stoked]

i think weight of the suberban will be a big factor of course, if you get the halfton version its going to weigh less, just for comparison though, my bronco with the stock axles/32"s/351w/AOD and magnizium(SP) BW1356 T-case, already weighs a good 5K (cannot remember the exact number) then factor in the extra frame and body, along with 3/4 ton axles and the boat ancor(SP again) np205 t-case.

[tsmall07]

i do have 373's but i have been looking around at prices of f250's to try to work that out...i guess thats what i got to do