Well, if Warn does not warranty their axels in the event of a u-joint failure, then what happens when the CTM joints prevents ujoint failure and their shafts start snapping or shearing first? Does this mean that if you have CTM's and they do not fail, then everytime the axle goes first, then you can send them back to warn and have them replaced for free...interesting thought huh? Then the price for CTM's looks pretty good to me...
Eric

Breakin shiat is part of wheelin. From what i understand the JOINTS are lifetime warranty. The joints are worth it. If warns aren't lifetime no excuses then maybe you should have jack fab you up some unbreakable axles. OH JACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the good part is that the ctms are tougher than the axle so they should hold up when you snap a axle.

You see, thats my point, if these ujoints will not break first, and the axle goes first, then my question is....will Warn replace the broken axle under their current warranty. As I read their warranty, it now states that they will replace axles if they fail because of manufacturer problems, however they will not replace them in the case of ujoint failure. Because the ujoint will not fail now, could you claim that the shaft was bad since it is now the part that will fail?
Eric

Lance should be able to answer that question:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?postid=242464

interesting....

i believe that warn will only warranty their axles if they have defects or if they have twisted at the splines, not if there is damage to the ears/yoke area.....hth

was that a shaft failure or a ball joint failure? which came first the chicken or the egg?

Easy

Originally posted by Rock Toy
Lance should be able to answer that question:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?postid=242464


DAYUM!!!!!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:


And that's a Warn D44 shaft, right?? GAWD DAYUM!!!!! I can't beleive that u-JOINT IS STILL ALIVE!!!! :eek: :smokin: :nuke:

Ok that U-Joint is still alive, but is it OK to use.

If I fractured, but didn't break, my leg I still wouldn't jump around on it.:eek: (is that a good analogy)

Sweet pic though, just found my new wallpaper:beer: :beer:

Originally posted by eg68
You see, thats my point, if these ujoints will not break first, and the axle goes first, then my question is....will Warn replace the broken axle under their current warranty. As I read their warranty, it now states that they will replace axles if they fail because of manufacturer problems, however they will not replace them in the case of ujoint failure. Because the ujoint will not fail now, could you claim that the shaft was bad since it is now the part that will fail?
Eric

The point there is "MANUFACTURE DEFECT" as in, casting flaws, or some shit like that. I'm sure you would have to SHIP the axleshaft to WARN, then have them determin if it was a Manufacture defect, if not you're out the shipping cost and STILL have to buy a new axleshaft anyway.

I'm willing to bet 99% of the time the break "WOULD NOT BE CAUSED BY MANUFACTURE DEFECT" , but by some other nonspecific flaw in installation or some bullshit!

It's almost a NO-WIN situation.

I'm going to throw a controversial thought out there.....

We're always going on about who will warranty what, and we all know that the warranty is to protect the consumer from MANUFACTURING DEFECT, not from use, misuse, abuse, or wear out insurance...even if it's a lifetime warranty....that just means you have the lifetime to discover the DEFECT not a lifetime to use / abuse a part and they'll always replace it. A lifetime warranty doesn't mean lifetime free replacements.

And before you all jump all over me, think of it from the companies point of view....

Heck - when someone posts about having there stuff stolen, we all leap in with "yea, thieves are scum, string them up". Exactly how is planning or attempting to defraud a company any different?

I'm not judging or condemning anyone, just asking an honest ethical question? How is it different for you? Is it just a "big faceless corporation" thing?

Originally posted by BillaVista
I'm going to throw a controversial thought out there.....

We're always going on about who will warranty what, and we all know that the warranty is to protect the consumer from MANUFACTURING DEFECT, not from use, misuse, abuse, or wear out insurance...even if it's a lifetime warranty....that just means you have the lifetime to discover the DEFECT not a lifetime to use / abuse a part and they'll always replace it. A lifetime warranty doesn't mean lifetime free replacements.

And before you all jump all over me, think of it from the companies point of view....

Heck - when someone posts about having there stuff stolen, we all leap in with "yea, thieves are scum, string them up". Exactly how is planning or attempting to defraud a company any different?

I'm not judging or condemning anyone, just asking an honest ethical question? How is it different for you? Is it just a "big faceless corporation" thing?

Well, I dissagre[did u see that coming?:D] I think a 1 year warrenty will find MANUFACTURING DEFECTS, so a lifetime warranty is like buying insurance. I mean Kragen/autozone ect sell brakes with a lifetime warrenty, and we all know they won't last a lifetime.....ok your turn:D

Originally posted by EasyXJ
was that a shaft failure or a ball joint failure? which came first the chicken or the egg?

Easy
Also a good question in my tiny mind :rasta:
If the U-Joint had let go would the axle and stub have lived ?????
It looks like the U-Joint (cheap easy fix)
Destroyed both inner and outer axles .

Originally posted by Underdog

Also a good question in my tiny mind :rasta:
If the U-Joint had let go would the axle and stub have lived ?????
It looks like the U-Joint (cheap easy fix)
Destroyed both inner and outer axles .
Usally the u-joint breaking causes the same damage:(

Originally posted by SeaBass44


Well, I dissagre[did u see that coming?:D] I think a 1 year warrenty will find MANUFACTURING DEFECTS, so a lifetime warranty is like buying insurance. I mean Kragen/autozone ect sell brakes with a lifetime warrenty, and we all know they won't last a lifetime.....ok your turn:D

I think the thing that most people forget is that it is a LIMITED Lifetime Warranty. It is not a permission slip to purposely try and break them so you can get new ones.

I've had to deal with Warn 2 times with Dana 30 upgrade shafts. The first was 3 or so years ago when my brother in law blew the u-joint and expanded the ears outward and twisted the splines. He had wheeled on them for about an hour. Warn advertised that the ears would not deform if the u-joint broke. Well, to get the axle out we had to grind the ear to beat it out of the knuckle. Warn asked about the motor and tire sizes. When I said 401 and 35's they said he really needed a 60, but we sent the shaft back and got a new one.
The second time was 2 years ago when I broke mine. The u-joint broke took out the ears and the splines were twisted. I sent it back to Warn. They again asked motor and tire info, said need 60, but sent new shaft due to splines. They said that they will warranty but if I kept breaking them they would eventually say enough is enough.
Both times I had to argue the warranty issue with them.
I do agree that if you play hard things are going to break but.... don't say that your product will withstand something then if it doesn't try to back out. That's false advertising. The warranty is the reason I paid the extra money for Warns over the Superiors. I agree with Seabass, don't use the term lifetime if you don't mean it.

Originally posted by Tommy
That's false advertising. The warranty is the reason I paid the extra money for Warns over the Superiors. I agree with Seabass, don't use the term lifetime if you don't mean it.

YES, if they are a limited warrenty, and don't realy want to back up what they claim, they should change there warrenty.

i agree with seabass and tommy, that is the sales pitch. pay more for my shafts and they wont break. especially at nearly double the price. if they break they should warranty them no questions.........

Originally posted by BillaVista
I'm going to throw a controversial thought out there.....

We're always going on about who will warranty what, and we all know that the warranty is to protect the consumer from MANUFACTURING DEFECT, not from use, misuse, abuse, or wear out insurance...even if it's a lifetime warranty....that just means you have the lifetime to discover the DEFECT not a lifetime to use / abuse a part and they'll always replace it. A lifetime warranty doesn't mean lifetime free replacements.

And before you all jump all over me, think of it from the companies point of view....

Heck - when someone posts about having there stuff stolen, we all leap in with "yea, thieves are scum, string them up". Exactly how is planning or attempting to defraud a company any different?

I'm not judging or condemning anyone, just asking an honest ethical question? How is it different for you? Is it just a "big faceless corporation" thing?


Before a company decides on a "Lifetime warranty", they do plenty of analysis. They know they will get added sales because of it. They know they will be able to raise their margin, and make more money per item, and they also know that 95% of their product will never be warrantied. All of these things would go into the benefit side of the analysis, but they also understand that there are costs involved with such a blanket warranty. Namely that they will lose their pants on a few sales. Knowing this they went ahead and offered the lifetime warranty. So if I need to use the warranty, no matter what, I don't feel that I am taking advantage of them at all.

Originally posted by Cliffhanger
Ok that U-Joint is still alive, but is it OK to use.



I plan on reusing it. I just need a new cap since one of them got lost in the carnage... And as for what failed first, we determined that the knuckle failed first, as it showed evidence of a previous crack @ the upper ball joint area where it broke.

I mean Kragen/autozone ect sell brakes with a lifetime warrenty, and we all know they won't last a lifetime.....ok your turn

Well, that's a good point. I think in this case it's a marketing decision like 82Fb said. But what if you took those brake pads, and raced them, and melted a set a weekend, and every weekend you were going back for a new set - I wonder how long it would be before they played the "unintended application" card??

Now - as for Warn, it seems they've changed their tune a bunch of times. It used to be lifetime no questions, then it was something sily like "you have to stop driving" then they realized there was no way to polce that, then it was 2 free ones, then....


The latest from their site is:

Warn axle shafts have proven more robust than stock axles and will normally survive a u-joint failure. Warn high-strength axles are warrantied for the life of the original owner against all manufacturer's defects. However, because of individual driving styles, Warn will not warranty damaged axles yokes that were the result of a U-joint failure.

So presumably if they draw your attention to this when you buy, I guess you're rightfully on your own?

Originally posted by Lance
I plan on reusing it. I just need a new cap since one of them got lost in the carnage...

Really:eek: That thing looked pretty well scarred, or is it just an optical illusion??

Originally posted by BillaVista

<snip>
The latest from their site is:

Warn axle shafts have proven more robust than stock axles and will normally survive a u-joint failure. Warn high-strength axles are warrantied for the life of the original owner against all manufacturer's defects. However, because of individual driving styles, Warn will not warranty damaged axles yokes that were the result of a U-joint failure.


Looks like Lance's shafts should be warrentied by their wording:cool: - axle shafts weren't damaged due to a u-joint failure:D

Originally posted by injectedEB


Looks like Lance's shafts should be warrentied by their wording:cool: - axle shafts weren't damaged due to a u-joint failure:D

:grinpimp:

ahhhh i hope its true for ya lance....... ill buy a second set, and replace and return throughout the year :D :grinpimp:

Looks like Lance's shafts should be warrentied by their wording - axle shafts weren't damaged due to a u-joint failure

Gawd, can you imagine. Used to be U-joint failure took out the shaft, so they changed the wording. Now u joint indestructability moves the weak link to the shaft...you're golden.

hey, I bet the thing to do is get in now, before they change the wording again....buy while it still says what it does!

:smokin:

Originally posted by BillaVista


Gawd, can you imagine. Used to be U-joint failure took out the shaft, so they changed the wording. Now u joint indestructability moves the weak link to the shaft...you're golden.

hey, I bet the thing to do is get in now, before they change the wording again....buy while it still says what it does!

:smokin:

wait.... wait.... wait..... now that goes back to what was being said earlier.. ur saying.... lets jump in before the loop hole gets closed. Come on....... lets not become legal theifs here.... get what u need, cause u need it.... conduct business properly and show respect to the company. In the long run its those who dont show respect to the company that encourages the wording changes and ends up fawking up the honest guy. ME! :angel:

Anotherwords.... If they make rules and laws (or....wording changes) that affect the 100% of the people, because there's 5% asshoes who are milking the system... then who is REALLY in charge of our lifes...

The 5% ASSHOES are!

let an asshoe be an asshoe.... Dont let him be an asshoe in charge!

Coachgeo,

glad to see somebody understood what i meant. Sarcasm in last comment.

You're either behaving in an ethical manner, or you're not. Like insurance fraud...we're all gonna pay in the end.

You are right - stop wasting time trying to take advantage - just run the right fawkin hardware for the job and / or learn to drive better!

I am currently in a position (and not a good one either) where I have to use my rig for both wheeling and road rage. I noticed that someone has asked how the CTM joints hold up for road use, but I didn't really see an explicit answer. HOW much extra greasing is this thing going to require over a normal needle bearing joint? I already have a plethra of appendages on my vehicle that need greasing, lubing, and carressing to keep the dumb thing running and don't necessarily want to add to the list. Also, is there an internet site for CTM? I haven't found one!

YOu are kidding yourself if you tink there is any such thing as a breakage proof 44. or a break proof 60 for that matter. come to think of it, I have seen more duce-and-a-halfs break than I can count.
"If you are trying to fix a bad design, eliminate the source of the problem"

I dont know if it has already been discussed, but could someone please explain why there is a big chamfer on the edge of the bearing surface on the CTM joint above???? The only explanation I can think of is that it will help the cap get cocked and break the ears off of the shaft so that CTM can have the "Indestructable Warranty"

Originally posted by colech
I am currently in a position (and not a good one either) where I have to use my rig for both wheeling and road rage. I noticed that someone has asked how the CTM joints hold up for road use, but I didn't really see an explicit answer. HOW much extra greasing is this thing going to require over a normal needle bearing joint? I already have a plethra of appendages on my vehicle that need greasing, lubing, and carressing to keep the dumb thing running and don't necessarily want to add to the list. Also, is there an internet site for CTM? I haven't found one!

thats not an easy ? to answer, what kind of wheeling do you do? how many miles a week do you put on the road? do you or dont you have lockout hubs?

i personally will lube after every day of wheeling, and once a week in shitty rainy/ snowy/salty weather.... and every 3000 miles when i change my oil.....

CTM's # 949-487-0770 ask for Jack Graef.... tell him the guys from PBB sent ya......... :D

ctmracing.com

Originally posted by Diesel Junkie
I dont know if it has already been discussed, but could someone please explain why there is a big chamfer on the edge of the bearing surface on the CTM joint above???? The only explanation I can think of is that it will help the cap get cocked and break the ears off of the shaft so that CTM can have the "Indestructable Warranty"

the chamfer is there to provide space for grease in the u-joint, because contrary to the belief of the previous owner of my front 60 u-joints do require grease, and since the CTM joints don't have needle bearings, you can't pack the reserve of grease in around the bearings anymore, so they moved it to the next best spot.

thats not an easy ? to answer, what kind of wheeling do you do? how many miles a week do you put on the road? do you or dont you have lockout hubs?

Yes I have lockout hubs, drive about 50 miles a week, and don't thrash my rig TOO hard. I guess the main reason that interests me in the CTM is that I have a fullsize 73 3/4 ton converted Chev with the usual 350 engine. In high stress situations where all the weight is on the front and there is excellent traction, a 44 u-joint will eventually break even when care is taken (from experience). I really like wheeling in snow as well, so I would prefer not using a D60 due to the extra weight. CTM joints and warn shafts sounds more appealing to my situation. Thanks for the tip on the internet site badassjeepguy!

ctm's $300 a pair
warn axles..$300 pair
$600:eek:
just say D60

Well I guess the grease cavity is a valid reason for the chamfer,

but if you were to imagine the stress profile on a u-joint like that, all of the support to keep the caps in the ears comes from that area. There are other ways to put grease in the joint. I am thinking that they are designing their joints to transfer the weak link to the shafts and make their joints "Look" strong.

Of course I am just speculating, but I cant think of any other reason for the big chamfer.

I tend to agree with deiseljunkie. There are other ways to hold a little extra grease in there. The chamfer definitely transfers the torque to the axle ears and makes the joint appear stronger, as this is the area where the highest torque loading is going to occur in the joint.

Originally posted by Nate C
I tend to agree with deiseljunkie. There are other ways to hold a little extra grease in there. The chamfer definitely transfers the torque to the axle ears and makes the joint appear stronger, as this is the area where the highest torque loading is going to occur in the joint. Hmmmmmmm...........?

I agree that a 60 is the way to go, but for those people that have some serious coin in their front 44, why not try the CTM joints and just make what yuo have stronger. It takes a bit more load to break a Warn shaft than a stock shaft. Also, you are not eliminating the weak link, you are just making that weak link a bit stronger. i still would not run 44" tires on a 44 with CTM joints, but I am much more confident about runnnig the 44 with CTM joints and some 38's now. As a matter of fact, I think I am gonna do that. With the auto, a front 44 with WARN shafts, and the CTM joints up in there, and i should be just fine with the 38's I wanna run.

Dimitri

Originally posted by SeaBass44
ctm's $300 a pair
warn axles..$300 pair
$600:eek:
just say D60

I think that equals $900... A pair of axles is one inner and one outer...right ?
So we need 2 pair plus $300 in joints...ouch !

I think a 60 is in order unless you have a real light rig

Originally posted by Flatty
I agree that a 60 is the way to go, but for those people that have some serious coin in their front 44, why not try the CTM joints and just make what yuo have stronger. It takes a bit more load to break a Warn shaft than a stock shaft. Also, you are not eliminating the weak link, you are just making that weak link a bit stronger. i still would not run 44" tires on a 44 with CTM joints, but I am much more confident about runnnig the 44 with CTM joints and some 38's now. As a matter of fact, I think I am gonna do that. With the auto, a front 44 with WARN shafts, and the CTM joints up in there, and i should be just fine with the 38's I wanna run.

Dimitri

exactly.... i got some cash in my front hp nine...... im not trying to get rid of all weak links, or trying to make it as strong as a 60.... i just want it stronger than what it currently is..... and i think the ctm joint and warn will make my set up stronger than what it was before..... ill be running my 39.5's with it :D

Dimi,
What I am hypothisizing is that the CTMs make the overall package weaker than lets say, .... Warn shafts with standard u-joints in them....
If you enjoy the light weight of a 44 then go ahead with the big $$$ CTM's and Warn shafts.... My opinion is a D60 all the way. I prefer the reduced stress approach.

Chris I agree as well, but not everyone can drop the serious coin on a front 60 right off the bat. I found a 44 for my front end complete with everything like Warn shafts, detroit, gears, ... for a good price. I can't build a 60 for the same price, or even find one for that price. Don't get me wrong. If I found a front 60 for that price, I would do it in a heartbeat, but I feel the 44 will handle the lightweight wheeling I am gonna do. I am not gonna wheel it like I did my Flatty because it is not gonna be built quite to the same specs. Think about yu have in your front 60, including buying it. I am gonna have less than that in both my front 44 and 12 bolt COMBINED. All I am trying to get at is if everyone wants to build to the max, we will be full of the 60's, Atlas cases, injected big blocks, 44" swampers,... All in all everyone out there will have over $30,000 in their rigs, and there will always be something tht breaks. Jack made a great product, that does work. It does not get rid of the weak link, buit it makes that link a bit stronger. The added stregth will make it that much vbetter for the long run.

Dimitri

Originally posted by badassjeepguy


exactly.... i got some cash in my front hp nine...... im not trying to get rid of all weak links, or trying to make it as strong as a 60.... i just want it stronger than what it currently is..... and i think the ctm joint and warn will make my set up stronger than what it was before..... ill be running my 39.5's with it :D

39.5s ??? Well, you better bring some spares to Tellico bud...
The boys are gonna love to see all that hi-dollar hardware on the window sill at the green cove...lol

The chamfer is to aid in installing the huge joint into the axle. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by dirtrod


39.5s ??? Well, you better bring some spares to Tellico bud...
The boys are gonna love to see all that hi-dollar hardware on the window sill at the green cove...lol

ba hahaha, yeahh, ill have spares..... :flipoff2: i feel pretty confident in em though........

btw, 60's are in the works, just a matter of time, hoping this set up makes it through the season with less trouble than last year.....

Thats the ticket,
Lance Nailed the answer I was looking for.

Do the caps have a matching chamfer internally?

Ok guys, I'm a newbie, so bear with me for a second...

I have a set of custom Warn axles (the D44 style) that were made to fit into my Range Rover front axle in my 80-inch trail truck.

I have the regular UJ's in there now, and was wondering about these CTM's? I have never heard of them before and was thinking it might be a nice little thing to add in there.

Additionally, I run a closed-knuckle swivel ball, and it's filled with corn-grease (official LR grease is a bit spendier than John Deere and it's the same stuff). So, the yokes, and UJ are bathed in oil/grease constantly.

Will that pose a problem if/when I decide to run CTM's, that's why I'm asking.

I'm going to check out that CTMracing.com site and learn a bit more.

Thanks for putting up with an obvious newbie...:flipoff2:

Later,

Michael

Shouldnt be a problem. You could actually run the CTM joint without the orings for better lubrication in your closed knuckle.