Cant wait until i get em together. This is what i figured about the gear ratio selection to be.

sm465: 1st gear:6.55, 2nd:3.58, 3rd:1.7, 4th:1.0
Axles: 4.10
np205: low:1.96 high:1
*(1st 1st low)344.76:1 (high) 176:1*
*(1st 2nd low)188.43:1 (high) 96.14:1*
*(1st 3rd low)89.48:1 (high) 45.65:1*
*(1st 4th low)52.64:1 (high) 26.86:1*
*(2nd 1st low)188.43:1 (high) 96.14:1*
*(2nd 2nd low)102.99:1 (high) 52.55:1*
*(2nd 3rd low)48.91:1 (high) 24.96:1*
*(2nd 4th low)28.77:1 (high) 14.68:1*
*(3rd 1st low)89.48:1 (high) 45.65:1*
*(3rd 2nd low)48.91:1 (high) 24.96:1*
*(3rd 3rd low)23.22:1 (high) 11.85:1*
*(3rd 4th low)13.66:1 (high) 6.97:1*
*(4th 1st low)52.64:1 (high) 26.86:1*
*(4th 2nd low)28.77:1 (high) 14.68:1*
*(4th 3rd low)13.66:1 (high) 6.97:1*
*(4th 4th low)8.04:1 (high) 4.1:1*

For those who that is confusing too. It goes transmission gear, tranny gear then transfer case either low or high. With low first. just waiting on money for steel and clutch parts before i can get em in. can't wait to use that 344:1 and walk beside it up a hill.

Are you fabbing the adapters yourself? This sound cool. Can you post some info? I suspect I wouldn't have the room as I have a Blazer but I'd love to see how you do this.

yeah.....i took a clutch input, to avoid having modify the input shaft of the second one and got it welded to the yoke, minus the yoke part of the first one. the first one was a 2wd one and the second the 4 wd one. so the adapter itself isnt that long. i will still have to chop some of the input off so that it butts right up to the output. then i will have two plates, one on the side and one on the bottom to hold the tranny's together. i will have a crossmember underneath the second one and the transfer case. i would assume that this would be too long for a blazer, at least the way i am doing it, i measured 45" from the front output of the transfer case to the front of the bell housing on the first tranny. i have pictures i can email if anyone is interested.
only three, kinda rough estimates
jcrulzhere@aol.com

I am planning on doing mine using a clutch center also ... should work realy well. I have 2 sm420's just sitting there ready to start it whenever I get the time. Some pics of your setup as you go along would be great.

that will not last too long
you need a bigger input

So MJ. The only input I have seen brake was on a devorced mounted tranny and even the owner said that he was thinking solidly mounting the two trannys together would of kept it from braking. Also Isn't the 10 spline style t-case input the same size as the tranny input? I had always assumed so...never verified it.

As I recall you were making your own input for your setup...how is it comming? What do you consider big enough and why?

I will try to get a close up of the adaptor between the two transmissions ready to be emailed this evening. Again, if anyone wants pics, they can email me.

browncow, I sent you an email.

Also Isn't the 10 spline style t-case input the same size as the tranny input? I had always assumed so

it isnt

as for 'big enough' that remains to be seen
'big enough' means 'doesnt break'
the limitations are in the parts we are trying to 'cheaply' stuff together
to make it 'big enough' you may end up replacing enough parts that 'cheaply' goes away
my first input is made, it has been to the cutters for a volume price quote
life is, of course, trying to delay me but I will be putting way to much of my cash towards making the parts available

the questions I have are based around what will the market want?
10 spline for super cheap? or 32 spline for much more strength but added cost of a custom short mainshaft?(opens the door for a t400/sm465 mating as well)
go 35 spline or bigger and really jack the cost?

I want to make a run of 10 and 32 spline to see who wants what
10 for the guys like me that do not have the hp or big bank and make it a mostly junkyard parts assembly
it has to be cheap/comparable to be worth looking at

I also started looking at changing the head set ratio to make the gear spacing closer together

there is a long way someone could run with manual trannies in 4x4 land and so far noone has stepped up to the plate to give us a Jerico-like gearbox

I'm assuming you've seen this one setup here? (http://coloradok5.com/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1049599/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1/vc/1)

having seen it in action, it worked very, very nice, until it broke.

Personaly, i think making it solidly coupled, like a 203/205 doubler, would be the way to go, and possibly fix the weak link on the second input.

Yep thats the one I was talking about earlier.

I think you would definatly have a market for them MJ. I would also imagine that it shoulden't cost much more than the early ORD doublers. I think I paid almost 900$ for mine when it came out.

It might break on me. If i does, that is when i wil find a way to do it the expensive way so it wont break on me. Honestly, i think the weaker point will be INSIDE the tranny where it is receving 6.5x the torque. However, i do no believe i will ever need the low low. if i do, i am pretty sure i will not be romping on it to try to spin the tires. The only other concern i have with the adaptor, is going from 32 spline to 10 spline in that short distance. The only way to find out though, is to slap em together and see how it works.

. I would also imagine that it shoulden't cost much more than the early ORD doublers.

that is the price point as I see it.
it has to be equal or lower 'installed' price to be viable

True, true.

If the price and strength were the same, I would rather have dual tranny's or rather a Auto to Manual setup than a doubler for the gear selection.

I am currently collecting parts for a doubler but I'm taking my time to see if anything develops here.

I keep hearing rumers about swamp buggies doing it all the time but never pics or data?

Here (http://www.rattlerock.com/kevin_mize_erocc_rig.htm)

here (http://www.sos.mtu.edu/4x4/rigs.htm)

Maybe here (http://filebox.vt.edu/j/johaines/FJ40.htm)

Seems that dual transfercases are much more popular.

there were images on this site posted by "onetonwillys" and the owner gave a play by play
his method was cut the input off and weld a short section of output shaft to it and run a stock 10 spline coupler
I have those images on my HDD IIRC

Yep I remember that cut/weld writeup.

Anyone know of a guy by the name of Bobby Brown? He had a low slung 1 ton S10 on 44s. I think it was set up to sand/mud drag. I am not sure if it was in TTC but he applied for a couple of years. They had a photo of him pullin his front tires while launching in a sand drag. He was running a th350/4speed.

I would also like to run a TH350 to a SM465. I've thought about adapting a female input like the 203 to the input on the manual in a fashion to avoid a coupler and make it as tight as possible.

Wouldnt it be wiser to run a th400 because of strength? thats what i would run if i were going to do it auto-manual. but since i am doing manual manual.......

I've thought about adapting a female input like the 203 to the input on the manual in a fashion to avoid a coupler and make it as tight as possible.


this isnt hard
just be sure to tell the machinist that it is through hardened when he quotes you a price
I would even cut up the 203 input to get the splines
in my case the 10 spline 203 was too rare to destroy

Well, I gathered up a junk 4 speed and another 203 to start messing with it. Looks like the 203 input is cast into a gear that would have to be cut off.

The input on the 4 speed is pretty long and I think could be shortened down some.

It would be nice if I could come up with a one piece input shaft for the 4 speed with the female on the front that sits rather tight to the housing.

I havnt broke the TH350 since I went to lower gears, I dont see why it would break under these conditions. If anything, it would last longer with more gear reduction behind it.

you can have the 465 input shaft cut off and bore the gear back to 1/4" from the pocket bearing
then have the 203 splined section machined to a light pressfit matching the bore you created in the 465 input
press them together and have it TIG welded
viola
if I had the 2 parts I could do it for ya, but you would have to specify how short

So basically you are alomost using the 203 splined seciton as the coupler right?

Is it deep enough to be pressed onto the manual shaft (and welded) and still have enough engagement for the output shaft on the auto?

I'll have to take an evening and tear these two units down. Then maybe I could see for myself. :rolleyes:

If its going to be that easy, I think a second tranny would blow the hell out of a doubler. And cheaper too.

Is it deep enough to be pressed onto the manual shaft

pressed INTO would be a better description

I had collected all the parts to get a 4 speed in front of an ORD doubler but after thinking on the second tranny thing for a while I sold them

I know Bobby Brown. His setup works very well. I'm not sure if he's still running it, but he was as hard on that truck as you could be. He would drive it all week hauling wood, then race it Sat. night, and be at the mudhole on Sunday. Later he started doing tuff truck racing with it, and did well.

been working on the exact same setup myself. 465 to 465 np 205. For my coupler between the first and second tranny I'm using a drive couple that the dirt roundy round racers use when they don't use a clutch. I think it is mainly the outlaws that use it they call it a cheater button. Bolts to the back of the crank and has the splines to slip over the tranny input. Same thing as the center of a clutch but this and the 35 spline yoke off of the two wheel drive number 1 tranny press right together so the coupler is as tight as could be just need to weld it. Behind the first tranny i'm running an adapter that came from a sm465 to dana 20 originally found in old blazers on the back of my number 1 two wheel drive tranny. From the back of the dana 20 adapter I'm having my machinest make an adapter that goes from the dana 20 bolt pattern to the front of the sm 465 4 bolt pattern where the bellhousing would normally mount. Waiting on the machine shop but should be put together sometime soon. Could yu send me some pics of your setup to krawlers@wamego.net

If someone is planning on machining a shaft that is an sm465 output on one end and an sm465 input on the other end, I'd buy one. Then a simple adapter that matches the t-case adapter to sm465on one end and the bellhousing pattern on the other end to bolt the two trannies together. Shoot me a price.

Any updates on this?

10 spline sm465 welded input

I know I am out of my place here, but I couldnt help but check this out....I have seen a lot of toys running 2 trannys all of a sudden...Glad to see some full sizes chasing this also...GOOD LUCK to all of you guys :smokin: ...Jeremy

** Hopefully this will be availabe to us MOPARS one day..... :grinpimp:

** Hopefully this will be available to us MOPARS one day..... :grinpimp:

Ummm... why not? Got a spare 23-spline sleeve? :p

it is easy on a Mopar, where do you think I am robbing np435 mainshafts from to do the Fords.

I was hoping to put a manual behind an auto actually. I like my slushbox, just want lower gears than the 205 offers. Besides, I like doing things differently too.

http://coloradok5.com/forums/images/smilies/ears.gif

350 to 465/208 til it pukes, just cause I have it.

Tubbs

well from what i have heard, the biggest problem aside from length is the strength of the imput to the second tranny. not that it cant and has'nt been done. another thing to think about is, with dual trannies and a t-case you can be stupid low. are you doing the kind of wheeling that needs those gears? with a Th350, sm465, 205, and 4.10 gears you would be at ~135 give or take. this is a mechanical gear ratio and does not include the multiplacation of the TC.

if you are looking for lower gears why not a doubler? i understand the being different thing, and when i go doubler i will not be doing the typical 203/205. i will be doing a 241/205. this will put me just over 60:1 mechanically.

Keeping 60" tractors moving(not trying to throw roosters) is not for your average bear.

Tubbs

well from what i have heard, the biggest problem aside from length is the strength of the imput to the second tranny. not that it cant and has'nt been done. another thing to think about is, with dual trannies and a t-case you can be stupid low. are you doing the kind of wheeling that needs those gears? with a Th350, sm465, 205, and 4.10 gears you would be at ~135 give or take. this is a mechanical gear ratio and does not include the multiplacation of the TC.

if you are looking for lower gears why not a doubler? i understand the being different thing, and when i go doubler i will not be doing the typical 203/205. i will be doing a 241/205. this will put me just over 60:1 mechanically.

better question is why are the doubler guys trying to get lower gears in their range boxes and transfer cases?
the gear sets cost more then the doubler kit did.
2nd in an sm465 is 3.58 and a heck of a lot cheaper then a 3:1 WMS or LoMax.

if you are looking for lower gears why not a doubler?

if your running a manual main transmission i'd likely go that route myself just cause it works great and is pretty easy to do

though dual manuals obviously let you go really stupid low cheaper

the beauty of the dual trannys however is when your main trans is an auto, most auto failures i've seen still leave the tranny with at least one direction, well with dual trannys if you lose forward in the auto simply shift it and your manual 2nd tranny into reverse and your now going forward once again to finish the day
Hell with a shift to 4 hi that option could even get you back to camp at a decent clip if your just trying to get out of the trails

mj- did you ever start mass producing the input for the 465 or are you just welding the 10 spline in to a cut down input shaft like in the pic?

have not yet got a production run done.
thinking 32spline is the way to go.
welded is the only way I have tried.

How well does the welded version hold up? Have you put any REAL power to it yet? I thought about doing it that way but decided to have the female splines cut instead. I thought it would be a lot stronger if it was all one piece. Mine will be behind a 570hp big block in my FJ40. Should be tons of fun. (If it doesn't break!)

one piece is the way to go.

How well does the welded version hold up? Have you put any REAL power to it yet? I thought about doing it that way but decided to have the female splines cut instead. I thought it would be a lot stronger if it was all one piece. Mine will be behind a 570hp big block in my FJ40. Should be tons of fun. (If it doesn't break!)

What's your rear driveshaft going to look like:eek:

I stretched the wheelbase (four link in the rear) about 12 inches to compensate for the added tranny. It adds 13 inches. The rear shaft is about 20 inches long with a cv on the transfer case side.

ttt

Tubbs

any updates. Where you located in bc MJ, i'm in coquitlam. If your not going production on these i would be interested in seeing a final product so i can copy.
If that works for you.

emailed you

If anyone is still interested in these, I have just gotten my first small production run of input shafts done. They are one piece, machined from brand new input shafts. I am now working on the adapter plates. They should be ready in a couple of weeks. Am also putting together a complete kit, shaft/adapter/shifter (twin stick or single) and grade eight hardware. There will be tapped holes in the bottom of the adapter plate for use of stock style tranny mounts. The complete kit will go for somewhere around $900.00 give or take $50.00. I will be putting together an E-bay store. For now I can be contacted on here or directly at onebigfkr@yahoo.com

By the way, I'm also working on an adapter to mate the sm 465 to the back of a TH400, just for fun.

By the way, I'm also working on an adapter to mate the sm 465 to the back of a TH400, just for fun.

How about a TH350 to 465, cause that's what I'm using.
Is the first sm465, a married or a divorced trans?

Where in Iowa?

Tubbs

That is absolutly great! I bet they will be big sellers!

I know this is slightly o/t, but I was at one of my dad's buddies farms, and in the weeds behind a barn they had an old tractor that had 4, yes 4, 4 speed transmissions after the engine. it had a conventional frame and a truck rearend, it was really old but didnt look totally rednecked together.

In Davenport, Tubbs. And the first tranny is from a married setup.

I haven't really given the th350 much thought, mostly because I don't have one sitting around. I was thinking about a powerglide though, cause they are so small and because the circle track guys use them (lots of heavy duty aftermarket support)

In Davenport, Tubbs. And the first tranny is from a married setup.

I haven't really given the th350 much thought, mostly because I don't have one sitting around. I was thinking about a powerglide though, cause they are so small and because the circle track guys use them (lots of heavy duty aftermarket support)

i like that idea better too. plus they are super short.(shorter than a 465 + bellhousing i believe.

My buddy has a powerglide sitting around. As soon as I can get it to my place, I'm going to see how compatable it will be with my input shafts/adapters. It should work well.

In Davenport, Tubbs. And the first tranny is from a married setup.

I haven't really given the th350 much thought, mostly because I don't have one sitting around. I was thinking about a powerglide though, cause they are so small and because the circle track guys use them (lots of heavy duty aftermarket support)

Powerglide would be like a hi/lo, nifty.
Cool, I'm located in Cambridge, about 45 min. away.
I could find you a th350 if interested.
And for my next trick, when I finish the first one, will be a sm420/465/205.

We'll have to talk sometime.

Tubbs

I had given the sm420 some thought, mostly because they are smaller than the sm465. I decided on the sm465 because there are so many more of them being used, and they are easier to find in junkyards.

Where do you go wheeling? Is there anything around Cambridge?

I had given the sm420 some thought, mostly because they are smaller than the sm465. I decided on the sm465 because there are so many more of them being used, and they are easier to find in junkyards.

Where do you go wheeling? Is there anything around Cambridge?

It's all private. I wheel at my Dad's farm in the cricks and in a small timber leased by some friends of mine for hunting, that's only if his brother is out there. It may be small but it's alot of fun and possible carnage. The cricks at Dad's are steep banked,tall, and muddy, or in the other pasture, flatter and the more narrow and deep stuff.
We may be able to get into another timber, but we haven't pushed the issue(long story of stupid person, not sactioned by regulars).
If you like the deep stuff and inclines, I can hook you up. If I can't pull you out, we've got tractors.

Tubbs

how would i go about running my c4 to my 435. or 2 435's.

the np435 uses a different front bearing setup.
tapered rollers riding on a race that is shimmed to set endplay.

the reason the sm465 works is that they had a less common 1.5" input shaft so the front bearing has a large ID.
to do an np 435 you would have to change the front bearing size.
it looks to me that an sm465 is the easiest trans to use even in a Ford.

Would love to go with you sometime, TUBBS. I'm not much into the deep mud but do like trails and climbs. Let me know if I can tag along sometime.

I glanced through the tread and didn't see any update on how this was holding up??? Ever since I heard of this idea I've always been skeptical of how the second tranny/input shaft would hold up under the torque load.

I glanced through the tread and didn't see any update on how this was holding up??? Ever since I heard of this idea I've always been skeptical of how the second tranny/input shaft would hold up under the torque load.

why would it be any different then a transfer case input for durability?

why would it be any different then a transfer case input for durability?


Uhh, maybe because the transfer case inputs were DESIGNED to hold up the torque multiplication numbers they see...........

I don't know the numbers on an SM465 input shaft, but I'm sure they were designed based on the torque output of a normal engine. So let's say 400 lb-ft on a stock engine, and on a very healthy big block let's say maybe 600 ft-lbs of torque.

Now shift that trans into first and you are multiplying the torque by over 6 times, so instead of the second trans input shaft having 400 ft-lbs. of torque it is now experiencing over 2,400 ft-lbs. of torque. Even with a safety factor added in I'm sure that's WAY over the torque limit the output shaft (or the entire transmission) was designed for. I sure on the original design the engineers never thought the trans would see anywhere near this amount.

what parts do you foresee having difficulty handling the loads?
the bearings are very close to the same size, the shafts and gears are very close to the same size.
and if you mate the transmission output into a female input it will be the same as the coupling of a transmission to transfer case.
where does the troublespot lie?

more likely failure point would be back in the transfer case that is seeing potentially 6.56 times the torque

I don't know exactly what would fail first.........that's why I asked. Maybe it would be fine, maybe not, but working everyday with the engineers who design automotive parts I know for a fact they did not design it with any intent of handling 2,000-3,000 ft-lbs. of torque since that's WAY out of the realm of any engine that would be mated to it.

You can say the parts "look" about the same size, but I know for a fact that the engineers are not going to randomly put beefier pieces (ie. much more expensive) in the transmission just for the hell of it.

Just think about it. Saying a SM465 can handle over 6 times the normal torque input is the same as saying an AX-15 would hold up fine behind a Cummins diesel.........

no it isn't anything near the same

I have an SM465 in my dumptruck(C60), with a big block, 2 speed rear end and a 26,000 lb. GVWR. It has seen some pretty heavy use besides pulling a 12,000 lb. trailer while fully loaded. It's been in use since 1979. If that doesn't speak volumnes about the transmission's durability, I don't know what does. IMHO, that's what the engineers designed it for, heavy use. They just happened to put it in light duty trucks too.

I am far more concerned about my u-joints and axle shafts than I am the transmissions in my FJ40. Would love to upgrade to CTM stuff in the front end but that shit is spendy!!!

no it isn't anything near the same

If you are referring to my statements on the AX-15, please explain why it is not the same basic idea???

I have an SM465 in my dumptruck(C60), with a big block, 2 speed rear end and a 26,000 lb. GVWR. It has seen some pretty heavy use besides pulling a 12,000 lb. trailer while fully loaded. It's been in use since 1979. If that doesn't speak volumnes about the transmission's durability, I don't know what does. IMHO, that's what the engineers designed it for, heavy use. They just happened to put it in light duty trucks too.

I am far more concerned about my u-joints and axle shafts than I am the transmissions in my FJ40. Would love to upgrade to CTM stuff in the front end but that shit is spendy!!!

I agree that it is a good transmission, but the 26k GVW, 2 speed, etc.....really had nothing to do with the idea that the trans "might" have troubles with the greatly increased torque input as none of these will multiply the torque going into the trans. Does your big block put out 2,000-3,000 ft-lbs. of torque........I think not, and that is the only thing putting torque into the transmission.

Again, I'm not saying that the 2nd SM465 would definitely fail, but I'm simply skeptical about it's durability based on the torque input it would see. I would simply like to hear from someone who has actually used this setup for awhile to see how it is doing.

bigfkr - After posting my previous reply to you I realized you were the one running the dual SM465s.

How long have you been running them? And how often do you use 1st gear of the first tranny?

If you are referring to my statements on the AX-15, please explain why it is not the same basic idea???

why don't we start with you answering why someone needs to prove this to you?
do your own research if you are interested in this idea.

I haven't been running them long enough for me to consider it a long term test, so as far as duralility, I really can't comment. I can tell you that I haven't broken anything YET, (other than axle shafts,u-joints and hubs) not that I haven't been trying. My big block puts out 576 ft. lbs. so if it will hold up to my long term abuse, I can't imagine anyone else having trouble. But there is always someone out there that can break anything.

No, you really don't have a reason to use 1rst gear very much. What I was trying to say with the dumptruck comment is that they built the tranny for heavier applications. I don't know what the rated torque input is, but judging from what vehicles they put it into, I would ASSUME that the torque rating is higher than you are giving it credit for.

why don't we start with you answering why someone needs to prove this to you?
do your own research if you are interested in this idea.

What are you talking about??? It appears you can not back up your comments with any type of reasonable explanation.............

The idea with the AX-15 comment was to simply use another example as to why the SM465 may not hold up with a huge increase in torque input. Putting a 600 ft-lbs Cummins in front of an AX-15 would only increase the torque input by less then 3 times then what the trans was designed for (4.0L engine), while as already mentioned several times the SM465 has an increase torque input of 6.55 times. I can't imagine anybody saying the AX-15 in front of a Cummins is a good idea, even in a really light vehicle.........so why would somebody think the dual SM465's is a good idea (at least looking at it on paper and crunching the numbers).

bigfkr - Thanks for your post. What you said definitely makes sense regarding how well the trans is holding up (ie..not having to use 1st very much).

In my opinion, one would never HAVE to use a 344 to 1 ratio. That doesn't mean it never gets used.

The purpose behind this whole thing is that I wanted to find a better/cheaper way to get stupid low. An alternative (and MUCH cheaper) to the Klune-V. And that is just what I did. My setup has more gearing choices, uses mostly stock parts, the second tranny is cheap and easy to find and basically bulletproof, not to mention the fact that it's at least $1000 cheaper than a Klune.

We can debate all day long on whether it will hold up or not. As for me, until it breaks, I'll say it's a damn nice setup. If I do manage to break it I'm sure I'll figure out a way to make it stronger. Hell, I could do it three times on the same vehicle and still not have as much in it as if I would have done a Klune.

There are a few people out there who are or have run these with great success. Most I have seen or heard about weld material onto the input shaft and use a coupler. The way that I (and MJ) have done it is a much better/stronger way. It's good to be skeptical, but unless you have heard about someone breaking these things, maybe you should give it the benifit of the doubt.

A few years back one of our club members put a 465/465/205 combo in his suburban(I believe there was pics on CK5)

his method of coupling was a short driveshaft, with two u-joint's going into the second tranny(to ensure there was no side loading) The input to the second tranny sheared off on the first wheeling run.

There was no welding on the input shaft, or anything else, just a 10 spline yoke slid over it, just like the input to a divorced t-case.

just like the input to a divorced t-case.

only smaller.

do divorced cases have an extra bearing to support the input like the pilot bushing does on a transmission?

A few years back one of our club members put a 465/465/205 combo in his suburban(I believe there was pics on CK5)

his method of coupling was a short driveshaft, with two u-joint's going into the second tranny(to ensure there was no side loading) The input to the second tranny sheared off on the first wheeling run.

There was no welding on the input shaft, or anything else, just a 10 spline yoke slid over it, just like the input to a divorced t-case.


Any idea what the diameter of the second input shaft was. Was the 10 spline input yoke the same diameter as the output of the first trans.? (1.5 inches) If he left the input the stock size and simply slid a coupler over it, it would have been quite a bit smaller than the output shaft. It's no wonder it sheared off.

I think it is a great idea. If the second tranny was used as the main gear box and the first tranny in fourth gear it would not be putting the stress on the second box all the time.

his method of coupling was a short driveshaft, with two u-joint's going into the second tranny(to ensure there was no side loading) The input to the second tranny sheared off on the first wheeling run.


I remember seeing that over on CK5... His female coupler was the center from an old clutch disk. The stock input is alot weaker than the output. I also don't think he had a slipyoke inbetween them...not sure on that one. But I know he even said that one of his problems was that it was devorced and he figured it would last longer if it was married. I thought he had been running it for months and was pulling another fullsize out of a mud hole when it broke.

I remember seeing that over on CK5... His female coupler was the center from an old clutch disk.


Well, that would explain why it broke.

Well, that would explain why it broke.
ttt

only smaller.

do divorced cases have an extra bearing to support the input like the pilot bushing does on a transmission?

Yes, just like all the outputs at the end there is a bearing and then the retainer bolted on the case with a yoke bolted at the end of the shaft.

Now for the Dual 465's the only way it will stand a chance is by having the input on the second changed to at least the same size as the output of the first and to use the second tranny most of the time and the first only when you want to go low.
And there is almost no reason to use the first gear on the first tranny:
The second or third is already a lot of reduction plus the first gear of the second tranny...
I have an input from a C60 SM465 and that is the same size as the output, just need to fix the splines to match the shape of the 10 spline output.
:D

Nothing really to add here, but I really enjoyed reading the thread! It's minds like yours that will take off-roading to the next level! I think threads like this help us all expand our minds to find ways to keep wheeling for the masses. Not everyone, in fact most people can't afford to spend $2000-$4000 for a single drive train component. I would happily replace three SM465's that I'd broken while out having good dirty fun before I would or could buy one of the aftermarket underdrives. Good Luck!

Edit: Have any of you thought of using a bigger (read med duty) truck tranny behind your SM 465? The IHC (Fuller) T-35 is a 5 speed case used in loadstars and busses from the late 60's through late 70's. It's not that much bigger than a SM 465 but has a significantly larger input shaft.... and a 7.16/1 first gear (2nd is 3.96, 3rd is 2.365, 4th is 1.41 and 5th is 1.00).

I see this swap as a good way to extend the crawling abilities of a rig with a relatively low powered engine. Do those already making "575 ft/lbs" really need the lower gears? It would seem that your money would be better spent beefing up your existing drive train to handle the power you're already putting on the ground! Of couse that's just my $.02! I have been known to do things just because I could! (example: Rockwells on a Scout II!) This tread made me take a good look and the parts I had laying around though....... HMMMM!!!!

anyone have any updates to add to this thread....hows this working for you bigfkr. yea i know im dredging up and old thread but get the fuck over it.

yea i know im dredging up and old thread but get the fuck over it.

No don't want to get over it:flipoff2:


I'm interested to hear as well.

No don't want to get over it:flipoff2:


I'm interested to hear as well.

lol, trying to find uses for those old clutch disks?

werent the sm465s available with a larger input for use in school buses or something?

Yup behind the big blocks.
If you SEARCHED first, the info's in one of my threads:laughing:

just making sure the info was right....
thanks.:D

lol, trying to find uses for those old clutch disks?

werent the sm465s available with a larger input for use in school buses or something?

i just heard that from sombody else but i was thinking i know this would be alot of cost but if i could find a machinist to make me a female input shaft for the 465 that would just accept the 32 spline ord output that would make the said adapter that needs to be made much shorter. would that be possible in any way?

Somehow I think that a female input is doable, maybe someone will chime in here.
But if you're going to go through all the work to go 32 spline, why not make it 35 spline??:flipoff2:

Somehow I think that a female input is doable, maybe someone will chime in here.

we need mj and bigfkr to chime in badly if i read what bigfkr said correctly on page 2 the female imput idea is exactly what he did

Yeah, maybe MJ will pop in, he's been talking about building this for a long time.

spidr,

How's your dual 465's holdin' up? Better than your 14B pinion? :stirthepot: :flipoff2:

I figured he didn't want my opinion.....:laughing:

He posted in my build so I figured he knows it exists...:flipoff2:

I figured he didn't want my opinion.....:laughing:

He posted in my build so I figured he knows it exists...:flipoff2:

huh? i havent seen your thread in forever. is it the blazer with giant tires? i didnt even know you did that

I've got an entire "dual transmission" buildup in Gen 4x4;)

And mine works......:laughing: ........At least it's stronger than the pinion on a 14ff.

Yeah, maybe MJ will pop in, he's been talking about building this for a long time.

yeah but I finally ditched the chevy and went back to my nice Fords.
dual np435s wont work, the input retainer sets end play and the input bearing ID is too tiny.

the sm465 is easy to do a female input as they has a 1.5" OD input shaft for heavy applications and the small input still uses the huge bearing
so there is tons of room to bore under the stock bearing journal and press fit a section of the stock coupler into it
adapter length can be as short as you dare go limited by how much material you care to leave for the thrust of the mainshaft pocket gear, and how much spline engagement you want to leave
even leaving more then a 1/4" of material for the pocket bearing thrust and full 1.3" of spline engagement (which is all there is on the coupler) the adapter length works out to 54mm which is 2"

I made one gear but never installed the dual transmissions, just mocked it up on the bench
still have it on my "trophy shelf"
if you have the room for an aditional 14" total length to your driveline, and dont mind 10 spline shafts, that is the fastest cheapest "+doubler+" you can make
wish the same methods worked on a np435 but no such luck, had to spend the $$ for a NWF blackbox and some custom shaft work to make it as short as possible, installed at 2¼" longer then stock. the ¼" is the off the shelf transmount that could be eliminated if one wanted to drill and tap a mount into the BB (I shoulda done it)

I've got an entire "dual transmission" buildup in Gen 4x4;)

And mine works......:laughing: ........At least it's stronger than the pinion on a 14ff.

holy crap man you were holding out on me! how did you do the coupler

yeah but I finally ditched the chevy and went back to my nice Fords.
dual np435s wont work, the input retainer sets end play and the input bearing ID is too tiny.

the sm465 is easy to do a female input as they has a 1.5" OD input shaft for heavy applications and the small input still uses the huge bearing
so there is tons of room to bore under the stock bearing journal and press fit a section of the stock coupler into it
adapter length can be as short as you dare go limited by how much material you care to leave for the thrust of the mainshaft pocket gear, and how much spline engagement you want to leave
even leaving more then a 1/4" of material for the pocket bearing thrust and full 1.3" of spline engagement (which is all there is on the coupler) the adapter length works out to 54mm which is 2"

I made one gear but never installed the dual transmissions, just mocked it up on the bench
still have it on my "trophy shelf"
if you have the room for an aditional 14" total length to your driveline, and dont mind 10 spline shafts, that is the fastest cheapest "+doubler+" you can make
wish the same methods worked on a np435 but no such luck, had to spend the $$ for a NWF blackbox and some custom shaft work to make it as short as possible, installed at 2¼" longer then stock. the ¼" is the off the shelf transmount that could be eliminated if one wanted to drill and tap a mount into the BB (I shoulda done it)

well ive got 56's on the trazer right now and i still dont have a t case but i think i could have decent angle currently with a cv and if i put 64's on it that should move the axle back some more so im not too worried. do you have any idea what kind of input bigfkr made?

I coulda just told you to search, but that wouldn't have been as amusing:flipoff2:

Last page for the newest shaft....
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=578062&highlight=

I've talked to my machinist buddy and I'm taking him some bits in the next week or so to get started on a CNCed adapter.

I coulda just told you to search, but that wouldn't have been as amusing:flipoff2:

Last page for the newest shaft....
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=578062&highlight=

I've talked to my machinist buddy and I'm taking him some bits in the next week or so to get started on a CNCed adapter.

how many have you broken so far just the one or is the one you made prior to that jump on those pipe broken too?
btw you are a bad ass fabricator as soon as ive got my shop and and ironworker i hope to follow the same path:D

I've only broken the one that is pictured.....That was broken before the wheelie.
The new input has held up through a bunch of driveshafts a couple front axleshafts and a 14ff pinion. I think I got it figured now......

I've only broken the one that is pictured.....That was broken before the wheelie.
The new input has held up through a bunch of driveshafts a couple front axleshafts and a 14ff pinion. I think I got it figured now......

hell yea you do im freaking super excited about doing this do you run it in 1st 1st low often or is that just unbearably slow?

I dont like your adapters as I dont think you can ensure the shafts are lined up with them

I dont like your adapters as I dont think you can ensure the shafts are lined up with them


Read above;)
That's the last weak link in my setup, and I've already made arrangements to finally deal with it. Just took longer than I had hoped.:p

I dont like your adapters as I dont think you can ensure the shafts are lined up with them

how did you make sure yours were lined up

1st 1st low is retarded.....Even with 49's and only 4.10s, it's useless, I will never have enough available traction to be able to use it. I finally fawked around with reverse/reverse/low, and it's funny to walk away from the truck and watch it drive, or sit on the roof......:laughing:

1st 1st low is retarded.....Even with 49's and only 4.10s, it's useless, I will never have enough available traction to be able to use it. I finally fawked around with reverse/reverse/low, and it's funny to walk away from the truck and watch it drive, or sit on the roof......:laughing:

ya thats got to be pretty insane you autta figure a way to sell this stuff you could make some money no doubt i think for my adapter i will have both mounting plates cncd and then ill weld the little tunned and crap myself you didnt need to put a seal in that adapter did you?

I've been running it without, but with a transfer tube in the PTOs. The new adapter will have provisions for a seal.

And I may reproduce it once I beat on it for a while more. I wont sell it until I'm not breaking anything and it's all done right;)

I've been running it without, but with a transfer tube in the PTOs. The new adapter will have provisions for a seal.

And I may reproduce it once I beat on it for a while more. I wont sell it until I'm not breaking anything and it's all done right;)

ya thats a good idea. so i need to get a 2wd 465 to run as the first case, then take the yoke from that have it machined down have a sleeve machined and tig that on then tig the splines on correct? think i could get a machine shop to do all that. the guys i have do my stuff are good but i dont know if theyre that good

The adapter is the tricky part. I lucked out that mine's held out this long. Guaranteed that it's not perfectly aligned, so I've already got a spare input in the works and the adapter should be done soon.....
Good luck, and post up how it goes;)

how did you make sure yours were lined up

just copied what the factory did to align things.
the OD of the output bearings and the input bearing retainer act as an alignment for the adapter
to check that its true you put a magnetic base dial indicator on the output and rotate the shaft
same way diesel guys check the bellhousing
spidr could bo that with his, just have to align everything perfectly as he can then drill it for dowels
his is more of a raw test of the concept though IMO so he let the details go to see if the idea was sound or not

Pretty much.....
That's why I want the adapter done right now.....It's proven to me is feasable and will hold, so I'm willing to spend a few bucks on it now to finish it. I've always stated that I have less than $200 into the trials of this thing, for one-off R&D I couldn't beat it. I'll spend a few hundred more now and still be cheaper than just buying a pre-fabbed 203/305 adapter;)

just got a ford t-18
it will work for dual transmissions similar to the sm465 but more work then the chevy
the input bearing OD is the same as a ford np205, so the case doesnt need to be bored for a larger bearing
you would likely have to build up a new bearing surface in some way
maybe use an np205 input gear for the splines as well as the bearing journal and graft the headset gear from the T18 to it
dunno what options are available for a shorter mainshaft yet

I am on the hunt for a t19 with a close ratio gear set, as a 4ish to one first gear would be more useful then the deep granny gears

You gonna build it then MJ?:D
I've read you thinking about it for years.

I am on the hunt for a t19 with a close ratio gear set, as a 4ish to one first gear would be more useful then the deep granny gears

Not to mention it is synchronized IIRC......

What I really would like is a higher reverse gear in an SM465. If you could do that, then you could mate two 465's and have a high reverse and low reverse

I'd probably be better off with a Ranger Overdrive unit but $$$