Well we decided to just do it.

Here is the preliminary Idea.

All Tube chassis (no frame) I have 4000 feet of 2" tubing
350 Carb'd for now then EFI later
SM420
205 Transfer case
Shaved Dana 70 front Locked with ?
Shaved Dana 70 Rear Locked with ?
7:17 Spicer Gears
Hydrolic Stearing we have this already
Either 42" tires or 44's? I am thinking 42's
Looks like the Wheelbase should be around 100-110"

Need Wheelbase Ideas... Would like to keep equal length driveshafts if we can.

Need 4 link plans for the rear.

Need Idea for front suspension.. I am thinking Coil over.

Here we go! :smokin: I better get a case or so of :beer: for this one.

Originally posted by BellyUp
Well we decided to just do it.

Here is the preliminary Idea.

4000 ft of 2" tubing


That's going to be 1 BIG, HEAVY, TURD!!:flipoff2:

Yep, sounds a little old-school. HEAVY and overbuilt. Try lightening it up a little with a 4.3, Auto and 44's front and rear. Cheaper too.

PLEASE TELL ME YOU MEAN 400 ' NOT 4000 '!!!

:eek: :eek: :eek:

I say double triangulated rear 4-link and three link with a track bar in front. Try to make it as light weight as possible and small as will be comfortable. 100" wheelbase or around there

4000 ft isn't even possible :eek:

Sure it's a type. Even 400 sounds like a sheeot load :D

go with a BB chevy right off the bat... more fun and way more torque... weight isnt an issue with the gear your running so just BB it. :)

Mike-

455 olds motor baby! 500lb/ft of torque from the factory and smaller and lighter then a Chevy

205 with low gear set for t-case. somewhere between 105 and 110" wb seems to climb good and not be too long. my .02!:D

Why not run a Ram-Jet 350 creat motor? FI already there, factory warranty, ample power. Just add fuel and 12v and your good to go. Just my .02:D

4000 not a typo...

Just bad typing description. What I ment to say is I have 4000 Feet of 2" tubing at my free disposal.

AS for the other stuff its free too. Thats why we are doing it that way. Already have the stuff. Now its just a matter of bending and knotching the tube..

Oh yea I have a JD2 HYDROLIC bender too. :D

Thanks for the input on the WB issue.. We are going for lightwieght.

Any other ideas are welcome, We are still in the plannning stages.

As for competing in it.. Well you never know,,, Most likely either BADASSJEEPGUY or ROCKBOUND or CRAZY CRAIG or MYSELF will get to take turns at the Wheel.. :D

(Yea Rob you can give us your input!) :D

GET IT!

Originally posted by Snowball
go with a BB chevy right off the bat... more fun and way more torque... weight isnt an issue with the gear your running so just BB it. :)

Mike-

Snowball, originally we were thinking Big Block.. But I want EFI and it seems a 350 EFI off a Corvette or an old Cop car would be fine. Kinda tricky to EFI a Big block. At least I cant think of any that we can get cheep.

So It looks like WB should be 100- 110"

Anyone disagree:question: :question:

Originally posted by BellyUp


Snowball, originally we were thinking Big Block.. But I want EFI and it seems a 350 EFI off a Corvette or an old Cop car would be fine. Kinda tricky to EFI a Big block. At least I cant think of any that we can get cheep.

So It looks like WB should be 100- 110"

Anyone disagree:question: :question:

Was gonna suggest 105" wheelbase, so we're in agreement there. Would suggest LS1 engine (aluminum heads AND block). Should produce plenty of power.

For a little less power (but more torque) and an iron block (cheaper), Vortec 5300 or 6000 - if you go 6000, make sure you get a 2001 or newer for the aluminum heads. All 5300's have aluminum heads. 6000 originally backed by an NV4500 would be ideal since the computer only controls the engine - start with an AT engine & it might be tougher to adapt to your old tranny.

Or, you could go with an old 350 Vette engine (aluminum heads, iron block), but they're starting to get old enough that you might have a tough time finding one that hasn't been wrung out already.

NP205 seems the obvious choice for t-case. With the gearing & SM420, you'd be right at 100:1 for your CR. Do ya really need more with a V8?

No suspension suggestions from me though :)

TEX

Cool Cause we already have a 205 T case. :)

AS for the engine,,,,, We might just have to go with what we can find for now... As much as I only want to do this once...

I hate doing work twice. But If we stick in a Carb'd 350 (Which we have right now that works for free) We can get the rest going. Then do an Engine swap or build up later....

But Like I said. I hate doing stuff twice......
Thanks for the Idea's tex

I'm a big fan of the L98 TPI motors used in Corvettes and Camaro/Firebirds. The long runners are great for low end torque...I personally don't like the next gen motors because of the reverse flow and all the special stuff. The 86-92 350 TPI motors put out power right were we need it. They get a bad wrap because they don't produce much power about 5000rpm, but they're great for what we do.

They're just a generic 350 with the TPI fuel injection...

CJ

yea, I think the engine part might be the toughest part of this build up.

The rest should go smoothly, and since we arn't in much of a hurry. We have plenty of time. to change stuff.

I just think we should have a engine+trany+t case mated to get the ball moving forward. All 350 blocks are the same size right?

hey you have anyone in mind for drivelines? Jess

COME AWWWN JESS

there is only one Drive line.... Its called Build it yourself and drive it till it breaks then build it again and again and again and again.

:p :p :p :p :p

Originally posted by BellyUp

I hate doing work twice. But If we stick in a Carb'd 350 (Which we have right now that works for free) We can get the rest going. Then do an Engine swap or build up later....


Well, the good news is that once you have your carbed 350 in there, upgrading to an EFI model is still a bolt-in affair. You just have to deal with the EFI at that point.

BTW, the LS1 based engines I mentioned aren't based on the same block as the "classic" Chevy small-block. Same bore spacing, so probably similar overall dimensions. And the trans/bellhousing pattern MIGHT be the same, motor mounts I would think would NOT be. So, upgrading to one of these would be more of a PITA than if you stay with some variant of "old style" Chevy small-block.

TEX

Thanks tex..

I think we are going to have to purchase a fuel cel too. I think Summit racing sell them. so that shouldn't be too hard.

Just use the tig and make one, can be made to fit in irregular places. They can't be that hard to make, bend and weld some stainless. Call, email me if you need any input or suggestion (help is a possiblity depending on school and my projects).

I got some cad programs if you want to use them.

Craig

Weld one up... Hmmm good idea we can do that.

This project will most likely take all summer. so you will have time to help out.

The rear 4 link is going to be tough. But as soon as we get the engine/trany/tcase mounted in some sort of cage thingy. We can decide how to hook up the rear end/front ends.

Tom has a CAD program too So thats not a problem either.

Belly Butch has the engine 350 sm tranny 205 for sale make hime an offer on the motor

Greg, What part of FREE didn't you understand?

WE already have the stuff. In Tommy's junk yard. :D

Belly, find out what make and model car or truck you want an efi out of. I have a friend that tow's for some dealers that get cars from Adamsburg Auto Auction. Sometimes he can get complete running cars for as low as $100. That way you can get everything you need for the efi and have spair parts. I would also go with a divorcied 205 from a dodge it maybe easier to get your equal length driveshafts with that setup.

4000' of 2" :eek: you think you could get me 50' :D

Only if you help on this project. Then I am sure we can spare 50 feet of bent tube.

And I bet if you help alot. You could even be one of the drivers.

I'll help, maybe not every day you work on it, the wife :rolleyes: . But just let me know when and where.

Youll be needed when we start bending stuff.

Once we get the engine and trany/tcase together there is going to be a brainstorming process. Lots of paperwork to sort out.

Pen- paper diagrams of ideas. It might end up looking just like a scorpeon (sp) thingy.. But not exactly the same.
It will seat 2 side by side. Thats for sure.

to help narrow the wheelbase thing down more I would keep it minnimum of 103 and max 109 - 110 (since I am guessing you aren't able to go rear steer) (although you could prolly fasion up some cheap cutter breaks)

twins stick the 205

you could mover motor around to make drivelines same length just don't move it back to far and lose climbing abillity.

also if competing where there is a "upright rig" under team power only, think about a way to store 2 pieces of tube on the rig to use a leverage sticks, and mount "holes" (like a reciever) at various point on roof and sides

there were numerous rigs that rolled at arca that could of been flipped by 2 people if they had some sort of lever arms but other wise timed out trying.



keep it narrow and low (duh)

42's sound better choice

and SELL ME SOME TUBE! will pay decent $$

(or is it all bent?)

PM me if interested :)

Originally posted by BellyUp
Youll be needed when we start bending stuff.

Once we get the engine and trany/tcase together there is going to be a brainstorming process. Lots of paperwork to sort out.

Pen- paper diagrams of ideas. It might end up looking just like a scorpeon (sp) thingy.. But not exactly the same.
It will seat 2 side by side. Thats for sure.

belly, it would be a cool project but......... not sure if the pipe tommy has would be up for the abuse......... fairly old and rusty as all hell...

and you know ill help, got the rear links pretty much figured out, DAD uses pro e 40 hours a week (at least) plus acess to a full blown machine shop.......... and awsome prices on the steel we may need for the links and such.....


i say fawk it, make it a 4 seater...... that would be a blast... as long as im driving :D

For your wheelbase: figure out where you want your engine/tranny. Then measure the aproximate length of front of engine to the t-case. Then you gotta figure out where you want your front axle in relationship to your engine. Then the distance from the t-case to your front axle will be half your wheelbase. Follow?
Say for shits and giggles that you measured 50" from engine to t-case. And then, say you want your axle 5" in front of your engine; then your approx. wheelbase should be ~110"

As far as suspension: if you (or the people helping) know a lot about link setups, or are willing to really research it, then go with coils. I firmly believe a very well built coil susp. will out perform a very well built leaf susp. But if you want it to be simple, don't want to bother with links, don't need the extra little bit of travel, etc. then go with some qualty leafs.

Great to hear you're takin on a project like this, and even better to hear it's super cheap!

Rob, I havn't seen the Tube yet.

How bad is it?
4 seater.... And YOU Driving? ha.. Me driving. And everyone else hanging on for dear life.

The more I think about this, I am thinking we should use a frame of some kind as a base. Then tube everything else.....

Thanks for the WB input.

BADASSJEEPGUY, I was hoping you had a plan for the 4 link.. Figured you did. :D

Belly, maybe try finding a frame from a blazer. It would be short,have the motor and tranny mounts allready in it and should be easy to find. They just sold one at the auction last week and I bet it went cheap too. If I remember right it was an efi one.

Flimmy, we are going to use stuff that we already have.
Tom has a junkyard full of stuff. But that's a good idea.

I am sure he has a frame from a Chev Truck out there.

Belly,

I am gonna help too!!!.. Cause I wanna drive..Some guys Mark I know from Ohio started with a Blazer.. good start..frame, engine, driveline already in place..and you have YOUR VIN!...This is what i would do..We will have to sit and talk about this... I will tell you more about Mark's rig.. I know I told you about it.. "Totally buggin".... Its all tube with a blazer frame.. AND a 4 seater..I will try to find his email address and get you guys in touch..


Milkman,

96 XJ with.........?? oh hell .. I lost track..

Hey, Bellyup. I weld fuel cells all day long for "extreme terrain material handlers", or basically super flexy, hydraulic suspension havin', telescopic boom forklifts. Stainless is difficult to weld without leaks. We use a 12 guage mild steel called 12ga. P&O, or pickled and oiled. It stinks like B.O., burns like hell in cuts, but won't rust. The P&O isn't necessary, just helps. But I would suggest a guage of at least 14 unless you are REALLY good at welding. What is important here is a good welder, slightly higher heat, and a quick and steady hand. Use lots of small tacks to keep the metal from warping, and try not to stop in the middle of any welds. If you need to stop, restart from the opposite side and burn into the end of the unfinished weld. Locate some threaded bungs or contact me for some, then seal it up, put about 20 pounds of air pressure to it to locate leaks with a little soapy water. Take your time on the leak check. They are most common on corners where the welds overlap each other. The thicker the metal, the better it will look, but the heavier it will be. Good luck!

Oh Yeah! Don't forget to hang a baffle in the cell. It should come to within an inch or so of the bottom of the tank, don't block the corners.

Wow! lots of people from the 'Burgh here. If you guys need a hand wrenching pm me. DMG

twistedscout ,

Thanks for all the input. My Welder, Tom, is the man. He can weld like there's no tommorrow. and Yes he has a very good welder. Mig, Tig, arc, Braises, torches, you name it. he can weld it.

Right now, BADASSJEEPGUY got me worrying bout the Tubing. He and I have the same freind. And he has seen the Tube, But I havn't seen it yet. He says it in rusty condition...

that might be a big impact on this entire project. If we have to buy tubeing. That would cost a bunch.

Originally posted by BellyUp
twistedscout ,

Thanks for all the input. My Welder, Tom, is the man. He can weld like there's no tommorrow. and Yes he has a very good welder. Mig, Tig, arc, Braises, torches, you name it. he can weld it.

Right now, BADASSJEEPGUY got me worrying bout the Tubing. He and I have the same freind. And he has seen the Tube, But I havn't seen it yet. He says it in rusty condition...

that might be a big impact on this entire project. If we have to buy tubeing. That would cost a bunch.

Belly, does Tom have any old race cars in the junk yard ? Use the cage from it and mount it to the frame you want to use.

Also do what twistedscout said with the fuel cell. Thats what I'm running in my V8 S-10. I got a cell made to go behind the rear axle inbetween the frame rails.

no, no race cars, but plenty of trucks.

I had found a great cage for a buggy but I scraped my plans to build one when the wife told me I could keep the 4runner when I bought my new truck :D . It was a VW bug drag car cage. It was light and strong. It wasn't a dune buggy cage, it was made for a bug body to fit over top of it. The guy was asking $350. It was light enough that 2 people could lift it, it was hang'in from the rafters of a barn with wire. He called on wed to see if I still wanted it because he had someone else that wanted to but it. I also know 2 guy's that used dunebuggy cages on blazer frames. I drove one and it did great wheelin. The one I drove had an inline 6 with and auto and 38" swamper with only 2" lift springs. It handled great on the road too :rolleyes: I'll see if I can get some pic's of them sometime soon.

If your guy doesn't have a frame for ya, I would be able to donate one for the cause.

why 70's im sure tommy got a few of them 2 1/2 ton axles laying around..... :D

to save some cash we could use the middle of a frame and tube either end to accept what we are going to build as far as suspension...... it could be a good starting point....

and if we got the hydrolics for the front, might as well find em for the rear too...


i would like to see no more than 110 no less than 105 for wheelbase.

Rob, No we are not using 2 1/2 ton axles.

We have the 70's

Tom want to go with Spicer Gears. And I want 7:17's

We talked about rear stear. And I think they are outlawing that in the ARCA. If what I remember reading here is correct.

Someone can let us know for sure. Cause Tom wants rear stear too! And If we can get away with it.
ITS AWWWN!:skull: