Plumbing your garage/shop for air.

[unimogken]

Lets hear some ideas and see some pictures of your set ups.

I'm in the process of planning out my projects and I pretty much have in mind what I will be doing with my power. So, now I need to think about my air system.

Theres another thread that covers air compressors so I thought that this would be a good thread to cover the plumbings side of things.

Off we go ! !

[D60]

I'm just using Type M brass.

My gf's father used brass and did a zillion quick connects, just like outlets, throughout..........but honestly I don't see the advantage.

I'm just gonna have two hose reels with 50ft each. I've been getting by with one hose reel for quite some time, and one dedicated line to where the plasma usually sits near the bench.

I REALLY HATE having to roll/coil hose, just like I hate extension cords that are over 10ft long (always tangle). I figure my two reels will reach anywhere in the shop, so don't see the need for multiple outlets.

But the hose reels are sweet, VERY easy to roll the hose back up, stores on the wall out of the way, always "plugged in," and you can just roll out as much as you need.

Speaking of, I need to get some of the self-retracting electrical cord reels, maybe then extension cords and I can get along.

Plus with electric you might have a cordless fone, fridge, drill press, band saw etc etc etc always plugged in, but for me with air I'm only using one or two tools at a time and they don't stay "plugged in" 24/7..................so I just don't see the need for lots of air outlets. And very few air tools are stationary like a drill press. One or two outlets outside, tho.

EDIT: this one works well for me, comes with 30 ft but I replaced it with 50ft (fits fine)
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=40131

and I'm not certain but suspect this might be the same thing Northern sells under the "Rapid Reel" brand name for much more $$:
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&langId=-1&catalogId=4006970&PHOTOS=on&productId=200224724

at the very least the bodies and handles look identical. Wall mounts might be different,tho..........

[plunkinberry]

I work in a 2 car garage. My compressor is on the front wall. Line out to a flex line to black pipe up the wall and across the ceiling and down between the 2 garage doors. This is where I have my seperator/regulator/etc... One drop with a dirt leg. I screwed up and used unions and pipe dope and some of my connections lead, but I've heard tell that you need some real distance between the compressor and the seperator to cool the air so that the seperator can do its job and get the moisture out of the air.

Brass would be nice, but you'd need to sweat all those joints and it would be difficult to add stuff later - although the way I'm currently set up, it won't be easy to add stuff either... Whatever you do, don't use plastic.

I have been in shops that only use hose line.

[JohnnyJ]

The local costco has a hose reel, and I keep thinking about getting it, but I wonder if it is junk. Has anybody tried it?

I was watching "two guys garage" the other day on the speed channel, and I saw them putting in this quick connect stuff. I just check the web site and it costs about 2x what it would to plumb it. It did look cool, so those looking for the bling might like it. garage pak (http://www.garage-pak.com/)

My hookup is still the sad setup. Compressor in back of garage next to some shelves and a 50' hose to get it where I need it. I do hate the constant running over of the hoses and electrical with jacks or my creeper. If I thought I would be at this house more than a year or two, I would seriously think about setting it up better. Part of me still thinks it would make it worth it, even if I didn't get my money back when selling.

[Brandon]

I bought the $80 one from Harbor Freight half off and actually I reaaaally like it! It is in the middle of my garage and I use it for most of my stuff. My compressor is in the front corner and T's off to a hose that is coiled on the sideyard for stuff out there as well. I have PVC routed all the way around my garage, just need to run the down lines, I plan on having a couple or so near my bench so I can make some real short like 3' hoses for work on the bench, one poking out the front of my garage for air there, and one through the house to the other side where I have a small shed.

[tsm1mt]

http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/PlainGallery/album58/garage_5_air.sized.png

I went with 3/4" galvanized, because I've never worked with copper. Bought a cheap pipe threader, some pipe dope, and 100+' of 3/4" galvanized from Home Depot and a pile of elbows and other fittings.

I put a full circle in the attic, looping around, but leaving the center of the trusses open for access (for now, until it gets insulated).

I put a 5' tall (30gal?) upright air tank at the far end of the loop (from the compressor), and made it the lowest point, with a through-the-bottom-and-ceiling drain point.

The pipe came in 10' lengths, so when convenient, I put drops at the 10' mark. :D

8 drops, plus the drain, in my 34x28 shop, including the "supply" drop.

One drop in the ceiling on either side of my work bay. I have one 3/8x25' reel, and I'll get a 3/8'x50 for the other side.

Putting a reel on either side so I won't have to drag the hose over the hood, etc. to get to the other side.

If you look roughly at the end of the garage door track, just inside on the "far" end, and between the two door tracks in the center, you can make out the stubs coming through the ceiling. In the far corner you can see a pipe running down the wall, for another drop. Just above the window is the drain pipe coming from the tank.

http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/PlainGallery/shopMay2004/DCP_1519.sized.jpg

The one in the corner comes out of the top of the air tank in the ceiling. Air gets compressed by the compressor in the corner "behind/left" of the photographer, goes up the wall to the peak of the roof, where it enters the "full loop" supply system. It slopes down 34' to the far end of the shop, where the air tank is.

The "corner" drop takes air out of the top of this tank. This should be the driest air in the whole system, and will be used for painting when the time comes.

All other drops come from the "loop" system, and go "up" before going "over and down" to try and keep water in the "loop" (and ultimately, in the tank and the drain pipe) and out of the "drops".

This shows the corner drop better.

http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/PlainGallery/shopMay2004/DCP_0042.sized.jpg

So I'll have an overhead reel on either side of the work bay.

Gonna have a regular disconnect in the corner.

There's a drop coming down the wall between the two garage doors. Either between the doors, or in that corner again, will be the 100' manual wind reel for going outside.

Two drops above the work benches. One will probably just get a reel, the other will come down the wall to a disconnect, and will also "T" and run THROUGH the wall outside, to the back of the shop (the point about as far from the "between the garage doors" reel as possible).

Another drop in the opposite corner from the first will probably just come down to a disconnect for now, but will provide a good spot for a blow gun or something. This is also a potential location for an aux air compressor.

The compressor will be mounted above my oven. This is how I have it set up at my mom's:

http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/PlainGallery/2004reassemble392/DCP_0008.sized.jpg

Same basic idea, but I'm putting the 5hp 220 horizontal at my place and leaving the 1hp 2-stage 30gal 220 horizontal up there at mom's.

I'll supply the blast cabinet with a drop straight from the compressor, and probably have a quick connect in that general vicinity just because it's easy.

I've been tripping on a single host strung through the shop for too long. So now I'm overkilling. ;)

[AthlonAJ]

About using PVC, not a very good idea at all. Yeah yeah yeah, I know some guys have had it for years and no problems, blah blah, but it's not designed for compressed air so why use it? The place I used to rent had airline run using PVC, one day out running the DA and BOOM, plastic shrapnel fawking hurts!! Glad I was wearing my safety glasses at least. I have no clue why it burst, looked like it happened at a 90 joint that was in the corner, nothing else around it so not like it was damaged to my knowledge.

At my shop now I ran all copper line, use 1 hose reel for the bay and an outlet at the workbench and one where I do all the fab work. The plasma/welder is all on a cart where I run 2 hoses(weld gas/air) and electrical all bundled together, works slick. The hose reel is a cheapo Harbor Freight self rewinding job, doesn't leak yet and have had it for about 9 months.

[D60]

PVC contracts and expands too much with temperature changes, it will eventually fatigue and go boom as you discovered.

[AthlonAJ]

Funny part about that whole deal was my landlord blamed me for it and tried to make me pay for it. Granted it was only a couple bucks worth of material but I told him to shove it up his ass sideways, he should be thankful I didn't get hurt. Nevertheless I promptly unhooked my compressor from it.

[killertoy]

I have my 50x75 and adjacent 30x20 shop plummed for air with copper tubing every ten feet a fast coupler facing up at a 45 then every other one has a 6" piece with a drain petcock for water. The fast couplers got spendy but overall a prett nice setup I have 20' foot hoses so it reaches everywhere in the shop and we have multiple users so everyone is happy. It doesn't cure the hoses on the floor prob but it isn't that hard to rap up 20' hoses. All the tire changers, used oil furnace and bead blast cabinet are plumbed in directly to them because they do not need to be disconnected.

[Sixty-Ninth Airborne]

...All the tire changers, used oil furnace and bead blast cabinet are plumbed in directly to them because they do not need to be disconnected.


Used oil furnace? With compressed air? Huh?

[Firefyter_Emt]

Ok, Here is a question.. How many of you run 1/2" copper v's 3/4" copper. My compressor is mounted in the cellar of my house, I have not got it plummed yet. I have about a 30 foot run before it gets to the point where it will enter my garage. This point will be at floor level in the garage, but celing height in the cellar. There will also be a 90 degree corner at a wall about 10' to 15' from the compressor. I can get a good up hill run out of this, but I have few questions.. Being a 25x25 shop, I am mostly running only one hose at a time. I plan on one QD near the wall where it enters the shop. What is the best way to put a drain in if it enters from the floor? Also, I am thinking of running up into the attic and a installing a drop from the celing with a coiled hose over my work bench. I suppose installing a "T" at the celing height on the wall the line enters at and dropping the line back down would be the best, but is there another way to add a drop drain? How effective is a second tank added to the system at the celing right where the drop would come down for the main hose (not the workbench). And what size tank? The compressor is old, very old.. In fact, we are guessing pre 1940's due to the size of the motor and the HP rating. (It seems as they changed they way they rate the HP on motors in the late 30's and a 2hp motor is now like a 5hp+) It is maybe a 120-180 gallon tank (old Devillibs compressor)

Soo.. got any thoughts?

[D60]

Good questions................I'm only using 1/2" copper but I've got a short run to get into the shop, less than 15' of pipe. I don't know what sort of drop you'll see over a given length of line, but there's gotta be a chart out there somewhere, just like electrical.

I hadn't thought about the drain... I'm running a filter off the compressor, then I was going to run copper out of the shed (shed and shop are 3' apart), down into the ground (shallow) and then back up into the shop.

I'm doing this so I can still walk between the shed and shop

Do you guys think I'll have an issue w water collecting in the copper in the ground (lowest point)?

[pcorssmit]

I bought a self-rewinding (spring) Amflo hose reel with 50' of hose at bLowes for $80 a few months ago, and it works great. The hose isn't the absolute best, but I would say its good quality; better than the cheapie 50' I'd been using for several years until I got it. Keeps things so much neater. Someday I'll plumb the shop, but for now I just mounted the reel to the ceiling, and used the old line to supply it.

Pete

[tsm1mt]

Do you guys think I'll have an issue w water collecting in the copper in the ground (lowest point)?

Eventually.

It's nice n' cool underground, so that'll be a great moisture trap.. except it'll trap it in the middle of your air line, and condensate will be sitting directly against the pipe at the lowest point.

Will it be a problem in your lifetime? :shrug:

Water filter right off the compressor is the worst place for it, since the air is the hottest and holds the most moisture.

Ideal is to come out of the compressor, then zig zag up a wall in big, wide sweeps (think: big tranny cooler) but such that the water runs all the way back down the pipe to a drain. THEN come off the top (driest) go to where you want to use the air, and install a moisture trap there.

I'm told a "receiver" (spare tank) near a "big consumer" device is a good idea. It'll help make up for any lost efficiency in your piping.

As I noted above, I put a 30gal tank in my attic, upright. Air comes in near the bottom (after the rise out of the compressor, the air tank is the lowest point in the system, and about 40' from the compressor, as the pipe-goes).

For my driest air (for painting) I draw air from the top of this tank, but it still goes to a water vapor filter before going to a gun.

[snaps10]

ive got 2 of the costco reels in mine. i plumbed them with the hose i was replacing, going on 3 years no problems, very smooth, now i just need to move the compressor to a box outside, cuz that mug is loud when it runs.

[Scott@Rockstomper]

Somebody somewhere along the line plumbed my place with PVC... I've had problems with it. Haven't gotten to redoing it yet, but when I do, I'll use copper. Meantime, since the shop is so small, I can reach anywhere I need to with just a 50'-er off the compressor, so I get by on that.

[Firefyter_Emt]

I am glad I see a lot of people who have had problems with the PVC.. I was going to go that route, but had only heard one or two people against it.. Well, now it is a no brainer..

[PTSchram]

I'm not convinced not to use PVC.

My shop is plumbed with PVC for air, my laboratory was plumbed with PVC. Every lab I worked in had air lines run in PVC. I've used PVC for process plumbing for many years, running any of a number of aqueous compounds running through it, some pretty aggressive.

With 4500 sq. ft of shop, I'd hate to think how long it would take or how much it would cost to do it with something other than PVC.

So far, the only mistake I've made (other than those of you who tell me I shouldn't have used PVC) was using 3/4" PVC when I should have used perhaps 2" so I could have a bigger "tank" on the wall.

With regard to Harbor Freight reels, they leak! When it leaks badly enough that it becomes expensive, I'll worry about them.

[larryboy]

I am glad I see a lot of people who have had problems with the PVC.. I was going to go that route, but had only heard one or two people against it.. Well, now it is a no brainer..


osha noticed problems in 1988.

"Only one type of plastic pipe has been approved for use with compressed air. That pipe, Acrylonitrile-Butadiene-Styrene (ABS), is marked on the pipe as approved for compressed air supply.

By law, employers must protect their workers by avoiding the use of unapproved PVC pipe in such systems. Existing compressed air systems which use PVC piping must be completely enclosed, buried or adequately guarded according to specifications approved by a professional consulting engineer. "

http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html

[PTSchram]

Larryboy:
Thank you. That damned General Duty Clause gets you every time.

I have been thinking about this one for some time and was not able to come up with a reason not to continue to use PVC.

Now that we have a regulatory reason to avoid PVC in compressed air piping, somebody explain the reason for the failures with gases and not liquids (at ambient temperatures) and at pressures within the allowable limits for the pipe.


osha noticed problems in 1988.

"Only one type of plastic pipe has been approved for use with compressed air. That pipe, Acrylonitrile-Butadiene-Styrene (ABS), is marked on the pipe as approved for compressed air supply.

By law, employers must protect their workers by avoiding the use of unapproved PVC pipe in such systems. Existing compressed air systems which use PVC piping must be completely enclosed, buried or adequately guarded according to specifications approved by a professional consulting engineer. "

http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19880520.html

[Jeff Knoll]

Lots of good ideas... I would like to add a few more.

I have done a few air systems over the years both for commercial use and hobby. The first one I did was for Safari Gard about 12 years ago. I learned a few things from this Copper installation that is still in use.( heavy use)

The last one I did was for a paint and body shop and he has had good luck with the system over the last year.


please save yourself the possibility of injury. Dont use PVC. PVC sch 40 ( The white stuff) is not rated for this use. It has no ability to withstand UV rays and sunlight makes it brittle. It is my experience that it does not do well with oil and metal dust build up. Dropping a tool on it or sparks could be bad.

I use Type "L" copper It is spendy but will last a long time. It is twice the thickness of Type "M". Most of the systems I have done I use 3/4 and 1/2" for the most part. I have also used 2" for traps but found it to be over kill.

Remember that Copper does not like steel and should be isolated from your metal building.
The most important thing I have learned is that once there is water in your system You will play hell getting it out. Greg at Safari Gard has been dealing with wet air for years. I asked him if he wanted his Money back for the system about 4 years ago and tossed him a cold beer.( He got what he payed for) This being said I suggest You grade all your lines and install traps at every branch. I run the main at a 1/4 " per foot and reverse trap the branches down to the outlet. At each outlet I run a 3/4 or 1" piece past the outlet with a ball valve for a drain. The paint shop drains the system at the main drain every day and the branches every few weeks. The main drain has water every day. little comes out of the branches.

For conection I use a 1/2" FIP and adapt with a brass 1/2" X 1/4" bushing.

The one thing I have not come up with is a trick way of conecting the compressor to the system. I use a short piece of air line so that the compressor can vibrate. I would love to hear of a trick for this.

As far as pressure loss due to friction. I could not say, but I guess that someone on this board has a formula. I have noticed that the compressor runs longer but less often. Which may be good or bad depending on your out look.

I am starting to convert a barn to a shop so when I get around to running air I can add a write up to this thread for reference.


Great forum thanks for adding it.

[Hickeyjones]

I am starting to convert a barn to a shop so when I get around to running air I can add a write up to this thread for reference.

.PLease do! :beer:

[PTSchram]

Jeff:
Why the higher wall thickness? Are you concerned about oxidation on the inside?

OK, I hate the internet. After spending far too much time obsessing on why PVC pipe shouldn't be used, now I'm forced to research the specifications of various pipe sizes, etc. If Al Gore really had invented the interweb, would ASTM specifications be available free?

Alright, I'll be replumbing my shop air with copper. Even using the thinner wall type M, you have a six-fold safety margin at 100 PSI.

[D110pickup]

[QUOTE=Jeff Knoll]Lots of good ideas... I would like to add a few more.

The one thing I have not come up with is a trick way of conecting the compressor to the system. I use a short piece of air line so that the compressor can vibrate. I would love to hear of a trick for this.


Jeff,
I've used hydraulic hose to connect from the tank to the rest of the system. It can handle the pressure and the temperature of the compressed air.
The one on my system has been in use for about 8 years.
Mike

[95geo]

i have 1.5" schedule 40 pvc in my barn 30x50 plumbed from the compressor to almost all of the beams and quick connects at bench level there has been 120psi in the system for over 10 years in michigans climate and the only problem has been an over tightened (cracked) screw in adapter for the npt, its been hit with wrenches, sparks, parts and many other things. it might not be recomended for compressed air but my bender isnt recomended for .25 wall dom either, it has worked just fine also

[D60]

After speaking with a trusted friend this weekend I opted to not run my line in the ground, but rather overhead. It's not as clean an install, but if it provides trouble-free service, which I believe it will, I'm not concerned. Function before form.

As for the HF hose reels leaking, mine leaked badly when I first got it. I removed the end fitting at the snap ring and replaced an o-ring. Seems fine now.

As for Type M vs Type L copper, I worried a bit about this when I bought the supplies for my system. An engineer friend of mine referenced 3/4" Type M, and reports that it is rated for 200lbs continuous and has a burst point of ~4700 lbs. 1/2" (which I'm using) was actually rated for more, altho I don't recall how much, seems burst strength climbed above 6k lbs but I don't remember continuous rating.

This is off the top of my head, so if others have conflicting data, please post up. Of course I'm sure these figures are based upon a perfect pipe, any stress risers, knicks etc could compromise reliability me thinks.

And I agree Type L certainly seems a wiser choice, if for no other reason than that the thicker wall will withstand more abuse (dropped tools, flying parts, etc?).

[PTSchram]

As for the HF hose reels leaking, mine leaked badly when I first got it. I removed the end fitting at the snap ring and replaced an o-ring. Seems fine now.

As for Type M vs Type L copper, I worried a bit about this when I bought the supplies for my system. An engineer friend of mine referenced 3/4" Type M, and reports that it is rated for 200lbs continuous and has a burst point of ~4700 lbs. 1/2" (which I'm using) was actually rated for more, altho I don't recall how much, seems burst strength climbed above 6k lbs but I don't remember continuous rating.


And I agree Type L certainly seems a wiser choice, if for no other reason than that the thicker wall will withstand more abuse (dropped tools, flying parts, etc?).

1: Which O-ring, where, what size? Out with it man!! :flipoff2:

2: Last night's studying found that the thicker wall copper (type L?) had a continuous use rating of 600 PSI.

3: One of the standards I founds last night indicated that type M was acceptable for concealed (in-wall) use, but that L or K was indicated for exposed use, hence this may be why folks use the heavier wall for exposed use.

Learned a lot last night and now wish I hadn't used the PVC (but, not as concerned about my HF reels :flipoff2: )

Peace,
PT

[D60]

1: Which O-ring, where, what size? Out with it man!! :flipoff2:

3: One of the standards I founds last night indicated that type M was acceptable for concealed (in-wall) use, but that L or K was indicated for exposed use, hence this may be why folks use the heavier wall for exposed use.

1. You may not have the same reel as me. I think I linked to mine in an earlier post? If it's the same, it's where the air enters the reel, you'll see a snap ring (can't miss it). Just remove it and the end fitting slides off, revealing two o-rings IIRC. I don't remember if I replaced both, or just the outer one. It's a lot like an ARB. As for size, it came out of the o-ring "Storehouse" you can buy at HF. All that Storehouse stuff is REAL handy. The o-rings come in a red case.

3. yeah, I found that too. Seems to be code for residential plumbing. Commercial plumbing usually requires Type L regardless. But I'm not sure if many local codes even address air (not many homes have compressed air plumbed in them?)................or maybe plumbing is plumbing regardless of air or water?

Oh, and what about copper and steel? I'm anchoring my lines direct to my steel building, but it's painted. Is this gonna be an issue? If so, what should I watch for?

[Jeff Knoll]

: One of the standards I founds last night indicated that type M was acceptable for concealed (in-wall) use, but that L or K was indicated for exposed use, hence this may be why folks use the heavier wall for exposed use.


Bingo!

Type "L" is a bit more ridgid and less prone to damage. The higher rating does not hurt as well. You most likely would have no trouble with type "M" the sytem I did at Safari gard was "M" but They have bent a few of the lines after years of abuse. ( Still no leaks)


Steel pipe VS> copper?

Steel pipe works just as well as copper IMO. but is harder to work with. IT is heavier, more difficult to fix a leak, harder to add an additional line in, and is prone to rust.
I would guess rust is the last thing you want going through your paint gun.


For the ultimate air lines you can pony up and use stainless. But get out your visa, that shit is a bitch. You need special dies to thread it and they don't come cheap.



Oh, and what about copper and steel? I'm anchoring my lines direct to my steel building, but it's painted. Is this gonna be an issue? If so, what should I watch for?

I have strapped directly to steel at a buddies shop and have not seen any electrolisis (sp) so far.
Electrolisis ( SP) can occure when copper is strapped to steel. Water content would effect this. If your air is dry may not be a problem. Better to isolate it and forget about it. Plastic copper straps or felt would take care of the trouble.

I am sure some body can go into greater details about electrolisis (sp) but the short version is that the flow through the pipe can break down at the point in which copper and metal are touching. I have seen this in water piping in as little as two years. The flip side is that I have seen it only after 50 years as well. This being said I could not give a time period for this to happen. Somebody smarter than me or with more time could.


As far as still using PVC and it wont happen to me, and My brothers uncles sister has been using PVC for 20 years....... Some folks on this board use water pipe for there roll bars but that still don't make it right!

Just my.02 cents, enjoy.
Jeff

[dcs]

Oh, and what about copper and steel? I'm anchoring my lines direct to my steel building, but it's painted. Is this gonna be an issue? If so, what should I watch for?

Most steel siding is weak. It strips out easy when you screw into it & if its anything like my building it moves easily if you push on it. If your lucky you might have a purlin in the wall at the right height for the air fittings. I don't so I used toggle bolts, unistrut & spring nuts, and a steel plate like this:

http://www.4x4forum.com/air_line_wall_mount.jpg

It brings the air line out far enough to pull it out of the top like this:

http://www.4x4forum.com/air_line_top.jpg

The main line at the top slopes down hill about 1/8" per foot to a drain valve on the end.

[DVanVorous]

Larryboy:
Thank you. That damned General Duty Clause gets you every time.

I have been thinking about this one for some time and was not able to come up with a reason not to continue to use PVC.

Now that we have a regulatory reason to avoid PVC in compressed air piping, somebody explain the reason for the failures with gases and not liquids (at ambient temperatures) and at pressures within the allowable limits for the pipe.

Off the cuff, the gas laws dealing with changes in pressure and temp come to mind. Gasses are compressible and can change both temp and pressure with changes in volume, fluids dont have this characteristic. Its entirely possible to create a pressure change with a simple valve closure on a gas system that changes both the pressure and temp instantaneously with a resulting failure of the pipe if the pipe is only rated to "operating" conditions not elevated worst case conditions.

The other issue is that plastics are all combustible, sudden large shifts in flow and pressure increase temp resulting in a burnout. The elevated temp is enough to fail the pipe by literally buring it from the inside. They have a couple nice examples of this type of failure in the swagelock catalogue where someone used a flex line made of teflon and sst braid in an O2 circuit...

D.

[66CJdean]

I ram all of mine in soft copper befor I poored the slab. Works great! Each place I had a manifild come up I then ran it up the wall and tee'ed it and supported it with some superstrut. No leaks is a great thing and allot safer than the plastic I had in the old shop.

[D60]

Most steel siding is weak. It strips out easy when you screw into it & if its anything like my building it moves easily if you push on it.

Nah, it better not move. This particular building has no frame work to speak of; the corrugated (deep corrugations) steel IS the structure. I've anchored all my electrical boxes with sheet metal screws, and sure they strip if you get after them, but that's what the adjustable clutch on your cordless drill is for.

I was more concerned with interaction between dis-similar metals, but I'm not gonna worry about it for now.

[MOGXJ44]

I need some more ideas so I'm bringing back this thread. I am thinking of doing a 'loop' system for plumbing. There would be two compressors, one on each end. Each compressor would have a tee tied into the loop. How does 1/2" copper M tubing sound for volume and stregnth. I'm going to plumb it in the attic above the garage and have drops around the perimeter with quick connects.

For those of you wanting to mount your copper tubing directly to a metal structure, dissimilar metals will corrode each other. They need to be separated by an insulator like this (http://www.unistrut.com/Browse/cat_detail.php?S=S06&P=Cush-A-Clamp).
Travis

[PAToyota]

Here is a chart of the pressure ratings for copper piping:

http://www.coppercanada.ca/publications/pub28E/images/table6.jpg

As you can see by the numbers, Type M will probably work for the pressures that most of us are using. However, by code it is only for concealed use in residential projects as far as water plumbing goes (as was noted). Even small commercial projects you are required to go up to Type L.

There is plastic piping that is spec'd for pressurized air and gases. However, it is more expensive than the Schd. 40 you pick up at Lowes or HD. Also, as has been noted, when plastic fails you get shrapnel. If copper fails it just rips open and chances are slim that anything will go flying. That alone is reason for me to stay away from the plastic stuff.

The GaragePak stuff looks bling, but the cost is too high in my book. I also wonder about the thermal capabilities of thin wall aluminum and whether it will cool the air enough to condense the moisture out of it.

[kledder]

Let me start this by saying I am not very familiar with plumbing, But to the guys using copper, are you soldering your connections or flaring them. Also, with copper can you use compression fittings.

On a side note, has anyone used "hard plastic lines" for this application. I plumbed on board air on my jeep using lines from my local freightliner dealer. He said they used them for air brakes on all their rigs. Any info would be appreciated as I am about 3 months from being in a new 4 car garage.

[PAToyota]

Copper is typically "sweated" or soldered. I'm not sure that you could get flared fittings for the larger sizes, generally I use flared fittings for small copper tube. I think that compression fittings are available, but sweating copper pipe is easiest in my opinion.

On the "hard plastic lines" -- I'm not sure about the specific product you are mentioning from the Freightliner dealer but reread the second paragraph in my post below the chart and also the other posts about plastic shrapnel.

[kledder]

PA Toyota...thanks for the info. I have used half inch od copper in other systems before with flare fittings, however, I do agree sweating would be easier. In regards to the plastic, I would never use PVC as I have seen that explode first hand in the Potato cannon world. However the material I used from freightliner was actually a 1/2 in id. I used a razorblade to cut it and compression fitting to connect it all up well except for the connections under the hood. I think that the heat buildup at long run times causes the tube to blow off. I think I will be going the copper route myself. Is there any special techniques to use for sweating these. I assume just some sand paper on the end, a bit of flux and sweat away, or is it more complicated. Thanks

By the way, where in PA are you?

[Reflexx]

Kledder,

I just spent some time with a plumber who has done more copper piping than most humans. here's his 2c:

Use K if you can afford it. He tells people to remember "K" for "kompressor"

Use L is fine for pressures under 200psi.

Don't use M, just not worth it when compared to the cost/safety difference.

as for sweating:

1. sand both parts with 150-200 grit.

2. use liberal amounts of EVERFLUX - the best stuff out there, and he's tried many!

3. use MAPP GAS with a trigger gun.

4. sweat and solider then quench with a wet rag SLOWLY!

5. 3/4" pipe, unless cost is the issue. Starving air tools suck.


This is just what i learned this weekend, so don't count on this 100%. I watched him fix some lines and bugged him with a million questions. He's confident enough to say that I should hide my lines in the walls. I'll still run them outside the walls, in case I want to expand.

REFLEXX

[wetnsloppy4x]

Heres a few shots of the system I installed in my garage last year. The compressor sits between the front garage doors. All line is copper. The main line is 1" which runs over each door then takes a 90* and makes the 60' run to the back of the garage to the rear drive thru door. The drops are 3/4", one on each side of the car doors and one drop by the man door. I tried to use the biggest pipe I cound afford for extra capacity. The parts list still came out to around $500 after wiring in a new 220 outlet. The old compressor sat in the back of the garage.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=196066&stc=1
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=196070&stc=1
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=196067&stc=1
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=196068&stc=1 http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=196069&stc=1
The higest point in the system is at the compressor. Each leg has a 1" per 10' drop to the ends with water traps at each end. Each drop also has its own water drain, just in case.

[Kartracer55]

I think everythign has been covered, but Ill post anyway.

Always T your drops out the top and loop them down, and T the regulator and hose out the side of the drop, and install a little ball valve to get rid of any crap that is at the botton of ht drop.

Install a filter as far down the line as possible, but before your first drop. IF you are going to make a loop around the shop with air lines, Install a filter before each of the frist drops.

If you have, or know somebody with a grainger account, go there and pick up a short peice of braided steel hydraulic hose, 3/4 ID.

Copper lines are fine, and you can sweat them ith 95/5 tin/antimony solder, no need to braze, but if you have an O/A setup and you know how to braze, go for it. I ran 3/4 lines, because I only had about 40 feet to run, and the compressor only puts of 20cfm. If it were any more or any longer, Id go up to one inch lines. I used 3/8 body quick connectors, so I can simply connect a hose to whicher drop I need, and that saves space.

ALways use a filter and regulater, never an oiler. High PSI will screw up an air motor, and so will dust and other shit in the lines.

Jim

[speedaholic]

Don't know the cost but I have used this at work and its great. You may end up saving if you count your labor. http://www.irgaragesolutions.com/SimplAir_EL_Brochure.pdf

[geberhard]

I am using a 30 gallon tank base (BTW Sears has a sweet deal with heavy duty tools for $300, not bad at all. I added a 10 gallon tank closer to the front of the garage by the attic. On center of garage installed a reel, similar to gas stations (I think got from Sears or Harbor Freight), and workes really kick ass! the extra tank, I created a "T" and ball joint type switch to lock away from the system once it is loaded. The advantage is some extra air in the system, and I can run them separate if I need to do a couple things at a time (i.e. running a couple tools). The 10 gallon is low duty, but allows some extra felxibility :)

Gui

[Kartracer55]

I am using a 30 gallon tank base (BTW Sears has a sweet deal with heavy duty tools for $300, not bad at all. I added a 10 gallon tank closer to the front of the garage by the attic. On center of garage installed a reel, similar to gas stations (I think got from Sears or Harbor Freight), and workes really kick ass! the extra tank, I created a "T" and ball joint type switch to lock away from the system once it is loaded. The advantage is some extra air in the system, and I can run them separate if I need to do a couple things at a time (i.e. running a couple tools). The 10 gallon is low duty, but allows some extra felxibility :)

Gui

Watch out with that second 10 gllon tank. If your compressor is a 30 gallon, it probably isnt the most powerful thing in the world, so, no doubt your expierience a lack of air when using the hungrier tools like a die grinder. with that extra tank, its more air that the compressor has to pump before it reachers shut of PSI, so if you run out of air, you will have to wait longer for it all to pump up. the only time the extra tank would benefit is when you have a huge compressor that pumps up fast, and you will be doing something like painting, where all that extra air really helps.

Jim

[geberhard]

Hi Jim,

yep agree, the compressor has a 3 hp, pretty decent for air tools, but nice to have an extra if a bud or myself are running a couple tools at the same time for a few minutes. I normally fill up, and leave the small tank locked out of the system.

Gui

[High5]

i just used 3/4" galvanized pipe with threaded fittings. i have one QD about 4ft off the ground on the back wall and then it runs up and over the rafters to the front of the shop. i have a 25' hose reel in the rafters in the back and a 50' reel in the front. works great and no hoses to trip over.