Tubing Notchers...

[doctor_cad]

What are you guys using to notch your tubing?

Drill Motor/Hole Saw Jig?

Metal Lathe?

[preach]

Cheapo HF notcher. works fine for my needs. runs on the drill press.

[Spawn_X]

http://www.jd2.com/images/TN-100/TN100.JPG

[BigWoodyWag]

I got this one:
http://www.pro-tools.com/hsn500.htm

but should have spent the extra chedder and got this one
http://www.pro-tools.com/hsn501i.htm

I find myself limited on angles with mine, and think that the extra adjustability would ease some fab jobs and require less grinder work.

[socalchef]

i had the harbor freight notcher, the bolts stripped out. i jammed bigger bolts in but i ended up getting an hsn 500 pro tools version for $90 on ebay. i like it a lot better.

[broncofreak2000]

Ive got the JD2 model from VanSant Enterprises nice high quality cnc machined notcher. I bought a HF model and it was cheap made and didn't notch the tubing on center, you get what you pay for.

[THURENfab.]

Made my own.... does any angle .....

[doctor_cad]

Made my own.... does any angle .....


now THAT is kick ass. How does the tube clamp work??

[BadDog]

Chop saw
Grinder
Plasma
HF notcher

In that order. HF is used only for near 90s and "highly visible" joints. 2 little 45s on the chop saw and a touch up with the grinder is faster for most, but not as good "fit-up".

[RustyNailJustin]

Grinder... might be slow but you can make perfect fit once you get good at it. I use a hole saw to get the basic shape then grind to the best fit fish mouth.

[jeeplord]

Miller Spectrum Thunder 230V

http://www.weldingmart-1.com/Qstore/custom/spectrumthunder.gif

Does any angle you can imagine

[doctor_cad]

Thanks for the replies.

We use patterns developed in Autocad and printed out to be wrapped around the pipe at the shipyard I work at. The line is transferred from the pattern, then cut with a torch. Thats on heavy pipe though...

I guess theres no reason why you cant do the same and use a torch on tubing. Pbly spend more time cleaning it up than just cutting the whole fishmouth with a hard disk on the mini grinder though. Jeez, I wish I could justify a plasma!

[JeepinDoug]

Thanks for the replies.

We use patterns developed in Autocad and printed out to be wrapped around the pipe at the shipyard I work at. The line is transferred from the pattern, then cut with a torch. Thats on heavy pipe though...

I guess theres no reason why you cant do the same and use a torch on tubing. Pbly spend more time cleaning it up than just cutting the whole fishmouth with a hard disk on the mini grinder though. Jeez, I wish I could justify a plasma!

Like this? (http://geek.casaforge.com/code/newform_m.php)

[doctor_cad]

Same idea, yep. I just draw up the members as solids so they run past the intersection point, and use a boolean subtraction.

1st Step:

[doctor_cad]

2nd Step:

[doctor_cad]

3rd Step: Subdivide perimeter into equal parts, and extend lines to cutting profile.

[doctor_cad]

Final Step: Take projected lines off tube and lay them out on a flat surface. This forms the pattern... Notice this tube was intersected at a 15* angle. Concept works for any angle.

[THURENfab.]

now THAT is kick ass. How does the tube clamp work??


I think you can see it from this pic.... I kinda just threw this together to see how it worked before the final design .... It works great and holds the tube really tight.... I just did some notches that were in the middle of a bend and they were soooooo easy compared to my ol' HF POS......

[Cannon Motorsports]

We use the JD2 notcher, and I love it. I woulda bought the pro tools, but I can get the JD2 for 100$. Those are the best notchers, the joint jigger, and the hf one suck. Don't settle for anything less.

[DRM]

I have the HF notcher - and personally, it sucks. Gonna have to look into modifying it to fix as many of the problems as I possibly can, because as it stands right now - I hate using it.

[toymoto]

I use the HF notcher and Greenlee Holesaws. It's a love/hate relationship. It's easier to make saddles than with the chopsaw and grinder but I have sprained and almost broken my wrist several times with it. The guide for the shaft has wallowed out causing the holesaw to catch and fling my skinny ass around.

On my next project it will be mounted to the drill press.

[doctor_cad]

I thought there would be priblems catching with the hole saws. They are grabby on flat plate, cant imagine on tubing... I guess the hot setup is to get a plasma and use some sort of comp. generated template. OR, fab up a sweet ass setup like THURENfab.

[Cannon Motorsports]

The trick to making a nice cut and making your holesaw last forever, is the slow the drill down, and move a a nice constant pace. Use cutting oil and keep the metal cool. This way, the holesaw never catches on the metal.

[JeepinDoug]

Here's the ultimate notcher for perfect coping but way too pricey for me. It shouldn't be too bad to build one though.
http://www.mittlerbros.com/images/2004%20Images/Ultimate%20Notcher_small.jpg
Mittler's site (http://www.mittlerbros.com/)

[doctor_cad]

Could do the same thing as that Mittler thing with a lathe and a creative tool rest/tube clamp

[doctor_cad]

JeepinDoug, that applet is great. Much faster than the cad way i showed... thanx :D

[JeepinDoug]

Yep, any cheap engine lathe with a tool post, infact it would be easy to cope on a radius using a bending die as tube fixture.

[TR]

any one ever use a hydraulic tubing notcher from mittler bros?

http://www.mittlerbros.com/images/2004%20Images/Hyd%20Tube%20Notcher%20STD.jpg

[DRM]

Yep, any cheap engine lathe with a tool post, infact it would be easy to cope on a radius using a bending die as tube fixture.


Hmmm.... I have an old cheap wood lathe I nabbed form the dump last year - Wonder if I could build it to work.

Would you use some kind of end mill attachment, or a standard hole saw? What kind of speeds should it turn at (I would have to re-work the pulley arrangement likely).

Thanks!

[PTSchram]

Hmmm.... I have an old cheap wood lathe I nabbed form the dump last year - Wonder if I could build it to work.

Would you use some kind of end mill attachment, or a standard hole saw? What kind of speeds should it turn at (I would have to re-work the pulley arrangement likely).

Thanks!
David:
I'm in the same boat as I have a headstock to a South Bend lathe that is currently taking up space. The only problem with a wood lathe is that you likely don't have a lead screw to advance the vise into the cutter, also they usually aren't as rigid as a metal lathe. Neither is insurmountable.

I've been thinking about the cutting tool and think either would be acceptable, but the hole saws would be far less expensive. If you're only notching one size of tube, you could use a mill bit or annular cutter. In my case, I never know what size of material I'll be using so I'll probably go with the hole saw. On the same track, I'm trying to figure out how I can lower the vice or raise the headstock to keep the centerline on center for different sizes of tubing.

This project is getting closer to the point where I'll need to decide how I'm gonna do it.

Peace,
PT

[DRM]

Good info.

I may sit down this weekend and figure out if I can combine parts from the lathe and the HF notcher to get something workable. Heck - I also have a small cheap HF drill press I wouldn't have a problem with hacking up to come up with a dedicated tube notching device of some kind.

Using the lathe and some kind of milling bit, combined with some kind of home made way to advance the tube...

Or maybe just modify the cheap drill press (table mount style) to have the tube jig and clamp assembly permanently located where it needs to be.

[PTSchram]

David:
I found this earlier today, but ran out of time to post it. Looking at this, it is clear that the C/L of the tubing won't change if your vise has the capacity to accept all sizes fo tubing you would encounter.

From this picture, I can envision any of a number of ways to both run the cutter, advance the tubing into the cutter, and orienting the vise to the cutter.

I have the headstock and an X-Y table (very rusty from sitting in a falling-down garage). I may begin a mock-up to help me visualize the various relationships.

The sad and funny thing is that most of my applications of notched tubing is never for anything as much fun as tube buggies or roll cages-sigh.

If I get a chance, I'll start mocking something up this weekend and I'll try to post some pics by Monday.

Man, I love the Pirate board. Where else can you discuss such topics?

Peace,
PT

[DRM]

You'll have to pardon my ignorance, I am unfamiliar what to call the parts & pieces.

Basically, this is what my cheap lathe looks like:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/photos/90200-90299/90265.gif

If there is enough thread on the tail adjuster, I could just fix the tube near the end of the hole saw and use the hand wheel to advance the tube into the hole saw.

[PTSchram]

I don't know if that will have enough horsepower to run a hole saw. You might be better off putting a cross slide drill press vise on the bed (the base that everything else bolts to) rather than trying to use the tailstock to advance the tubing into the cutter. Also, how would you fasten the tubing to the tailstock?

Take the tool rest and tailstock off. Build a bracket from the bed ways to hold you drill press vise and make bigger jaws for your drill press vise (a la the one pictured above) and you might just be good to go. If you're lucky, the threads on the headstock will match a chuck to hold the hole saw.

IMO the quality of the cut is determined by the strength of the holder of the tubing. It should be as rigid as you can get it.

[JeepinDoug]

You'll have to pardon my ignorance, I am unfamiliar what to call the parts & pieces.

Basically, this is what my cheap lathe looks like:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/photos/90200-90299/90265.gif

If there is enough thread on the tail adjuster, I could just fix the tube near the end of the hole saw and use the hand wheel to advance the tube into the hole saw.

It might be able to run a hole saw but feeding the tube would be a PITA. If your gonna fab a nice notcher might as well build it to run a roughing-endmill.
This is a roughing-endmill;
http://www.toolbuyersnetwork.com/images/400-7500.jpg
The serrated flutes stand up very well to really tough cuts over a standard endmill;
Standard shown here.
http://www.cnccarbidetools.com/images/Web%20Site%20Pics/Resharpening%20End%20Mill%20reduced%20600.jpg
If you buy one don't bother with the gold coated ones (TiNi coating), that coating is only for high speed/feed production, save your money.

If I was thinking of building one I'd look for a nice set of ball-slides from McMaster-Carr, some Acme all-thread, a 1-2 hp motor and a cheap large v-block for a cheap import machine vice. The rest could be made with scrap beside the gear reduction box. I never looked for a resource on those but most these motors run 1750 rpms which would be a bit higher than I'd like to run.
We really do need someone to invest some time and research into a homebuilt notcher that can be built from easily aquired materials and not the lucky find stuff like a working cross-slide from an auction for $10.

[PTSchram]

We really do need someone to invest some time and research into a homebuilt notcher that can be built from easily aquired materials and not the lucky find stuff like a working cross-slide from an auction for $10.

How about using a $35 HF cross-slide drill press vise? V-block large enough to accomodate the biggest tubing you'll use?

The fancy notcher I posted a pic of appeared to use a Kurt-style milling vise, but if you were to use a cross-slide with a swivel base, you'd have nearly the same thing for far less.

[doctor_cad]

Pbly wanna run the end mill at around 250-500 RPM. Could rig up a double reduction v-belt system, like on an older knee mill. Need about 6:1 ratio. Also, i think the feed on the tube clamp could be manual, with a handwheel on the acme leadscrew.

[JeepinDoug]

Both you guys got some good ideas. I think I'm gonna quit wrenchin tonight and start browsing some catalogs.
I would love to see a notcher that can notch a straight or bent piece. So many times I've had to cope into a radius by hand, what a headache that is. Maybe a swivel base with a coupler, something like a 2" receiver without all the slop. You could drop in a v-block vice or a radius vice made from some fat tubing to support the inside radius of the tube.
Ok, I'm getting ahead of myself, how about a removable vice with the option to expand later.
I'm hitting the McMaster-Carr bible.

[jelbehai]

I was browsing an old Surplus Center catalog, and they have these "gear motors", and one seemed like it might be good for a dedicated notcher: 163 rpm, ~1hp (at that rpm :eek: ), and was a little over a $100... Set up a couple pulley blocks to hold it tight and chuck, mated to a stiff table with a sliding table/vise - am I missing something?

I'm thinking for less than 4-500 bucks I could have a notcher which is comparable to the expensive ones above (note I'm a hobbyist!). Yes or no? Might be a fun little project.

[doctor_cad]

Speed depends on the diameter of the cutter you wanna use, and that seems a bit slow for 1.75 tube. Great idea though.

Im interested in thsi surplus catalog. Do they have anything in the 250rpm range? Also, is it AC or DC?

[doctor_cad]

If you wanted to make a production tool, you could use this motor:

90 psi shop air
25 Ft Lbs Torque @ 280Rpm
~1/2Hp

A little weak maybe, but you get the idea!

[AIRZUKI]

the cutters that the mittler bro's device uses are called annular cutters ( essentially like a hole saw made from high speed steel ) you can get them from KBC tools ( as well as arbors to mount them )

[jelbehai]

Im interested in thsi surplus catalog. Do they have anything in the 250rpm range? Also, is it AC or DC?

The motor I saw in the catalog was AC, and there was another similar ~250rpm. They don't show it on their website (anymore) though... Surplus Center (http://www.surpluscenter.com/)

[JeepinDoug]

This beast is 360rpm at 1 hp but $179. It may worth it cause the drive shaft diameter is nice for a cutting arbor.
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004070411311704&item=5-1056&catname=electric
I need to see how I can affix an Bridgeport style R8 collet to the shaft, it may be cheaper to use a Hardinge 5c collet and spindle from a cheap indexable tooling fixture. Something like this;
http://www.use-enco.com/ProductImages/0967202-11.jpg

[PTSchram]

This beast is 360rpm at 1 hp but $179. It may worth it cause the drive shaft diameter is nice for a cutting arbor.
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004070411311704&item=5-1056&catname=electric
I need to see how I can affix an Bridgeport style R8 collet to the shaft, it may be cheaper to use a Hardinge 5c collet and spindle from a cheap indexable tooling fixture. Something like this;
http://www.use-enco.com/ProductImages/0967202-11.jpg

Fawk that, use a big jacobs chuck. Much easier. With flats on the cutter, you'll be all set.

[JeepinDoug]

The problem with a Jacobs chuck is the endmill will need a 1/2" shank for a tool that may be 1.75". And the larger Jacobs chuck is big money, the small ones are expensive already. With a colleting system you have options with shank size up to 1-1/16"-1-1/8". Ofcourse if your planning on using a holesaw a chuck would be fine but I wouldn't waste time and money to build an elaborate jig-o-joint.
Most decent Jacob chucks also use a Morse taper. I guess you can rob an old drill press for the shaft, which would not be a bad idea.
Does anyone know of a voltage regulator for that can be used with the motor I posted above. The 360 rpm isn't scary fast but it would be nicer to trim it down a little.

[doctor_cad]

Unless Im missing something, thats a sqirrel cage AC motor... only way to vary the speed is to vary the frequency of the power, need an inverter $$$

[BadDog]

Why do you need direct drive? Just put it on a belt, or gear it if you like and have access to a supply cheap, but you can get whatever you need then, and use cheaper, low power, higher rpm motors...

I think a real collet with draw bar would be mandatory if your gonna use a fluted cutter. Vibration will kill a jacobs press on from a regular drill press.

[JeepinDoug]

Unless Im missing something, thats a sqirrel cage AC motor... only way to vary the speed is to vary the frequency of the power, need an inverter $$$

I don't know much about motors, all I seen was AC, 115v, 360 rpms and 1 hp. I don't think it matters whether it's gear or pulley, personally I'd like the gear just to consolidate components. Belts should have guards but the variable rpms would be cool.

[Trick-Tools.com]

Hey guys, we have a bunch of the notchers you mention available, the good ones that is!! We have the monster Ultimate like seen above, plus the JD2 TN-100 billet aluminum and the Joint Jiggers too. They are built heavier than the HF version, a little more money, but well worth it!

Just a note, we have found that using hole saws with a fine tooth pattern works the best, like a Sioux or Morse brand. When you have a big tooth every third one it causes chattering and breaks your adapter on the notcher too!

Check out our website or email me, we've got some nice options!

[DRM]

FYI, I had to notch some more tube last night (Reluctantly) and thought I would update what I am currently using. Basically it is one of those cheap table-top HF stype drill presses, with the clamping portion of a the HF tube notcher bolted to the work plate.

No measurable angle changes, but I have the ability to spin the clamp around some, as well as move the work plate around the stand pole AND tilt the angle of the table. Using all of this, I can get just about any angle on the tube I need.

I have found that hole says in general are NOT precision pieces, so some have a LOT of runout. Oh well, what do you expect for a couple of $$$ each.

I also found that running the table (and consequently the tube) up as close to the hole saw as possible really helps with keeping the hols saw from deflecting as much.

About the biggest problem is the cheap drill press just does not have the pulley's to bring it down to a slow enough speed for my taste. Still, it cuts ok.

I will try to get pics of the setup tonight when I get home.

[PTSchram]

About the biggest problem is the cheap drill press just does not have the pulley's to bring it down to a slow enough speed for my taste. Still, it cuts ok.

I will try to get pics of the setup tonight when I get home.

David:
I recently saw a pic on the internet (D'Oh) of a drill press where the owner had put an additional pair of larger diameter pulleys atop the existing ones to slow the spindle down. You might consider this if your wish to make a dedicated notcher out of your drill press. Of course, I don't remember where I saw it :flipoff2:

[DRM]

David:
I recently saw a pic on the internet (D'Oh) of a drill press where the owner had put an additional pair of larger diameter pulleys atop the existing ones to slow the spindle down. You might consider this if your wish to make a dedicated notcher out of your drill press. Of course, I don't remember where I saw it :flipoff2:

Well, this cheap drill press was purchased for like $60 from Big Lots (Same as Odd Lots, overstock crap store) around 5 years ago. It is pretty much crap for anything else, so I have no problem using it as a dedicated drill just for notching.

And yes, my next project would be to find out what speed I need and modify the pulley arrangement to meet that.

[AthlonAJ]

I tried using my JD notcher on the drill press for awhile and found anything angled sucked because of the tube hitting the floor. So I now have it mounted on the bench and it's working great. Nice thing about using it on the bench is that I have some setup blocks that are the same height as the notcher so I can easily take a piece of tube and lay it down on the bench (especially bent tubes), get my angles setup just right. Running a Dewalt triple gear reduction drill, seems to be a really good speed and plenty of power.

One thing that made a big difference was the holesaws. Until recently I ran the standard variable pitch tooth saws, tried Lenox, DeWalt(sucks the most), Starrett, Blu-Mol and liked the Blu-Mol the best. But just switched to the Sioux fine tooth from VanSant and damn what a big difference. Cuts smoother, cleaner and so far it's holding up excellent.

[PTSchram]

Running a Dewalt triple gear reduction drill, seems to be a really good speed and plenty of power.



Here you go David, just get your buddy Adan to send you a triple reduction drill :flipoff2:

If you don't like it, just sell it on eBay :D

[BadDog]

Best way to REALLY slow it down is mount another spindle off to the side with multi drive pulleys on it. Then drive to side spindle, side spindle to front spindle. Like stacked transfer cases... Friend of mine can go down to about 50 rpms on an old 3/4"(?) commercial drill press he modified like this.

[Hickeyjones]

You probably saw that modified drill press withe the extra pullies on www.backyardmetalcasting.com

[ChiScouter]

I recently saw some guys using a specialized stationary belt sander to notch tube. It has a adjustable vice table just like that mittler unit, but it forces the tube into the end roller to do the notching. This is a specialized machine just for this purpose. The belt is about 8 inches wide and the vice handles can be spun to go back and forth thus using the entire width of the belt. They have different sized end rollers to use with different size tubing. It is fast and badass. They have 4 guys building cages all day long and report that the belts last a few days.

[JeepinDoug]

If anyone is interested I found this recently, Millrite 110v mill. It's still the basic Bridgeport platform without the frills. Comes with a Kurt vice. The guy is asking $800, he's in SF, CA.
His email;
jakob440@earthlink.net

[hotcowboy76]

has anyone used the manual notcher from jd?

[cruiserrg]

I notch two ways.

1st if its a std notch I have a HF nother and use lenox hole saws. I just clamp the tube in a bench vise, clamp the notcher on and use a 1/2" old drill. Just add some cutting oil. Works well, could be a nicer notcher, but I don't use it a lot.

2nd most of my notches have more that 2 tubes joining and are at odd angles and at bend points where a notcher isn't pratical. I just use a tube master profiler to get the layout of the notch and transfer to the tubing. I then use a 4.5" grinder to make the notch.

[4130]

Ok, so after reading this thread, trying to best figure my equipment options, I remembered that I have a plasma doing nothing.....(yeah dumb I know!).

It was bought a few years ago for a job and has not been touched since, I have little experience personally with plasma.

What would be the best way to notch 4130 tubes in various angles with the plasma? (I have quite alot to do, as the project is an aircraft fuselage).

Obviously marking the tube with the fantastic program linked above, but how to jig the actual cut?

Any help would be much appreciated!

Thankyou, 4130..