Y'all Redenck Handgun shooters check in here!!!

[copeland]

I need some help...A local shop carries handguns now...I -- MUST -- HAVE -- ONE!

So they Carry Norinco...which I don't mind sinceI have an SKS which I enjoy...However I can't help but keep thinking they are cheap chinese garbage.
I want to purchase, due to cost one of the following (which I'll link in a sec.)
But am confused as to whether to go with the trusty 1911 .45 Norinco or the P-226 Norinco. I have fired a friends sig p226 and it was nice, but I prefered a glock for balance.

However between these two...which may be a more advantageous weapon? I will be target shooting...including possible IPSC enlisting.

Now I have never fired a .45 but have seen the "drop a 9mm through the barrel to prove how much larger a .45 bore is"

So opinions of the two which may serve my needs better. Also, I'm buying "cheap chinese" as the advantage being that the chassis of either handgun will hold either companies stock and aftermarket parts.

now to pimp the firearms :
Np-22 (sig 226) http://www.marstar.ca/Norinco/NP-22.htm
1911-a1 (1911 .45 acp) http://www.marstar.ca/Norinco/M-1911A1.htm

insight is much appreciated as always...

[copeland]

nice little pimp of the Norinco brand...

"much-improved quality control of North China Industries’ manufacturing facilities and consequently of the products they produce, coupled with extremely attractive pricing, has made Norinco a leading choice amongst Canadian hunters and recreational shooters."

[RocKrawler]

I especially like the "Note: we cannot ship Norinco firearms to clients in the U.S." banner at the top of the second linked page... I prefer IMI, HK and SIG. You get what you pay for.. going to a Norinco 1911 is like getting a Countach body on a Fiero chassis.. looks similar, but drop the hammer & you'll feel the difference.

[SUE ROVR]

Spend a few dollars more and get a glock. I found a nice used one for $325

[Weasel]

it's not a Sig if it's not made by Sig. I've seen P229's used for 400-500. I'm suprised you like the glock's balance better as I prefered the Sig(P229) far more over the glock. Everyone's different though.

[copeland]

Yeah Thanks guys, I know I should be buying the brand specific manufacturers...

However I'm on a budget to get into shooting more aggressively/competitively...and as for the countach body on a fiero frame...good analogy. I think maybe the other way...the chassis to the firearm is supposedly stout it's the other parts (grips, etc) that may want to be swapped and since you can swap brand name and aftermarket parts...you could look at it like motorcycles...buying a Honda to make it look like a harley...

so since there hasn't been any real concerns (The get what you pay for is fair enough) I'm wondering about calibers...the great .45 to 9mm debate...

Things I should consider
pricing in ammo
stopping power (I liked the 9mm sharp yet soft recoil...is a .45 much more powerful?) I do believe I heard a competition .45 and man it's sounds went right through your chest with every round fired...

So basically I'm a cheap ass, and I just want a good cheap gun to become further involved in shooting...I hope more insight will follow to direct me. This isn't to say I won't one day buy a brand name firearm, but for now I think it best to step into the sport lightly.

[Wolverine]

I have a SIG p220.

[Pazuzu]

so since there hasn't been any real concerns (The get what you pay for is fair enough) I'm wondering about calibers...the great .45 to 9mm debate...

Things I should consider
pricing in ammo
stopping power (I liked the 9mm sharp yet soft recoil...is a .45 much more powerful?) I do believe I heard a competition .45 and man it's sounds went right through your chest with every round fired...
.

Now, I don't know anything about comp shooting, but wouldn't you want the most comfortable, softest gun possible? Why not a .22 comp pistol? It seems like even a 9mm would be a detriment with any recoil at all, for speed and accuracy. I can shoot a .22 about 20% faster than a 9mm, with similar results...a good comp .22 has essentially no recoil.

Now, if you want a gun to have by the bedside too, then yes, the .45 kicks a hell of a lot harder than the 9...doesn't mean it's too much, but yes, it kicks hard. Hard enough that I would never consider using a .45 for fast accurate comp shooting...

[Frankie_Bones]

Get an HK USP .45.... On second thought Don't!

[Ropeburn]

Check out this forum for info on 1911s, tons of info!

http://forums.1911forum.com/

[SilverZuk]

I would suggest skipping on the Norinco pistol.

I have owned, and still do, several Norinco SKS. They all were good rifles because they were a rifle made for the military and then stamped by norinco to sell to the public. I have a Norinco 1897 Winchester pump 12 ga I shoot in cowboy action matches - It's junk.
The wood appears to be "Sawdust board" painted burgandy, the stock is coming loose, the nut that holds the forearm stripped the first day, we drilled it and put a set screw in it. The action is extremely stiff even after being shot several thousand times, and the fit and finish is scores a Zero in my book.

[nakona]

Hold on, just a fucking minute...


I've actually owned two Norincos.

1) A Tokarev 9mm

2) An M1911 .45


I've also shot more .45's than most of y'all have SEEN.


I'm here to tell you that the Norinco M1911 is an excellent quality pistol.

At the time I bought one, I read in a gun magazine (I don't recall which one), that it terms of metallurgy and fit & finish, the Norinco was actually of better quality than some American .45's they'd tested, INCLUDING ones from Colt!

I put literally thousands of rounds through it, and it NEVER jammed, NEVER failed to feed, and was highly accurate.


Now, if you buy a USED one, you of course have to pay attention to what sort of condition it's in, but Norincos are probably the best VALUE in .45's that you can find.

Why?

Because of people like the ones on this thread, most of whom have never fired one, who have an inaccurate perception of Norinco's quality and drive the price down.

In fact, and this will be my last comment on this post; I have fired exactly ONE M1911 that was noticably better than the Norinco M1911, and that one was a Kimber.

[SilverZuk]

There you have it.
I was basing my quality on the shotgun, which in my opinion was junk.
I was also not impressed with a Tokarev that I have shot.
I thought the fit and finish on it was very poor, the trigger was murder to pull, and the overall gun I consider junk.

I will have to check out there 1911 and see what I think.
I wonder who is making the 1911 for them?
From what I understand they are an arms broker, not a manufacturer.
They go to companies and contract them to build the guns for them.

[TEX]

Handguns in British Columbia? Isn't that a big no-no?


TEX

[0ILBURNER]

I shot a clip through a Norinco Tokarev 9mm. It wasn't terribly accurate (IMHO - I am a novice at best) but felt good & the fit seemed of decent quality.

I have a Norinco stagecoach shotgun, and it is less than standard quality to me - right along w/ Silver Zuk's 12 ga pump, but then again it didn't cost much :shrug:

[beyondhelp]

I have to agree with Nakona, check out the IPSC /IDPA results and you should find that a large number of competitors were/are using a norinco chassis to build their guns. Now I haven't followed the sport in a few but IIRC Norinco was a top used model for a while because they were cheap to aquire and were a strong stable platform to build on. Now I have also heard the rumors and even had a guy spit on the floor in reference to "anything those slant eyes made" but that was a unique experience. I am hoping the nib never fired Norinco is still at the local shop tucked away in the corner as I'd like to buy it one day. (priced really cheap and the owner agreed to sell to me 'cause I impressed him with my research) I've been studying 1911 gunsmithing for years and one day I will actually own several if I can just quit buying stuff like houses etc.

[Old Fart]

Now, I don't know anything about comp shooting, but wouldn't you want the most comfortable, softest gun possible? <snip> Hard enough that I would never consider using a .45 for fast accurate comp shooting...


LOL, considering that the .45 is what STARTED (and still dominates) "fast accurate comp shooting"

[45acp]

Norinco has all of the old tooling from Colt. If you've ever torn down either a box-stock Colt or a Norinco, you will realize one is just as shitty as the other. :D Get the Nor 1911... its a dam fine weapon and by all means its a Colt with a foreign name. All parts are interchangable so you could build one into a nice gun as your funds would allow.

[copeland]

I've been reading up, I do actually want both firearms now...the norinco p-22 (Sig p226) has been praised as being ugly but a great service weapon in european police forces.

and of course the 1911 has served well in the services for 74 years...beginning in 1913-14 when it became an issue pistol...dumb question but is the 1911 named after the year it was introduced? I never read anything directly admitting that and hadn't realized it has been in service for such a looonnnggg time.

Hearing all the comments on quality has only furthered my interest in the Norinco lineup. That said I am not sure if I want the .45 since my expieriences have only been with a 9mm...

to fuel the debate what I'm looking at what I've researched :

Sig :
+Holds more ammo
+Easier to become comfortable shooting
+Quality sidearm that is underrated
+cheaper ammo
-9mm

1911 :
+Quality assurance of a long standing service arm
+.45 - bigger is better :D
+/-More umphh to it
-has been claimed to be harder to get into shooting...since caliber is a bit larger

anymore to add?

[jstandle]

I've got a Springfield Ultra-Compact Mil-Spec .45 that I think is "ok". It really needs some upgrades, but for the initial cost of around $500 it's still a good deal.

Upgrades that it needs badly are beavertail and hammer. Grips would be nice too. Since it has a shorter grip than the full-size and has a crappy beavertail/hammer it gives hammerbite like a bitch. It's a pretty heavy gun, but not horrible for concealment. I bought that size because it's a good middle road, not too big to carry, but not so small it's crappy to shoot. I like the big caliber too. After shooting my .45 for awhile, .22's don't do anything for me (though you can't find a better plinking caliber than a .22)

Other guns I've shot recently are the Sig .357 and 9mm glock. Both of those guns felt better too me but I don't like the looks. The Sig .357 had nice smooth edges and was really comfortable. My .45 has sharp enough edges to damn near cut you, which I really don't like.

Anyway, I'm new to the gun hobby so my opinions aren't worth much.

Here's a pic;
http://home.centurytel.net/jstandle/Pistol/pistol-3.JPG

Jordan

[GeoB]

If you are going to be good in competition you need to shoot a lot! An awful LOT. This gets expensive. Note the .22 kits for larger pistols.

I don't know what kind of shooting you are describing exactly.. but I personally can't think of a reason for my to ditch my Hi Standard (6" barrel)for a larger caliber, for competition (I have a nice lil trophy for 25 yd slow fire). In competition you learn to work with what you have. It becomes a competition for YOU, not the gun. After shooting, learning, practicing, shooting etc, it doesn't matter if you are only shooting a .22. No matter WHAT caliber you have, you still have to work within its constraints. The compromises are a lot more pleasant in the .22. I understand you can't really use it for every kind of competition, but if you are just shooting paper targets, why not lob a cheap bullet as compared to an expensive one?

Unless you are rich, of course, then it is just the cummulative effects of the recoil on your hand and wrists, and on your ear drums and auditiory nerves. Yeah, a bigger caliber is more macho, maybe, but you will pay a big price for that.

I may be waaay wrong, but I have always thought the 1911 and its ilk to be inaccurate. Oh, I know you can fix this, fix that, etc, and improve it, and that's fine as long as you are shooting against a similar weapon. But I think something more modern, built with some thought towards accuracy, would be far more consistant. With that tiny lil barrel (more effected by heat), with all that mass sliding around up there.. I think for longer ranges, between 100 and 200 yds, a .45 can't match my lil .22. I shoot with folks shooting rifles, when I go plinking lots of times. Purdy soon, somebody will say, "Damn, look at that! That guy is knocking them over with a PISTOL!" When the targets are waaay out there. I guess it sounds like I'm trolling, but I'm not. This has been my experience.

I have a viscereal reaction to Norinco. I wonder if they have the legal right to make cheap knock-offs of perfectly good firearms? In my 1st experience with them, I picked up a Browning .22 semi-auto knock-off. I have shot Brownings a lot and would like to own one. I looked at THAT abortion and almost vomited.

Sheesh. Purdy soon when all of our manufacturing has moved to China, they'll have us by the ying-yang, as the Arabs do over oil.

My uncle had a gunshop in LA area (Ames gunshop, south side of Pico Blvd in Santa Monica as I recall). I remember we had a whole mess of armed guys on the roof and inside during the Watts riots of '65? '66? when some black folk were driving around waaay outside the riot area knocking off gun shops to get weapons.

We took a load of guns to the desert week after week and shot like crazy. Unfortunately, nobody warned me how it would spoil me for guns I could actually afford.. I shot Sakos, Brownings, Anschutz.. I don't recall what all.

My wife is miffed that she can't get the redneck out of me. And she isn't at all happy that I taught our 12 yo daughter to shoot, years ago. Wife wants to have a yuppy husband, but I am a pickup, dawg, gun and Levis kinda guy with a yuppy job. And I'm JUST not cooperating with her.

[45acp]

You dont shoot 9mm in IPSC because it puts you in the minor power class.

[KMD]

so since there hasn't been any real concerns (The get what you pay for is fair enough) I'm wondering about calibers...the great .45 to 9mm debate...

Things I should consider
pricing in ammo
stopping power (I liked the 9mm sharp yet soft recoil...is a .45 much more powerful?) I do believe I heard a competition .45 and man it's sounds went right through your chest with every round fired...

.


Stopping power for what? you live in Canada you cannot carry or hunt with it. The only thing you can use it for is target shooting :confused:

KMD

[copeland]

You dont shoot 9mm in IPSC because it puts you in the minor power class.

Damn straight I found this out...though I don't completley underastand all the comp details and lingo...however...ladies and gentle men I settled...

I bought this :
http://www.marstar.ca/Norinco/images/M1911A1-C-45acp.jpg

Calibre: .45 ACP Weight (kg.) 1.09 kg
Bbl. (in.) 4.25 inches Weight (lbs.) 2.39 lbs.
Bbl. (mm.) 109 mm Finish: Blue
Capacity: 7 shots Other: incl. one magaz


Gotta wait 3-5 days for processing then it's on like Donkey Kong...my pops was a little sceptical but I found that Norinco supposedly bought some assembly tools off of colt so it's colt with a Nornico stamp -- par tof the reason IPSC guys like the chassis so much ?? I got a fair deal too -- 400 Cdn plus tax works out to 458 I thought him dropping to 400 was fair sinceI would need to pay for shipping, and have to wait longer to actually get the gun...Next week I start shooting.

My dad did like the idea that sine I want to join a police force..if I can gain expierience on the .45 a 9mm will be nothing to practice on in duty.

[300sniper]

i love my springfield armory 1911's. i still want the trp opperator but haven't been able to justify the cost yet. i also am a big h&k fan. i own a few usp's and love them. i still prefere the single action of the 1911 over my usp tactical .45. the tactical has a nice match trigger but i can't shoot it fast because of the long trigger pull when in single action. but back to the point, i'd stick with more known name brand 1911 mils pec pistols. springfield, kimber ect. rember, you get what you pay for.

[MetalMender]

Quote:
{Originally Posted by 45acp
You dont shoot 9mm in IPSC because it puts you in the minor power class.}

{Originally Posted by copeland:
Damn straight I found this out...though I don't completley underastand all the comp details and lingo..}

An example is a 200 grain bullet traveling at least 850 fps.
http://

here is a pic of my colt combat gov model from my IPSC days

[Weasel]

i still prefere the single action of the 1911 over my usp tactical .45. the tactical has a nice match trigger but i can't shoot it fast because of the long trigger pull when in single action.

Can't you have a gunsmith adjust the amount of travel for single action trigger pull, speed bump I think? I thought I read you could have it done on my Sig. And I don't know anything about the colt guns or even really like them but I doubt the sig copy is anywhere close to the real deal. Good luck with yours ans shoot safe!

[copeland]

rember, you get what you pay for.

True, true, but remember I'm coming at this as a noob. Though I've been around guns all my life, and am confident in handling and practical knowledge. This is my first handgun that I actually *own*. I'm pretty confident in it too, after looking at the quality once again today, I'm sure with some attention to detail this firearm will prove itself.

As for owning a handgun...you can't hunt with it or carry it. But it is a form of selfdefense in the home.

Don't make me go into my the importance of an armed population in a republic speach. :flipoff2:

[beyondhelp]

Originally Posted by 300sniper
rember, you get what you pay for.



I got a free Kel-Tec p-11 'cause it was picky about ammo. I polished the feed ramp and the rails, lubed it properly and I have close to 3000 rounds through it. I did break the mainspring but they sent me a new one for free. (actually 2) Pretty good for a 200.00 gun (if I bought it) It's super reliable and I am confident in its behavior so that if I choose to carry it will be the Kel-Tec. I just wish it was a .45 instead of 9mm but it's so small that it makes up for that.

[0ILBURNER]

I got a free Kel-Tec p-11 Pretty good for a 200.00 gun (if I bought it) It's super reliable and I am confident in its behavior so that if I choose to carry it will be the Kel-Tec. I just wish it was a .45 instead of 9mm but it's so small that it makes up for that.

I had one of those lil' dudes one time. I really enjoyed it, but I wasn't a very good shot with it :rolleyes:
Since then I switched to revolvers & love them, but miss that compact size.

[45acp]

Actually, in 1911's, you DONT get what you pay for. Well, sorta, but not really.

Go tear down a box stock plain jane Colt. Its friggin nasty. Its just as bad if not worse than the Norinco. Covered in rough tooling marks and the parts are as loose as you can imagine. The only difference is the name. The Colt sells for $600 and the Nor sells for $250.

The 1911 is one of those guns were if you know how to trick one it doesnt matter what you start with. If you dont know some basic gunsmithing.... then yes it may be better to start with a "cleaner" model. I reworked a Norinco for a friend a few years back and its no different than doing any other model. Now it feeds anything, shoots tight groups, has a 1.5lb trigger, and feels like the slide is on roller bearings.

[gunracer1]

the only 45 acp that i every worked on that i thought was pure junk was a thompson. it was so soft, i went to polish the feed ramp and almost screwed up the gun. the norinco are a decent 1911, and probably the best ones for the money. i just got to a point i started building guns from complete scratch for ipsc, it is not woth all the work of pounding down a set of rails and workin your ass off on a a colt,springfield or any factory gun. i suggest you just start shooting in the comps with a stock gun and save you money to get a good gun when you get better. better yet spend your money on a good reloading setup. i have 3 strayer/voights right now. a 9mm alloy frame double stack set up for a can with a custom schumen barrel[comander lenght], a limited 40 cal double stack [goverment size]and a 9mm open gun with the new titanium comp. these guns are truly the cream of the crop, but they cost plenty. i used to shoot a bunch of ipsc but have not been in years. maybe after i get my rotator cuff surgury done. but if i had a dollar every time i saw high dollar guns get there asses kicked i would be rich. practice is better than any gun. i used to shoot 1000k plus rounds a week when i was competing. made master class pretty quick, it was the practice, not the gun. be safe and practice. mike

[copeland]

Thanks guys...Once I have the .45 I think i will order a case of .45 ammo to start...then will get into reloading. Then you all are going to have to deal with endless tech questions on how to modify and optimize the operation of the pistol. :flipoff2:

I think I will keep it stock for the first couple times I go out and then maybe, once I have became comfortable with the sidearm, start to modify a few pieces. I will still need to order a holster which is a whole new round of research. I tried my friends quick draw holster, though I don't know it's name...it;s a nylon holster that fits on a belt but the front is cut open pretty much so that you draw pulling forward rather then lifting up. MY dad suggests I also try a thigh holster, with the pistol being mounted lower, when you draw it is quicker then if it was drawn from a normal holster at belt height.