I think I'm gonna need a fuel pump. I searched :flipoff2: and found some part numbers. what is the consensus on the best swap?
Autozone PN: p74006 -is this the on for a '94 Camaro? also was listed as Carter Part number
the one out of a '89 Cadillac Seville w/ TBI?
mid 90's Chevy truck w/ Vortec V-6?
or this Autozone number E3212?

Will these work on mine...mine is of the old school design with separate sending unit in the side of the tank. Is the actual pump part the same on all FI Rovers?
I found a fuel rail off a '95 RR and plan on installing it b/c it has the schrater valve to hook up a fuel pressure gauge. I also pulled the rail and checked the injectors to see if they were leaking. I don't think they are squirting very good. They were just kind of spitting...not a good emulsifying pattern... which has me thinking that the fuel pressure is no bueno. (although this could be ok..I've never actually seen a good one before) what should the pattern look like?
also my exhaust temps are off the chart (lean?), the manifold temp pegged an 850* temp gun :eek:
I plan on installing the new rail and hooking up the gauge...just want to get my ducks in a row if it is the pump.
thanks.

Fuel pump: I went into my local Advance and asked for one that looked like the one in my hand and was cheap.

Lean condition: Your spitting injectors may be causing this. Throw a cheap fuel pressure gauge in the rail and you'll always know if you have pressure at the rail. Do a search (Newbie) and you'll find a picture of the setup on my Disco.

If you're a really, really, really cheap bastard, you can go to Wal-Mart and buy a 0-60 PSI tire pressure gauge and use that. I have one on my injector testing fuel rail as I needed one and was at Wal-Mart. So far, it hasn't burned down the shop. The gauge is about $7.00 at Grainger, $2 at Wal-Mart.

Peace,
PT

What if he's a really really really REALLY cheap bastard?

:flipoff2:

[hijack]

More fun for me at work. (http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PAGE=SEARCH&KEYWORD=411920)

Send your pics to:

mslade@overstock.com

[/endhijack]

:D

Lean condition: Your spitting injectors may be causing this. Throw a cheap fuel pressure gauge in the rail and you'll always know if you have pressure at the rail. Do a search (Newbie) and you'll find a picture of the setup on my Disco.

Peace,
PT

Like I said above, already have the pressure gauge problem sorted out. I pickd up a fuel rail off a 95 RR. It was really, really, really cheap. It was sitting in storage on an unused motor.
I'm thinking the spitting injectors is related to fuel pressure, not the injectos themselves which means I either have a sick pump or a regulator not working correctly.

Like I said above, already have the pressure gauge problem sorted out. I pickd up a fuel rail off a 95 RR. It\0\0
?\0\05{\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0\0y, really cheap. It was sitting in storage on an unused motor.
I'm thinking the spitting injectors is related to fuel pressure, not the injectos themselves which means I either have a sick pump or a regulator not working correctly.

Speaking of injectors, have you looked at getting the injectors off of that '95 RRC? Would they work on your truck?

I have heard the injectors can be cleaned/rebuilt, but don't know exactly how to do it or how much it would cost.

I think Schram also has a line on some non-Rover injectors that work too.

Speaking of injectors, have you looked at getting the injectors off of that '95 RRC? Would they work on your truck?

I have heard the injectors can be cleaned/rebuilt, but don't know exactly how to do it or how much it would cost.

I think Schram also has a line on some non-Rover injectors that work too.

Thanx Mike, but the alternative injector project has been relegated to the back burner dealing with P-38s and Series Ones. The really cheap injectors flowed too much and ran rich all the time. Someday, I'll get this one figured out.

Injectors can be cleaned and flow matched, but not much more. The cost for cleaning and flow-testing will vary widely-I consider the $17/injector my local diesel shop charges is outrageous, hence my building the test-bench.

The injectors are all the same from earlier than '87 (NAS references available to me) up until the Motronics engines-and they might even be the same for them.

I doubt the fuel injector spitting is the pump, it is almost certainly rust deposits in the injectors. You are gonna be AMAZED at the amount of rust in the fuel rail. You may find this in both of the rails you have. My local diesel shop will not even clean really rusty injectors. The injectors in the engine that sat will likely be worse as it has not had a continuous exchange of fluids.

I don't think a cheaper fuel pressure gauge is available other than the one from Wal-Mart. And I'm not too sure how well suited the Wal-Mart gauge is to continuous monitoring. In my application of injector test bench, I'm there and the fuel flow is tied into a (Grateful) Dead-man switch so if it fails, I can shut it down quickly.

Peace,
PT

My stock fuel rail is clean, the donor one is rusty. I'm going to try and clean it w/ a gas tank etch. The injector on it were from the truck. Maybe they are plugged. I have the old ones and will swap them out and see.
You think $17 is outrageous, try $31. that's what I was quoted..and that didn't include seals. They said they would be like new, if that means anything. I'm guessing all you can do is clean them and calibrate?

and as for your aftermarket idea. Why couldn't just adapt all the hardware fom some other multiport engine onto a rover. Like a Ford 4.6, Chevy LT1 and just buy a chip burner and some software and create your own map. I've seen the pics of the on the RPI-V8 website that has the modified upper plenum and from what it looks like a tuned port MAF sensor.

You could use a chevy tuned port harness, sensors, injectors- maybe smaller ones? ones off a ford 4.6 mod motor?
Does anyone know if a TPI motor has a knock sensor

My stock fuel rail is clean, the donor one is rusty. I'm going to try and clean it w/ a gas tank etch. The injector on it were from the truck. Maybe they are plugged. I have the old ones and will swap them out and see.
You think $17 is outrageous, try $31. that's what I was quoted..and that didn't include seals. They said they would be like new, if that means anything. I'm guessing all you can do is clean them and calibrate?

and as for your aftermarket idea. Why couldn't just adapt all the hardware fom some other multiport engine onto a rover. Like a Ford 4.6, Chevy LT1 and just buy a chip burner and some software and create your own map. I've seen the pics of the on the RPI-V8 website that has the modified upper plenum and from what it looks like a tuned port MAF sensor.

You could use a chevy tuned port harness, sensors, injectors- maybe smaller ones? ones off a ford 4.6 mod motor?
Does anyone know if a TPI motor has a knock sensor

You could do this with relative ease using Chevy TPI stuff. LT1 and later LT4/LS6 don't have a typical distributor and don't have a removable PROM(and may even be OBDII), so you should stick with earlier TPI parts. Most of it is pretty straightforward. You could run a MAF or a MAP. You can even modify the distributor (or adapt an HEI) to let the computer control the timing, too. Its all friggin' easier than you think. I converted my carbed Buick V6 in my Jeepster to Chevy TBI using a bunch of junkyard parts from a 4.3 Astro Van. Burned a new chip with a modified fuel and timing curves and it works great. Total cost was about $500. Check out www.tunercat.com for tuning software. Also, customefis.com has a ton of useful info, too.

For injectors, be careful not to mix impedence ratings. If you swap earlier injectors into a later system (like Motronic), it'll burn the ECU out in no time unless you run a resistor. I don't know what's stock in the Rover, so this may not be an issue.

So, today I put the new rail on and threaded in a gauge. The pressure at idle is 30 psi. It will surge up to around 35-36 PSI then drop to around 20 PSI when you hit the throttle and then come up around 28 PSI@ 3000RPM. Does that sound normal? 37 PSI is the baseline pressure right? Is this w/ the key on/ vehicle off? I think I may take a look at the pump tomorrow. It's just a pain in the ass to drop the tank (have to empty-half full). Does anyone know what the voltage or what ohms a coolant temp sensor should run? Is there a way to check?
If it's not the pump should I try another set of o2 sensors? I've got a set w/ about 40k on them that I could install. What do ya think.
edit: my gauge was really cheap. I stole it from one of the workbenches we have in the garage that have air suspended table tops. I plan on pulling the gauge once I figure out what's wrong and put in a 1/8" plug- I'm kind of nervous about the gauge and the the heat of the engine bay.

That's definitely not right. The pressure shouldn't change much at all. Change the filter and check the pressure regulator. Check the lines from the tank, too. They can get old and collapse. If that doesn't do it, drop the tank. It could just be the pre-filter at the bottom of the pump is all clogged up. If all else fails, then change the pump. I just did this last week and it wasn't too bad. On mine, someone had changed out the stock pump and didn't tighten the clamp properly. It was squirting gas out of the gas line (inside the tank) and losing fuel pressure.

Well, I think it may be time to find someone with a computer that can read the ECU to find out just what is happening.

Your question about coolant temp sensor resistance and O2 sensors frightens me into thinking you could spend lots of money throwing parts at this truck and MAYBE you'll hit on the right one by accident.

As for fuel pressure, crimp the line from the regulator and see what happens to your pressures. As Andy stated, I have heard of many instances where the hose failed inside the tank causing low pressure/flow.

Were you having hard start problems, or was the lean condition the reason to begin this journey?

As for the gauge, I don't worry about it as I used the exact same gauge I'm using in my truck to monitor pressures of methyl-ethyl death back when I had a real job (man, that was an awkward sentence-where's the internet grammar patrol when you need them).

Peace,
PT

Well, I think it may be time to find someone with a computer that can read the ECU to find out just what is happening.

Your question about coolant temp sensor resistance and O2 sensors frightens me into thinking you could spend lots of money throwing parts at this truck and MAYBE you'll hit on the right one by accident.

As for fuel pressure, crimp the line from the regulator and see what happens to your pressures. As Andy stated, I have heard of many instances where the hose failed inside the tank causing low pressure/flow.

Were you having hard start problems, or was the lean condition the reason to begin this journey?

As for the gauge, I don't worry about it as I used the exact same gauge I'm using in my truck to monitor pressures of methyl-ethyl death back when I had a real job (man, that was an awkward sentence-where's the internet grammar patrol when you need them).

Peace,
PT
It takes a little longer now than in the past to start. It takes as long as an old XJ Cherokee if your familiar as to how they start, probably 2-3 seconds, closer to two. It use to almost fire up instantly. some days it still does.

Also, it sometime falls into this limp idle or something. The throttle does nothing. It will even backfire if you keep slaming the throttle open. If you throw it in neutral or feather the gas it will cathc and then shoot the rpm up like when you first start it.
I'm seriously considering the TPI chevy route. I think I could reuse the plenum. The TPS could probably be fanagled to be w/in range. The IAC valve is the same. May have to figure out something for the fuel pressure regulator. Change out the other sensors, weld up the vacuum advance in the dizzy. Could use the same 02 sensor (only need one though) or plug the old holes and weld in a new more common bung. The all you need is someone who can program the computer and burn a chip. That's it!
edit: and of course use chevy injectors and MAF.

It takes a little longer now than in the past to start. It takes as long as an old XJ Cherokee if your familiar as to how they start, probably 2-3 seconds, closer to two. It use to almost fire up instantly. some days it still does.

Also, it sometime falls into this limp idle or something. The throttle does nothing. It will even backfire if you keep slaming the throttle open. If you throw it in neutral or feather the gas it will cathc and then shoot the rpm up like when you first start it.
I'm seriously considering the TPI chevy route. I think I could reuse the plenum. The TPS could probably be fanagled to be w/in range. The IAC valve is the same. May have to figure out something for the fuel pressure regulator. Change out the other sensors, weld up the vacuum advance in the dizzy. Could use the same 02 sensor (only need one though) or plug the old holes and weld in a new more common bung. The all you need is someone who can program the computer and burn a chip. That's it!
edit: and of course use chevy injectors and MAF.

Your symptoms are totally consistent with a fuel delivery problem. Swapping to Chevy stuff isn't going to fix it since you'll still be using the same tank, pump and delivery system. Those fuel pressure numbers you posted earlier are all wrong. No fuel injected motor will run right with the pressures fluctuating like that. Your symptoms confirm this. Fix it so it has consistent fuel pressure, then report back and let us know what its doing.

I had a similar problem just a few weeks back. My '90 RRC would run pretty good most of the time. When cold, however, it would take a while to start, then idle rough. About a mile down the road it would sputter, then catch, then sputter, etc. I'd nurse it along in the slow lane for a couple of miles, then BAM, it would kick-in and run fine for the rest of the day. I spent weeks checking and changing out ignition amplifiers, coils, TPS, MAF, etc. :shaking: Ended up being the internal line from the pump leaking. I finally fixed that and the thing runs like new.

If you are really thinking a different injection system, I'd consider Megaquirt. IMHO, it really is the way to go with an off road vehicle because you then have control of the computer and can perform field analsysis and modification of all components through a cheap laptop. Plus you can change the fuel mapping to suit any mods you might perform.

You can keep the stock injector rail, throotle body and stepper motor. Toss the MAF and add a cheap MAP.

http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html

If you are really thinking a different injection system, I'd consider Megaquirt. IMHO, it really is the way to go with an off road vehicle because you then have control of the computer and can perform field analsysis and modification of all components through a cheap laptop. Plus you can change the fuel mapping to suit any mods you might perform.

You can keep the stock injector rail, throotle body and stepper motor. Toss the MAF and add a cheap MAP.

http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html

IMHO, Megasquirt has some major limitations when compared to the GM stuff. It is fuel only and can't control ignition (no big deal - so is the Lucas system on my RRC). However, you can't use the stock stepper motor for the Megasquirt. It only supports a simple on/off throttle bypass valve - basically like a choke that kicks off at a certain temperature, so it can't make minor adjustments to the idle to compensate for changes in load (like going from Park to Drive with an auto or when the AC compressor kicks in). Still a cool system, though - and way cheap. I have one, but I'm still waiting for the right motor to install it on. You can still diagnose and monitor everything on the earlier GM set up with a laptop. You just can't program it "on the fly". So far, the benefits of the Megasquirt haven't outweighed the inconvenience of swapping chips to retune the GM stuff. It would probably be best suited for converting something that wasn't injected in the first place.

Go ahead and go with a bastardized fuel injection system. BUT, remember that no one will be able to fix it.

My attempts to find substitute parts are all based upon my hopes to find parts that fit, are compatible with the engine management system and readily available. Once you start going with such offbeat stuff, the opportunities to find somebody to help you fix it goes out the window.

I have enough trouble fixing the stuff that well-intentioned folks do, but don't know what they're doing (wrong). Just today, I found all found oxygen sensors on a Rangie were wrong. I wondered why the connectors were all cable-tied together and the RCL said open-loop due to fault yet everything else tested out correct. Turns out Rover used a goofy sensor for about 10K vehicles.

Go ahead and go with a bastardized fuel injection system. BUT, remember that no one will be able to fix it.

My attempts to find substitute parts are all based upon my hopes to find parts that fit, are compatible with the engine management system and readily available. Once you start going with such offbeat stuff, the opportunities to find somebody to help you fix it goes out the window.

I'm probably not going to go that route on this truck...may just get it running right and sell it. I may do it on my project 109 seeing how I already have another rover v-8, r380, t-case sitting around.
I think I could find more help to fix it than I could a rover system. The computer wouldn't know any different what engine it is on. As long as all the sensors are talking the right language it should work fine (w/ the right programming). With the Chevy hybrid system I should be able to pull codes w/ any chevy code reader. Worst case scenario: I have to make an upper plenum to mount a chevy TPI throttle body w/ a chevy TPS. You could make that out of sheet aluminum and mount the IAC part off the stock rover plenum just like it is now. Rearrange the trumpets and shorten them to keep them equal length as I would have to mount the chevy TB on the front of the plenum. The nice thing about chevy ECU's is that the software is available to completely tune every aspect of the Mgt. system. Once you got it set where you want it, you just burn a chip. A friend of mine has done a couple of fuel injections on his scouts and did another TPI swap on a jeep running a small block. These were done w/ all junkyard parts and JY harnesses that were trimmed and shortened to make a stand alone harness from the rest of the vehicle. If someone wants to see them I can send someone the pics to post. The road blocks I can see are the tie-ins w/ the gauges and all the other neat rover electrical system quirks :flipoff2: (like the one fuse for the left and one for the right running lights-can't remember which model did this-, the tach running off the alternator, etc.)

I'll check the tank. I need to drive it some more to get rid of the fuel...thanks for the ideas...

If you are really thinking a different injection system, I'd consider Megaquirt. IMHO, it really is the way to go with an off road vehicle because you then have control of the computer and can perform field analsysis and modification of all components through a cheap laptop. Plus you can change the fuel mapping to suit any mods you might perform.

You can keep the stock injector rail, throotle body and stepper motor. Toss the MAF and add a cheap MAP.

http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html

I have looked at that one before. There's another type of software that uses a 3D table and you just click and drag....has anybody seen the one I'm talking about?

well i finally got around to dropping the tank. I forgot that the old ones have a drain plug! Getting the gas out was easy.

Dropped the tank and on my style pump there is no fuel line inside. It goes from metal line into the top of the tank then switches to some kind of check valve (I'm guessing), and this valve slides onto the pump out put. Everything is held together w/ a metal u-bracket that wraps around the bottom of the pump.

So, no problems w/ the fuel line...there isn't any. picked up a pump from autozone. It looks the same except for the connecor. That's ok, they supplied a new connector w/ pigtails.

My question is on the wires from the connector going to the tank there are resistors inside the tank. I know they are resistors b/c I cut one open to see what the hell it was. They are inline and covered w/ some kind of shrink wrap it appears. One on the positive side and one on the negative. Should I remove these? I'm thinking yes b/c the new pump may need more voltage. Is this one of LR's way to regulate fuel pressure? Need help ASAP, please! I have to drive to houston tuesday! Thanks.

FYI: this is on the old style pump out of a '88 RR. the one w/ seperate sending unit and fuel pump.