Hey guys,

I run a custom 80-inch Land Rover with coil suspension and a 283.

http://www.dreamlab.cc/s1/seriousone.html

I have the Holley Pro-Jection on it (the fully programmable system), and an Edelbrock intake manifold.

Let me just say I am NOT fully qualified to do any kind of engine programming, but thanks to the incredibly shitty instruction manual I have been able to get it running fairly good.

I am looking for ANYONE who has experience with this system. Holley's tech support is a joke, and I don't know anyone in Portland, Oregon who knows anything about it.

Pointers? Suggestions? Anything???

Thanks

Michael

well, this may not help, but...the FI in my Grand Cherokee ('94) is made by Holly, looks a lot like a pro-jection. I was thinking maybe a Jeep dealer (of Jeep tech) could help you out...

Hey Cutter,

Thanks. I'll make some calls. Hadn't even thought of the Heep (er, Jeep) dealer.

Later,

Michael

Hi newbie. Welcome to PBB. :)

Here's my experience:

I have the Holley 900 cfm Digital Pro-jection on a 502 Big Block. I have had it for the last two years.

1. The instruction manual is a little sparse, but if you read it enough times, most of the info is in there.

2. Once my engine warms up and goes to closed loop, it runs ok. Holley's software is set to have the O2 sensor come on at something like 140 deg. I reset it to come on at 70 degrees, because until it goes closed loop, it runs like a toilet.

3. Make sure you have adjusted your TPS (Throttle position sensor) to use the scale for your throttle.

4. Try and upgrade to the latest version of the software for your ECM. The version that came with mine had a manual scale map for the TPS, and the new one is automatic (you click set, and then push your throttle in and release and it calculates the scale for you)

5. Make sure you fuel pressure is 15 psi, and you have no kinks or restrictions in your return of fuel feed lines.

6. I got the 502/502 and 502/450 fuel maps direct from Holley tech support (I had to beg). After installing the 450/502 GM Performance Crate engine map, I tried starting the truck and it backfired so bad through the throttle body, it started on fire. I called Holley tech support and the guy said.. well, I guess that doesn't work for you. Huh? It's a Crate engine and a brand new Holley EFI? What's different? So much for that map.

6. I ended up using the 454 map, and tweaking it a bit.

7. My truck is on 44's and has hydraulic steering, great for trail, not so great for doing high speed testing on the highway to tune your fuel map. So I could never get the map fully adjusted. until it goes closed loop, it runs poorly.

I hate to tell you this, but if I was to do it again, i would go with Howell. Stock GM computer, custom chip, Holley's TBI, and Howell's harness. I've used this system and it is bullet proof.

I just removed by Holley ECM and replaced it and the wiring harness with a GM computer and a Howell custom chip.

Tim

Tim,

Thank you for your reply. I am glad that someone else had the flames shooting out the TBI other than me!

I have similar performance characteristics, but I do think that I might have a vaccum leak between the TBI and the aircleaner bottom housing. I have been trying to find just the pur-fect gasket, and have gotten pretty close, but still a leak. I smell fumes when I decelerate and coast.

My map I'm running is a heavily tweaked 350 map. I actually do a lot of highway cruising, so I have had it up to speed to tweak that section of the map.

I will do the TPS trick.

I'll also do the thermometer reset down to 70 deg.

I've also thought seriously about the factory fuel injection myself, but can't bear the thought of tossing 1500 smacks into the trash, so I'm bound and determined to make this damn thing work.

I have a hard time believing that Holley would put out a product, do so much R&D and then have it really not work that well. I think the software and the GUI could do for a major re-work, and then have someone who knows both engines and how to write, do the instructions over from scratch.

Thanks again,

Michael

PS What did you do with your ECM??? I could use a spare!

I just installed the 300cfm system on my Cruiser, and i love it. I like the adjstability, and i am not using the o2 sensor. If yours has the tunable ECU, like mine with the knobs that adjust fuel mixture, then i can help you if you tell me exactly what the problem is. Does it miss, or backfire, idle good/bad, accelerate good/bad?? I let it warm up and idle, then started smelling the exhaust, and adjusting the idle mixture until it ran the smoothest and smelled the cleanest. As for the accelleration setting, i just sat in nuetral, and floored it suddenly. Keep adjusting it until it does not miss when you do this, then you will have a good mixture. I didn't mess with the choke or high RPM setting, but it can't be that difficult.

Good Luck!!

Originally posted by elf_cruiser
smelling the exhaust

ohhhhhh now i understand you :D

Originally posted by WOLF359
Hi newbie. Welcome to PBB. :)

Here's my experience:

I hate to tell you this, but if I was to do it again, i would go with Howell. Stock GM computer, custom chip, Holley's TBI, and Howell's harness. I've used this system and it is bullet proof.

I just removed by Holley ECM and replaced it and the wiring harness with a GM computer and a Howell custom chip.

Tim

Do they have a website or phone number??

http://www.howell-efi.com/

Originally posted by Serious One
Tim,


I've also thought seriously about the factory fuel injection myself, but can't bear the thought of tossing 1500 smacks into the trash, so I'm bound and determined to make this damn thing work.


Yah, i was detemined to get it to work as well. The new harness, ECM and custom chip cost me $650.00. I have the ECM and harness still, and am thinking of putting them on Ebay. If you want them, make a reasonable offer.



I have a hard time believing that Holley would put out a product, do so much R&D and then have it really not work that well. I think the software and the GUI could do for a major re-work, and then have someone who knows both engines and how to write, do the instructions over from scratch.



From the people I have spoken with, most agree that the Holley ECM is a little weak. When I mentioned the problems I was having to Howell, the tech guy said they get a lot of that kind of complaint.

I have driven a Howell EFI truck (from Calgary to Moab), and it started perfect (cold), had instant throttle response, and just plain worked as advertised. When it was installed, it was bolted on, and fired up. No messing, no fussing, it worked perfect out of the box.

I had hoped that when Holley sent me the 502 map that was specifically developed for my engine, that I would have had the same experience. But no such luck.

I think the thing that sealed it for me is I phoned them to get a replacement PDF of the manual emailed to me, and they told me I would have to buy one for $50 plus shipping, and wait 6 weeks. (!!) Same thing when my Floppy disk of the program died. 6 weeks and $50.00 for a replacment floppy. Heck, email me the freakin 250k file, it's not that hard.

If you want more info, I'm happy to share my experience.

Tim

elf cruiser,

I have the *other* pro-jection unit. I have spoken with a few people that have the 4-knob style, and I wish I would have gotten that system instead! Doh!

Wonder if I can reterofit that box onto my system I have now???

M

I run the digital "knob adjustable" pro-jection on my land cruiser. Thru pain and misery I have it working pretty good know.

The following is some advice (take it or leave it):

1. Put the system on its own circuit with a relay that gets a constant 12V, the voltage can not vary.

2. Make sure your sensor is close the manifold if not in the manifold (like GM ones). You may have 2 O2 sensors?

3. Pro-jection dumps serious fuel and was designed for street rods with big free flowing heads. My 350 is basically a stock truck 4bolt and was way overgassed even dialed down......therefore.....I installed lower pound injectors (2) and it runs much better for my rock-crawling purposes. I did lose high end power becuase it can't dump enough gas (with my settings)

however

On the trail it starts better, idles better, and doesn't stink.

Initially, I was constantly fouling plugs. I think I went with a 20lbs smaller pod. I had good luck with Holley email and get my parts from JEGS here in Columbus, OH.

4. I recommend putting a pressure gauge on the supply line. This will expedite any trouble shooting.

5. My pump work on ground interrupt system....therefore....as always....make sure the grounds are good.



I like mine, I can reach in and turn the key any time of year and it fires up and idles perfectly.


thats all I know

KMAN

I had the 4Di on a 351w in a cj. It was the biggest POS I ever messed with. After a few monthes of telling my self this will work. I sent it back. Here is one thing I came up with. If you have a motor that does not have a very, very smooth idle. I have a large cam in the 351w. The CPU reads a tach signal and starts there with it's adjestments. It can not tell if it is underload, or poor idle. Thus this caused another problem with mine engine, cro-moly rings need to run a little on the lean side to keep them seated. Also no matter what you put the 4di setup on, holley has it set to run 10% rich no matter what you try and do to it. This info is in the manual,I use that term loosey.

All things said, tech support("what we sell EFI? I can help with your 600 double pumper.") I would stay away from the 4di setup. I have several friends running the setup with the knobs, they work great. If you get one and get it to work, GOOD JOB! I would only go with the analog setups.

Originally posted by emsoffroad
I had the 4Di on a 351w in a cj. It was the biggest POS I ever messed with. After a few monthes of telling my self this will work. I sent it back. Here is one thing I came up with. If you have a motor that does not have a very, very smooth idle. I have a large cam in the 351w. The CPU reads a tach signal and starts there with it's adjestments. It can not tell if it is underload, or poor idle. Thus this caused another problem with mine engine, cro-moly rings need to run a little on the lean side to keep them seated. Also no matter what you put the 4di setup on, holley has it set to run 10% rich no matter what you try and do to it. This info is in the manual,I use that term loosey.

All things said, tech support("what we sell EFI? I can help with your 600 double pumper.") I would stay away from the 4di setup. I have several friends running the setup with the knobs, they work great. If you get one and get it to work, GOOD JOB! I would only go with the analog setups.

I have the Projection 4Di on my 454 and it is the biggest POS out there. I had the E-Prom take a dump on me twice now. This weekend I am pulling the hole thing off there and installing the carb back on it. If I was to do it again I think that I am going to buy the www.Haltech.com computer for it. This is the one I would get. http://www.haltech.com/Products/ECUs/E6GM/e6gm.html It plugs into a stock GM harness and is fully programable and it a rock solid unit. The computer is like $695 and a new wiring Harness from www.force-efi.com would be around $375. BTW the new Holley Commander fuel injection setup is suppose to be really good and was designed by a different guy the the Projection one. I have heard they have had very good luck with it but I will not buy a Holley computer again now matter how good it is.

Thank Heaven for POR!!!

I have learned more about my Holley setup today than I have in 7 months of FUCKING around with it! I have spent countless hours waiting on hold with Holley (it is actually an inside joke with my wife. she asks 'hows Holley doing?'), and the guys there can't give me any advice even when I finally get to talk to them.

There is a big roadster show coming to Portland in May, and my truck will be entered. I wonder if Holley is going to come. Edelbrock usually shows up with their big rig to show off the latest.

Anyway, thanks for EVERYONE'S advice. I don't feel so bad after all, at least I can get the damn thing to run pretty good, doesn't run hot (surges at idle), etc...

Not bad for a stupid photographer eh? Hehe. That's the excuse I always give the guys I'm wheeling with when I'm out on a shoot! :)

My path with Holley is getting clearer now I think.

Later,

Michael

Oh yah, and no matter what I do, i can't get the dam thing to stop surging at idle. When it's warming up... no surge. No surge for the first 5-10 minutes. Then it starts surging. If I hit the throttle, the idle comes up, slowly settles back down, no surge for a couple minutes, then it starts surging again.

I talked to Holley... the guy said "it shouldn't do that". I agreed.

This is fun... more people who have the same problems I did. I thought I was alone in the world with my Pro-jection.

Only 6 more sleeps till my Howell ECM gets here....:)

Tim.

Once upon a nightmare I did some research on aftermarket bolt on EFI systems. I was expecting to hear glowing reviews of the Holley systems but to my dismay found that the majority were ready to form a coup and string somebody up from the nearest tree. Howell's system was the one that stood out and got all the kudos. I hadn't heard of them before that. If I was going to convert to EFI I would be running with the Howell set up hands down.

Just my .02! :beer:

Background, I run the 900 cfm 4Di on my 440.

Mines not perfect either... But a few things to help with the tuning I've found to be invaluable. One get and install an A/F ratio meter. I use autometers. Trying to watch the fuel map on the lap top while driving and tuning is a complete PIA. The A/F ratio meter is easy to read and deal with. It isn't accurate to the knats ass but it gives a good visual and lets you see the changes you are making. Next item to not be without is Holley's hand held tuning box. Notice there are two connectors on the ECM. The flat one that plugs into the laptop and a round one. The round one plugs into the hand held unit. The H/h has adjustment knobs on it and a "save" button. Since aquiring the H/H I've been able to get the map down to a very usable level. Trying to program the map one point at a time via the lap top sucked.

Since there isn't a "440" program included from Holley I started with the base 454 map and tweaked accordingly using the H/H. I use a variation of what holley recommend. They say not to run the H/H and lap top hooked up and operating at the same time. I do. At the point that I tried it I had nothing to loose because I was at the point of pulling it off and going to a carb. Not recommending this, but I have had no problems with my system doing this. What you want to do is get to the MapView on the laptop, then adjust the map via the H/H. Then I make a paper copy of the new map. When you see this working it will make sense. As you adjust the map via the H/H you will notice the map on the lap top change. Unfortunately it doesn't save as it appears. The Holley software sets a % of hange to the base map. So with the above example of the as delivered 454 map, the map does not take on a different appearance after you tune with the H/H, but you will notice now down at the bottom of the screen +/-% under each function. Kind of screwy. But if you make a paper copy (yes it a PIA) while you are hooked up and running you can really get somewhere with making your own custom map.

Shut everything down, take the laptop and your paper map and go in the house sit down in the ol recliner and begin to reprogram the map based on your paper copy. Then go load it up and begin the process all over again. After a couple of these "tuning" sessions you should have your map close enough to spot on.

I normally only work in one part of the map at a time. i.e. work all the bugs out of the idle function first, then part throttle operation, then... Trying to do all at once is harder. It took a period of a month or two to really get it dialed in but it runs very well now. I even have went to the trouble of making a "rock" program, a "street" program and a "WOT" program for wen we go snow bashing or the sand dunes. Each are calibrated slightly different. Of course the "Street' program runs well all the way around.

Other than the tuning hurdle I have no complaints with my system. But that is also the reason I like it, because you can tune it. Thats the biggest turnoff with the Howell system. You get exactly what you tell Howell to program. If its not right then you have to buy another chip, and another, and another... Of course if your dealing with a bone stock engine then the Howell is attractive. If not, well lets just say the Howell leave a bit to be desired. i have experiance with both systems. Howell is good, so is holley, just depends on the application. General rule of thumb is that you need to have really strong manifold vacuum (i.e. a stock engine) for the Howell system to work well. Not to say that it can't work on a big cam, big head engine; just be prepared to spend some bucks on chips to get the final map set right.

Hope that helps, Bob

Oh and one more thing, I used to have the dreaded Screaming idle syndrome after you tried to crawl a ledge and shifted to neutral. You know, as soon as you take it out of gear the idle shoots to like 1800 and then slowly comes down to normal. I fould the TPS to be sticking open even though the throttle blades and throttle was on the curb idle stop. I added a small bracket to the front mounting stud and a attached a light coil spring between it and the blade on the TPS. It helped!!! Mine still like to idle high in that situation but now its only about 1200 and then it climbs back down. Still working that out of it, it's in the fuel map now. Its caused by a rich condition, because if you listen, while it's doing it the IAC motor is on (the hiss) trying to get more air in the mixture to lean out the system.

OOOH cool. Now I'm startin to think that between the 3 or 4 people that actually DO run the Holley system, we might get somewhere.

I had no idea there was a hand holdable tuning device. I'll look into that.

One of the other things that really REALLY bugs me about the Holley system is that damn fuel pump. Mine screams like a whining banshee! Not all the time, but when I hit a bump or two then it really takes off.

I have a pre-filter and a post-filter on the fuel pump directly before and after with a minimum of fuel line between them. I kind of *think* that when air gets into the system it starts to whine.

The first one whined so much that I sent it back and got another. Same thing. My buddie's also whined, and he was so fed up with the whole EFI thing that he went and bought a Q-jet.

M

Originally posted by Serious One
OOOH cool. Now I'm startin to think that between the 3 or 4 people that actually DO run the Holley system, we might get somewhere.

I had no idea there was a hand holdable tuning device. I'll look into that.

One of the other things that really REALLY bugs me about the Holley system is that damn fuel pump. Mine screams like a whining banshee! Not all the time, but when I hit a bump or two then it really takes off.

I have a pre-filter and a post-filter on the fuel pump directly before and after with a minimum of fuel line between them. I kind of *think* that when air gets into the system it starts to whine.

The first one whined so much that I sent it back and got another. Same thing. My buddie's also whined, and he was so fed up with the whole EFI thing that he went and bought a Q-jet.

M

If you are getting air in the pump, you will want to take care of that. Holley pumps are notorious for burning up when you least want it. You may want to talk to the guys at Woodys 4x4 in Vancouver as they have put on a few of these systems.

With all of the work that goes into a FI setup, I am waiting anxiously to see the reports on Holley's new "off road" carb. Curious to see it performs as advertised. If it does, it will be the way to go for the majority of off roaders.

Keep it simple man......

Kman

Hey Blackjack

Thanks for the idea about Woody's too. I know those guys pretty good, but didn't know that they've done Holley EFI systems.

I'll ask them to see what they think.

M

Originally posted by Serious One


I have similar performance characteristics, but I do think that I might have a vaccum leak between the TBI and the aircleaner bottom housing. I have been trying to find just the pur-fect gasket, and have gotten pretty close, but still a leak. I smell fumes when I decelerate and coast.



is smelly decell a sign of a vacuum leak?? I've had that a while and I just thought it was a factor of it being a bit rich??

I thought I might have a small vacuum leak, but haven't bothered to pull it and re-seal it (so many other things to work on, like suspention :D)



Holley 2D, pretty much stock IH 392. Works "OK", I love it and hate it at the same time. Some times it runs great, others crap. Doesn't like aftermarket ignition boxes either (or at least not in my experiance).....

Originally posted by KMAN

3. Pro-jection dumps serious fuel and was designed for street rods with big free flowing heads. My 350 is basically a stock truck 4bolt and was way overgassed even dialed down......therefore.....I installed lower pound injectors (2) and it runs much better for my rock-crawling purposes. I did lose high end power becuase it can't dump enough gas (with my settings)

however

On the trail it starts better, idles better, and doesn't stink.

Initially, I was constantly fouling plugs. I think I went with a 20lbs smaller pod. I had good luck with Holley email and get my parts from JEGS here in Columbus, OH.



how much of a high RPM hit did you take??

I've tried to dial mine down before, at idle and just off idle it was nice and tame, but I had NO power above like 1500 RPM, I finally had to richen it all up to get a nice balance... I still feel that my motor should be much more peppy.. but its a little bit of a dog.. expecialy when I punch it.

now at idle its OK, but there is usually a hesetation off idle....

-mark

OK, one last question....


has anyone found a better pump than the crappy Holley one??


I'd like a GOOD pump, that in not $300, cheaper than the $100 replacement Holley pump would be nice as well.


I've tried a GM TBI in-tank pump as well, but couldn't get the pressure (even though they are rated at 30 psi), plus my tank isn't condusive to an intank pump.....

Mines actually a Marine application, the pump is "different" that a buddy's standard issue. Maybe it's just the sticker??? It's noisy but never given me any trouble in 4+ years.

I lost some power on the highway type cruisin when I switched to the lower injectors....not at 1500 rpm!

Sounds like your pump may not be keepin up??????? Then again, I know nothing about IH 392.

Originally posted by emsoffroad
I have several friends running the setup with the knobs, they work great.

What model # or #'s is the holley setup with the knobs?? The old analog models?

Y'all should get into reprogramming a stock GM computer to run your EFI system (not with a holley 4-bbl TB). My truck runs a stock GM computer that costs $55 at any boneyard.

Squash

Originally posted by Realsquash
Y'all should get into reprogramming a stock GM computer to run your EFI system (not with a holley 4-bbl TB). My truck runs a stock GM computer that costs $55 at any boneyard.

Squash

I now that I am probably on your sh*t list but how do you program the stock GM computer. I would love to do this to my blazer in the future since I have all the hardware that I just took off my truck. Is it very hard to program? Where do you get the software at? I would love to try this out and it would be a lot more reliable than that Holley POS that was on there.

you cant just reprogram the stock GM computer, you have to order a chip from a chip macker like howell, Jet and hypertech.

Originally posted by TrailRunner
you cant just reprogram the stock GM computer, you have to order a chip from a chip macker like howell, Jet and hypertech.

Realsquash has reprogramed the chips with his laptop. He has burned the chips himself. He is running a big block chevy with a multiport injection. I tried to pull his webpage up but I could. His webpage has a bunch of stuff on his fuel injection. Maybe he can let us in on the reprograming secrets.

This site has a good article on burning proms http://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/tech/promintro.shtml. the cost is about $200 bucks, but well worth it for the equip.
I use tunercat for editing the BIN files www.tunercat.comthe definition file for GM TBI's is free with a 30 day trial from tunercat. its easy to burn your own prom's, but takes some time to learn what to change. also get this scantoolhttp://w1.601.telia.com/~u60113744/software/winaldl/winaldl.htm its free, but you need to build your own cable $10 bucks.

Good luck, DAN. :D

I'm currently running Holleys MPFI 950 Commander on my BBC 496. I thought I might run in the older problems that plagued Holley's FI systems like flies on sh*t but so far it's been a decent FI system. It started up the first time using a 502 setup that came from Holley. I fine tuned it a little and later took it to someone that tweaked it a little more. I do have the surging problem when you first start it (RPM's change 200-300) but quits after a couple of minutes. The guy that tweeked it last time said he knows how to fix it now and now has a dyno to help tune it a little more. It supports instant changes with the laptop so a change can be made while on the highway (don't do this alone at 65mph!) It also supports most ignition systems and can control the timing with our without a knock sensor. It also supports forced induction and nitrous, The PCM is small and easy to find room for. Wiring was easier than I thought and was simple to install. Everything is labeled well. I'm using a Comp 276 roller cam and it doesn't seem to mind the larger cam. There's more benefits to the 950 systems than the older 4di systems. I didn't use the inline pump that came with the system. I used a Walbro 255lph in tank pump which can easily support 700hp. Another good FI system is Accels DFI (the newest release). If anyone wants to do it cheaper, I'd definitely reccomend Squashes setup. He's very knowledgable when it comes to FI. I was thinking of going this route but wanted a real time laptop interface.

Originally posted by Donovan


Realsquash has reprogramed the chips with his laptop. He has burned the chips himself. He is running a big block chevy with a multiport injection. I tried to pull his webpage up but I could. His webpage has a bunch of stuff on his fuel injection. Maybe he can let us in on the reprograming secrets.

I JUST took my website down and I'm working on updating it and moving it to a different server that is more reliable and faster... The best thing you can do is get a hold of www.tunercat.com software and some kind of monitoring software, such as Diacom. Diacom is a bit pricey, but there are alternatives, just do an internet search for ALDL.

You need an eprom burner and eraser ($200 max total) and a crappy old laptop to haul around in the truck for some data logging.

There are a couple little cheap things you'd also need, extra eproms, memcals, etc. The rewards are great! You'll be a better person in the end because you will be a much smarter engine tuner if you spend the time to get it right.

And Donovan, you aren't on my shiatlist! Constructive criticism is all good!

Squash

I also have the Commander 950 and the in tank walbro pump like rodent mentioned above. It has worked really well. And the instructions might seem sketchy but like someone said its all there. On all my mistakes I went back only to find it in the manual. All the maps on the commander system are very rich. You can instantly subtract fuel to make it better. I have adjusted the fuel map by using the O2 mod and keeping it the recommended level (89-95) I think. That works great and is easy. Then go to fuel graph and smooth it all out. I got it real close but found a place that does Dyno tuning and he has done several Commander set ups and told me they could Dyno tune it and that will get the best results. I could get by with it like it is but the fine tuning will really make a difference on the fuel mileage and performance.

just figured id give my story. i have the holled 2d 670 cfm pro jection system on my daily driven 86 ford with stock 351w. it took me a few days to tune it but after repeatidly doing the idle/tpi/hand controlled unit i got it running good. i have no problems with the way it runs. my problem was in the winter when it was cold out after the high idle plunger would kick down it would choke itself out. it was fine in the summer and warmer weather but just choked itself out in the winter. it prolly runs a little rich all the time but not to bad. the way i solved the problem is i ran a switch to the high idle unit and to power. now in the winter i flip the switch on and the high idle unit will not shut off till i flip the switch off. other than that i have to say i am very happy with the system. i even installed the more complex system for the dual tanks. i drive the truck daily and have at least 40000 miles and over a year on the pro jection.