closed knuckle 70 thanks to Dave Bergerson

old Dodge? Low spline count? D44 U-joints?
Looks purty, somebody must be fixing the weak links

these are Tracta Joints, no their not u-joints and no their not big birfs either

yeah those are strong. what truck did that axle come out of?

now look very closely at the size difference

Can you unlock the Hubs or are they a fixed hub plate?

Looks like there are no roller bearings, how does it deal with friction when the steering is full left/right?

Looks BIG:eek:

Eric

Originally posted by mossberg
now look very closely at the size difference

What are you comparing it to there, a 60 shaft??

Looks like they would be super strong as long as you always drove in a straight line, maybe weak when you cut the wheels. If anybody else wants something like that, skeetshooter has a big ass Napco front with the same tracta joints.

Yo moss, is that for your Yota bro? SAWWWEEEEET

Originally posted by VeloCJ
old Dodge? Low spline count? D44 U-joints?
Looks purty, somebody must be fixing the weak links

yes old Dodge but it has no u-joints!

Originally posted by MeenGreen63
yeah those are strong. what truck did that axle come out of?

came out of a 2 1/2 ton Dodge 4x4 driller/concrete buster, this thing has never seen the street, it was trailered from jobsite to jobsite.

Originally posted by Alpo23
Can you unlock the Hubs or are they a fixed hub plate?

Looks like there are no roller bearings, how does it deal with friction when the steering is full left/right?

Looks BIG:eek:

Eric

yes it has warn hubs just like a 60, the main and stub axles rest on bronze bushings, there are no bearing in the tracta joint, just thick meaty slabs of steel

now look very closely at the size difference
Ok... so a 44 is smaller than a 70? :flipoff2: Whod-a-thunk? :D

Ya gotta give us a picture that makes better sense, too. Show us a shot into the mouth of the Tracta joint, with a Dana 60 u-joint uncapped for reference... I'm curious about the difference in cross-sectional mass, 4 trunions vs. (effectively) two plates. Tough to compare 'em, actually, since the Tracta engages from the pivot of the joint on out on one axis, and from the 'caps' on in on the other... and a u-joint engages at the caps, with a secondary pivot across the center of the joint's cast body.

Don't get me wrong -- a seventy is a sweet axle, but the closed-knuckle 70s are a compromise over the open knuckles, both in turning radius and most likely, ultimate strength. When you break the axles, drop in a Spicer-style set of axles and u-joints.

Randii

Ok so how does that tractor joint work??? I cant picture it working like how I can with a norem U joint

Originally posted by randii
now look very closely at the size difference
Ok... so a 44 is smaller than a 70? :flipoff2: Whod-a-thunk? :D

Ya gotta give us a picture that makes better sense, too. Show us a shot into the mouth of the Tracta joint, with a Dana 60 u-joint uncapped for reference... I'm curious about the difference in cross-sectional mass, 4 trunions vs. (effectively) two plates. Tough to compare 'em, actually, since the Tracta engages from the pivot of the joint on out on one axis, and from the 'caps' on in on the other... and a u-joint engages at the caps, with a secondary pivot across the center of the joint's cast body.

Don't get me wrong -- a seventy is a sweet axle, but the closed-knuckle 70s are a compromise over the open knuckles, both in turning radius and most likely, ultimate strength. When you break the axles, drop in a Spicer-style set of axles and u-joints.

Randii

Scott Kurtzer, a good friend of mine (who Mike Schaffer used to work for) says these are much stronger than a 60 U-joint. if a 60 was stronger beleive me i would use one. 60s are much easerier to find than these. these joints were VERY expensive for Dana to build, they were hand carved on a lath, unlike a 60 joint. thats why they didnt make too many if them. i dont think i will be breaking these joints but if i do i also have a set of spares and i will make the same joint next time out of 4140. i wont be running 60 style u-joints anytime soon! i only had a 44 lying around to compare the size so you can get an idea of the strenth of this joint.

What are the spline counts for the shafts inner and outer?

Eric

on this front the spline count is 23 inner and outer and on the rear axle its 35

ok, since it's obviouse the pitch is courser than the D-60 what is the diameter of the shafts? being courser I can't get a mental image of relative size. I would hope it is at least as big of a shaft as the D-60 or you wouldn't be going through the trouble of puting this under a Toy:eek: :D
You got your own mill for making those steering arms or did you have to use one that a friend had?Just curiouse, I work as a machinest.

Eric

shafts are 1 1/2'' same as a 60. the lathe belongs to Dave Bergerson. he is the master mind behind this whole project!

...these are much stronger than a 60 U-joint.
Well, I disagree, but I have only held the parts in my hand and compared them visually... I haven't run them. It'll be interesting to see how they hold up for you. Older Toyota Cruisers used a similar technology in their axle joints, and those were weaker than the same size Birfield, and coarse-splined, to boot.

these joints were VERY expensive for Dana to build, they were hand carved on a lath, unlike a 60 joint.
Ummm.... that's a comment on the production process, to me, more than the strength.

i dont think i will be breaking these joints but if i do i also have a set of spares and i will make the same joint next time out of 4140. i wont be running 60 style u-joints anytime soon!
If you go through these like most of us go through Birfields, be prepared to get some ribbing! :D :flipoff2: :D

Props to you, though, for trying to do something a bit different than the crowd of folks going after those stylish 60's or Rockwells. :rasta:

Randii

Originally posted by mossberg
shafts are 1 1/2'' same as a 60. the lathe belongs to Dave Bergerson. he is the master mind behind this whole project!

Master mind :eek: or Lunatic ?:D :D

Eric

[QUOTE]Originally posted by randii
Older Toyota Cruisers used a similar technology in their axle joints, and those were weaker than the same size Birfield, and coarse-splined, to boot.


are you sure you were holding a 70 and not a 44 or 60? how many times do i have to say these are nothing klike a 44 or 60 setup the toyota LC had a joint that looked like a close knuckle 44 or 60. nothing like this! i woulnt run a closed knuckle 60 if you paid me! those things are WEAK

I would run them if you paid me!!!! it just depends how much
:rasta:

mossberg,
how come you're running 23 spline inners and outers?
it seems that if you're going to the trouble of getting custom shafts you should be able to upgrade to 35 splines
or don't they make a 35 spline side gears for a 70?

maybe the current shafts are from dana and the custom ones out ouf 4140 will be 35 spl?

i think your axle is bad-ass and I would trade my 60 for it any day
lets see more pics!

tractas are dope!

i dont have the $ for custom shafts, i have to run stock for now. but if and when i break i will use 4340!

i think your axle is bad-ass and I would trade my 60 for it any day... tractas are dope!
I know where two sets of these 70s are rusting, awaiting attention... if I clean 'em up and spray some fresh black on 'em, will you trade that sixty to *ME*?

Hell, I could turn around and sell that 60 for profit! Think how many Birfields I could buy for the cash!

Randii

I just picked one of these axles up today, runs the tracta-joint, definitly beefy stuff, I would rather have 35 splines but can't have everything. the big attraction for me was price ($200 for the pair) already runs 5.89's so i don't need gears, my question is what to do for brakes and rims? what precisly year and truck wise did these come under? can you still get drums and shoes? convert em to 8 lug and run disks?
oh yeah if someone knows where there are spare shafts let me know I'd love to have an extra set just incase

The reason dana didn't refine the production of these axles is because they suck. Perfect for straight line driving, but once you cut the wheel all the way to one side, the dual plate disintagrates. Hope you didn't spend alot of money on this conversion.

If these axle were that great the people at rockwell wouldn't be selling all the 2½ ton axles that put them on the map.

Why isnt it under the truck yet?

it is now!


Originally posted by neverenuf
Why isnt it under the truck yet?

:flipoff2:

yeah the dual plate turns into a single plate that is twice as thick.
and if these axles sucked woulnt they put them under a 1/2 ton? like a D44? not a 2 1/2 ton dumptruck?

well i am not saying these are as strong as a rockwell but my front and rear axles were $250 and that includes spare axles and tracta joints for the front.

You will break the inner axle about 6 inches from the joint. I have a set of the outers and the joints if you need them. I hope you also are running hub flanges.:) I run 35 spline u-joint axles now.

what motor did you break them with? a 427 chevy?
i am running a 20R 4 banger toyota will it still break?

yeah I noticed the shafts neck down a fair bit between the joint and shaft. if you have spares I'd love to have em, cost is the main attraction right now, planning to machine down the hubs a bit and re-drill them to 8-6 1/2, seems to me I can buy a lathe for less than a dana60 goes for these days. much later I can upgrade to 35 spline shafts and large joints if required. anyone know what the biggest joint you can fit in that closed knuckle is?

I picked up a D-70 front from an international dump truck(1 1/2-2ton?)awhile back cheap just to see what made it tick! Closed knuckle,35spline inner and outers,1480 joint and 6:17 gears. Was thinking about putting D-60 open knuckle stuff on it someday and narrowing it to 69" when I get caught up.
This thing has 3 3/4" OD axle tubes and beefed up housing.
You can see a pic of it here with the donor 60 housing.
http://community.webshots.com/user/rgf30

Sorry about the no clicky but to lazy to fiqure that out today!!!

RGF

Originally posted by mytzlflick
yeah I noticed the shafts neck down a fair bit between the joint and shaft. if you have spares I'd love to have em, cost is the main attraction right now, planning to machine down the hubs a bit and re-drill them to 8-6 1/2, seems to me I can buy a lathe for less than a dana60 goes for these days. much later I can upgrade to 35 spline shafts and large joints if required. anyone know what the biggest joint you can fit in that closed knuckle is?

all the tracta joints are the same size no matter if your running 23 or 35 spline axles.

Originally posted by RGF
I picked up a D-70 front from an international dump truck(1 1/2-2ton?)awhile back cheap just to see what made it tick! Closed knuckle,35spline inner and outers,1480 joint and 6:17 gears. Was thinking about putting D-60 open knuckle stuff on it someday and narrowing it to 69" when I get caught up.
This thing has 3 3/4" OD axle tubes and beefed up housing.
You can see a pic of it here with the donor 60 housing.
http://community.webshots.com/user/rgf30

Sorry about the no clicky but to lazy to fiqure that out today!!!

RGF

so you have a D70 with D60 u-joints? not tracta joints?

Yeah,Inside that closed knuckle it was full of grease and it had a 1480 series u-joint,35spline stubs and inners. But like all the early Dana axles it had the neckdown inner shafts,this was from a 1970 truck.I dont think it would be that hard to convert to open knuckle using all D-60 stuff axleshafts included but would it be worth the work to gain alittle ringgear???

RGF

do not destroy a good 60 for this. it woulnt be worth it. only do this if you have a wrecked 60 or on one that you use for parts.

I can't wait to hear how this works out. Cheers :beer: to you for thinking outside the bun. :D Different is good...

there isn't really a point that I can see in upgrading a d70 front with 60 outers and open knuckles, if I had all that I'd already have a 60 up front. even with the smaller 60 gear I'd still bust joints first.

Originally posted by mossberg


so you have a D70 with D60 u-joints? not tracta joints?

spicer made a bunch of 70 fronts that were closed knuckle but had u-joints instead of the tracta joint.The tracta joint is vintage late 50's and early 60's technology..They upgraded to a u-joint style for international and dodge trucks in 1967..The dodges had a closed knuckle 70 front from 1967 to1975 in a 3/4 ton and one ton version truck and from 1974-1978 in a w600 truck.International had them from 1968 1/2 to 1975 in its 1300 series truck and from 1967-78 in it 1600 series truck and "special equipment"."typically", the 70 fronts that were closed knuckle with 8-lug pattern have the u-joint and the ones with the wide military pattern(5 or 6 can't remember which)are the tracta joint style..A open knuckle disc brake 60 F is still a superior axle than a closed knuckle 70 front...But, for $250 bucks you can't go to wrong since that is way cheaper than a 60F.:D

first off we own 4 dana 70 fronts. 2 six lug versions and 2 eight lug version axles. they all use tracta joints the differince being six lug versions use 1 1/2 inch 23 spline iner axles the eight lug versions are 1 -1/2 inch 35 spline iners axles the stub axles are all 1 3/8 21 spline Mossberg has maneged to purches 2 70 fronts for a total of 250dollars:flipoff2: ha ha. most wrecking yards will charge 250.00 dollars for one dana 44 front axle. for what we paid for these axles its more bang for the buck. parts are hard to come by but the resorseful 4wheler will make it work without calling 1-800-ALL-PRO. A dana 70 front axle was never installed under any trucks that were under 1 ton. the axle shafts and tracta joints are stronger than most drive train seen today on most trail rigs. unless you have unlimted money resorces. we can discuss this further at the camp fire.



:beer: :beer:

So, can you give me a vehicle list for 8 lug D70s with tractas?

Ron

A dana 70 front axle was never installed under any trucks that were under 1 ton. the axle shafts and tracta joints are stronger than most drive train seen today on most trail rigs. unless you have unlimted money resorces. we can discuss this further at the camp fire.

You really shouldn't say never....I hate to break it to you but I am looking at the spicer axle book and it is listed in a 67-72 Dodge w200(that is 3/4 ton)and w300 trucks...Plus, I have seen one personally in a 3/4 ton dodge truck from the early 70's..As for a 8 lugger with a tracta joint I would think it was one of the first ones produced with a eight lug pattern because I have seen several with closed knuckles with 8 lug pattern that sported u joints. Once again this is verified in the spicer book as 67-72 Dodge w200-w300 used the tracta joint which was in the 8 lug pattern.And no all closed knuckle 70's do not use tracta joints as the following part number is for a Dodge closed knuckle 70 inner axle with a spicer joint ...903670-1 and 903670-2, 902252-10 and 902252-11(this last two are for 1974-1978 Dodge w600's and international put closed knuckle 70's with u-joints in their 1300 series pickup from 19671/2 to 1975 with the part number 903670-1 and 903670-2, 1600 series international truck from 1967 to 73 with part numbers 902252-1 and 902252-2.All these part numbers are for 35 spline inners with a u-joint .The u-joint is part number 5-88x.Either way good luck.:D

ok, with all those parts numbers tell me, what would I need to convert my cheapo dana70 from 6 on 7 1/4 pattern drum brake to 8 6 1/2 pattern disks without wasting a bundle of cash that I am trying not to spend.
how much are those 35 spline axles worth? might make a perfect upgrade when (if) I bust a tracta.

I forgot to add that for all the Dodge closed knuckle 70 fronts I mentioned with those part number as indicated used 35 spline outer axle shafts as well as 35 spline inner except the ones using the tracta joint.The ones with the tracta joint do not have a stub axle listed for them..Just for FYI the part number for the dodge closed knuckle 70 front using tracta joint inner shafts was 26305-1x and 26305-2x(more than likley discontinued) The international closed knuckle from 19681/2 to 75 in the 1300 series truck used the 35 inner with the 21 spline outer..But, it still used a u-joint in that application and not the tracta joint. As for converting to disc..probably what you could do is buy some 8 lug rotors and try redrilling the bearing hub to the 8 lug pattern.This might require welding up the present holes and even turning the bearing hub down a little to fit into the rotor. A cheap way to use disc would be to use a 80-90 ford standard 3/4 ton rotor(29.99 each at advance auto) with a 1/2 ton chevy caliper(23 dollars each at auto zone with no cores).You could make a bracket out of 1/4 plate(or whatever thickness you desire) that bolted the splindle.This is basically my set-up for my rear disc brakes on both of my 70 rears.I know that the dynatrac 5 on 5 1/2 front 60 uses the ford rotor hub assembly and a straight piece of plate for the caliper bracket made from I think 1/4 or 3/8 with a chevy caliper(at least the one I saw on a friends rig).The only catch is that you might have to grind on the knuckle for clearence for the caliper.don't know for sure because I never converted a closed knuckle 60 or 70 to disc.But, I have convereted a monsterious closed knuckle dana 27 :eek: over to disc and I had to grind on the knuckle for the caliper to clear and I have done the same for a closed knuckle 44 and had to grind on the knuckle for clearence as well.Also, had to change the plug in the side the knuckle to a flush mounting plug.This is all speculation without sitting down and looking at one with the parts in front of me..Hope this helps.:D

yeah I can turn down and redrill the hubs to fit disks and dodge 8 lug wheels but..... I don't own a lathe yet. I was kinda hoping I would be able to find 8 lug hubs in a wrecking yard someplace that would fit.

ok onetonwillysands10, what are the dementions for this D70 u-joint? it would have to be pretty small to fit in the knuckle and turn. i think your looking at a 44. post some pics to. i just cant see Dana using a weak u-joint in place of the tracta joint. Dana made a big closed knuckle 44 that looks like a 70 and i think thats what your looking at.

The dimensions of the ujoint are the same as the 1480 series joint seen in current dana 60 fronts. I am not looking at a dana 44.I am reading you the section for dana 70 front axles for DODGE and INTERNATIONAL trucks in the spicer front and rear axle catalog for 1967-1978 which is part number x510-8 dsd not to mention I have personally looked at one of these axles that belongs to a friend. If you would like I will be glad to send you copies of the pages from the catalog showing what models they came in and etc...If you still don't believe me look at this picture I posted comparing a dana 44, dana 70 21 spline outer stub and joint(that came off a dana 70 front) to a rockwell 2.5 ton.The reason that spicer used the u-joint is that despite what you believe the tracta joint doesn't hold up well and breaks easier than a u-joint particulary when the tires are turned.I do believe that is why those axleshaft numbers I provided for a tracta joint axleshaft have been discontinued and spicer went to a u-joint style axleshaft.The axles in m-37's use a similar design and the early rockwells 2.5 tons used a similiar set-up prior to going to a u-joint style axle.Which in the case of the rockwell the old style similar to the tracta joint would break really easy and this why those style rockwells are to be avoided.. The picture I spoke of can be viewed at the following link www.sportswritersdaily.com/ujointrockwell.jpg or you can search rockwell u-joint.In the thread I said it was a 60 shaft;BUT, it is a dana 70 outer from a closed knuckle 70 that belongs to a friend. If you ever break one you could swap to the u-joint style or talk to JACK at CTM because that is something he specializes in.Although I don't think you will have the problem since I think you mentioned you were running a four cylinder..Which leads me to ask .If you are running a four cylinder what size tires are you running? I can't imagine that the 70 provides very good ground clearence unless you were running 40 inch plus tires which would be quite difficult for the 4 banger to turn. I hope this helps.:D

Originally posted by mytzlflick
yeah I can turn down and redrill the hubs to fit disks and dodge 8 lug wheels but..... I don't own a lathe yet. I was kinda hoping I would be able to find 8 lug hubs in a wrecking yard someplace that would fit.

Well something you might try if you can pick them up cheap in a junkyard is to buy a set of bearing hubs from a rear 70 and see if they will work on the front.It might be worth a try.Since your 70 is a closed knuckle front it should use external drive flanges or external lockouts.So this might work, but , I have no idea for sure.:D

hmm, I hadn't thought of that, anyone happen to know the bearing numbers for a rear 70 and their spacings? as long as I can get the hub on I can fab the brakes.

Originally posted by mytzlflick
hmm, I hadn't thought of that, anyone happen to know the bearing numbers for a rear 70 and their spacings? as long as I can get the hub on I can fab the brakes.

I know that both of my 70 rears use the same inner bearing/race and outer bearing/race as my 60 fronts(chevy 60's)..Inner bearing and race is a 387a/382a and outer bearing and race is a set 38.I know that some 70's do use a different inner bearing(possibly outer,but,can't find it in the book to be sure) which is still the same numeric number ;but, it is a "AS" instead of just an "A"..Good luck and let us know what you find out.:D

looked up replacement bearings in the parts book today and rear d70's seem to have different numbers than fronts, going the sure route and turning the stock knuckles down to 8 lug.

Originally posted by RGF
I picked up a D-70 front from an international dump truck(1 1/2-2ton?)awhile back cheap just to see what made it tick! Closed knuckle,35spline inner and outers,1480 joint and 6:17 gears. Was thinking about putting D-60 open knuckle stuff on it someday and narrowing it to 69" when I get caught up.
This thing has 3 3/4" OD axle tubes and beefed up housing.
You can see a pic of it here with the donor 60 housing.
http://community.webshots.com/user/rgf30

Sorry about the no clicky but to lazy to fiqure that out today!!!

RGF


Thats a 70 rear coverted to a 70 front

Originally posted by mossberg



Thats a 70 rear coverted to a 70 front dum dum

Mossberg, which axle do you think in those pictures is dana 70 rear converted to a front? what are you basing this on? Just curious..:D

http://community.webshots.com/user/rgf30

on dana 44, 60, 70, fronts the spring pad is machined into the housing on truck apps. hit the picture that says transfers/axles then hit d70:smokin:

Originally posted by mossberg
http://community.webshots.com/user/rgf30

on dana 44, 60, 70, fronts the spring pad is machined into the housing

Sharp eye:eek:

That axle as never been converted,what Dana did in 1970 to use in a front application I dont know or care.In the picture it is sitting next to a full width GM D-60 and you can see how wide the 70 is compared so how would a cast in pad work there?

You should do some better research before calling someone a dum dum, unless you like the taste of shoe leather!

If and when I put the D-60 open knuckle stuff on it would be far superior to your low spline count,neck-down axleshafted,hard to find parts for axle.

RGF

yeah whatever NEWBIE! show me a picture of a 70 front that dosent have the spring pad casted on the side of the pumkin dum dum:p

Originally posted by mossberg
http://community.webshots.com/user/rgf30

on dana 44, 60, 70, fronts the spring pad is machined into the housing on truck apps. hit the picture that says transfers/axles then hit d70:smokin:

Ummmm, saw all those pictures and I wouldn't necessarily agree with you. Certainly, the fact that there is not a spring pad cast into the housing does not mean anything..Ever seen a closed knuckle 70 in Kaiser truck....came spring under..and no I was not looking at a closed knuckle 60..I know the frigging difference,but, then again the 70 stamped on the housing wouldn'y mean anythign either....once again don't say never:rolleyes: I actually thought you might be using the width to classify it as a converted rear....which once again is not a reliable reason to classify it as a converted 70 rear...spicer made a crapload of different dana 70 fronts with one version sporting a long side axle inner axle that was 44. 53 inches without the stub axle...look it up if you want ,part number 660182-4..FYI there are a total of 33 versions of the dana 70 axle(front and rear):D