Re: chop saw tube notching.

[sceep]

Wow. no more chop saw for me.

As i sat there... unsafely freehanding away, i glanced left.

what did i see sitting there?

The DIE GRINDER.

DAAAAAAAAAAMMMN. that works 10000X better than the chop saw.

Next time yer gittin ready to choke up on that piece of tube and tear into it with the chop saw, haul out the die grinder, you'll be pleasantly suprized.

Oh yeah. If you dont already have a pipe vice. go get one. ;)

[GED]

Please elaborate! I've heard about the chop saw method alot too but they all seem to be a whole bunch of work to get a rough fit at best. What's the secret??

[sceep]

Please elaborate! I've heard about the chop saw method alot too but they all seem to be a whole bunch of work to get a rough fit at best. What's the secret??

1.get some of these
http://www.vansantent.com/pipemaster.htm
2. trace cope onto tube with sharpie.
3. cut along mark as accuratley as possible
4. clean up to mark with grinder.
5. weld

:smokin:

[AVS60/40SPLIT]

this weekend, 4 1/2 die grinder, cutting disc at home depot $1.87, grinding wheel $3.50 works pretty good,wish i had a tube notcher tough.

[BadDog]

I'm guessing you mean angle grinder rather than die grinder? If so, I agree completely and use mine a lot in that capacity.

[The Jerk]

band saw

[m016324]

mill

-ben

[foley]

I kinda go 1/2 and 1/2...

miter cut it with the chop saw, then clean up the "fishmouth" a bit with the grinder... and weld.

I used to do that tracing BS... once you get a feel for what a good notch looks like you don't need it any more.

[shelljeep]

Sawzall to rough it in and the angle grinder to finetune it.
Vice is mandatory.

[Danger Ranger]

Please elaborate! I've heard about the chop saw method alot too but they all seem to be a whole bunch of work to get a rough fit at best. What's the secret??

It's not rocket science! maybe if you had more than a GED you could figure it out :flipoff2:

[muddinmike]

40 dollar tube notcher from HF. works great

[shelljeep]

40 dollar tube notcher from HF. works great
On about 10% of the notches I make. :shaking: Very limited.
In a word, crap.
Actually, crap that I have broken.

[BlueTorch]

I like a chop saw. Very fast... then just hit it on the disk sander or belt sander for about a second. Done.

[Chrisjeep7]

^^^ditto, when i was fabbing cages, links, bumpers, fenders for my buddys shop this summer thats what i did. you get good at it after a few 12hr days...

[snoop dogg]

ive always used an angle grinder, whats the method for a chop saw?

[braxton357]

For a 90* intersection, you cut two 45's into the end of the tube to make it look like a point. Grind down the points and flash from the chop saw and you have yourself a nice notch. Do it a few times with some scrap tube and you'll figure out how to do other angles.

[rockmup]

None of yall can operate a torch?


Why yes, yes I do.

[BadDog]

My post was in reference to his original "freehand on a chop saw" vs. "diegrinder" (aka Angle Grinder) for cutting to fit.

I also set my chop saw for 45* and cut a close approximation, then clamp in place (pipe vice does work well but can be in the wrong place), and then "fit" to a piece of scrap at the proper angle.

[fc187]

when someone says die grinder, I see an inline grinder with a chuck/collet, that produces EVIL little burrs when using a carbide tip :eek:

now a sanding drum on an electric die grinder?.... works pretty damn good for cleaning up a fish mouth for a TIGHT fit.

9 times out of 10 a saw (porta band/sawsall/chopsaw) and a grinder works bitchen.

hole saws suck. too time consuming and a PITA. I used to use them allot before I was converted to the saw/grinder method. :beer:

[JeepinDoug]

Portabands are pretty sweet, just some touch up from the 4.5" flapper does the trick.

[sceep]

please note: i AM NOT reffering to an angle grinder. I am refering to a DIE GRINDER, http://www.lukesmachinery.com/media/Makita-906-Die-Grinder-1.jpg

equiped with a 2" cutoff wheel.

Works kick ass. same theory as a chop saw but much more accurate. You can clmp your tube into the vice, at tabeltop, working height, and follow your cope lines. 2 seconds with the angle grinder to smooth the corners. done.

[Mechanos]

On about 10% of the notches I make. :shaking: Very limited.
In a word, crap.
Actually, crap that I have broken.
I HAD one of those cheapo HF nothcers.... bent and twisted the 3/8" plate aluminum body of the notcher when the hole saw caught and bound. That was after about 40% of my notches were done. I did the rest by roughing out the notch with the cutting torch and cleaning the slag off and fine tuning it with the angle grinder.

[JamisonWorkshop]

I hear mixed opinions on the harbor freight notcher. I am more than pleased with mine.
Have done over 100 nothces with it, it is quick, and I am only on my second hole saw, and that was only to speed up the cut a little. Was getting a little dull. Wobbleing a little bit now but still quicker than any cutting method.

Only downfall is that you cannot do compound notches. When that comes up I go to the angle grinder.

[YeeP]

jd2 tube notcher used with my angle finder, and grinder with a flapper wheel, works great for me....

(edit) A while ago Scott Elinger reccomended an "annular bit" which I ended up buying. They are great because you can choose the bit depth unlike a hole saw, so you dont have to cut half way through when you are doing those funky angles. Also I have been using my annular for over 8 months, and it is still doing great. Well worth what it cost.

Ryan

[BadDog]

please note: i AM NOT reffering to an angle grinder. I am refering to a DIE GRINDER, equiped with a 2" cutoff wheel.

Works kick ass. same theory as a chop saw but much more accurate. You can clmp your tube into the vice, at tabeltop, working height, and follow your cope lines. 2 seconds with the angle grinder to smooth the corners. done.
Wow, your die grinder must be much better than any of mine. Mine don't do so well with stuff heavier than sheet. Goes too slow and the disks don't seem to hold up. I've quit using mine all together in favor of a cut-off on an angle grinder. Anyway, sorry for assuming you meant angle grinder, I've seen people cross the terms before and based on my experiences, I thought that was what happened.

[sceep]

Wow, your die grinder must be much better than any of mine. Mine don't do so well with stuff heavier than sheet. Goes too slow and the disks don't seem to hold up. I've quit using mine all together in favor of a cut-off on an angle grinder. Anyway, sorry for assuming you meant angle grinder, I've seen people cross the terms before and based on my experiences, I thought that was what happened.

I;ve cut 1/4" with it before. i wouldnt do that on a regular basis, but it worked.

[Tolly]

I have seen one do a notch with the chop saw and was very impressed buy the speed and accuracy. He had been doing it for many years. I tried it and felt like a monkey screwing a football. I have a Pro-Tools Race version notcher and am happy with its performance. I am also surprised you are able to notch with the die grinder cut off wheels. What type of tubing are you notching? I used those cutoff wheels in a pinch before and they don't last no time. What about using a plasma or a torch to notch?

[NVCJ]

Mitering vice for drill press and hole saw...4dollar hole saw lasts for about 15 cuts... :shaking:

[JeepinDoug]

please note: i AM NOT reffering to an angle grinder. I am refering to a DIE GRINDER, http://www.lukesmachinery.com/media/Makita-906-Die-Grinder-1.jpg

equiped with a 2" cutoff wheel.

Works kick ass. same theory as a chop saw but much more accurate. You can clmp your tube into the vice, at tabeltop, working height, and follow your cope lines. 2 seconds with the angle grinder to smooth the corners. done.

Try a cutting wheel on a 4.5" angle grinder, more hp to use.

[mudddog91]

I just have to inject my .02.Im nearing completion on my first buggy project and Ive tried the chop saw method ,the angle grinder method,and I bought a cheap HF notcher.The chop saw method really sucked for me........the angle grinder method seemed to take forever and the HF notcher in a drill press worked like a champ.Of course the bushings are all but wore out but Ive used only 2 hole saws in the whole build up and I only changed out the first one because it was starting to cut slower..........I would say a high dollar notcher with a slow drill press and lots of lube is the ticket.What are these ANNULAR bits you speak of?????

[blacksheep10]

the pro tools notcher and a deep hole say, drill press for $100 and the table on it is notched. compound cuts, whatever, very quickly. Nice addition to a bender and dewalt multicutter, and cheap when you consider safety, etc. Just use lube.

[tigweld]

The chop saw method,if understood , is a science. With known tube size and joint angle, tube can be notched with great accuracy. The notch is acheved by cutting two opposing angles on one end of a peice of tube, to form a point. The cross-section of this cut will be an elipitical cut due to the shape of the tube. Changes in boath of the two angled cuts must be made for the intersection angle and the size of the two tubes being joined. The only real limitation is the max angle of the chop saw.

You start with what I call the base angle. This is the angle of boath cuts if the joint was 90*. For an example, I am fitting Two tubes together that are boath 1.75", at an 90* joint. The base angle, or the angle of boath cuts is 28*. These two cuts must meet at a point, and the point must allso be centered on the tube.

What if I want an 15* joint with my 1.75" tube???? You must start with your base angle, witch was 28* for 1.75"(remember above), and subtract 15* from one cut, and add 15* to the other cut to form a perfect notch. So now I must make a 13* cut and an 43* cut , with the point centered on the tube. Perfect coped joint, with no grinding.

Remember your base angle will change with the tube being cut and the tube that you are fitting to.

Here are a few examples of base angles...

2.0" to 2.0" tube, base angle of 30*

1.75" to 1.75" tube, base angle of 28*

1.5" to 1.5" tube, base angle of 26*

1.25" to 1.25" tube, base angle of 22.5*

1" to 1" tube, Base angle of 20*

Now to fit diffrent size tubes together :shaking:

1.75" to 2" tube, base angle of 25*

1.75" to 1.25" tube, base angle of 45*

1.25" to 1.75 tube, base angle of 20*

1" to 2" tube, base angle of 12*


I hope that helps :smokin: :smokin:

[darkstar]

Maybe its too early in the morning, but I'm having a hard time picturing how you get an elliptical cut from a chop saw?? Got any pics?

[chumly2071]

Excellent information. Is this info compiled somewhere on the web or in a book. Or, has it been compiled via personal experience? I would love to get more in depth in this area.

thanks for the info!!!

Chad

[chumly2071]

Maybe its too early in the morning, but I'm having a hard time picturing how you get an elliptical cut from a chop saw?? Got any pics?

the cut makes the edges of the tube an ellipse, rather than an arc or a straight line.

[YJBrian]

Cut the tubes to a point.
rotate tube 90* and look at it from that side

http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~laughlib/Pics/Tubenotch.jpg

[darkstar]

Got it, thanks!! A picture is worth a thousand words, I guess. :D

[chumly2071]

Got it, thanks!! A picture is worth a thousand words, I guess. :D


I'll second that!! I modeled up a quick tube in Pro/E, and it definitely works as described,.....

At what thickness does the gap on the sides become a problem?

Also, in the computer world, the * from 28 is not matching up with the assembled * from 90 I am trying to move... am I doing something wrong? (gotta love DFO errors... ;) )

[tigweld]

Thanks guys, I thought it might be hard to understand. I have learned this method through personal experance(I fit alum. sch40 pipe all day, for the last 7 years).The computer modle is great, that took me 200 words. You may need to fine tune these numbers by maby +-1* dew to wall thickness.

YJBrian, can you do a second pic with the 15* joint(13* and 43* cuts). I think that will make it crystal clear.

[jasonmt]

Wow, your die grinder must be much better than any of mine. Mine don't do so well with stuff heavier than sheet. Goes too slow and the disks don't seem to hold up. I've quit using mine all together in favor of a cut-off on an angle grinder.


Both the Hitachi and the Dewalt work good for me. I have burned out a few of the Hitachi's when using them hard (Cutting 4" sch 80 pipe from the inside) but for home use no problems. The Dewalt has plenty of power, pictured next to a 5" Makita for size comparison. Quality discs will last for about 1-4" pipe cut depending on my mood.

[YJBrian]

Here's the 15* cut with your angles on a 1.75", 0.25 wall tube. Note that it is not quite a perfect fit by the model on the left. I suppose that this is where you tweak the angles to get the proper fit.

http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~laughlib/Pics/15degfit.jpg


Does anyone know of a general formula to get the correct cut angles with the tube angle and OD/ID of the tube? Perhaps I'll do a little geometry and see if there is a general rule that can be followed.

[JeepinDoug]

I haven't seen if anyone threw this one out here but all it takes is a couple of your numbers and a printer. I never tried it because I've been notching tube for eons with a Dale Wilch notcher and angle grinder.
Tube coping calculator (http://geek.casaforge.com/code/newform_m.php)

[jasonmt]

Does anyone know of a general formula to get the correct cut angles with the tube angle and OD/ID of the tube? Perhaps I'll do a little geometry and see if there is a general rule that can be followed.

The rule of thumb posted by tigweld is going to get you 95% of the way there on the sizes of tubing used for 99% of the fabrication in the 4x4 world. If you look at the attached picture all the straight cut provided by a chopsaw does is to give you the best fit tangent to the curve. You still need to grind the wall to match the curve of the pipe if you want a perfect fit. If you are really bored you can use the ID of the Tube being stubbed on as the chord length (L), chord depth as (D) and Radius being that of the OD of the tube you are stubbing to and use this: Radius = ((L / 2)^2 + D^2) / 2D. Solving for D will give you the height for the base angle, with the length being the ID/2 of the stub, use tan to give you the base angle. You will find that the calculated numbers are within 1.5* of tigwelds which is close enough for the accuracy you are going to get out of a chop saw.

[sceep]

Both the Hitachi and the Dewalt work good for me.

hey thats the same hitachi i use!! :grinpimp:

[YJBrian]

I guess it never hurts to ask before doing the math!

Thanks guys

[tigweld]

YJBrian,

You will find that this will work better with thin wall tube. I belive the numbers I posted will work best with .060-.120" wall tube. If you need to do thicker wall you can allways touch up with a grinder :flipoff2: .

[redrangie]

PLASMA!

(and contour gauge w/angle finder)

[YJBrian]

YJBrian,

You will find that this will work better with thin wall tube. I belive the numbers I posted will work best with .060-.120" wall tube. If you need to do thicker wall you can allways touch up with a grinder :flipoff2: .

Gotcha. My model was in .25" wall. It is an interesting method. Glad I learned it while I'm still young! :D

[beartj]

while I'm still young! :D
'da nile ain't just a river

[haystax]

Makita angle grinder and cutoff blade works great, those monster electric die grinders are the shit!! A good carbide bit in one of those puts almost all air tools to shame.

I found a 2" grinding plug that screws onto the grinder just like a wire cup, works really good for getting perfect bevels on all sides of the tube.

[timf1]

tube mitre exe (http://www.ihpva.org/people/tstrike/tubemiter.exe )

nput the tube dimensions and it draws you a printable template ...

[beyondhelp]

Not too much to add except this pic of an annular bit.

http://www.cdtechno.com/cd/library/manual/m0177/figure506_5.jpg

[bspencer]

i know its an old thread but its got soem good info!

[Ian from Xtreme]

I like the "Tube Shark" notcher for specific angles, but as stated about the HF notcher it is hard to do a compound notch. The "Scotchman" abrasive notcher has always been my favourite for speed. It is very expensive, but it can notch tube so fast it feels worth it.

We just brought in a "low buck" tools notcher to try out but haven't run any tube through it.

The "Dake" cold saw does wonders when doing the chop saw style notch, but I often get working too fast and mess it up when I move to the second cut.

As for cutting wheels, a friend of mine lost all the muscle in his lower right arm when a cheap cutting wheel exploded on a grinder. Ever since then I have been scared to death of a cutting wheel on a grinder, but I will try the die grinder idea it sounds pretty cool.

[ZJim]

Maybe my chop saw just sucks, because it took me FOREVER to cut through some 2x2 1/4" wall square steel when I was building my rockers. I loved how smooth and accurate the angles and cuts were, but it took so long I eventually just brought out my angle grinder and sawzall which was at least twice as fast.

[Ian from Xtreme]

Hey Zjim,

Check the blade nut, and make sure it is "super" tight. I had a saw that did than when you turned it to cut a mitre the nut would loosn up just enough so the blade was not spinning at full speed. Took me forever to cut stuff, and it kept tripping the breaker!!

[DRM]

I ended up pirating the tube clamp assembly from my HF notcher, and mounted it to the workplate of my cheap $50 HF-style drill press. I use a bolt through teh clamp assembly, and some vice grips for adjustability.

Sounds hokey - but I can do offset notches, and any angle combination you can think of by moving the clamp assembly around, or rotating the workplate assembly.

Aside from crappy cutting from cheap hole saw blades, works pretty well :)

[Ollyota]

Aside from crappy cutting from cheap hole saw blades, works pretty well :)
one of the machinists i work with reshapes the teeth on holesaws to use less rake, which helps cutting steel. i think he actually tried a negative rake too, which the machinery's handbook suggests for interupted cuts.
either way, it looks like the sketch below, the saws last forever, don't catch, and actually cut faster than brand new holesaw's.

he just spins the holesaw on the arbor against the grinder to take the tips off of the teeth and level them, and goes back in with a dremel tool or die grinder and cuts the right rake and relief. it takes some time, but i was really impressed with how well these worked compared to regular hole saws.

mike

http://img187.exs.cx/img187/1362/toothrake9vm.jpg

[mudhound72]

After doing some indepth reading on notching. What is the best way to fig out a notch wheen it meats in a corner with two other bars. eg a roof cross brace.

Just wondering cause I have yet to read anything on this yet

[BrettM]

After doing some indepth reading on notching. What is the best way to fig out a notch wheen it meats in a corner with two other bars. eg a roof cross brace.

Just wondering cause I have yet to read anything on this yet
for anything complex, like those 7 tube nodes you see in rally cars:

http://www.pipemastertools.com/images/pipemaster_group.jpg

[4stairmontero]

I know I'm late with this, but when I did my cage w/2" tubing, I used my jig saw. It's a nice Bosch barrel handle saw with a short metal cutting blade. I was able to zip right through all my cuts in no time and had almost zero cleanup to do. I freehanded the first one, then adjusted it to fit with the grinder. Made a template out of heavy paper, and had the rest of 'em done super quick and clean. On smaller tube, it would be tougher, but totally do-able.

I too now understand the chopsaw method after seeing the drawings. For some reason I was trying to envision the opposite. Using the saw to cut V-notch into the end of a tube. :confused:

[jdjanda]

If you are going to use the HF POS (as I do) you've got to work with the limitations. I mounted it to my compressor/drill press bench. I ran two bolts through the base, and one through the top. Works great with the extra support, just completed about 20 notches for my new trailer fenders. The extra support at the top prevents it from twisting when the saw binds.

[jerseyzuks]

I too now understand the chopsaw method after seeing the drawings. For some reason I was trying to envision the opposite. Using the saw to cut V-notch into the end of a tube. :confused:


Glad to see that I wasn't the only one who pictured it backwards! Pics definitley helped on understanding that one.

[generalee7]

I've got the HF notcher and it works great. Basically I just removed the bottom piece of it and clamped the other part into a vice then threw the 1/2" drill on the end. So basically you are holding the drill horizontally like you were drilling straight into something. Works good, cuts fast and can go as slow as you need, just don't buy cheap holesaws! Miluakee (that's probably wrong) hole saws work great :flipoff2:

[Ed ke6bnl]

Plasma cut the line thats clean and fast Ed

[foley]

please note: i AM NOT reffering to an angle grinder. I am refering to a DIE GRINDER, http://www.lukesmachinery.com/media/Makita-906-Die-Grinder-1.jpg

equiped with a 2" cutoff wheel.

Works kick ass. same theory as a chop saw but much more accurate. You can clmp your tube into the vice, at tabeltop, working height, and follow your cope lines. 2 seconds with the angle grinder to smooth the corners. done.


You must have a much better die grinder than I do... I pretty much only use mine for cutting tubes that I've been overzealous when tacking in place and want to move.

I stand by my argument I've made for years... until there's a commonly available 24tpi hole saw to use in a notcher, you'll never beat the versatility and efficiency of a chop saw and angle grinder / bench grinder.