Curious to know if anybody knows of a throttle body similar to the one in this picture ? Would it be aftermarket or off a late model vehicle? What vehicle with a 4.0-4.2 liter use TBs like this?

http://www.cliffordperformance.com/images/injection_640.jpg

The intake and elboe are clifford products . This particular set up is for a 4.0 litre engine . I heard their system when available be $2500-$3000:eek: :eek:

I think it could be done for much less and want to find a similar throttle body. I am collecting parts to try port injection on a 2F.

Why not just take the throttle body, computer, sensors, etc off of a 4.3 liter V6? (Chevy Astro, Blazer?) I've seen it, downey makes a kit, and its prooven. Plus, with the OE smog stuff removed, just having the throttle body, computer, HEI, etc makes it cleaner than it came from the factory. :eek:

Of course, if you want tuned port, good luck :D

-MAx

Drilling the intake manifold for injector bungs is not really hard but it will be expensive to have the injector rail custom made. you best bet for a throttle body is a stock mustang unit.
One issue that is hard to overcome is that fact that there are two cylinders per intake runner on the 2F. So you would have to run three BIG injectors instead of six little ones. Again not impossible but not easy. If you want to talk about this more please do not hesitate to PM me :D

I would guess that intake is for the Jeep 258 I6 or the Chevy I6.

Originally posted by Jason M
Drilling the intake manifold for injector bungs is not really hard but it will be expensive to have the injector rail custom made. you best bet for a throttle body is a stock mustang unit.


Jason,

Injector rail is pretty straight forward, depends on the injectors you use. Ford 19# (mustang 5.0) are a good bet, price is good.

Trick is an alignment tool to get the bungs in the correct place, tool is this used to insure the injectors correctly located in the fuel rail.
:D

Problem in using THREE big injectors, rather than six injectors, is the timing of the clyinder pairs 1,2 & 5,6 will
cause a gross rich/lean condition. Only 3,4 (both 180 degrees out from each other) will run correctly. Solution is a custom manifold with longer runners. (for batch injection), or a more expensive sequenced port injection to fire those injectors correctly.

Tom :usa:

I am looking at fuel injecting my 2F eventually also, I was led to believe that unless you are turning 5K rpm or better that TPI had very little if any advantage over TBI ( and we all know the 2F and
5000+ rpm don't mix) Reason was that O2 sensor regulates both to a 14.7:1 air/fuel mixture regardless. Any ideas?

You may have a point there about TBI being as good as MPI. One of the reasons I wanted to attempt this was that I measure the exhaust temperatures on a carb setup with a thermal temp gun. I found a incredible difference in the heat range coming from each exhaust port, as much as 300-400 degrees . The 3 and 4 exhuast ports were so much hotter than the 1,2 and 5,6 exhaust ports. I think the shorter intake ports were burning a richer amount of fuel .I thought that perhaps individual port injection would solve that. In my haste I did not even think about the 02 sensor......... still.... maybe I would be getting a cleaner burn than carb or tbi with the MPI. The TBI would be somewhat better than carb but you would still have the huge temp differences . :confused: I'm new at this so bear with me. Let me know what you think?
Wouldn't MPI give a more accurate signal at the 02?


PS .....I measured those temps on a 2F witha stock tuned aisin carb and a header@ 2200RPM.

Originally posted by bennett
Curious to know if anybody knows of a throttle body similar to the one in this picture ? Would it be aftermarket or off a late model vehicle? What vehicle with a 4.0-4.2 liter use TBs like this?

http://www.cliffordperformance.com/images/injection_640.jpg



The throttle body looks like a factory GM off of any TPI motor, probably a speed density system from mid-late 80's. But that is my best guess.

HTH

Originally posted by '62FJ40
I am looking at fuel injecting my 2F eventually also, I was led to believe that unless you are turning 5K rpm or better that TPI had very little if any advantage over TBI ( and we all know the 2F and
5000+ rpm don't mix) Reason was that O2 sensor regulates both to a 14.7:1 air/fuel mixture regardless. Any ideas?

I Disagree. :eek: TPI is much better at lower rpm. Carbs & TBI will wet the manifold walls. No biggy at steady state speeds, but when you change throttle position that fuel is either dumped on the manifold walls (let off) or sucked in (WOT). The amount of fuel PER CYLINDER will vary quite a bit. The slow responding O2 sender will give you an average of all cylinders. You can have three lean, three rich, yet read a nice "perfect" reading. Heating the intake manifold does help with a carb or TBI, not needed with TPI.

Their is no magic to Fuel Injection. A well setup carb, manifold, ports, etc will perform just the same as a good TBI. Of course with TBI we have a better range of adjustments, then a carb's idle, transition, full.

TPI has the advantage of not messing with the wetting effect of the intake manfiold walls. With an injector per cylinder, there is a better chance of getting the right amount of fuel to the cylinder. Of course the amount of air flowing into each cylinder may not be the same! WIth TPI you don't need to heat the manifold, so it does allow for cooler (dense) to reach each cylinder.

Of course if you have a worn carb that can not mete fuel with beans, a nice TBI set will be an improvement. I've seen quite a few folks "rip all the smog stuff off" on the later 2F's without paying attention to the carb will seem to run richer (allows the air injection to burn more in the manifold), and without EGR the distributor is way to advanced for most part throttle cruising Everyone blames a "bad carb" yet, the carb is working fine. :(

Between TBI and TPI, if you have a limited budget and do lots of junk yard hunting, a nice GM TBI system is cost effective. You can get aftermarket programmers to change the engine parameters and have a pretty reasonable set up. Then again keeping your rig stock, and buying a non-USA carb from spector is a good option.

If you can afford to have the intake manifold modified, and spend a little more initially, TPI starts looking better. With decent tuning and a custom manifold, it would interesting to see what sort of torque improvements we could get out of the 2F!

Hmm, you know we could make one heck of an article for Toyota Trails! I still have a TBI off a Jeep sitting in my garage (it is a near bolt on, but we ripped it off a friends I6 in favor of the TPI). Dodge Dakota TBI got toasted.

Still take a stock 2F. Swap to TBI, tune, and dyno it. Ditto with TPI with three different manifolds. Ahem, this would run around $5000, not including labor to "test out". No playing with ignition timing from initial settings, either (good way to fudge numbers, often done by aftermarket tuners!).

Sorry, too long winded, too much french roast this morning.

Tom :usa:

Tom,and others..............
Here is a good FAQ site that might keep your interest peaked.

http://www.sdsefi.com/tech.html

Roundrocktom,
check out the "how to make a fuel rail" and " how to make a intake manifold"..... If you took a 2F alum intake and weld the injector bungs on a predetermined angle and mate the fuel rail. The would be the most difficult part. The rest would be fairly straight-forward.
Guys,, thanks for the input...does anyone else know what throttle body is in the the clifford pic?? Is it mustang?

thanks

bennett

Another easy way to build a fuel rail is to use threaded pipe and elbows in the right offsets for the injector ports and then thread the injector mounts from MSD (P/N 2140) on the ends. The fuel rails work quite well as long as you have a large enough pipe diameter for the fuel flow at a reasonable pressure.
A helpful site for those little things fuel injection related is the www.msdignition.com and click on the "Digital DIS Ignition system" link and it will froward to a bunch of fuel fittings and injector sizing tables you may need, check it out.
And for those who feel somewhat electronically inclined (and can solder) and have a laptop handy, you can build your own fuel computer, try this:

http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html

Can't go wrong as the components are a bout $100 and comes with the software needed.

Fuel rail is easy to make.

On the injector at the top there is a plastic moulding that takes o-rings to seal for a standard fuel rail. Cut the cut plastic off, at the top, leaving the metal and enough room for a small section of fuel injection hose(higher pressure) and small hose clamp.

You need to buy the injector bungs that have the retaining clips on them though.

I recently bought a holley pro-jection kit from JEGS for a CJ-7. It is single-barrel 300cfm, and it works great with the landcruiser motor. I don't think there is much advantage to an MPI over a TBI, unless you are searching for every bit of horsepower, and if you want power that badly, just put in a V-8. I got everything i needed for just under $1000. So that was a big factor, too.

Good Luck

When I was running my F eng there were smog tubes in the heads. I think there is one per cylinder. If so why not rig it up with the injectors feeding fuel through the smog tube holes in the head. Does'nt the new L/C run mpi sixs if so try and scavage up some used parts off a late model L/C.
I dont need to worry about this problem any more. Now I have a TPI350 and love it. It woops any TBI system any day. With the right cam, all my power is between 900- 4000 RPM's. With the TPI im getting 14-18 mpg 400HP 425 fp of torque. But on a 2F eng I think I would go with a TBI only cause there simple to deal with.Unless you were able to get a good deal on a late model L/C 80series model eng. Out of a wrecked vehicle now that would be a great conversion.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Arnett
[B]When I was running my F eng there were smog tubes in the heads. I think there is one per cylinder. If so why not rig it up with the injectors feeding fuel through the smog tube holes in the head.

Those holes are for injecting air into the head and after combustion to mix with the exhuast.......they are also going into the exhaust side of the head so it would not work.:)