DOH! Just my luck. Breaker box related.

[Krylon..]

So my neighbor who is an electrician gives me this breaker box filled with breakers. I think sweet, saved me some cabbage.. But I opened it up and had a question about hooking up the wires since this is a different design than I am used to... So before I posted my question here I started searching the net to see if I could find some info to help me rather than bothering you guys... Well I came across some bad info on the box I got and am wondering if I should even use it?

The box I was given is a Federal Pacific with the Stab-Lok breakers. Found some articles on the net where they are causing fires and such... But the one article I read was more so focused on appliances like stoves then it was on welders, compressors and heaters.....

What do you guys think?

Also, if I do use this box, it has a different style of hook up than I am used to doing. My house box has the breakers doen the center, a ground off to one since and the common off to the other. This Stab-Lok box has the breakers down the center and waht looks to be a two line ground block or common block along the bottom. There is no "3rd" hook up.... :confused:

I can get pics if you like..

Thanks!

[Krylon..]

Link to one of the fire articles:

http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpe.html

And paste:

Federal Pacific Electric Panels: Fires Waiting to Happen, Debate Waiting to Be Ended
Federal Pacific Electric "Stab-Lok" service panels and breakers are dangerous and can fail, leading to electrical fires. The problem is that some 240-Volt FPE circuit breakers and possibly also some 120-Volt units simply may not work. [NOTICE: 11/10/95 A paraphrase of this article was been posted on Internet in 1995]--Dan Friedman

It has been suggested that there are as many as 28 million of these breakers in use in the U.S. which means that in some conditions as many as one million of them may fail to provide proper fire protection.

But where are they? Most homeowners whose houses are served by these panels are unaware of the hazards. So too are some inspectors and contractors. Because most homeowners do not order periodic electrical safety inspections, the presence of these panels is often undiscovered until an inspection made in the course of renovating or selling a property. Our field experience indicates that even when problems occur with this equipment, often it is simply removed or replaced with little publicity. Neither manufacturers nor some electricians are inclined to frighten consumers.

These breakers can fail to trip at an alarming rate. At a modest overload (135% of rating) switches that had never been touched (never mechanically switched) were energized on both poles. These failed 25% of the time, followed by a lockup that meant the switch would never trip in the future at any overload. Once these switches had been flipped on and off (mechanically energized), failures increased to 36%!

Worse, when individual poles on these switches were energized under the same conditions, 51% of the "virgin" switches failed, and for switches that had been mechanically energized, a whopping 65% of them failed!1

When a circuit breaker will not trip in response to an overload there is a serious risk of fire.

Homeowners and renovators who encounter these panels should consider replacing them with new equipment. Panel replacement, can involve significant expense, typically $800 to $1200 depending on service size and other factors.2

But identifying one of these defects can lead to an argument and in some cases, even lawsuits! For example, a knowledgeable inspector or contractor observes one of these panels and recommends replacement. An owner or another inspector, unaware of the background, refuses to cooperate, and insists there is "no problem." Who's right?

There is indeed "a problem." FPE panels and circuit breakers are a "safety-related defect." In some conditions the equipment may not provide the safety protection (against fire) that was intended.

This defect is associated with FPE panels and circuit breakers manufactured in the 1970's and possibly extending to current equipment. Testing was performed in 1982-3 by Wright Malta Corporation for the US Consumer Product Safety Commission.

What actually happens to cause unsafe conditions? Testing performed on FPE 2-pole (240V) circuit breakers indicated that in some overload conditions, particularly when one pole of the breaker is overloaded, the circuit breaker will not trip. Some tests showed that as many as 65% of the circuit breakers would malfunction.

Once this malfunction has occurred the breaker is "locked" and it will not trip under any circumstances, creating an even more serious fire hazard.

Are there real-world instances in which a current overload occurs on just a single "leg" of a 240-Volt circuit? Sure. At least some clothes dryers and electric ranges split the 240-V delivered to the appliance to run individual components such as a dryer drum motor or individual heater elements. Multiwire branch circuits which share a common neutral wire also serve different loads in a building.

Special Notice: Multiwire Branch Circuits - warning: to avoid overheating neutral wire and shock hazards involving multiwire branch circits, it is important to assure that each of the individual circuits is on opposite poles (in the panel) from the other. In most panels this is accomplished, in fact forced, by using a 240-V common-trip-tie breaker (ganged together switches) which forces individual circuits onto opposite poles. However in FPE panels, the panel bus design does not provide this assurance. Ref: "Safe Wiring Practice," Rex Cauldwell, Journal of Light Construction, letter March 1995, p.6.

It is possible that there are similar failures among single-pole (120V) breakers. At least one case of a single-pole 120-Volt FPE GFCI breaker which failed to trip has been reported.3 Furthermore, simply purchasing new circuit breakers of the same type from the same manufacturer may not correct the problem. And only special FPE breakers fit in the FPE "Stab-Lok" electric panel.

When this issue was examined in the early 1980's, FPE's opinion was that the chances of an overload occurring on only a single pole of a 240-volt breaker were very small. In our view there are some very common real-world examples where single-pole loading in a 240-volt breaker might include failures: multi-wire branch circuits and in electric clothes dryers where one of the heating elements shorts to the steel case of the dryer.

The circuit breakers do not directly cause an electrical fire. Some other failure must occur which in turn causes an overload of the circuit "protected" by the FPE breaker. When the breaker fails to trip in response to the overload it has failed to provide the protection intended, and a fire may result. That indirection is why we call this a "latent safety defect."

Why we call this a "latent safety defect" rather than just "hazardous" or "dangerous" needs more explanation. Unfortunately, some people who stand to face big costs grasp at fine distinctions about the failure mechanism in order to avoid facing the problem.

When a defect is itself likely to cause injury directly, such as live wires poking out of the wall by the bathroom sink, we call it a "hazard."

When a defect does not directly cause the injury or loss, such as a circuit breaker which may fail to trip when something else is causing an unsafe overcurrent, we call it a "latent safety defect.

Either way, it's still a problem that needs prompt attention.

Is this a linguistic debate or is it really an issue in the field? You bet it's an issue. Recently during an examination by a Maryland home inspector4,5 an FPE panel, was observed and flagged as a potential hazard which should be remedied. The property owner, concerned about his sale, complained and threatened to sue the inspector.

We were able to provide the inspector with referral to Dr. Jess Aronstein, an engineer in Poughkeepsie, New York, who in turn provided supporting documentation: reports on this problem, a bibliography, and a press release from FPE.

In another example of the dangers of this "latent safety defect," Dr. Aronstein reported that during a disturbance in a jail, a guard hit a gang-switch in an FPE "Stab-Lok" load center in the cell block area. The breaker did not trip. Rather, it shorted to ground in the switch, blowing a hole in the cover plate.6,7

Building inspectors and renovators often face the discovery of a product which is potentially harmful, which should be replaced, but for which there is little public documentation to justify their position.

Disagreement among people affected by this issue means that it's necessary to be able to cite actual research.

Reports on FPE Equipment Defects
The following reports on defects (non trip and burning) of FPE Stab-Lock Circuit Breakers8 were obtained from Consumer Product Safety Commission by request, under the Freedom of Information Act:
"Status Report - Evaluation of Residential Molded Case Circuit Breakers", Wright-Malta Corp., (For U.S. Consumer product Safety Commission, Project# CPSC-C-81-1455), August 10, 1982 (Contains analysis of mechanism of failure of FPE two-pole Stab-Lock breakers.)
"Failure Analysis of Residential Circuit Breaker Panel", Wright-Malta Corp., (For U.S. Consumer product Safety Commission, Project #CPSC-C-81-1455), May 20, 1982 (Contains failure analysis of FPE Stab-Lock panel that ignited due to failure of buss-bar interconnections in the backside of the panel.)
"Phase II Report, Evaluation of Residential Molded Case Circuit Breakers", Wright-Malta Corp., (For U.S. Consumer product Safety Commission, Project# CPSC-C-81-1455), March 10, 1984 (Contains experimental analysis of materials, construction, and performance of molded case circuit breakers, including FPE. Lack of corrosion resistance of certain internal parts is considered to be a factor in the failure of the circuit breakers.)"Final Report: Calibration and Condition Tests of Molded Case Circuit Breakers," Wright-Malta Corp., (For U.S. Consumer product Safety Commission, Project #CPSC-C-81-1429), December 30, 1982 (Extensive calibration and functional testing of FPE breakers. Substantial percent failures to trip on overload).
Building professionals who have questions about this equipment, particularly in cases of suspected failure of the equipment are invited to contact the author.

Dan Friedman is a building consultant in Poughkeepsie, NY. He served as chairman of both the Education Committee and the national Technical Committee of the American Society of Home Inspectors. Contact information is at his website.

References and Commentary:
Report by JA to DJF excerpting from the report material referenced at the end of this article.
Additional information is available through the Consumer Product Safety Commission or the American Society of Home Inspectors.
by J. Aronstein. Personal communication, J. Aronstein to DJ Friedman, 9/20/93.
John Paardecamp, US Home Inspection Corp. in MD,
9/30/93 Personal Communication DJF w/JA
Contact Ed Kraewic, at CPSC, who may know more about the single-pole units.
Historical note, not for publication [deleted from on line version]
References cited ja-df 3/28/94 filed FPEPANL.TXT - ELECTRIC.0SG. This information regarding Federal Pacific Electric service panels and circuit breakers was provided to Dan Friedman by Dr. Jess Aronstein, BME, MSME, PhD, NYS P.E. Lic. No. 39860 Dr. Aronstein is a consulting engineer specializing in mechanical and materials engineering.
Or Dr. Jess Aronstein as well as the U.S. CPSC.
Reported by private conversation with Bill Mills, Residential Engineering Systems, 8/4/95 (203-528-3672) on a narrow series of FPE Panels there was also a neutral-bus overheating problem - used steel screws on aluminum bus. Probably ok if no sign of overheating. Aronstein has details.
More Information
Federal Pacific Electric Panels - a Summary of the Issues
Schneider Canada Federal Pioneer circuit breaker recall
Reliance Electric Co. Press Release: improper practices used to obtain UL Listing for most of FPE's circuit breakers and notes testing which indicates "possible defects." 1980, Reliance Electric Co.
Home Inspection Reporting Language and discussion for FPE panels
Federal Pacific Electric Panel - CPSC press release
The Home Inspection & Construction Diagnosis Website
Email the Author: dfriedman@inspect-ny.com

[Johann]

This would be the deal breaker for me

[article]"These breakers can fail to trip at an alarming rate. At a modest overload (135% of rating) switches that had never been touched (never mechanically switched) were energized on both poles. These failed 25% of the time, followed by a lockup that meant the switch would never trip in the future at any overload. Once these switches had been flipped on and off (mechanically energized), failures increased to 36%!

Worse, when individual poles on these switches were energized under the same conditions, 51% of the "virgin" switches failed, and for switches that had been mechanically energized, a whopping 65% of them failed!1

When a circuit breaker will not trip in response to an overload there is a serious risk of fire. "[article]



The shop is a place where you are likely to overload a circuit. I've popped circuits just using a large fan on the same circuit as my air comp.

My 200 amp panel was $119 at Home depot. Alot cheaper than replacing everything in your garage when it burns down.

[Krylon..]

My 200 amp panel was $119 at Home depot. Alot cheaper than replacing everything in your garage when it burns down.

Very true!! Off to Lowes tonight to check out panels and breakers!

[randii]

No pics required... my folks' neighbor in Michigan had a small housefire on account of a Stab-Lok. Mercifully, their service entrance ran close enough to their water line that the PVC melted and burst, limiting their fire damage (but swamping their basement).

Your neighbor the electrician must not like you very much, man... anyone in that trade knows about FP Shit-Loks. Get a good panel new -- they aren't that expensive. Plan ahead, and price the breakers you're going to use -- when I subbed my shop service, the cumulative price of all the breakers (some of which are pretty large) was more than the load center itself, and the breakers varied dramatically in price by brand.

Randii

[Gummi Bear]

FPE panels are notorious for bizarre behaviour. The connection between the breaker and the busbar is poor at best (read- loose) and the trip mechanism is weak. It will either freeze shut (not tripped) or burn closed (welded in an 'on' position, regardless of handle position)

Toss it in the garbage, and pick up a more modern design.

FPE was pretty cutting edge in the 40's when they introduced these panels, and they really gained momentum in the 50's, and maintained that popularity up into the 70's. They were the first to offer an alternative to the edison fuse box (the ones that look like the base of a lightbulb)

There's lots of weirdo residential designs out there. Sylvania/Zinsco made some pretty bizarre stuff too. Like FPE, they were innovative at the time, but by todays standards, they are half assed performers at best. There were some others that you'll probably never come across. But my favorite design of all time is the Bulldog panel. They're too cool for words, push button breakers that bolt to the busbar. Freakin brilliant.

If you're planning on staying in that place for a while, go ahead and pony up for a decent panel, Square D QO series is very well supported, and of an excellent quality. Cutler Hammer CH series is good also. GE and Siemens make good stuff, but not until you get up into their commercial grade bolt on panels.

[Krylon..]

Thanks Randii, Gummi and johann..

I'll be headin to Lowes after work and look for a QO Square D or a CH Cutler. :)

[Bondage]

Little hijack here. Just went to look at my panel...Sure enough FPE Stab(shit) lock panel, 200 amp. This was installed in 87. Is there a test to insure functionality, or should I pony up for 36 f'n new breakers?

[Krylon..]

Little hijack here. Just went to look at my panel...Sure enough FPE Stab(shit) lock panel, 200 amp. This was installed in 87. Is there a test to insure functionality, or should I pony up for 36 f'n new breakers?

Do a search on Google for "Stab Lok". There was an article int here somewhere about some type of testing for them. But they do sell "new style" breakers that you can replace your older Stab Lok breakers with.. :D

[Krylon..]

Well maybe I was wrong on the above link. Here is the article I was thinking of:
http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpestlouis.htm#CPSCTest

But it looks to be more about what results they had with testing and not testing your own. Maybe one of the other guys can help you with testing. :)

[Gummi Bear]

The new series of Stab Lok breakers still isn't worth a shit. I forget now who bought them up (Siemens, I think) and made some minor revisions, then sells them for a re-goddamn-diculous price ($30 for a 1p 20A)

Bondage - That's your call. If it was installed in 87, it probably sat on someones shelf for years before that install. If it's giving you problems (nuisance tripping, overheating, etc) go ahead and replace. If it's not giving you any problems, don't mess with it until you have to, unless you can afford it and just want to.

Have an electrician come over and inspect it. Check for breaker tightness, set screws tight, and condition of busbars. If it shows any sign of heating, replace it as soon as possible. Some homeowners insurance companies will pony up to replace a burnt up panel, or one that is questionable. Any breakers that you add to it are going to be expensive, so keep that in mind when you look into making any electrical upgrades to your property.

A panel change is a pretty big operation, figure at least one day of being down. More if you need to make improvements to bring your system up to code. If you have a simple outdoor mounted panel, you can do it much more quickly, and the experience of the electrician doing the work makes all the difference in the world in how smoothly and quickly it goes.

[Bondage]

First thanks for the quick and detailed responses. Interesting that this stuff is POS, was it considered chit back in 87? The reason I ask is we bought this house from an OCD Architect who built and lived here till last year, just about everything in this place is overbuilt. 36 circuits on a 200 amp service seems like alot. 1 going to the 60 amp sub in the garage. All wiring appears to be 12/2 rather than 14/2

[u2slow]

Little hijack here. Just went to look at my panel...Sure enough FPE Stab(shit) lock panel, 200 amp. This was installed in 87. Is there a test to insure functionality, or should I pony up for 36 f'n new breakers?

FPE stab-lok panels are still current in Canada. I was installing them on new highrise construction this year! The price must be good... probably the most common panel brand for new construction - unless the engineer or builder have something else spec'ed.

They aren't my favorite by any means - I dislike small contact area on the busbar and they don't feel like they have 'positive' engagement. My own FPE panel (mid 70's 100A) has some nasty burn marks and two spots that won't accept breakers. :rolleyes:

All the new breakers are white. If you have old black ones, you will want o investigate how old they actually are... they may have been re-used from the previous panel :eek:

[Bondage]

They have white bodies with black switches. Since you haven't changed your's out I think I'll leave mine alone. BTW no burn marks that I can see. Took the cover off.
Thanks

[Gummi Bear]

FPE stab-lok panels are still current in Canada. I was installing them on new highrise construction this year! The price must be good... probably the most common panel brand for new construction - unless the engineer or builder have something else spec'ed.

They aren't my favorite by any means - I dislike small contact area on the busbar and they don't feel like they have 'positive' engagement. My own FPE panel (mid 70's 100A) has some nasty burn marks and two spots that won't accept breakers. :rolleyes:

All the new breakers are white. If you have old black ones, you will want o investigate how old they actually are... they may have been re-used from the previous panel :eek:

Do you have any new information on them? They are pretty much banned here in Texas. I think they even lost their UL rating (I'll have to check on that though)

I'd be curious to see if they've updated their design or not. The breakers that I see around here that are new production, are black like the original style, and only occasionally the gray colored ones show up as new items.

[Krylon..]

Well I broke down Sunday and went to Home Depot. They had a Square D QO Series 100A panel with (5) 20A single pole breakers and a 100A main breaker for $120. They did have the home series in the same configuration for about $60, but went with the QO per Gummi recomendation. :D
Hopefully I will get around to installing it in the garage tonight.

[u2slow]

Do you have any new information on them?

http://www.schneider-electric.ca/www/en/products/stab-lok/index.htm

[Gummi Bear]

Interesting read, thanks u2.

It appears as though FPE is now Federal Pioneer Electric, only available in Canada, and it was Square D who bought them up. Used to be Federal Pacific Electric.

I didn't find any information on the Federal Pioneer site about the testing standards that they are held up to.

I did find that the Square D stuff (also available in Canada) is indeed UL approved. There are other independent testing agencies, the UL is just the most widely recognized.

http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Circuit%20Protection/Miniature%20Circuit%20Breakers/0730CT9801.pdf

Just in case anyone is interested in Square D, QO series breakers, and what makes them work. (keep in mind that voltages and ratings are slightly different in Canada)

I was intrigued in the Federal Pioneer fuse box replacement applications. I've never seen anything like that. Pretty clever, but a rather limited market I'd think.
http://www.schneider-electric.ca/www/ecat/documents/b_section.pdf

Krylon, I think that you'll like that QO panel. They're pretty user friendly, and parts are affordable and easy to get.

[u2slow]

Krylon, I think that you'll like that QO panel.

x2

I normally see QO in industrial/commercial settings. If its in a house, its usually indicative of a higher quality installation. I have a 200A main and 100A sub going into my house shortly ;)

[Krylon..]

Krylon, I think that you'll like that QO panel. They're pretty user friendly, and parts are affordable and easy to get.

Even just by comparing the QO to the HOM series on the display, you could tell there was a diffence in the parts. Thanks for the advice! I was a bit dissapointed though cause they didn't have any Cutler Hammer boxes. They had a large assortment of breakers, but no panel. :(

But it looks like I wont get to install it until maybe next monday as I am getting ready for an NYC trip. :)