I want to convert to EFI and wondering if anyone has used any other setup than a factory TBI or TPI setup. I have a factory TBI, but I was looking to use either the holley pro-jection EFI part # hly-502-20s or the holley commander TBI setup. Any help would be great.

There was a good discussion in the General 4x4 section about Holley Projection last week. Lots of good info

Might want to check with AZBlazer- He's running the Howell setup.

I've spent some time working with the Speed-Pro (now F.A.S.T. Electronics) DFI system. If you're interested in some info, just let me know.

From what I have gathered - almost no one is happy with their Holley Pro-jection. Your best bet would be either getting a complete TBI or TPI unit at a junk yard - or get a Howell setup. A couple of guys in my club are running the Howell and swear by it. This will probably be the route I go when I can scrape enough $$ together for fuel injection. My $.02

Well the reason I want to do an aftermarket setup is because eventually the Jimmy will get a pontiac motor. And since there is not EFI kits for pontiacs I figures I would try one of these. I was looking more to go with the holley commander 950 series.

Save yourself a lot of headaches. Go talk to Chuck at Chuck's Speed & RV. He is a super nice guy. Really knows his shit about every type of Injection made. I had the Pro-jection. gave up on it. Chuck made me up a multi port and has as been perfect for 2 years.
Except for dirty fuel taking out a fuel pump and an injector. All because I ran the wrong fuel filter.

pic of my injection (http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/azredjeep/vwp?.dir=/Chuck%27s+Dyno&.dnm=reverse+whoopty+engine.jpg&.src=ph&.view=t&.hires=t)

He will take all the time you need, to explain anything to you.

Tell him Blake sent you. (that will keep me on his good side)


Chucks
545 West Mariposa
Phoenix, Arizona 85013
602-266-5101

Originally posted by Desertdueler
Well the reason I want to do an aftermarket setup is because eventually the Jimmy will get a pontiac motor. And since there is not EFI kits for pontiacs I figures I would try one of these. I was looking more to go with the holley commander 950 series.

I'm currently running Holleys MPFI 950 Commander on my BBC 496. I thought I might run into problems like you hear on the older Holley FI systems (projection, 4di) but so far it's been a great FI system. It started up the first time using a 502 setup that came on the floppy disks. I fine tuned it a little and later took it to someone that tweaked it a little more. I do have a surging problem when you first start it (RPM's change 200-300) but quits after a couple of minutes. Holley gave some good pointers on how to fix this but haven't had the time to fix it. So far, Holley has gave great tech support. The 950 Commander supports instant changes with the laptop so a change can be made while on the highway (don't do this alone at 65mph!) It also supports most ignition systems (crank trigger, msd, gm, etc) and can control the timing with our without a knock sensor. It also supports forced induction and nitrous, The PCM is small and easy to find room for. Wiring was easier than I thought and was simple to install. Everything is labeled well. I'm using Edelbrock alum heads with larger valves and a Comp 276 roller cam and it doesn't seem to mind the larger cam. There's more benefits to the 950 systems than the older 4di / projection systems. I didn't use the inline pump that came with the system. I used a Walbro 255lph in tank pump. Another good FI system is Accels DFI (the newest release) and FAST. You can also burn your own chips and use GM parts but this involves a special chip burner and software. To make a change, you have to take the chip out and reprogram it. I was thinking of going this route but wanted a real time laptop interface. Howell also does a chip with the GM computer so if you need to make a change to your engine, they have to send you another chip. I've heard many complaints on the older Projection and 4di systems but I haven't heard a single complaint with the 950 Commander systems.

pic of my engine here:
http://www.off-road.com/chevy/tech/454engine/engine6.jpg

Well thats good to hear on the commander 950. That looks to be my only choice for a pontiac motor since I cant use a chevy dist. and the dist. spins opposite of a chevy so thats why the factory TBIs dont work.

Originally posted by Desertdueler
Well thats good to hear on the commander 950. That looks to be my only choice for a pontiac motor since I cant use a chevy dist. and the dist. spins opposite of a chevy so thats why the factory TBIs dont work.

I am one of those people that had the Holley Projection and it was a real piece of sh*t . The year I had it the Eprom took a dump on me twice and I could not trust it anymore. So I have since removed it from my truck and I a trying to get Holley to get me the Commander computer. I was told that the Commander computer was designed by another guy and not the same one that made the proinjection one. The Commander computer uses a Motorola chips just like OEM fuel injection systems. I would say you are a lot safer running the Commander system.

I've had Pro-jection for the last couple years and just tossed it in favour of a Howell Harness and GM computer. Can't tell you how I like it yet as I just got it a couple days ago and haven't finished installing it, but the harness looks very well made.

the comander sys isnt bad, howel makes good stuff, i like the accell dfi , but i have been impressed the most by the electramotive setups.. esp the tec 3 it is simple, and realy flexable.. hell they can even set it up for two strokes! a basic setup runs you around 1500 they can even set it up to run your current tbi! oh and as farr as coolness factor.. nothing screems power like distributerless ignition! check into it.. you'll be glad you did. i used to work for Jeg's, i had my choice of just about every thing, and used just about every thing. i will stick with the tec 3 from electramotive.
electramotive (http://electromotive-inc.com/)

Some might find this interesting..........

Electromotive TEC3 ECU Specifications
à Includes TEC3 6/12 ECU Specifications

Outputs

Fuel Injector Drivers
o 8 x 4.4/1.1amp peak-and-hold injector drivers
à 6 drivers with TEC3 6/12
o Up to 16 low or high impedance injectors can be driven
à Up to 12 injectors with TEC3 6/12
o Low impedance injectors: 2 per driver (1 - 2.6W per driver)
o High impedance injectors: 1 or 2 per driver (greater than 6W per driver)
o TBI injectors: 1 per driver (1 - 1.6W per driver)
Coil Outputs
o 4 x 9amp direct-fire coil drivers
à 6 drivers with TEC3 6/12
o Feedback charging loop for ideal cylinder-to-cylinder consistency
o No “ignition modules” or “CD” boxes needed
Idle Air Control (IAC) Motor
o Provides control of 4-wire stepper motor IAC’s
o Adjustable idle speed increase for cold starts
o Adjusts idle speed in response to engine load (i.e. A/C activation)
General Purpose Outputs (GPO’s)
o 4 channel low-amp pull-to-ground outputs
o Channels 1 & 2 have pulse-width capability
o Channels 1-4: on/off activation for fan relays, torque converters, waste gates, etc.
o 4 amps max total current draw for GPO1-4 (1 amp per channel if all four are used)
Spare Output
o On/off capability
o 1 amp max current draw
Fuel Pump Control
o Low current pull-to-ground output for activation of fuel pump relay
o Configurable for fuel system priming
Tachometer Output
o Drives modern 0-12 volt tachometers
o Amplifier available for high voltage triggered tachometers
Check Engine Light Output
o Multi-code diagnostic tool for sensor failures
o Pull-to-ground output for small instrument panel light (1 amp max current draw)
ECU Diagnostic LED
o Warns of crank trigger problems
o Multi-code diagnostics
ECU Cooling Fan
o Turns on with unit
o Allows for sustained ultra-high rpm operation w/ low impedance injectors
Inputs

General Purpose Inputs (GPI’s)
o Channels 1-4 are 0-5 Volt analog inputs
o Channels 3 & 4 may also be used for speed inputs (magnetic, optical, and hall effect sensors are supported)
o Provides fuel and ignition trims, datalog enable, valet switch, NOS retard, and more
Engine Sensor Inputs
o Crank Sensor
· 2-wire magnetic sensor (compatible w/ some OEM’s)
· Uses Electromotive-spec 60(-2) tooth crank trigger
· Ultra-high resolution engine position input
o Cam Sensor
· Necessary for full-sequential applications
· Once-per-cam-revolution pulse
o Manifold Air Pressure (MAP) Sensor
· 1 Bar: 0-104kPa absolute
30”Hg – 0”Hg (naturally aspirated)
· 2 Bar: 0-206kPa absolute (up to 1 Bar Boost)
30”Hg – 15psi (up to 15 psi Boost)
· 3 Bar: 0-313kPa absolute (up to 2 Bar Boost)
30”Hg – 30psi (up to 30psi Boost)
o Throttle Position Sensor (TPS)
· Uses throttle shaft-mounted rotary potentiometer
· Compatible with most OEM 3-wire setups
o Coolant Temperature Sensor (CLT)
· Uses NTC thermistor coolant sensor (2-wire)
o Manifold Air Temperature Sensor (MAT)
· Uses NTC thermistor manifold temperature sensor (2-wire)
o Knock Sensor (KNK)
· Provides ability to detect pre-ignition
· Compatible with piezo-style knock sensors (1-wire)
o Oxygen Sensor (EGO)
· Compatible with 1-, 3-, and 4-wire oxygen sensors


Patented Coil Control

Angle Based Timing Control
o Ultra-high resolution triggering
o Engine position known to within 1/8o
o Patented under US Patent RE 34,183
Feedback Charging Control
o Monitors each coil firing event
o Coil current monitoring
· Consistent dwell adjustment
· Full coil charging without overcharging
Tuning Features

Ignition Timing Map
o From 8 x 8 to 16 x 16 user definable tables of RPM vs. MAP for ignition advance angle
o 256-point interpolation between data points
o 1o adjustment increments
o +/-1/4o spark timing accuracy, worst case
Fuel Map
o Two numbers define slope of fuel curve
o From 8 x 8 to 16 x 16 tables of RPM vs. MAP for volumetric efficiency corrections
o 256-point interpolation between data points
o 1% adjustment increments (up to 0.001millisecond resolution)
Load Sensing
o MAP sensor based
o TPS & MAP based (using ‘TPS/MAP Blend’ feature)
Rev Limiters
o Progressive “soft” rev limiter (3 stages)
o Fuel injector cutoff
o 1000-20000rpm capability for primary rev limiter
o 1500-12000rpm capability for auxiliary rev limiter
On-Fly Tuning
o Glitch-free, real-time tuning while engine is running
o Full control of all fuel, ignition, and input/output parameters
Compensation Features
o Fuel
· Individual cylinder fuel trims
· Oxygen sensor closed loop corrections
· Starting (cranking) enrichments
· Cold start / cold weather enrichments
· Accelerator pump enrichments
· Deceleration fuel cutoff
· Battery voltage correction for injector pulsewidths
o Ignition
· Coolant temperature-based advance adjustments
· Manifold air temperature-based advance adjustments
· Smooth idle advance control (integrated w/ IAC settings)
· Paired-cylinder timing trims (each coil has timing trim)
· Individual-cylinder timing trims for full-sequential setups
· Ignition timing offsets for odd-fire applications
· RPM-based timing split for rotary application






Supported Engine Management Configurations

20,000rpm capability for all engines

4-Stroke
o 1-, 2-, 3-, 4-, 6-, and 8-cylinder even-fire engines
à 12-cylinder even-fire engines with TEC3 6/12
o 2 and 4-cylinder odd-fire engines
à 6-cylinder odd-fire engines with TEC3 6/12
o 2- and 4-cylinder dual-plug engines
à 6-cylinder dual-plug engines with TEC3 6/12
o Full sequential fuel injection on all even-fire applications
o Phase-sequential and TBI injection on all applications
o Staged injection available for most setups
o Waste-spark ignition control for all applications
2-Stroke
o 1-, 2-, 3-, and 4-cylinder engines
à 6-cylinder engines with TEC3 6/12
o Full sequential fuel injection or TBI
o Staged injection available for all setups
o Coil-per-plug for all applications
Rotary
o 1- and 2-rotor engines
à 3-rotor engines with TEC3 6/12
o Full sequential fuel injection w/ staged injection or TBI
o Coil-per-plug for all applications



Datalogging Features

On-Board Datalogging (No Laptop Required)
o 1 Mb of available memory
o Activated by switch to +5 Volts on GPI channel
o Can be activated by engine speed.
o Sampling rate is adjustable from 5-100 samples-per-second
o Total datalogging time is dependent on sampling rate
· 100 samples-per-second: 44 seconds of data
· 5 samples-per-second: 15 minutes of data
Laptop Datalogging
o Records to hard drive on laptop
o Sampling rate is approximately 25 samples-per-second
o Total datalogging time is dependent only on hard drive space





Physical Dimensions

Length: 5.65” plus 0.65” for connectors (14.35 cm + 1.65 cm)
Width: 6.40” (16.26 cm)
Height: 1.67” (4.24 cm)
Weight: 1.8 lbs (.82 kg)
Bolt Hole Pattern: 3.50” x 6.03” (use ¼” or 6mm fasteners)


Environmental Considerations

Two Sealed 23-Pin AMP Connectors for Inputs & Outputs

Sealed High-Amperage Delphi Main Power Connector

Sealed Printed Circuit Board


PC Requirements

Computer
o IBM-Compatible PC
o Pentium-1 233 or better
o 800 x 600 monitor
o 64 Mb of ram
o 10 MB of free hard drive space

Data Drives
o CD-ROM for software installation
o 3.5” floppy by request

Communications
o RS-232 9- or 25-pin D connector
o COM 1-4 (software selectable)






Electromotive Patent Information

1. 4,494,509: High resolution electronic ignition control system: January 22, 1985
2. 4,649,881: Precision distributorless ignition control system for internal combustion engines:
March 17, 1987
3. 4,787,354: Ignition control system for internal combustion engines with simplified crankshaft sensing and improved coil charging: November 29, 1988
4. RE34,183: Ignition control system for internal combustion engines with simplified crankshaft sensing and improved coil charging: February 23, 1993

Just because your dist is "different" doesn't mean that it won't work with a GM efi setup. Any dist can/will work. What kind of engine do you have? Is there a distributor that will fit that engine that was used with EFI (port or TBI)??

I suggest you call a place like force-efi.com or howell-efi.com or steet and performance to get some more info before you make up your mind.

Squash

Its a true Pontiac motor. THey stopped making them in 79, so none had EFI or even a 7 pin dist. That and the pontiac dist. spins backwards.