THIS IS BEYOND IMPORTANT


thast right, the time has come to pacK EVERYTING HOME on your trip throught the CON, EVEN YOUR POOP!!


THE AMOUNT OF HUMAN WASTE IS THREATING TO CLOSE THE TRAIL..

this summer we will be testing a "RUBICAN" to see if YOU will use it or not!!!

Let talk about it, right here rigt now... would ya bring your crap home with your or not??????????????




"Rough" Minutes from the 2-2-02 FOTR meeting

This was one of the best, most productive meeting i've ever been too!!! even thought we talked SHIT for 3 hours STRIGHT...!
Permanent brick crapper buildings up there on the con are not gonna happen for atleast a couple years, IF EVER!!.
There are extensive waste removal problems that need to be thought out and addresed in order to recommend a REAL long term solution....IT'S TIME TO FACE REALITY.. THE SHIT PROBLEM IS GONNA GET THE TRAIL CLOSED. THE NUMBERS ARE ASSTOUNDING!!!!!!

WATCH FOR THE FACTS but right NOW

you better SIT DOWN for the NEWS

Literaly

FOTR is poised to recommened that you pack out everything you take into the RUBICON .............even your crap!!!

EVERY MAJOIR 4X4 CLUB IN northern CA. was represented at this meeting and we all agreed, including CAL4WD, PIRATES, FOTR, BLUE RIBBON COALATION, HI LOWS, TREASURE HUNTERS, RCRC, JEEPERS JAMBOREE, EL DORADO COUNTY, US FOREST SERVICE, all THE MAJOR PRIVATE LAND OWNERS WHICH THE CON RUNS THROUGH, anyone who has anything to say about the con was there and agreed its time to do somthin about the TURDS!!

we looked at many solutions including the following:

Vault toilets
Pit toilets
Composting toilets
Leach fields
Pumps and piplines
and the RUBICAN

Pumpin the volts and using heilcopters or unimogs or old fire trucks to pack the crap out would be VERY expensive.
A pumper truck would need to go in there 3 times a week :o and GET THIS ..the crap needs to be transported .....150 MILES AWAY ..... to the Sacramento reginal Waste Treatment Plant...which would easilly be an expensive full time job!!. The other front runner idea would take, i think the number was 70, hellicopter flights just to remove the crap for the highest used few months of the summer, and it would only be a matter of time before they loose a load too, then what??

Yup......several clubs in attendance, including RCRC, volunteered to participate in a pilot program this summer for.......... the RUBICAN........some kind of A porta potty for trail use that ya take YOUR CRAP OUT WITH YA....can you say TREAD LIGHTLY??.

IT'S TIME

TOP

This brings new meaning to sitting on your can.

I have no problem packing my shit out.
I already pick up and carry my dogs shit when he craps on hikes.

Time for a Bumper dumper.:D

I am a sound tech, and i was doing a SMUD meeting for the area within / arround the rubicon. Two gentlmen (attending), both managed a jeepers offroad club. One of the gentlmen (worked of Cal Trans) offered to build a rig, such as a unimog, to wheel upto the con, for extraction of waste from out-house facilities allong the trail, he offered to do it all, build the gacilities, and a rig for waste extraction....
The meeting facilitator basically stated that it was a great idea, but the wrong meeting / topic for the subject at hand. SMUD is planning on ether installing a new hydro plant or was going to overhaul the current one they have up there. the meeting was about 7months ago, so i dont totally recall what was said...

-smart ass

The Idea of a Unimog was disscussed but realley is that pratical ? There is an estimated 75,000lbs of crap up there during a 3 month season. That is about 225 to 250 trips for the unimog.
A helicopter was also mentioned but it would be alot of trips to and would be expensive.
Plus there would have to be facilities to receive the crap somewhere up there , Eldorado County does not want it in there plants.
There are some other Ideas being kicked around , but right now it sounds like porta potties are the way to go to get something in place for this year to help out with the problem.There is a ton of differnt kinds of porta potties out there from Wal-Mart to speacality river rafting stores that cary them.
There should also be a count of people that use the trail I know there was one done last year but I think it needs to be done on a bigger scale. Like at all the entrances to the trail and beyond Spider Lake to see where the bulk of the people are .
At the end here it will probaly be a combination of a couple of differnt methods to get rid of crap.

Just dont roll that 'Mog.... :eek: :nuke:

At my work the field crews get these hi-tech poop bags and a poop'n tent. The bags have some chemical poo-poo voodoo that kills the stanks and gels it into a tidy mass. Sounds gnarly but they work really good. I'll get the name of the vendors today.

BTW...I think alot of this wouldnt be an issue if people at least had the common coutesy to BURY their poop (bring a shovel for god's sake), and burn the paper at night in the fire.

What about the normal "outhouse" with a deep hole in the ground. Never been there so I don't really know if it's possible in the terrain. You could always do what we do when big wall climbing. Take a piece of 4" diameter PVC and cap both ends to carry yo shit with ya.

Better yet heres a business for the enterprising wheeler...get a mog, build a trailer with 3-4 stalls, tow it to the box...two bucks a session :D I know I'd pay it, and if there was EVER a CHICK MAGNET, that rig would be IT!!!!

Ok here is a problem that was brought up by the forest service guy who has had many years of experiance with back woods waste problems


ever hear ......."built it and thay will come" ??

it's a proven fact... if crappers are built the number of people visiting the trail WILL INCREASE dramatically!!!

good or bad,.. just wanted to throw it out there to think about!!

One of the biggest problems is not enought data on how much traffic the rubicon actually sees, Dana Holland has provided "counts" of numbers of people passing the spillway heading in, but the numbers do not identify wethere the wheelers were going all the way through or just to Spyder lake and back out. I also volunteered RCRC to help out with any "counts" in the future, this would include hanging out at the spillway for atleast 24 hrs counting people heading in, and gettin real hard data.
Ideally someone would be at each of the 4 entrances counting so this will probaably take a colaboration of clubs during the heaviest used weekends.

I thank that the leach field would be the cheapest and the most cost efective. If we all pitch in 20-30 bucks it would pay for the material and we could all do the labor. Some one on this sight has to have access to a back hoe and a truck to haul it there. I thank if we pay for the materal it would be a cheep way to end this problem. I will volinteere my time to keep it open.

They want to close it and I havent even been there yet, damn.:smokin:

This is not a solution for Spider Lake, but it seems it would be a SIMPLE solution for Buck Island.... When SMUD built the damn and tunnel at Buck Island, they built an access road from Loon to Buck. It is a smooth 2wd road that any septic truck could traverse. We would just need to have it opened back up for access to the septic trucks. They could be the only ones that have the key to the gate, or something. The road is not in good shape right now, but it could be repaired.

Leach lines are being looked at, problem is ya need a good amount of soil for leach lines, geologically, it will be tuff to find much soil up there, if you've ever tried to pitch a tent up there, your tent stake usually get bent pretty darn quick by the shallow bedrock!!

Composting toilets would be nice too but it's frozen up there 6- 8 months out of the year and the good bugs don't like to work when it's cold.

just crap in a bag & take it home

Originally posted by broncorob
You could always do what we do when big wall climbing. Take a piece of 4" diameter PVC and cap both ends to carry yo shit with ya. Hmm, I like this idea. I have a 5 gallon pooper variety, but damn if you rolled it would be a mess! Yuk :barf: Do you literally sit on it? Ohh imagine if you slipped :eek:. Or does it free stand and you take aim. double :eek:. Inquiring minds wanna know the logistics of this solution.

As far as burying it, there is just too many people up there for that to be a good solution. Could you imagine how soft the ground would be around little sluice. Ewwww! Wouldn't want to be around there during a rain storm.

Thats an interestng fact Lance, and it makes sence, we did talk about SMUDs tunnel but an existing 2wd access rd was not mentioned!

Man, I wish it was that easy, it should be, but with the politics involved..ya know it's gonna be a while

Can everyone say cork?

I think the biggest issue is not the responsible Tread Lightly crowd. It is the occasional weekend wheeler or the crowd that does not give a sheet. My solution is a 5 gallon bucket with trash bags and tight sealing lid. The question should be how to make the people that don't give a sheet care?

Originally posted by Belly Dragger
Do you literally sit on it? Ohh imagine if you slipped :eek:. Or does it free stand and you take aim. double :eek:. Inquiring minds wanna know the logistics of this solution.



Typically big wallers use good newspaper, the shinny sunday adds are pretty good, basically ya crap on the paper roll it up stick it in the pvc and cap it, and carry it out.


Could you imagine being a climber in the old days, workng your ways up the boulders and get hit with someones crap flug from above??
true story!

Originally posted by jdjanda
Can everyone say cork?

I think the biggest issue is not the responsible Tread Lightly crowd. It is the occasional weekend wheeler or the crowd that does not give a sheet. My solution is a 5 gallon bucket with trash bags and tight sealing lid. The question should be how to make the people that don't give a sheet care?

this was brought up at the meeting also, a solution could be having a state licenced concessionar at each end of the trail checking out clean RUBICANs at one end and collecting the filled ones on the other end!! the concesioniar would be responsibel for cleaning, But I hear FOTR should be recommending very soon "you pack all your crap all the way home" not dumping and compounding someone elses problems.

this is how it is for some river rafting outfitters ALREADY!! , and they weigh your crap bag when you return the raft, the bag better be loaded or there ARE concequences.

Well my mom has been trying to give me 5 gallon buckets with tigh sealing lids for a few weeks now.
I guess I'll be picking them up from her house tonight. then I'll find me a seat. I'm gonna fab myself up a shitter tonight.

Lets have a trail shitter making contest.

The big problem with the hole shit issues was mentioned before.
Most of us have lots of back woods expierience.
Military, boyscouts, hunting, backbacking and general just living amongst it all expierience.

It's the other fools that come up their from the city that know nothing about crapping in the woods they think it's all about hanging your ass out like a bear or a dog wherever it feels right and then let it rip.

Think about all the city idiots in the winter putting chains on the rear of their Acura integra. then think about what happens when these people discover offroading and find themselves needintg to crap in the woods.
No porcelin around no knowledge of where and how to crap in the woods.

I think maybe signs and or a pamflit might be necesarry.

The mountain bike trails in contra costa county have little trail maps with a little history about the area and a few of the plants and animals in the area it then goes on to explain trail edicate and also tells you to pack out your dogs shit and any other garbage.
Maybe a sign some where with a little box would work.

Maybe even have some of them little dog doodoo baggies.
HHHMMMM I know I've even used the dog poo baggies for myselfe a few times in the sand dunes.
Maybe I'll use them on the con.

just crap in a bag & take it home

You know what....Thats just plain O'l sick! Just bag it up and toss it in the cooler! I'm gonna have to pass up on that idea!

Jeff

if you run rivers you'll find the same problem, most of the big waters have a ranger check in where they check for a rocket box. No shitter and you don't run the river!! diggin' a hole only works in low impact areas shit in a box and call it good!

Originally posted by dog walker


You know what....Thats just plain O'l sick! Just bag it up and toss it in the cooler! I'm gonna have to pass up on that idea!

Jeff

Jeff i thank you for your honesty!!!
thats the kind of discussion we're looking for!!
I think 90% of us feel the same way.... gross!!

I think that out houses are the easiest answer. I go camping at the real wentworth springs. The one where the old hoteland the joe joe water springs are and have helped build many outhouses. There are 7 of them up there right now and haveall been in place for at least 5 ytears with people camping all summer long. There is probably at least 10 people there at most times during the summer. They don't cost much to build, they could be single seaters or the double ones for the people who like to crap together.:eek: If there was at least four or five of them built for the summer it would make it a lot better. Or you could charge people money for going to the bathroom incorrectly. When the Jeepers Jamboree went through wentworth the owner used to have people walking around looking for people going to the bathroom on our property and then write down their license plate number and send them a bill. This would be a little tough to do, but it might help a little.

Hey you already have to pack it out in moab, why not the con as well. I almost never have to crap on the trail and usually wont need to on a 1 or 2 day camping trip so for me its not a big deal, but yes i would pack it out if need be.

Dallas

Does any one else go into low poo count camping mode like i do.
The kind of poops that after your done wiping you realize you really didn't need to wipe. I always do wipe :D

Just seems that my body kinda makes this adjustment when I'm in the woods. I do have to pee alot more though I just crap less and it seems to be a little more of the consisancy of dog poop easy to pick up and hardly any mess :D Still stinks the same though :D
I hear they have a cleasning pill thing you can take that will take care of the stink though :D

I work too hard at being "regular" to go several days without. However when I was younger it wasn't a problem. But this is really Too Much Information!

Dallas is right about Moab, we rent the porta-crappers and each trail leader carries one along, until it needs to be used then the crapper and bag become responsibility of those who had the need.

However the problem with this solution is still disposal. Could you imagine what the large trash bins at Loon or McKinney would look and smell like if everyone tossed their plastic bags into it. :eek: :barf: How many would carry their "baggage" all the way home or to a disposal site in Sac or Carson or?????

New outhouses are NOT an acceptable solution on most BLM or Forestry land... old ones sorta get grandfathered in, but new ones have to pass stringent approval and service guidelines... just putting up outhouses is a short-term solution. How ya gonna empty them?

I have been turning over the idea of a contest for creating the best shitter for some time with friends, and have even discussed it with some vendors. Watch for the details in the next month here, and on 4x4Wire.com -- any action will be planned in conjunction with the Friends of the Rubicon... as with last year's road maintenance effort, we need to plan this out in advance and not go off half-cocked (a little toilet humor :D )

There are several challenges -- stationary toilets, portable toilets, and education... We'd like everyone to take out their own waste, but the reality is that not everyone will, so we'll need to educate. We'll also need to teach how to handle waste -- you can't just crap in a plastic bag and toss it in the next outhouse or toilet you past, since the waste treatment industry doesn't handle plastic well.

This is a GREAT opportunity for us to work with other recreationalists (white water rafters, big wall climbers, heck... the Tinbenders can even lend some experience from the :bender: goatherder :bender: side of the fence! :D ) to really make a lasting contribution to low-impact camping! I sure would love the irony of seeing the Sierra Club grudgingly start to promote a solution that four-wheelers came up with!

Randii

Have any of you ever read "How to Shit in the Woods" By: Kathleen Meyer? It is a good book and also makes a good gift;)
Ch. 3 is titled "When You Can't Dig a Hole".

I wouldn't mind packing my shit out. Much better to have it in the bed of my truck than in my backpack (while backpacking). If they want it to work they need to provide the cans/bags and something to do with them when you get out.

The Crap has to be taken out. Outhouse is just not the answer.

River rafters use Ammo Cans to hold the crap. The 5 Gallon bucket is to large. It is a nice thought to make it easier and the ladies will love it to. A 50 cal ammo can should be fine for a 4-6 day trip. Bag it up, tie it shut and stick the back in the can. For that matter your fire ash is really good at neutralizing the odor. So pack it out too.

Originally posted by kodak

River rafters use Ammo Cans to hold the crap. The 5 Gallon bucket is to large. It is a nice thought to make it easier and the ladies will love it to. A 50 cal ammo can should be fine for a 4-6 day trip. Bag it up, tie it shut and stick the back in the can. For that matter your fire ash is really good at neutralizing the odor. So pack it out too.

i was waiting to see if someone would say that....

I use to raft a lot, and camp at least 40 days a year(not in a row) But the "Fire ash" should be taken out as well. We do the exact same thing, combine the ash and wast. You can pick up amo cans at surplus stores for around $2 to $10. And they latch like no other, so if you roll you have no worries. I put a thick plastic liner in it to avoid leakage....
Simple and effective!

I've never been to the Rubican, but it has the same impact as everywere else.

Always use existing fire pits/rings, and pack out the ashes, or it will overload the pit for the next people and so on. Side note: When you make a new fire pit, it nutrilizes the soil underneath, hense destroing future growth for a long time. not good.

:D :D :D
Happy Pooping!

I've got a friend who does some nvironmental restoration work, and the place where he worked over the summer set up a couple of these "composting toilets". Here's a link to a pretty good explanation of one of them:
http://www.deatech.com/natural/waste/toilet.html

After you drop a load, you sprinkle in a little bit of mulch, and it all sits in a tank under the seat, maybe 3' below. This tank has some sort of mechanism that rotates the shit around, mixing the old with the new and composting it faster and more thoroughly. The mechanism that turns the turds (hehe) can be either electrical, or manually operated. The toilets that my buddy, and 5 co-workers used over the summer only needed to be turned once a day, at most. Obviously, with more users, the circulation in the bin needs to be increased.
I think the best part of these toilets is the end product, which is just soil. Ya just open up the bin (it has a slot at the bottom) and shovel out the soil. No need for transportion of waste, or disposal. All that needs to be done is move it a little ways away from the toilet setup so you're not left with a huge dirt pile. :D
The systems are waterless, and each user can put his/her own little addition of mulch down the bowl.

The reason i think that this is going to be a good solution is due to the relatively low level of maintenance the system needs, and the fact that there are very low transportaion costs along with it. This keeps your costs low, and they are pretty trouble free with responsible use. (I know we're talkin about the general public... :rolleyes: )
Transporting the mulch in would not be very costly, as it isn't really that heavy of a product, and it could be carried in smaller containers, even by clubs etc.

BTW, if you do a search on composting toilets, there seems to be quite a bit of info on the net.

I think we can work out a solution to keep the trail completely open. I don't think everyone hauling there oun waste out is going to work. Myself I don't mind, I have used the ammo cans river rafting and I prefer it over an outhouse because of the smell/ fly factor. Most people just aren't gonna be into this though, and it is not going to happen. I think we need to work on a solution like Lances 2wd road. and if all else fails and they are ready to close it, I think all that they can do is close it to camping, since it is a county road etc. If this happened I imagine you could still camp on the private property at Rubicon springs, and certainly at Icehouse resrovoir campground etc. This would not be good at all, but I see this as a much more likely outcome than complete closure of the trail, Jeep Jamboree etc has too much money tied up in it for that to happen.

However the problem with this solution is still disposal. Could you imagine what the large trash bins at Loon or McKinney would look and smell like if everyone tossed their plastic bags into it. How many would carry their "baggage" all the way home or to a disposal site in Sac or Carson or?????

This is a BIG problem. When I went on a trip to the Maze District in Canyonlands, we used the 5 gallon bucket variety. Well, after a week with half a dozen guys, it was about half full when we got to the nearest place we could get rid of it - an RV park in Green River.

RV dumps are fine, except for one thing: How to get a 5 gallon bucket o' sh!t through a 4" pipe. Tried twisting the top of the bag and jammin it in. It got stuck. Long session with pole jammed in piupe with breaks to gag resulted in the offending material eventually finding it through the tube. Really, really gross.

Needless to say, my friends all chipped in for a steak dinner that night.

Composting toilets are great. But you need to use easily biodigradeable paper and no other items can be placed into the pit, ie Transylvanian Teabags, empty bottles or cancer sticks.

I agree that this could be a great solution my real concern about this is that so many people use the 'con and not all are the caring variety that would'nt shoot up the toilet or muck up the pit resulting in a maintenance nightmare. Hell you can't even have a sign at the bottom of the spillway last a season without bullet holes or being run over. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Belly Dragger
Hell you can't even have a sign at the bottom of the spillway last a season without bullet holes or being run over. :rolleyes:

To my knowledge, our sign at the spillway is still there in perfect condition... Been there for a couple years. Just gotta make the signs "idiot proof" ;)

As was mentioned before. The weather on the Con isn't suitable for good composting. During the cold months the refuse would just sit. There was a guy (already forgot name) at the meeting who is considered to be an expert in backcountry waste management (worked on similar situations for 30 or so years) and he loved the idea but said it wasn't practical for the area. If you are familiar with Spider lake ,which is the main spot of concern, you know there is little to no soil up there, almost all granite which only complicates the issue.
It's not an easy issue but luckily we have an awesome group of people working on a solution.

Originally posted by Lance
To my knowledge, our sign at the spillway is still there in perfect condition... Been there for a couple years. Just gotta make the signs "idiot proof" ;) Umm the last time I looked the "County Road" sign at the spillway looks more like a whiffle ball than a county road sign but I should have picked a better example, like the sign at Mc Kinney indicating that road work was being performed. That one was up maybe a whole week before it was a target. Which is an indication that it was probably NOT 4-wheelers but local drunken idiots that caused that damage. ;)

http://www.bumperdumper.com/art/Bdiia.jpg

All the comforts of home. :D

http://www.pirate4x4.com/scrap/dean_outhouse.jpg
:eek::eek:

well i would have no problem doin the PVC pipe idea or the ammo can deal. but what am i goin to do with the crap when i get out from the trail. maybe like a vault and a hose to spray it out. i have seen them when climbint Mt. Shasta.

Drew

[QUOTE]Originally posted by randii
[B]New outhouses are NOT an acceptable solution on most BLM or Forestry land... old ones sorta get grandfathered in, but new ones have to pass stringent approval and service guidelines... just putting up outhouses is a short-term solution. How ya gonna empty them?

When I say outhouses I don't mean portapotties. I mean ones that are made out of wood and you dig about a 5 foot hole and set them on top of them. When they get full you just move them over 1 feet or so and dig another hole.

I think the ammo can, can:D is a good idea butt:D what to do with the plastic bag of brown trout is the real issue for those of use who are willing to pack it back out. I can just through it in the trash and it can't be flushed so what are the options. That is the question for me

sounds to me like the best idea is a
septic system.

In stead of saying it would be to hard to do

why dont we talk about ways to do it..

I have seen some dranage fields whare
peopple brought in fill dirt.

how many trips would a unimog have to
make to acoplish this task ?

Might seem like a lot but if we do the math
might be cheepest and easyest soulution.

it would defenately be the best.

I think packing it with you is a good idea. With that many people it is the only way to really make it work at a low cost. Here in Southern Louisiana, they are making us put septice tanks into our duck hunting camps even. These are camps that only have 4 to 6 people a weekend and the closest other camp is 20 miles away. Its not just trails but everywhere they are doing this.

Originally posted by Land Crusher
sounds to me like the best idea is a
septic system.

In stead of saying it would be to hard to do

why dont we talk about ways to do it..

I have seen some dranage fields whare
peopple brought in fill dirt.

how many trips would a unimog have to
make to acoplish this task ?

Might seem like a lot but if we do the math
might be cheepest and easyest soulution.

it would defenately be the best.

I forgot to mention that. I agree that a septic system would be the best way if a bathroom is built. To properly engineer a septicsystem it will need allot of dirt and dirt of a cirtain type so the dirt will need to be drought in anyway. So we need to just start trailering it in or whatever to get the dirt there we need

There are some great ideas in process here, and some creativity... that's what we need. There is no single solution to this -- at minimum, we need to educate the users to pinch a loaf at Loon's last-stop vault toilet (already regularly serviced), then insert a cork. That's a short-term strategy, but we can also educate folks to where the existing outhouses are on the trail, and encourage those folks who can't hold it to at least take a hike way back into the woods and dig an appropriate hole.

Now clearly cat-holes everywhere won't work, but while we are educating folks on the bare basics of responsibly shitting in the woods, we can be implementing mid-term strategies, like carry-along port-a-potties, ammo cans, etc. Somebody could set up a Depends concession, too. :D

All of these things will ease the impact on the area as we educate our peers, and buy us time to research longer-term solutions like vault toilets, composting toilets, septic fields, etc. No single solution makes sense right now, or it would have been done already. Transporting/storing/disposing of waste is complicated, and public land management doesn't male this any easier. The context of the trail, off-the-blacktop in rugged territory -- well, that makes it even tougher.

As a community, though, we can work through this issue... we proved it on the last FOTR project, and we'll do it again here. :cool:

Randii

I LIKE 66CJDEANS IDEA .GET TOGETHER WITH LARGE
OFFROAD COMPANIES AND HAVE A RAFFEL.TO ENTER YOU NEED TO SHOW UP AT SPIDER WITH A TRAILER LOAD OF DIRT(I KNOW EVERYONE CAN COME UP WITH A TRAILER AT LEAST ONE TRIP A YEAR)AND PUT IT IN APROPRATE SPOT.BUT FOR NOW PACK IT OUT!WHO KNOW`S WE MIGHT GET ALOT OF DIRT IN ONE YEAR.
JUST AN IDEA??:flipoff2:

I think the ammo can, can is a good idea butt what to do with the plastic bag of brown trout is the real issue for those of use who are willing to pack it back out. I can just through it in the trash and it can't be flushed so what are the options. That is the question for me

In ch. 3 of "How to Shit in the Woods" it says:
"It's the giant SCAT Machine (from Frenchglen Blacksmiths, Hwy 205 Frenchglen, OR 97736), essentially an industrial sized dishwasher hooked up into a sewer system...closing the machine causes it to swing through a 180 turn and dumps the holding tank's contents down the sewer. Drop a few quarters or tokens into a slot and the apperatus washes and sanitizes your tank and all but reaches out and hands it back to you." It also says the Feds have allready bought 3 of these thins.


The other solution (that the book gives not me!) is a colon flush with enemas! It says you can go for a few days (maybe even longer) without having to crap!

I think I would rather pack it out!

I've seen this issue brewing for years now. My solution is to put some cat litter in a sealed canister like an ammo can or bucket w/air tight lid and be done with it. the problem is that 95% of people are disgusting a-holes that just don't care where they shit.

BTW - just for the record city folk are typically conscious about where they take a shit, it’s you country folk that'll shit in your own back yards
:flipoff2:

Turd Lightly?

If it will save the con then I say yes lets do it! --- NOW!

Sure lots of (stupid) people will continue to blow crap all over the landscape but I think if a real strong campaign were launched in a few years it would be common knowledge that's it's simply not cool to leave your crap on the trail. Pirate 4x4 could lead the way with just a single web page that we could all link to from our personal web pages, call it the "TURD LIGHTLY" page if you will. I bet 80% of con visitors could be helped to see the value in just a year or two. A large sign at the 3 main entrances explaining why and how with suggestions like using ammo cans and bags would help a lot too.

Next time I see one of those small ammo cans I am going to buy one and figure out a way to attach it under my flat bed. Seems like the best solution. In an ammo can it would stay "fresh" all the way home.

This is just the sort of "effort" we need to put out if we want to make a difference and keep our trail access.


TURD LIGHTLY!

I can never find a hidden spot to do my deed at the con, People are everywhere. I got a solution, I got a dog that will eat it, probably before it hits the ground!

use a 50 cal ammo can kina a combanation of many things said in the above posts you take one on some paper rol it up put it in a plastic bag and then put that bag in another bag for safety reasons not a big deal you wipe then you place the whole thing in the can also you can put those tree scents in the can, coffee, or use poop gel that gels and takes the odor out as for safety the 50 cal cans have a locking lid.


only down side is if you forget to label your can and you go to grab your recover can(straps and the like) and you get the recovery can(shit)

:D

the septis idea is great the only problem i forsee is the granite a backhoe will be hard pressed to dig in this you'll need a large trencher with a rock wheel not an easy find nor easy piece to get in but like lance said if the service road was opened then this idea could rock have a weekend shitter building party what we need to do and i see alot of us already doing this is throw all our ideas wether practical or sill or stupid out there and we can see the pros and cons of many differnt ways to do this. hell if we can build a 4x4 how hard can a pop wagon be:smokin:

this is sick but if you put a little bacon greese
on it a animal will eat it and it will be recyled.

well, i'm a newbe, i've never been to the con, but... when i go this summer, my plan is a combination of some of the above ideas, with some of my own thrown in.
shit in a bag, i use safeway produce bags for picking up my dog's shit, so they should work fine. and i get them by the roll for free cause my dad works at safeway.
then put the individual bags of shit in a caped peice of pvc, throw that in the back of my truck.
when on the way home, stop at a random dumpster in one of those towns in the central valley, and dump out the tube.
now this may not be the best soulution, stealing bags from safeway and dumping the shit in some dumpster, but i guess it could be refined, buy the bags, and then throw the shit in your trash can when you get home.
just my ideas,
Jeff

turd lightly....that's fawkin classic :D I have no problem with pooping in a bag or box or glad-lock or whatever, but my question is what the fawk am i supposed to do with it when I get home?

i think that it would be difficult to sh*t in a bag while your holding the two handles. I usually use one hand to balance when i squat. I better idea is to strap a diaper on the mean eating dog and put bacongrease on your sh*t. The diaper should hold up to 24 pounds, wudyathink?:rolleyes:

Again -- bags and shit don't go together!

It isn't good trash (trash isn't handled with the same care as crap), so you shouldn't toss it in a dumpster. You can't just throw it in the toilet or porta-potty, either -- plastic bags foul up sewers, septic, and chemical toilets.

Bagging your crap isn't a much better solution than crapping on the trail....

Randii

AMEN, Preach it brother!:flipoff2:

We need to teach the bears to eat human waste. Maybe it will keep them out of the ice chests:D :D Yeah that's it get some starv'n bears from afganistan or say maybe some poor third world nation and teach them to eat shit:D :D

Ok all kidd'n aside. look how fast all you fawkers filled the toilet at amador, by sa-turd-ay you guys had them nearly overflowing.
So we all know toilets ain't the answer, and most of you would need a couple of ammo boxes, bring a 5 gallon can and burn it when you get home.

Chris we need to make bumper stickers SUPPORT TURD LIGHTLY, EAT MARSHMELLOWS.......

Poop eat'n dogs, theres a concept......just don't pass out with your tent door open your dog might wander in a lick your face.

and then again.....we'd have bigger piles of dog poop, but it might be easier to cork a dogs ass.

As this thread has shown, most of us don't even know the proper way to shit in the woods (myself included). I think education on the proper ways to pack it out will be best. I can't see building bathrooms of some sort being practical.

Be it TURD Lightly (I can see the logos now) or some other slogan I'll support it. Let's just develop a few "approved" methods of packing out that are easy for Joe Wheeler to follow. If they're hard and require a lot of work, they'll be ignored.

I see a lot of suggestions for outhouses and leach lines. Perhaps they dont realize the large quantities of waste that we are speaking of. You could not dig a hole deep enough. They would fill up every weekend during summer months. Leach lines and septic tanks work ok for single family houses, but not thousands of people. Couple that with the number of months in each year that the ground is frozen and that compounds the problems. Just like ordinary trash, we all need to be responsible for ourselves and not depend on someone else to clean up for us. Taking responsibility, thats what it is all about. Also, just like trash, there will be those who just do not do it. It will take an effort from everyone.

TURD Lightly

By the time this thread is done I'm going to be REAL glad I dont have a TRD Taco!:D :D :D

Is it possibly to upgrade the toilet at the last campground there and post on the sign use it or pack it - I bet 99% of the people are gonna use the outhouse ;)

Or maybe put one right at the end of the road or close to it with a sign you can't miss stating "last shit stop till Tahoe!"

Originally posted by kodak
The Crap has to be taken out. Outhouse is just not the answer.

River rafters use Ammo Cans to hold the crap. The 5 Gallon bucket is to large. It is a nice thought to make it easier and the ladies will love it to. A 50 cal ammo can should be fine for a 4-6 day trip. Bag it up, tie it shut and stick the back in the can. For that matter your fire ash is really good at neutralizing the odor. So pack it out too.
Glad somebody brought that up. That's how I do it. I have 2 ammo cans. one is a real narrow one with a couple of rolls of TP and a couple garbage bags. The second is a empty 50cal. open up the garbage bag crap in it then throw it in the 50 cal. You want to get real fancy then get you a bumper dumper and hang the bag under it.

Originally posted by 66CJdean
I think the ammo can, can:D is a good idea butt:D what to do with the plastic bag of brown trout is the real issue for those of use who are willing to pack it back out. I can just through it in the trash and it can't be flushed so what are the options. That is the question for me

You could donate it to the center for biological diversity. Maybe that would even make the steak and chili tax deductable.

Yea last chance to shit till tahoe!!
I Think the last loon lake shitter is gonna be a very very very poopular place this season!!
Just like i tell my kids "go the the bathroom befroe you get in the car"!! try it

In the mean time were gonna need some REEAAL good shit numbers to design any kind of waste removal program, which means we need to count butts comming thru the trail,
below is a copy of an email i sent to tthe FOTR mailing list which was inquireing information about accurate " BUTT COUNTS ON THE CON"



Regarding the pneumatic traffic counters, Brandon and I have both used the
counters here at Caltrans for traffic studies. The counters are great for
estimating traffic flow patterns but I would question their reliability for
accurately estimating human waste production numbers. To get legitimate waste
production numbers we would need actual counts, which would require someone
at each entrance verifying vehicle occupancy loads, trip itineraries, how
many nights each person would be staying, yada, yada, yada, basically a lot
of work.
Now if we combined the pneumatic counter data with some "actual count data", I
think we could generate some excellent correlation factors. In fact, if
done right, the correlation factors would be good enough so that in the
future just the phnumatic counters would be needed for accurate human waste
generation numbers. Our club (RCRC) looks forward to helping FOTR anyway we can.

so if ya see counters out there this season, human or automatic, PLEASE show some respect !!



Brian "FLASHLIGHTMAN" Gutierrez
Editor RCRC and 4x4STUFF.COM

I found this Forest Service approved portable toilet on REI. If each campsite deployed one of these and we encourage un-prepared people to use the facilities that others brought in this might help the problem. Each camp sets up a toilet, a flag and tarp for privacy, charge people a buck to use the facility and give the user back his/her jelled package this would go a long way to reduce the impact.

http://www.rei.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=5397485&prmenbr=8000&cgrfnbr=

Joe

All I'm gonna say is that I will be driving fast by the dumpsters at each end of the 'con and the pit potties at Loon come August.

P.........U......... :barf:

I would expect the forest dudes to start charging for using the pits at Loon. That's gonna be a huge amount of shit. :eek:

River runners have gone past the rocket box ( all though most will still call them grovers from the old days). A modern grover has a pressure relief valve , a place for the seat ( or a fold out seat for the kayak size) with a top that seals, a separate top that hooks up to a RV type clean out. And a attachment for a garden house. These things WORK. On a 3 day trip on a big river the boat carrying the grover can flip the grover does not leak. With a little precoat (cooking oil) on the inside before the trip and the wash out goes well.
Really if it was not for this kind of waste management us river runners would be in the waste on the rivers that would still be open.
Hell I don't even do fires on the ground any more. A fire pan works great. I go out doors to enjoy it, not to find others TP all over the place.

some over the counter solutions
http://www.nrscatalog.com/product_list.asp?deptid=391

there is another brand that I have used that is not shown here ( at lest ) but I am not finding now.

I say pack it out its just your shit any way:p

Originally posted by Gila Monster
I say pack it out its just your shit any way:p Umm at 255-285 bucks I don't see that happening, hell half these guys won't spend that for a rig. :eek:

Those scat units are a little pricey for me but they've given me some great ideas on how to start building my own! Thanks for the link!

I will try to find a link to the one that I use ( don't remember the name ) it was cheaper then those, and smaller.

Ok this is what I use


http://www.cascadeoutfitters.com/shop/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=814

Just dig really deep or hold it :)

I have one of these, bought it at Kmart for $69. I guess its time to start carrying it everywhere i go

http://www.jacksons-camping.co.uk/general/toilet.htm

Originally posted by jdjanda


http://www.rei.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=5397485&prmenbr=8000&cgrfnbr=

Joe


FYI - REI is anti motorized recreation and pro-adventure pass.... I would look somewhere else for your outdoor gear...


:usa:

Around summer time last year, Ned Bacon wrote an article for 4WheelParts on this subject. Put it in a bag and pack it out was the jist of it.

He has been doing it almost forever. He warned that if people didn't start doing this, areas would be closed.

Originally posted by dncswrk
Around summer time last year, Ned Bacon wrote an article for 4WheelParts on this subject. Put it in a bag and pack it out was the jist of it.

He has been doing it almost forever. He warned that if people didn't start doing this, areas would be closed.

Nedstradamus????? :flipoff2:

Originally posted by Yellowsub1962



FYI - REI is anti motorized recreation and pro-adventure pass.... I would look somewhere else for your outdoor gear...


:usa:

Thanks for the heads up, I'll put them on the same list as Berkley, no money will be spent. I won't even look for a job in the city or allow my kids to attend UC Berzekly

Joe

Well there may be a market for off roading depends. But on a more serious note, how about those sealed diaper trash bens that seal the smell in. Make a rack for the gas can, spare tire and the used diaper receptical. The only problem I see is the diaper trash cans are clear and that would be gross to be able to tell if the other guy has the beer squirts!:barf:

the other day at the FOTR meeting a page from Clavey River Equipment web sight was floating around that had a decent toilet on there for about $153.00 it had a seat and it came with a hose that you could use at a RV dump sight do not shoot me if the link does not work http://www.clavey.com/ee_toilet (www.clavey.com/ee_toilet)

here is the phone # at least 1-800-832-4226 or clavey.com
again pc's are not my thing but I know some other people seen it to.

try this one www.clavey.com/camp.html scoll down to the bottom of the page and it is called Eco Safe. The thing i like about is that you can wash it out at a dump station like the one down the road from loon

As I promised Flashlightman here's the poop on what we use at my work... www.briefrelief.com

Its basically a 5 gallon bucket with an easy to open screw top and plastic liners filled with enzymes and other chems that take out the stank and turn it into a gel mass. The liners are sort of two bags in one and the inner bag folds into the outer bag, then you ziplock the outer bag and your done. Used bags live in the bottom of the screwtop bucket. Used bags are safe to dispose of in the garbage, so there is no revisiting the issue.

Each liner even comes with tp and an antibacterial wipe. All in all, simple light and cheaper than this other stuff.

"At my work the field crews get these hi-tech poop bags and a poop'n tent. The bags have some chemical poo-poo voodoo that kills the stanks and gels it into a tidy mass. Sounds gnarly but they work really good. I'll get the name of the vendors today.

BTW...I think alot of this wouldnt be an issue if people at least had the common coutesy to BURY their poop (bring a shovel for god's sake), and burn the paper at night in the fire."

Ditto on the second part here...f**cking 'ground sh*tters!'

I don't like any of the pack it in, pack it out sh*tter solutions, but the http://www.briefrelief.com one seems like the smallest, lightest, and least offensive smelling of them all...maybe use my own ammo can to put the bags in instead of the plastic can. Yuck. BTW how much do these cost?

Good tips on the campfire ash and the kittylitter....hadn't thought of those.

The guy at my work is finding out exactly how much for each bag, he couldnt remember, we just bought a bunch a while back. The plastic bucket is pretty cool actually, but an ammo can would be more compact.

It's nasty, it's gross but we gotta do it fella's. I like the contest idea. I'm already working on my version. Great post Brian!

Some other note's from the FOTR meeting is that the Rubicon will be under a MICRSCOPE this year and for years to come there will be law enforcement up there to again this year. There was a suggestion to seek out some private land up there to put some toilets or what not on , but the state said that they probaly could not fund it or maintain it because it is on private property.
Anyway i can't wait to see some home made designs of shitter's the only thing is I would not want to be the one to test it in a rollover.:barf:

Just some long distance poo flinging from TN :p


IMHO - as good as "pack it out" is for a plan, you are preaching to the choir here - but most people just aren't gonna do it.

Wanna test the theory? Start a poll here... let people answer is "anonymously" with something like the following options:

1. Yes, I would pack out my poo.
2. No, I would not pack out my poo.
3. I would only pack out my poo if I was forced to (fines, etc.)
4. I would only pack out my poo if there was an easy, clean, and hassle free method presented for me to do so.



IMHO - I think there are more people - even on this board - who simply would not want to pack out their poo.

i think I'd rather pay the fine!

Peer pressure is a powerful thing, especially when ya got your pants down on film. :)
Of course theres always gonna be some shit heads that can't hang, but we'er gonna need a permit to run the trail within the next 5 or so years if the shit keeps pilen up, if it's still open by then!!

Originally posted by FLASHLIGHTMAN
Peer pressure is a powerful thing, especially when ya got your pants down on film. :)
Of course theres always gonna be some shit heads that can't hang, but we'er gonna need a permit to run the trail within the next 5 or so years if the shit keeps pilen up, if it's still open by then!!

Yep, gotta agree with ya Brian, permits are coming. It will be the only way to keep the trails from closing completely. This is no different than what Whitewater rafters have do do. They were destroying the land along the rivers by overuse. The Con is overused, and that is a fact or this thread would not exist.

It will be permits or closure if we don't solve this on our own. As much as i want to disagree with those who say we never will because of the few idiots who don't care, it's probably true.

As much as permits will suck, because it will mean planning ahead, they won't suck, because the idiots are to lazy to apply for them, and so they will be weeded out. That will leave the responsible wheelers as the users of the trails, the ones who do care.

As far as I'm concerned, if a person does not respect the wilderness, they don't deserve to be there anyway.

We all need to thank the Clubs like the Pirates, RCRC and many many others that are willing to step up and actively participate in finding ways to get the 4x4 community to police itself.

It's up to us to make sure that future generations get to enjoy the outdoors so tread and TURD lightly!

Chris, since you came up with "Turd Lightly", I bet you could sell bumper stickers with it on it and use the procedds to finance an education campaign of signs and volenteers to hand out flyers up on the con promoting ways to easily haul out the crap. I know our club would be happy to participate in something like this.

I bet FOTR would be willing to help get a "Turd Lightly" campaign going.

Here is a plan I'm working on with the guys and gals over at 4X4STUFF.COM and (RCRC)
We'er designing a 4x4 crapper the "RUBICAN"!

Yup, YOUR club should think hard about it tooo.

Heres the way it will work, in theory, anytime one of our club members heads to the trail, thay'll be encouraged to take the "RUBICAN" in with em, with a special tent for privacy. Once set up, for a donation of $1 ANYONE can use the "RCRC RUBICAN" and RCRC will haul it out and be responsibel for disposal.

what could be easier than that ?? would you donate a buck to keep your crap of the trail??

I think in the very near future, if your out there and your camp don't have a crapper and privacy tent or something, the pressure is gonna be on ya! It probably won't be long before you'll get a ticket for not having one!!

I would GIve a Buck! ;)

maybe we can hook up the shower and have shit n shower for 2 bucks he he

Just a suggestion, since shit-in-the-woods here won't be seen again until it's turned into soil... :D

...Take a 2-foot long piece of 4" PVC.
Put a LOCKABLE trailer-shit-dumping valve on the top with a 4"-to-6" Adapter on top. Mount a garden-hose connector with a one-way valve on this adapter, but put it on one side so the water jets around the "bowl" of the adapter in a spiral.
Put a 6" screw-top on the adapter.

Put a LOCKABLE trailer-shit-dumping valve on the bottom with about 6" of 4" PVC below it.

...The idea being, when you have to drop a turd, you unscrew the top, open the top valve, and poop in the pipe. When you're done, you close the top valve.

When you're done wheelin', go somewhere with a RV dump, and put the 6" of PVC in the ground hole. You leave the screw-top on, plug the water line into the garden hose connector, open both valves, and turn the hose on, and it'll rinse it out, and down into the wild, blue yonder. :D

Then close up your valves and take it home. Wash it more thoroughly when you get home, if you want.

...I would suggest having another case (Like a water-tight bag or something) that you put it in while on the trail, for the "just in case"...

You could even build a bipod so it would stand up on its own while you pooped. :D

...Just my 2 cents. Wouldn't cost much, and it's pretty simple.

man, The idea if trying to crap IN and not ON a 6in pipe sounds kind chancey, especially after a few drinks, could you post a pic of this??

the day i have to carry a bucket to shit in while i am out in the wilderness is the same day i drive right over to the local BLM office and lay a huge steamer on their door step. this is ridiculious. i can quarantee that you will never be able to find a turd i have left behind. the real problem is the lazy and uneducated people that don't have a clue about wilderness shittin ediquite. take a 5 minute walk away from traffic areas or camping zones and bury your shit 6" in the dirt. end of story.

places like spider lake are hardly wilderness but more of high traffic recreational areas. the taxes we pay for things like green stickers and such need to be allocated to puttin in public sanatation. until then i will continue to take my 5 minute nature hikes away from the crowds and bury my shit deep in the earth. who knows maybe i am fertilizing the next redwood tree.

oh crap!

that's crappy

dam.. at first I was feeling sorry for the wheelers....but now it looks like the BLM? will be getting a steamer too :) :)

That will truely be something to see!! :)

Originally posted by FLASHLIGHTMAN
man, The idea if trying to crap IN and not ON a 6in pipe sounds kind chancey, especially after a few drinks, could you post a pic of this??

Sure; I'll have to draw it first. :D

...And the point was that you'd sit on it. Maybe it should have a seatbelt for drunken shits? :D