I've heard a lot of great things about doing a YJ shackle reversal conversion, and Canyon State Components apperently makes a kit which would sure be easier than doing it on my own :)

Are they still in business?
http://www.canyonstatecomponents.com/ seems to be gone?

Any road complaints about this for a daily driver? I am planning on doing the conversion before a possible drive half way across Canada this August (about 10,000km or 6,000miles round trip)-I want it done ASAP, not next fall.

I just saw something on rocky road's (http://www.rocky-road.com/truth.html) page:
"The bottom line is that shackle reversals on short wheelbase vehicles cause strange and potentially dangerous things to happen to your vehicle at highway speeds when you are braking hard" There is more to read there, but that sums it all up...

I'd like to hear any comments from people using SR on their Samurai, especially with YJ springs.

The bottom line is that shackle reversals on short wheelbase vehicles cause strange and potentially dangerous things to happen to your vehicle at highway speeds when you are braking hard

And missing links don't?????? phoey!

Talk to DaveAZ at www.asianautopartsofaz.com about getting the YJ shackle reversal. I use my Samurai with the kit on the highway all the time, and it drives wonderfully. Better than with standard shackles. Plus, the shackle reversal works really nice in the rocks, where it allows the front axle to move backward as it climbs, relieving tension and driveline windup. It also keeps the springs from getting bent if you jam your front tire up against an immovable, unclimbable object. I highly recommend the YJ shackle reversal!

Originally posted by Titan
I just saw something on rocky road's page:
"The bottom line is that shackle reversals on short wheelbase vehicles cause strange and potentially dangerous things to happen to your vehicle at highway speeds when you are braking hard"

Yeah, that's Glenn's typical approach to anything he doesn't make or sell. If it's on the internet, it must be true, eh?

:beer: BoB :smokin:

Originally posted by Titan
I just saw something on rocky road's (http://www.rocky-road.com/truth.html) page:
"The bottom line is that shackle reversals on short wheelbase vehicles cause strange and potentially dangerous things to happen to your vehicle at highway speeds when you are braking hard" There is more to read there, but that sums it all up...

I'd like to hear any comments from people using SR on their Samurai, especially with YJ springs.

Shackle reverse causes brake dive - and possibly a caster change. Nothing more, nothing less. Not nearly as "sensational" as that blurb would lead you to believe.

If you decide to go S/R - pay close attention to the front prop shaft - you will need to accomodate it's desire to push back on the t-case. Longer slip yokes do the job. Ramp it to figure out what you need - or buy a kit that already has these details sorted out.

Originally posted by Root Moose


Shackle reverse causes brake dive - and possibly a caster change. Nothing more, nothing less. Not nearly as "sensational" as that blurb would lead you to believe.

If you decide to go S/R - pay close attention to the front prop shaft - you will need to accomodate it's desire to push back on the t-case. Longer slip yokes do the job. Ramp it to figure out what you need - or buy a kit that already has these details sorted out.


I honestly think a lot of the brake dive on Zuks is a direct result of the worthless rear drums on the stock axles. When I went to the Toy axles I was blown away by the new feel of the brakes, I can lock them up and the cab hardly moves.

Originally posted by Azrckcrawler


I honestly think a lot of the brake dive on Zuks is a direct result of the worthless rear drums on the stock axles. When I went to the Toy axles I was blown away by the new feel of the brakes, I can lock them up and the cab hardly moves.

I dunno Chris, weight transfer is weight transfer. The only way to affect the weight transfer is to change the suspension geometry (how the c of g is reacted by the suspension).

I'd be more inclined to think that because you changed the axles you also changed the geometry and/or changed the shocks and springs at the same time...shocks and springs will will slow down (but not change) the the weight transfer if they are stiffer.

I dunno, you are running leafs, right?

I've had the CSC kit on mine since last July and am quite happy with it. It flexes really well off-road and rides fine onroad. I can't really compare it to other setups on the highway though because I went straight from stock to running the CSC kit spring under, then spring over.

I have no swaybar so I get a lot of body roll and also get brakedive though. Most people counter this to some extent with R9000's set hard on the road.

Dave at AAoAZ is definately your best bet to see if it's still available. He had some issues with the way they were handling things (they would not make the kits before they were ordered and then proceeded to take months to build the ordered kits). Not sure if that's changed. If it hasn't, then I don't think Dave is taking any orders for it (for a while he was turning down orders because they weren't getting him the 5 orders he already had).

Originally posted by Root Moose


I dunno Chris, weight transfer is weight transfer. The only way to affect the weight transfer is to change the suspension geometry (how the c of g is reacted by the suspension).

I'd be more inclined to think that because you changed the axles you also changed the geometry and/or changed the shocks and springs at the same time...shocks and springs will will slow down (but not change) the the weight transfer if they are stiffer.

I dunno, you are running leafs, right?

Same springs, same shocks, same tires, same suspension mounting points. You can recreate the effect by getting up some speed on a ten speed and then pull hard only on the front brake, hold on! If you pull both brakes you get a totally different result (less weight transfer I think).

I dunno, if you think about it physics-wise, a decleration of X feet/sec. will cause the same amount of weight to be transferred to the front axle, wether the braking force comes from the front or rear.

On the other hand, have any of you non-Toy axled guys seen the drums on a Toy axle? There's about 3/4" inch gap between the backing plate and a 15" wheel all the way around. I don't think they could get much bigger and still fit a 15" wheel.

with my samurai being my first and only 4-wheeled vehicle i've ever owned, i guess my comments should be taken for what they're worth (less) (:flipoff2: )
people always seem to make out this "brake dive" thing as some utterly hideous, avoid at all costs, devastating disease....
maybe old age is fogging my memories, but i don't seem to recall being horrified with out of control, front-bumper-banging-the tarmac shenanigans after installing my SR.
i noticed infinitely more handling quirks after removing the anti sway bar, but again, i didn't get my samurai after having owned cars/trucks etc. so Everything was new to me. i had no preconceptions as to what was "good" handling vs "bad".
(you don't know what brake dive IS until you do front brake nose stands on a dual purpose motorcycle with a foot of travel in the forks...)
as far as the other things mentioned, like "weird" front driveshaft propensities etc. etc.-i dunno:confused: everybody who DIDN'T have an SR said bad things about them, everybody who HAD done it, only praised them.
i don't THINK i'm having a horrible time driving mine......but who knows?:D

Here is where being an engineer hurts, but here ya go.....

From a physics perspective, the relative breaking ability on the rear axle will have a significant affect on braking dive. This is because by applying the brakes, you are controlling the variable friction coefficient of the system which is in the brakes themselves. If you apply too much brake, then the fixed coefficient of friction between the tire and road is overcome by the variable coefficient of friction between the shoes and pads, and the car skids. Since the coeficient of friction in the braking system is variable and is controlled by the pedal pressure, by changing the relative braking capacity between the front and rear brakes will change the distribution of braking force and also the weight transfer. The same thing happens when you change the proportioning valve for instance. More pressure to the rears, less dive (provided the rear brakes are big enough to do the job and you don't push them to the point of locking up). There will always be weight transfer towards the fron, even if you are applying all of the braking force at the rears. The point is, there is less weight transfer (as well as less stopping ability) by using only the rears.

(This sounds like the Unibomber wrote it hugh!)

Here's the shit..

If you want a really good YJ kit that is out on the market, and much nicer then the Canyon States thing, then check out the kit that Brent sell up at Trail Tough. No shackle reversal, no brake dive, no expensive drive shaft with huge slip yoke needed, no screwed up caster angle, and no huge shackle out back.:eek:

That pretty much covers my beefs about the Canyon States kit. Check out the turning radius on one of those, not to mention the spring wrap in the rear springs.. They seem to hold up just fine though, and work well on the trail. The caster angle is really nasty. The king pins are at such an angle it is more like you are flopping the wheels around, rather then turning them.

-Wayne

We fabbed our own setup with shackle reverse, works great on and off road as far as I am concerned. I had standard shackle and "Missing Links" and it was a spooky ride on the street , I put a "Panhard" rod and it helped but I am much happier with YJ springs and shackle reverse. Brake dive:flipoff2: don't lbuy the hype I have no problem with it..

I dunno Chris, weight transfer is weight transfer. The only way to affect the weight transfer is to change the suspension geometry (how the c of g is reacted by the suspension).

When he put axles on that weigh twice as much as the old ones he DID change the c of g. You can bet that changing the brakes but not the mc also affected brake bias. How does bias affect dive...see below.

I dunno, if you think about it physics-wise, a decleration of X feet/sec. will cause the same amount of weight to be transferred to the front axle, wether the braking force comes from the front or rear.

Tusker is right but let me take the "geek speak" (George you know I love you) out of it for ya...Ever ride a motorcycle??? Try the front brake....then try the rear brake...notice anything different? Which brake is being utilized makes a HUGE difference in weight transfer. Race car people spend a big part of their life trying to get it just right! Weight transfer is a MAJOR component of getting traction, and things like dive can be tweaked to be a benefit, it is not in and of itself a "bad thing"

I guess im screwed i have Sr and missing links in the back LOL!

O no wait i just remberied with dual t-cases and 5.71 gears hell i want be able to go 45 MPH so i guess i dont have to work about highway speeds LOL!

I guess im screwed i have Sr and missing links in the back LOL

Me too!

Originally posted by rotozuk
Here's the shit..

If you want a really good YJ kit that is out on the market, and much nicer then the Canyon States thing, then check out the kit that Brent sell up at Trail Tough. No shackle reversal, no brake dive, no expensive drive shaft with huge slip yoke needed, no screwed up caster angle, and no huge shackle out back.:eek:

That pretty much covers my beefs about the Canyon States kit. Check out the turning radius on one of those, not to mention the spring wrap in the rear springs.. They seem to hold up just fine though, and work well on the trail. The caster angle is really nasty. The king pins are at such an angle it is more like you are flopping the wheels around, rather then turning them.

-Wayne

I've been really, really happy with my CSC shackle reversal. NO need for a panhard bar, awesome flex, and a super-smooth ride. I've seen Trail Tough's YJ kit and I really like it, bu tit's not a shackle reversal, which is part of the benefit to the CSC kit. But if you don't want a shackle reversal, the Trail Tough kit is definitely the way to go.

As for the problems you mention, Wayne, I believe that's based on what you saw of the kit on my Zuk at Hollister? I've fixed all of those problems. Well not all; the front driveshaft is required, but it's something that really should be upgraded on any serious rig anyways. I keep blowing up U-joints and driveshafts in back every time I go out on the trail, because I still have a stock one. So I gave up and ordered a matching rear SUMO driveshaft to solve that problem once and for all. As for the steering angle, my big Samurai turns significantly tighter than my bone-stock daily driver Samurai. Seriously. It turns at least a foot tighter circle, due to that kingpin angle you speak of. And as a side effect, it tracks nice and straight down the highway, rather than wanting to dart left and right as it did when I had Missing Links up front, even with a panhard bar. And as for the rear sitting lower than the front and requiring longer shackles, I solved that problem when I solved the spring wrap problem. I took some YJ 4-leaf packs, and added a long and a short leaf from some 5-leaf packs to make custom 6-leaf packs, and that raised the rear up to the proper level, and did TONS to prevent that spring wrap you saw on my zuk. Problem 80% solved. Also keep in mind that part of the reason why I had used such long rear shackles is that my Samurai is significantly heavier in back than most, with it being a Hardtop, with that big roof rack, the Rocky Road rear bumper & tire carrier with a 33" spare, 5 gallon gas can, and Hi-Lift jack all hanging off the back of the truck. I'm working on addressing that weight problem, but in the meantime, I've worked all the bugs out of the system as it's currently set up, and I'm VERY happy with it.

-- Geoff

Originally posted by Tusker
Here is where being an engineer hurts, but here ya go.....

From a physics perspective, the relative breaking ability on the rear axle will have a significant affect on braking dive. This is because by applying the brakes, you are controlling the variable friction coefficient of the system which is in the brakes themselves. If you apply too much brake, then the fixed coefficient of friction between the tire and road is overcome by the variable coefficient of friction between the shoes and pads, and the car skids. Since the coeficient of friction in the braking system is variable and is controlled by the pedal pressure, by changing the relative braking capacity between the front and rear brakes will change the distribution of braking force and also the weight transfer. The same thing happens when you change the proportioning valve for instance. More pressure to the rears, less dive (provided the rear brakes are big enough to do the job and you don't push them to the point of locking up). There will always be weight transfer towards the fron, even if you are applying all of the braking force at the rears. The point is, there is less weight transfer (as well as less stopping ability) by using only the rears.

(This sounds like the Unibomber wrote it hugh!)

It's too early, my head hurts..... I like to think of the vehicle as a lever. Apply the brakes in the front only and all that weight will try to pivot around the axle centerline. Apply both brakes and that centerline moves back somewhere between the axles assuming both brakes are doing 50% of the work.

Another advantage to the S/R is the way it climbs tall obstacles. Watch a rig with a missing link up front try and climb a boulder that is higher than the centerline of the front tire. First thing that happens is you push the tire into the rock, the link starts to open and the spring gets bowed downward and the wheel wants to get pulled down. It's ugly when it happens, trust me. With a S/R the spring flattens and the wheel goes up (helpful when you climbing huh?).

Originally posted by scwafish

Ever ride a motorcycle??? Try the front brake....then try the rear brake...notice anything different? Which brake is being utilized makes a HUGE difference in weight transfer. Race car people spend a big part of their life trying to get it just right! Weight transfer is a MAJOR component of getting traction, and things like dive can be tweaked to be a benefit, it is not in and of itself a "bad thing"

Since we seem to really getting off on a tangent anyway. :)

This is still a geometry thing. The braking force is below and in front of the CG when the front brakes are applied. The CG wants to rotate "over" the front braking force.

In the rear, behind and below. You are turning the bicycle/motorcycle into a large lever arm in both cases but depending on where the braking force is applied the affect is different.

Think of the motorcycle this way: if the front brakes were designed such that the reacting breaking force was directly inline with the CG (100% anti-dive) the motorcycle would not want to flip over the forks - and you'd still have your full braking force and weight transfer - but the suspension wouldn't move. In theory you could also design the brakes/suspension that the front forks extended as braking force was applied (don't ask how - like Chris said - it's too early).

Motorcycle or car/truck - it is the same free body diagram.

Hmm, I need some aspirin...

Originally posted by zukiman


I've been really, really happy with my CSC shackle reversal. NO need for a panhard bar, awesome flex, and a super-smooth ride. I've seen Trail Tough's YJ kit and I really like it, bu tit's not a shackle reversal, which is part of the benefit to the CSC kit. But if you don't want a shackle reversal, the Trail Tough kit is definitely the way to go.

[...snip...]

I've worked all the bugs out of the system as it's currently set up, and I'm VERY happy with it.

-- Geoff

So basically you are saying that the kit has problems but you have the skills to correct them?

Sorry, couldn't resist. :)

Does this mean the CSC kit is not a good kit for newbies?

In theory you could also design the brakes/suspension that the front forks extended as braking force was applied (don't ask how - like Chris said - it's too early).

Yep. We made mechanical antidives for F1 bikes using a free floating brake caliper on a lever to the frame.

in both cases but depending on where the braking force is applied the affect is different

Exactly...the origin of the force is important.

Originally posted by Root Moose


So basically you are saying that the kit has problems but you have the skills to correct them?

Sorry, couldn't resist. :)

Does this mean the CSC kit is not a good kit for newbies?

ok, Bullwinkle...oops sorry, couldn't resist. ;)

last time I talked to Jimmy from CSC...Fred was toast...nadda....no more! but Jimmy was/has been making the kits Custom....no more batch orders.......he lost the patterns for a while when the company doing the cutting split up and those guys went to another shop....

so along with his day job..he is doing them once in a while....

he makes the bolt on kit....it is great straight out of the box for a new guy.....some people like Geoff have weight issues..and need put on a diet...lol

the YJ s/r was soooooo much in demand....we had to find some one to fab something close without stepping on Jimmy's toes....or copy his suspension....Brent didn't like s/r.....so he makes a non-s/r kit...we love s/r......for these AZ trails....so we had some fabed weld on......and a few other small changes.....

it still works great....and comes with everything....even the drivelines......

Originally posted by Root Moose


So basically you are saying that the kit has problems but you have the skills to correct them?

Sorry, couldn't resist. :)

Does this mean the CSC kit is not a good kit for newbies?

I haven't really noticed any problems with this kit myself. I never ran with missing links so I can't compare it with them. It tracks straight on the highway and rides smooth (as smooth as you can expect with swampers).

I can drive upto a 30+ inch tall rock (or other vertical object) and climb up it with no problem. I haven't closely watched a missing link setup try this to compare how it does.

I currently run 5 leaf front and back and it does sit ass end low. I have extra leafs to change that back to the 6 leaf pack I was running for a short time to level things out like Geoff did. It also prevents putting the rear springs into a negative arch which will toast them over time. This setup is really flexy.

The only modification that would need to be done to this kit as it stands are to run more leafs in the rear so level it out. Also a traction bar in the rear would be helpful since the springs are so soft.

Originally posted by M.Martian


I haven't really noticed any problems with this kit myself. I never ran with missing links so I can't compare it with them. It tracks straight on the highway and rides smooth (as smooth as you can expect with swampers).

I can drive upto a 30+ inch tall rock (or other vertical object) and climb up it with no problem. I haven't closely watched a missing link setup try this to compare how it does.

I currently run 5 leaf front and back and it does sit ass end low. I have extra leafs to change that back to the 6 leaf pack I was running for a short time to level things out like Geoff did. It also prevents putting the rear springs into a negative arch which will toast them over time. This setup is really flexy.

The only modification that would need to be done to this kit as it stands are to run more leafs in the rear so level it out. Also a traction bar in the rear would be helpful since the springs are so soft.

All the lifts I have done on my Zuk looked ass end low. 4" SPUA, CJ SPOA then the JY. That big spare hanging off the passenger side doesn't help matters.....

all custom suspension systems require a significant amout of tweaking to get what you want out of them, if you want a turn key solution that works for every situation then dont be afraid to put your money where you mouth is and buy some purpose built rock buggies like the sniper, i'm sure they have handle great on the road..... :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Up the Road:beer:

HA Dave is this new kit on your website i hav'nt seen it

dave answered my own guestiom Just checked out your new site..It looks great

Originally posted by zukiman

As for the problems you mention, Wayne, I believe that's based on what you saw of the kit on my Zuk at Hollister? I've fixed all of those problems. Well not all; the front driveshaft is required, but it's something that really should be upgraded on any serious rig anyways.


The stock driveshaft is fine for a mild lift, right? Only a problem for flex SPOA with missing link rigs, right?

That and spring wrap in the rear (which seems possible with anything and traction bars aren't that expensive...) are the biggest issues with the CSC YJ SR?