the project is close to completion, so I guess it's ok to share some pics...:D

this is what happens when the SNORT boys (S&N Fab) get their hands on a TJ whose owner agrees with all of their crazy ideas:

http://www.snort4x4.com/~neckster/snfab/brett/roundy015.JPG
http://www.snort4x4.com/~neckster/snfab/brett/roundy014.JPG
http://www.snort4x4.com/~neckster/snfab/brett/roundy017.JPG
http://www.snort4x4.com/~neckster/snfab/brett/roundy032.JPG
http://www.snort4x4.com/~neckster/snfab/brett/roundy028.JPG
http://www.snort4x4.com/~neckster/snfab/brett/roundy031.JPG
http://www.snort4x4.com/~neckster/snfab/brett/roundy041.JPG

more pics and details at:
http://www.snort4x4.com/~neckster/snfab/brett/

Very nice! :eek:

What was your resoning for placing the rear coilovers inward if there were going to be holes cut anyway?
The reson I ask is that I have noticed that on kit (black diamond /warn coilkit) they place there spring inward and from what I have noticed on steep hill climbs viehicals become unsable. causing rollovers in some cases.

What are you talking about! Inward to a certain degree is better! That looks really nice! That rear three link has some weird link placement though. Nice work, for a jeep!:p

Why are inward mount coilovers better other than looks?

Why are inward mount coilovers better other than looks?

-did'nt say in was' nt nice work just a question.

Originally posted by homegrowntoy
Why are inward mount coilovers better other than looks?

-did'nt say in was' nt nice work just a question.


The lower coil mount is the same width as the frame. If I ran them strait up I would have had to cut the frame off. as the suspension cycles the shock moves outward a bit and clears the stock arch in the frame. the goal was not GOBS of travel, but stability and predictability to create a very even/balanced suspension.

Looks good Snot heads. :D:flipoff2: :D
.
.
.
.
When will it be done so we can see some action pics?

ya gonna post this in EVERY forum?:flipoff2:

Originally posted by SNORTclown



The lower coil mount is the same width as the frame. If I ran them strait up I would have had to cut the frame off. as the suspension cycles the shock moves outward a bit and clears the stock arch in the frame. the goal was not GOBS of travel, but stability and predictability to create a very even/balanced suspension.

I have a question for ya Shortclown: since you went inboard
of the frame and angled the shocks together toward the tops
to clear the inner frame rails when articulated, is this axle a
stock width TJ? How wide would you say an axle would have
to be before you go outboard of the frame rails and only*
slightly taper inward at the tops and still clear the frame/tires
when it twists up??

thanks for your time, if you get time that is..... NIce work!

--Sherpa

Them freak S&N FAB dudes are stright up sick,.... sick in the head I tell ya!!!!

....and very Creative!!! I LIKE!!!

looks like it's time for a bigger garage..i'm thinkin you guys are gonna be very busy doin that kinda trick work!!

Angling the shocks inward helps with anti-roll much like a anti-sway bar. As the axle articulates the movement becomes more perpendicular to the axis of the shock. Its benefit will mostly be felt on the street or other high speed manuvers.

Originally posted by Cutter
ya gonna post this in EVERY forum?:flipoff2:

I just might...can you blame me? ? ? :D :D :D

Angling the shocks inward helps with anti-roll much like a anti-sway bar. As the axle articulates the movement becomes more perpendicular to the axis of the shock. Its benefit will mostly be felt on the street or other high speed manuvers.

Actually, it is quite the opposite. Angling them in gives the shock less leverage on the vehicle and results in very little roll resistance which will cause it to lean heavily in any type of turn.

Have you driven the rig yet? It definately looks good, nice fab work. Those are some long shocks! Nice to see more TJ's with coilover setups! I ran into the same problem on my Jeep when I did the rear shocks. I hated having them angled in so I decided to build a new frame and replace the rear wheel wells with square ones from a YJ...this will allow me to run the shocks vertical in the back.

If you haven't driven it yet, I think your going to find out that the rear suspension roll resistance is a lot less than the front(especially if you plan on using the anti-rock). What happens is the rear will flex completely out before the front even starts to move. I tried to combat this with stiffer springs but it pushed the ride height up so high that it basically was impossible to equal the suspensions with just the spring selection. I don't know if yours is going to act like mine did but I'd guess that it will be similar, but probably not as bad. What I did was mounted a rear swaybar on mine and the difference is incredible. Both suspensions work equally as much now.

Avalanche built a TJ with coilovers but the frame mounts were quite a bit further apart, so I think that's how they comabted that.

Here are two shots which show the difference the rear swaybar made on mine:
Before:
http://admotorsports.com/jeep.org/cjl-tj/old-misc/P1010058.JPG
After:
http://admotorsports.com/jeep.org/cjl-tj/old-stuff/nov-01/P1010004.JPG

You can tell in the pics that even though the rear flexes about the same with or without the rear swaybar, the front changes drastically. In the before pic if I tried to drive any further up the ramp the rear would just lift the tire and the front wouldn't do anything. Trail performance is two times improved easily and stability increased by 100% :P.

Anyway, maybe you won't have this problem

Good luck,
CJ

I agree with CJ all the way! I say move the antirock to the back to combat that crazy angle. I plane to use a swaybar on my rear leafs because they are very soft and i think I will get more flex with swaybar then with stiffer springs. Also I will get a cadalac like street ride.

Originally posted by 664n668


I just might...can you blame me? ? ? :D :D :D
Hell no! thats a sweet ride....now if ya had built it yerself....:flipoff2:

The rear angle does not look taht steep to me but then I am not speaking from experiance so I will shut up about that.

some of the work looks like you could use more practice so I will bring my Bronco rite up for a freebie ;) J?K looks sweet how much longer?

that was my question since a few people I know have warn coil kit on there jeeps and seem to get alot of body roll.

since there is a 63in axle in the rear is there enough room to fit the coilovers outboard?

When you post here you know you're going to get blunt opinions, not just a lot of attaboys, right?

Love the cage work
Links look interesting
LOVE the front hoops - especially the thru-hood look - that's
commitment
Hate the rear angle - looks awful, I think you're going to hate that! I dunno for sure of course, but I've followed and studied a lot of setups, and I think yours is too close at the top. I followed CJ Lagos buildup....he's being nice with his comments, but what i think he's saying is "That is likely to suck, and I know because I've BTDT". Just my mostly worthless opinion,,,but that's what you wanted when you posted right? :flipoff2:

Originally posted by BillaVista
When you post here you know you're going to get blunt opinions, not just a lot of attaboys, right?

Love the cage work
Links look interesting
LOVE the front hoops - especially the thru-hood look - that's
commitment
Hate the rear angle - looks awful, I think you're going to hate that! I dunno for sure of course, but I've followed and studied a lot of setups, and I think yours is too close at the top. I followed CJ Lagos buildup....he's being nice with his comments, but what i think he's saying is "That is likely to suck, and I know because I've BTDT". Just my mostly worthless opinion,,,but that's what you wanted when you posted right? :flipoff2:

shit...I'd rather have 1 person tell me that it's fu#cked up, and be able to explain why, than have 200 sheeple saying "Cool dude"...

I'd be suprised if it's as bad as you think it will be...Bob Roggy set up the shocks knowing what the application was going to be...but if it is we have a contingency plan...Jason has an idea for sneaking an AntiRock into the rear suspension set-up if need be...we won't know till it's driven though, but I think it'll be fine :D

DAMN!!


thats the nicest looking planter I've EVER seen :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by 664n668


shit...I'd rather have 1 person tell me that it's fu#cked up, and be able to explain why, than have 200 sheeple saying "Cool dude"...

I'd be suprised if it's as bad as you think it will be...Bob Roggy set up the shocks knowing what the application was going to be...but if it is we have a contingency plan...Jason has an idea for sneaking an AntiRock into the rear suspension set-up if need be...we won't know till it's driven though, but I think it'll be fine :D

DAMN glad to see we got some newbies with the right attitude. Your not here just to boost your ego but you actually want to build a better vehicle. I wish I had the cash/insanity to cut up a rig like that (I prefer to start with a beat to piss rig so it hurts less to replace everything)

Originally posted by RustoleumWhite
DAMN!!


thats the nicest looking planter I've EVER seen :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Hey Mark...:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

...I wonder how my planter would look on top of that big white box of yours...

Looks really good but one observation:

Why the fawk would you go to all the trouble of building a long travel suspension like that to limit it with a fawkin Currie Anti-Rock ?

DS

Originally posted by DippStick
Looks really good but one observation:

Why the fawk would you go to all the trouble of building a long travel suspension like that to limit it with a fawkin Currie Anti-Rock ?

DS

ummmm...because it's still going to be a daily driver (my only restriction on S&N's creativity)...and because you can always unbolt the AntiRock in about 1/2 a minute...:D :D :D

That is a bad ass daily driver! I thought you said they've had it since October? :P

I think Billa mis took what I meant...I was just telling what happened to me, I hope yours works that way it is because it was a pain in the ass figuring all that crap out.

CJ

Oh by the way, are you just ditching the top?

CJ

Nice triangulated lowers and upper wishbone:D Glad to see you guys studying up on the suspension engineering. Nuttzack, why other than clearance would you want to have any shock placed inward?

Originally posted by CJ Lagos
That is a bad ass daily driver! I thought you said they've had it since October? :P

I think Billa mis took what I meant...I was just telling what happened to me, I hope yours works that way it is because it was a pain in the ass figuring all that crap out.

CJ

yeah...I've been driving my 72 F-250 POS for the last 4 months...can you say 'Redneck'?...

and I really appreciate the info...gives us an idea of what to do if we end up in the same spot...

Originally posted by CJ Lagos
Oh by the way, are you just ditching the top?

CJ

Jason claims that he's figured out a way to attach the surrounds to the new cage...and the hardtop should fit fine...

can't be without a top up here in the Seattle area...

I LOVE THE THOUGHT THAT WENT THROUGH YOUR SUPENSION BUT AS O DAILY DRIVER ON THE WEST COAST WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO FOR THE HOLE IN YOUR FLOOR ? RUST WILL KICK IN HARD AND FAST.:usa: :usa:

I just don't see how the soft top frame can fold up in down with the way the rollcage is...maybe I'm wrong. Hey if you need my old swaybar I can let it go cheap :P

CJ

Originally posted by APRIL'S RAINMAN
I LOVE THE THOUGHT THAT WENT THROUGH YOUR SUPENSION BUT AS O DAILY DRIVER ON THE WEST COAST WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO FOR THE HOLE IN YOUR FLOOR ? RUST WILL KICK IN HARD AND FAST.:usa: :usa:

I'm still trying to figure out how to seal those holes in a way that the coilovers are still visible (gotta see the coilovers) but carbon monoxide and road noise are mostly eliminated...any thoughts?

I THINK I WOULD START WITH RHINO LINE YOUR JEEP FLOOR (BEST STUFF MADE) MAKE SOME KIND OF RUBBER BOOT TO SLIDE OVER THE COIL OVERS LIKE A SHIFTER BOOT. ..JUST MY .02 ..BUT LOVE THE WORK IT TAKES BALLS TO CUT UP A NEW RIG . I HAVE BEEN WANTING TO DO THE SAME TO THE REAR ON MY TACOMA BUT STOP AT THE THOUGHT OF CUTTING UP MY BED I'M HEADED TO ALASKA THIS WINTER AND I DON'T WANT TO START FIGHTING RUST ON A 2000 TACOMA YET .:usa:

Maybe you could run some kind of flexible boot at the base of the floor board or build a plexi-glass case so you can see the coil-overs like you want but ellimate the weather/jeep elements. I'd be curious to see how the suspension cycles and how it does for hill climbs and off camber sidehilling. Pictures say very little so I won't form any opinions off them other than to say it's always nice to see some new blood in the breed. Great job guys and I know you'll figure out any problems that may reside therein.
:)

Originally posted by CJ Lagos
I just don't see how the soft top frame can fold up in down with the way the rollcage is...maybe I'm wrong. Hey if you need my old swaybar I can let it go cheap :P

CJ


The cage is similar in dementions as the stock cage with one of those add on front cage thingies. the only mod I should have to make is to the door surrounds. the rest of the soft top bracketry should attach to the cage same as stock. As for the suspension. If there is a problem with it we can add a sway bar. But it is sprung quite stiff already and with 200 PSI in the shocks I think it will be fine. We shall see. :) Some one asked about closing up the holes in the floor..... The answer is alot of spray foam and duct tape. :flipoff2: actually a custom canvas boot to go around the shock top with elastic and the lower half designed to poprivet to the floor. should be quite easy just a matter of having them made.

Originally posted by Goat Boy
Nice triangulated lowers and upper wishbone:D Glad to see you guys studying up on the suspension engineering.

Oh how did I know You would notice!:D :flipoff2: with the space limitation I could not have rear steer and I needed the pinion to point at the t-case at all times. So I configured the links to do so. What else was I to do! :p ;) :D

Originally posted by SNORTclown


Oh how did I know You would notice!:D :flipoff2: with the space limitation I could not have rear steer and I needed the pinion to point at the t-case at all times. So I configured the links to do so. What else was I to do! :p ;) :D

yeah...what the hell do you know :flipoff2: :D :flipoff2:

Originally posted by SNORTclown


Oh how did I know You would notice!:D :flipoff2: with the space limitation I could not have rear steer and I needed the pinion to point at the t-case at all times. So I configured the links to do so. What else was I to do! :p ;) :D

lol......

Originally posted by 664n668


Jason has an idea for sneaking an AntiRock into the rear suspension set-up if need be...we won't know till it's driven though, but I think it'll be fine :D

We just made Currie a few 44" antirock bars that should fit outside most Jeep frames. Give John Currie a call if you are interested.

"and because you can always unbolt the AntiRock in about 1/2 a minute... "


True, but that's not a quick disconnect by any stretch of the imagination ;)

I've had much more fun wheeling my TJ since I got rid of the AR and disconnect the rear Adco swaybar at the trail head.

For the daily driver portion of it, you can do much better than the AR using a 1.25" solid Adco front swaybar and JKS disco's.
You can get these from Nick Kolak (kolak@aol.com).

Are you running a rear swaybar on the street ?
I had to go back to using one with the Detroit since it rear-steered like fawk. Maybe your 4-link gets rid of both the trackbar and the need for a rear swaybar ?

DS

Hey Goat1,

What diameter are the Currie swaybars? That is what I did on mine, ran it outside of the frame rail.

Snort,

I don't think the 200psi helps that much in terms of roll resistance...what springs are you using? In term sof the soft top, the bottom bar running straight back looks like it would be in the way.

CJ

Hey GOAT1, thanks for the tip!

DippStick, we haven't planned on running a rear swaybar, but we really won't know until it's driven...hopefully in about a week or so...and the rear geometry should virtually eliminate rear-steer...

CJ Lagos, Jason will have to tell you what spring rates we're running...I used to know, but the old brain cells ain't what they used to be...and the top should fit fine, there's more room for it than it looks like in the pics...

I couldn't find any good shots of the front suspension, but it appears that your using a similar setup that Coby Hughey first brought to attention. One fixed link, and the other "Wristed". It appears that you have the wristed side next to the driverside pumpkin. Is that correct? I hope not.

If so, why?

Originally posted by bwickert
I couldn't find any good shots of the front suspension, but it appears that your using a similar setup that Coby Hughey first brought to attention. One fixed link, and the other "Wristed". It appears that you have the wristed side next to the driverside pumpkin. Is that correct? I hope not.

If so, why?


The front is a fixed (kinda) radius arm on the passanger side and a free link on the drivers side. This is not the first with this design. I have done a few this way(way before Ol coby came along). It is in no way a problem. had this not been a daily driver I may have opted for a wishbone front. but since it is, It gets a 3 link with panhard rod. or more like a 2 link. It has a closer resembelence to the RE long arms in front. It is not close to the drivers side diff. but angles inward towards the center a bit because it offerd better clearences with the taller tower I wanted. Unlike the RE front I'm using only one side to control Wrap I wanted a larger distance between the upper and lower portion of the arm where it attaches to the front axel so it would give better wrap control. yet should allow a very free moving suspension.:emb:

"It appears that you have the wristed side next to the driverside pumpkin. Is that correct? I hope not."

why do you say this? I have been doing link suspensions for about 7 years. I see no reason this will cause a problem. I did not just pull the design out my keester. I have it working on other rigs.
:confused: do you see a potential problem? if so where? or have you sen a problem with a similar design?

Originally posted by 664n668


CJ Lagos, Jason will have to tell you what spring rates we're running...I used to know, but the old brain cells ain't what they used to be...and the top should fit fine, there's more room for it than it looks like in the pics...


Spring rates are
250/375 front
225/350 rear

Originally posted by NE-RokToy
I agree with CJ all the way! I say move the antirock to the back to combat that crazy angle. I plane to use a swaybar on my rear leafs because they are very soft and i think I will get more flex with swaybar then with stiffer springs. Also I will get a cadalac like street ride.


who the hell runs a front sway bar on a tj

Rear Rear Rear babby


Nice fab work boys

EDIT: oops I qouted the wrong guy ....yeah rok toy you got the idea!!!

It's not a major issue, but on our EB's we put the rigid arm on the same side as the pumpkin. This way the pinion/driveshaft keep better alignment. With the hinged arm on the same side as the diff, the pinion angles down on extension, or extra high on compression.

Probably a bigger issue if your pinion/driveshaft angle are crappy to begin with.

Like I said before, I couldn't really make out the front suspension, so I may be way off here.

Originally posted by bwickert
It's not a major issue, but on our EB's we put the rigid arm on the same side as the pumpkin. This way the pinion/driveshaft keep better alignment. With the hinged arm on the same side as the diff, the pinion angles down on extension, or extra high on compression.

Probably a bigger issue if your pinion/driveshaft angle are crappy to begin with.

Like I said before, I couldn't really make out the front suspension, so I may be way off here.

Ahh ok. Well I have cycled the suspension with shocks off moving it way more than the shocks will ever allow with the driveline attached.... No problems whatsoever..... and you forget this is a HEEP not an EB so the front driveshaft is about 16 and a half feet long!:D glad to have the input though.:smokin:

And now for the real question:

Did Brett have to get dirty? :D :flipoff2: :D

Nice jeep, and nice work.

-J

Originally posted by xBabyJesus
And now for the real question:

Did Brett have to get dirty? :D :flipoff2: :D

Nice jeep, and nice work.

-J

I think it's safe to say that I got dirtier building my heep than you did buying yours :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by 664n668


I think it's safe to say that I got dirtier building my heep than you did buying yours :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:


BWAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA OMG!! ROFLMAO!

That wasn't very nice now Brett.:flipoff2:

Originally posted by NECKSTER



BWAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA OMG!! ROFLMAO!

That wasn't very nice now Brett.:flipoff2:

sorry Trevor...did I tarnish the hard earned goody-goody image of the SNORT boys? ? ? :D :D :D

No, I just don't want you scaring off potential customers. LOL!!:D

snortclown! just take the complement! It's nice to know that the suspension was thought about before just trial and error approach was attempted.:smokin:

So thaaaats what that TJ was in the shop for. And here I thought it was just a coat rack. :)

Originally posted by 664n668


Hey Mark...:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

...I wonder how my planter would look on top of that big white box of yours...

I don't know.... the white box has been getting taller lately......



besides.... I really don't what to know what would be produced if a Jeep got on a Scout...... the offspring would probably look like Toyota's......:barf: :barf: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by 664n668


I think it's safe to say that I got dirtier building my heep than you did buying yours :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Sure, buying it was easy. Rebuilding the front end, tearing both ends down twice, all the servicing, upgrades, re-wiring and various other CRAP I've done so far... I've switched cologne, now officially a wearer of 90w :D

Front end comes apart tomorrow again :mad:

As always...... NICE WORK!!