I'm past the point of no return, having cut off the front frame horns this morning. By this weekend I'll have the front framework complete and can then slip the Dana 60 under the truck to get a feel for how the pinion angle and kingpin angles will need to be changed. I'm using some 88 rear springs, the lighter duty version that still have some life in them, so it'll be interesting to see how the truck sits after I get the winch reinstalled. I'm hoping that I get a decent ride height with them, otherwise I'll be having Alcan make custom springs. I want to end up with a ride height very close to what it was with new parabolics installed.

I know that there has been some interest in spring-overs on the board in the past so I'll post up when I get some pictures loaded.

Lonn

I think you will be pleased with the end result. I think it will be hard to get your ride height down to an inch of lift without a negative arch to the springs . . .

-Ike

PS: how well does your truck cool with that high mounted 8274 in front of the relatively small SIIA grill?

I think you will be pleased with the end result. I think it will be hard to get your ride height down to an inch of lift without a negative arch to the springs . . .

-Ike

PS: how well does your truck cool with that high mounted 8274 in front of the relatively small SIIA grill?

Just curious, as I have always been a coiler, but what length and with are the series springs? 48" x 2 or 2.5? Seriously, I have an idea if they are.

j

how well does your truck cool with that high mounted 8274 in front of the relatively small SIIA grill?

I'm running a Ron Davis Racing aluminum crossflow radiator that is fully shrouded and have no trouble on the trail. It'll occasionally hit 230F but I find that if I engage the fast-idle selenoid it drops pretty quicky.

Lonn, I'm getting ready to do the same thing. Probably start after Christmas. I don't have a DANA 60 front though. I'd love to see some pics. What gearing are you using in the diffs?

Dan

Lonn,
can't wait to see the results. Good luck with it.
Pete

Just curious, as I have always been a coiler, but what length and with are the series springs? 48" x 2 or 2.5? Seriously, I have an idea if they are.

Just noticed that nobody has answered you. The spring is about 48 inches when compressed and is 2 1/2" wide. What do you have in mind?

This photo is after extending the frame using 3x4x1/8 tube. The extension will be finished with 1/8 inch plate as original. The 2x4 is approximating the final position of the rear of the springs after the civvy shackles are installed. I'm using the military front mounting position. The spring in the photo is installed without the bottom two leaves. I'll probably have to use the full spring pack to compensate for the weight of the 8274. As it is now it lifts the truck two inches over the military parabolic height. I can live with that. I extended the front mounts by 7 inches to move the axle forward by 1 inch, so I'm now a 110. It was the only way to run 37s without interferring with the front rollcage outriggers. With the addition of cutting brakes I should still get around in the tight spots just as well as I ever did.

http://www.hoopsbodyarts.com/109/L_SOA_mockup.jpg

I'll post up a link to the in-process photos when I finally get them all up.

Just noticed that nobody has answered you. The spring is about 48 inches when compressed and is 2 1/2" wide. What do you have in mind?


I found that IH front pickup springs are 48" no weight, and are 2.5 width. 1 plus four height. They were spring over stock, and give about 4~5 inches arch from the locator pin to the eye when on my 1 ton IH, which has about 1.5k on the front axle.

Oh, and they are military wrap, and 30.00 each at a yard I know. Just fyi
j

I found that IH front pickup springs are 48" no weight, and are 2.5 width. 1 plus four height. They were spring over stock, and give about 4~5 inches arch from the locator pin to the eye when on my 1 ton IH, which has about 1.5k on the front axle.

Oh, and they are military wrap, and 30.00 each at a yard I know. Just fyi.

That's good to know. In my case I'm looking for the spring to sit nearly flat when loaded so I don't end up with one of those goofy looking lifted trucks that you need a ladder to get into and that get tippy on anything more than the crown in the road. Gawd I hate those trucks.

Lonn

Looking good, can't wait to see the next pics.

Just a few photos to detail the process I used to extend the frame horns. It's still not finished, as a wrap of 1/8" plate will be added.
http://www.hoopsbodyarts.com/109/l_img_0326.jpg
http://www.hoopsbodyarts.com/109/l_img_0328.jpg
http://www.hoopsbodyarts.com/109/l_img_0331.jpg
http://www.hoopsbodyarts.com/109/l_img_0332.jpg
http://www.hoopsbodyarts.com/109/l_img_0333.jpg
http://www.hoopsbodyarts.com/109/l_img_0336.jpg
http://www.hoopsbodyarts.com/109/l_img_0347.jpg
http://www.hoopsbodyarts.com/109/l_img_0349.jpg

I'm interested in seeing how the Dana 60 fits. I'm getting started on similar mod but the problem I have is I've got full width axles. The right side spring mount is right on the side of the pumpkin. How are you handling that? Are you narrowing the axle by just cutting down the long side a bit so you don't have to shift the springs to the outside of the frame?

Dan

I'm interested in seeing how the Dana 60 fits. How are you handling that? Are you narrowing the axle by just cutting down the long side a bit so you don't have to shift the springs to the outside of the frame?

I'm machining the spring pad to rotate the pinion up and shortening both sides. The WMS to WMS will be 1 inch wider than stock due to the limitation of shortening the short side but with the rear disk conversion on the Salisbury it will be a perfect match.

If you only cut down the long side you'd have to nearly center the pumpkin to keep the track width close to stock. I didn't want the clearance issues with a centered pumpkin. By using the cast-in spring perch the pinion and LT230T align nearly perfectly on my rig and the driveline doesn't interfere with the sump.

Lonn

These are the finish steps of the frame extension. In the first two photos you can see the bottom strap tacked in place.
http://www.hoopsbodyarts.com/109/l_img_0351.jpg

http://www.hoopsbodyarts.com/109/l_img_0355.jpg

And with the plate on the sides I'm all but finished. I know my welds may look like crap but I've never had one fail. Knock on wood...
http://www.hoopsbodyarts.com/109/l_img_0357.jpg

Looks really good but arn't you worried about the hangers being that far foreword and hanging so low?

Looking good Lonn.

As to hanger location, with a leaf the hanger isn't low/hi. Where ever it is, the spring attaches. By 'lowering' the hanger you lift the vehicle.
With the stock short front leafs and 36" tires you cant hardly see the front hangers. Almost 90* approach angle with out the bumper.
The longer front springs do mean you need to put the perches further out front, but the benifits will far outway any problems.

I'm machining the spring pad to rotate the pinion up and shortening both sides. The WMS to WMS will be 1 inch wider than stock due to the limitation of shortening the short side but with the rear disk conversion on the Salisbury it will be a perfect match.
Lonn

That makes sense. I'm planning on just shortening the long side a bit and going with a wider track. I'm trying to avoid having to have too many custom parts made.

Dan

Looks really good but arn't you worried about the hangers being that far foreword and hanging so low?

The hanger-to-ground measurement hasn't changed, it's only been pushed forward. The military hanger does drop 1 1/2" below the civilian height but I need to use the lower mounting hole to help rotate the pinion up. With a spring-over the springs are much higher relative to the axle tube so it won't be an issue. Even with flat springs I'll get at least a 2" chassis lift so my approach angle will be about the same. It's the departure angle us 109ers have to be concerned about. If I didn't have such comfy sleeping arrangements in the back of my truck I'd coil the rear and bob the tail. Never gonna happen. I like my 109, uh, I mean 110.

It's the departure angle us 109ers have to be concerned about. If I didn't have such comfy sleeping arrangements in the back of my truck I'd coil the rear and bob the tail. Never gonna happen. I like my 109, uh, I mean 110.

I know what you mean there but I'm bobbing the tail on my 109 anyway. I'm planning on keeping the wheel base but getting rid of the rear overhang.

Dan

I know what you mean there but I'm bobbing the tail on my 109 anyway. I'm planning on keeping the wheel base but getting rid of the rear overhang.

Dan

I have similar thoughts. I am going to be stretching my 88. I am looking at a 104-106WB. Cut down a 109 tub and a custom fame.
I sleep in the 88 already so any extra is all good. :D
Pete

I know of someone who found a creative way of sleeping in a D90. He lays a cot front to back from the dash over the passenger seat, which gets folded down, and on to the back of the tub.

Dan

You can gain an additional 5 or more degrees of departure angle on a 109 without losing rear tub length by cutting and rewelding the rear crossmember back on at an angle of 45 degrees from vertical.
Bill.

You can gain an additional 5 or more degrees of departure angle on a 109 without losing rear tub length by cutting and rewelding the rear crossmember back on at an angle of 45 degrees from vertical.
Bill.

That's true, I never thought about that. The angled cross member could have other benefits too.

Dan

You can gain an additional 5 or more degrees of departure angle on a 109 without losing rear tub length by cutting and rewelding the rear crossmember back on at an angle of 45 degrees from vertical.
Bill.

Good idea but not if you have your fuel tank there! that where mine is! I would have to relocate the tank to the interior of the vehicle or make it very small.... also a rear winch will have to be mounted higher or elsewhere.

Now back to the post, i am planning the a similar project but i will stop at fitting the rear springs to the front, soa is not a viable option for me. I am planning of using rear paras in the front and maybe mount a set of revolver shakles...... but that will come at a later stage, i will make longer shock mounts up into the mudgaurds or fenders to use all the available travel the rear springs will provide.

I am following this post with great interest......

Keep up the good work.

Grem

I slacked a bit over the holidays but I'm back on track now. The next step was to install new bushing mounts in the frame. Since I had moved the front spring hanger 7 inches forward I needed to move the rear mount back by 5 inches to accomodate the longer springs. Tube stock isn't readily available with an ID of 1.885" or anything close so I had them machined out of DOM. The ID ended up closer to 1.875" which negates the possibility of using stock LR bushings, so I opted for poly bushings. The finished pieces ended up with an ID of 1 3/16", OD of 1 11/16", and length of 3 1/2" even though I had specified 1.885", 1 3/4", and 3 1/4". I'll use another machine shop in the future... good work isn't cheap and cheap work isn't good. The chopsaw fixed the length and a little searching yielded a 1 11/16" hole saw.

Since I am going to install a Dana 60 rather than a stock Rover axle I was able to take some liberty as to placement of the bushing mount. I didn't have to maintain stock spring angles since the pinion angle and castor angles will both be changed. Owing to an extra bulkhead outrigger and a change from military to civilian shackle length I opted to place the bushing mount slightly lower than the stock location. If you were going to use a stock Rover axle you would need to keep the mount at the same height.

http://hoopsbodyarts.com/109/l_img_0395.jpg

With the springs mounted I put the axle housing in place and dropped the full weight on it. By using a jack under the pinion I was able to rotate the pinion to find optimal placement to allow the use of a double Cardin driveshaft. The cast-in spring pad needs to be machined 10 degrees to point the pinion 1 degree above the transfer case output. Castor angle will be corrected to compensate for the 3 degree rearward slope of the static spring perch when under normal load.

http://hoopsbodyarts.com/109/l_img_0396.jpg

http://hoopsbodyarts.com/109/l_img_0389.jpg

As you can see I will have to limit the upward travel to avoid severely reversing the spring arch. Limit straps will probably be required as well.

I'm hoping to get to Dutchman's tomorrow to have them make the housing mods and shorten the axle shafts. To keep the width as close as possible to stock they will shorten the short side by 4" and the long side by 7" to yield a width 1" wider than stock.

Next will be axle assembly and steering linkage setup. I'm going to wait on crossmember modification and shock placement until everything is functional and I can ramp the truck to determine limits.

Later,
Lonn

Lon, its pissing down this morning and I cannot be bothered going outside to measure my stock series 2, but your photo suggests to me that your ride height will be at least 5 inches above stock civilian height.
For some reason the general consensus among truck builders is, to maintain stability, if you go up 1 inch you should go out 2 inches. I think you are being too conservative making the axle only about 1 inch wider than stock.For reasons of correct geometry it is generally always preferable that increased track width is gained at the axle rather than increased wheel offsets. I would hate to know that you went to all that work only to find that you have built a tippy unweildy truck.
regards Bill.

Lon, its pissing down this morning and I cannot be bothered going outside to measure my stock series 2, but your photo suggests to me that your ride height will be at least 5 inches above stock civilian height.
For some reason the general consensus among truck builders is, to maintain stability, if you go up 1 inch you should go out 2 inches. I think you are being too conservative making the axle only about 1 inch wider than stock.For reasons of correct geometry it is generally always preferable that increased track width is gained at the axle rather than increased wheel offsets. I would hate to know that you went to all that work only to find that you have built a tippy unweildy truck.
regards Bill.

Bill,

Lonn runs very wide offset wheels and 35" tires. His track width is probably 10" wider than stock easily. On top of this, the actual ride height change will likely be around 3-4" as the springs sag quickly when sprung over. This is making me itch to get out of the office.

your photo suggests to me that your ride height will be at least 5 inches above stock civilian height.

You're not far off Bill. The military height is about 2 inches taller than civilian and it looks like it will gain another 2 inches with the spring over. J-L is right about my wheels, I'm running a 3.5" backset on a 10" wheel. I did this to improve the turning radius and to make the 35s fit when stuffed into the wings. I used to run AutoCAD and when I did my first build of the truck I ran everything through simulations to get everything right. I'm flying more seat of the pants now but I feel that with the extra track width I'll still have a stable side hiller. I've been toying with the idea of installing the set of airsprings that I took off my P38A to allow selectively airing up one side when sidehilling which would negate any problems caused by the lift, and could help with break-over and departure angles. I don't know... one thing at a time. Maybe I'll finally flop my truck and will have to go from NEVROVR to OVRONCE.

My other consideration in trying to keep a narrow track is that most of the trails around here are very narrow and a full-sized rig would never be able to negotiate them. If it just doesn't pan out I can always reconfigure for spring under and have Alcan make springs that'll work.

Lonn

Fair enough Lon. I keep forgetting that your vehicle modification laws in the USA are much more liberal than in AUS. We are not permitted to run 10 inch wide wheels. 8's are the legal limit and offset not to exceed 1'' more than widest factory option. Even 35'' tyres are not legal on most 4 bys except series 2 to3 Landeys which have always had a 9.00x16 factory option.
Bill.

OK its been 6 weeks. I assume that you have been too busy testing the vehicle to post any more updates. Soooooo, how's she drive/handle?
Pete

OK its been 6 weeks. I assume that you have been too busy testing the vehicle to post any more updates.
Pete
It's been longer than that now. I'm still waiting for the front end to be narrowed. I got pushed to the back of the pack since Dutchmans' bread and butter is the racing guys. I should have it the first week of April. It's OK with me as I've had other things to do with 4 new businesses in start-up mode.

We'll miss you at this year's Northwest Challenge Pete. Take care.

Lonn

Waaa Hoooo!!!! Derek at Dutchmans just called and my axles and housing are done!

I was afraid that my jackstands were going to bond to the frame at the molecular level, they've been under the truck for so long. Once I get the front hung then I can move on to modifying the back suspension. I may yet be able to hit the trails before summer.

>> I was afraid that my jackstands were going to bond to the frame at the molecular
>> level, they've been under the truck for so long.

no, that's left up to me :flipoff2: with any luck I'll be going in late April. we need to get our wheelin' in early this year - the summer fire threat is looking bad :(

glad to hear your axle casing is done - can't wait to see the beast when its done -

cheers,
-isaac

Lonn, I'm finally getting into doing something with my 109. Similar to what you've done. Do you have any final pics of how your's turned out?

Also for the rear shackle mount in the frame, did you simply weld the tube in or did you also do any reiforcing in the frame at that point?

Thanks, Dan

Hopefully he has subsribed to the thread, because "Last Activity: 03-24-2005 09:31 AM"

I know that work and life have kept him pretty busy, but I believe he was able to get the truck back on the road.

I know the feeling. As you can see the last I posted on this subject was two years ago. Did you ever stretch your 88"?

If you want springover pics, I can take some of the last couple I did.
-Ike

I know the feeling. As you can see the last I posted on this subject was two years ago. Did you ever stretch your 88"?

Work in progress

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=528907

We would love to see pics, Ike.

If you want springover pics, I can take some of the last couple I did.
-Ike

Yeah man, that would be great.

http://www.pangolin4x4.com/springover.jpg


This is on an ex mod 109 that Ive been helping a friend with. Strapped top and bottom, TIG welded. We just need to get the steering and so forth set up on those Fj60 axles. . .

ike,
what springs did you run front or rear? What would be the advantage of FJ60 axles over the mini truck axles? Looking good!

This is on an ex mod 109 that Ive been helping a friend with. Strapped top and bottom, TIG welded. We just need to get the steering and so forth set up on those Fj60 axles. . .

Pretty cool. What's the plan for the drag link?

Tydes - rear springs, these are wider than the mini truck axles, the housings are also burlier. I think the main reason he chose them was he was able to get a nice deal on them.


Peter - histeer to saginaw box w/ custom pitman arm. He has the box and weve done the pitman. He just needs to spring for the high steer arms he wants and materials to do the link itself. Its a budget build -> takes awhile.

ike,
thanks for the info, Sorry i was a little confusing on my question. YOu are just running, 109 rear springs in the front? Or are you harvesting those springs from something else. IN the back are those just still 109 springs?

88 rears in the front. The rear has 63inch chev springs

Ike, thanks for the pics. I'm going with different axles. D44 and D60. It's what I have on hand. I will be out boarding the front springs but otherwise similar to what you've done on the front end.

Just out of curiosity what did those 63" springs come out of?

1/2 ton chevy