I did a couple searchs and came up with a lot of hydraulic ram information pertaining to steering, but couldn't find anything on using a hydraulic ram to raise and lower one side of the axle. Tracy Jordon's competition rig runs a hydraulic ram in the place of a shock up front:

http://members.cox.net/cvillarreal10/DSCN8499.JPG

Anyone else tried this? I am assuming when the cylinder is not energized that it can float and act as a dampner. I am thinking about doing this on my Zuk, it seems like it would come in handy to level the vehicle as needed or to raise the front end to clear a ledge, etc. So any pros/cons. My rig is trailered so street manners aren't important.

If you want, I could photochop them onto your Zuk, too... :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Not only will it kickass on the trail.........
You will be the shit while cruising the westside. Can you say 3 wheel motion.:smokin:

I have thought about doing that, or running airbags to do the same thing. Airbags would be easier but rams would be better due to the ability to force compression as well droop. I love the idea of being able to level my rig out in all most any situation and being able to cross an off camber section that would tip my @ss over without leveling assist :)

I say go for it, you would also gain the unique ability to do a poser flex out shot without anything to flex on :laughing:

I am curious about this setup because most of the work is done in front, just pull the 9012 and replace it with the ram. I only got to watch it for a short while so I am wondering is there any potential downsides I'd see in the longterm? Lol, yeah Jack, that's another upside, when I get the beadlocked wire wheels I'd be :smokin:

Originally posted by Yota_san
If you want, I could photochop them onto your Zuk, too... :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

I'd like to see it with the rear end all tubed out too, get to work :D

For those who haven't seen the thread look here. (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30636)

I saw a rig down at the Womans ARCA this year. If I remember right it was a FJ-40 with a 2 tone paint sceem. Nice looking rig. Back to the point this rig was able to raise and lower all 4 corners but I think it was also sitting on coil springs.

Lance should know who it is cause the rig was used to help Lance's FJ get out of a bind when the front 44 blew up.

It seems to me that there would be zero dampening...And it would ride like it had no springs at all. Unless the rams had some ability to run up and down with little to no pressure, effectively creating a dampening effect. What am I missing?

Most of the rigs with this setup have the ability to disconnect the ram from the pump (I guess they have a way to hook the input and output together?) to make it into a rudimentary shock, then hook it back up to the pump and use it as a ram if they need to lift a tire to throw a rock under it or something.

If you couldn't disconnect it, you'd HAVE to move the axles to match the terrain with the cylinders, which would be fun to watch - but not very realistic.

Someone needs to come out with a 20" travel 2" ram with mounts for a coilover spring on it. Any volunteers?

:skull: :skull: :skull:

Originally posted by BIGSTIC
I saw a rig down at the Womans ARCA this year. If I remember right it was a FJ-40 with a 2 tone paint sceem. Nice looking rig. Back to the point this rig was able to raise and lower all 4 corners but I think it was also sitting on coil springs.

Lance should know who it is cause the rig was used to help Lance's FJ get out of a bind when the front 44 blew up.

That FJ was probably Don Robbins. Dark blue and purple right? The two rigs that have this setup are both here in AZ. We just don't sem to have any contacts for these guys.

Check out TwistedCustoms.com. It has alot of pix of the build up on the Jordan rig. No tech info though.

Originally posted by Yota_san
Most of the rigs with this setup have the ability to disconnect the ram from the pump (I guess they have a way to hook the input and output together?) to make it into a rudimentary shock, then hook it back up to the pump and use it as a ram if they need to lift a tire to throw a rock under it or something.

:skull: :skull: :skull:

Tracy's rig uses a 12v pump, so you could shut it off to relieve pressure when your in driving mode, then the fluid in the system acts as a dampner. You'd need both sides setup on their own circuit, this part I don't know how to do.

This Suzuki has airbag suspension click here (http://www.bc4x4.com/fv/2000/ben/ben.cfm)


http://www.bc4x4.com/fv/2000/ben/ben-21.jpg

Originally posted by JackA


That FJ was probably Don Robbins. Dark blue and purple right? The two rigs that have this setup are both here in AZ. We just don't sem to have any contacts for these guys.

Check out TwistedCustoms.com. It has alot of pix of the build up on the Jordan rig. No tech info though.

That would be the one.

I was just thinking and please tell me if this wouldn't work. So you take a Ram cylinder like on a dump truck except smaller. You know the ones that can be extended really far but shorten up real short and mount it inside a coil. This way the rig would ride on the coils until you wanted applied pressure to the axle with the cylinder. I don't think they make these kinds of cylinders that small but you never know.

Both Don Robbin's and Tracy Jordon's rigs have a float position in the spool valve.

more stuff to break

Hyd cyls don't have the holes in the piston that a shock has, so I would think it would ride hard as a rock. All the oil would have to go thru the hoses, seems like it would not be very responsive...
I drew up some plans for rigidly attaching a hyd cyl to the frame with the rod pointing up and attaching the top of a coilover to the end of the rod. Then you could extend the rod to raise the that wheel, or retract the rod to lower that wheel...

Then I remembered that I hate clutter, excess weight and reinventing the wheel, so I scrapped the plans..

Could you run both a shock and the ram, and just kill the pump when not in use and have the ram act as if it is not there?

Originally posted by Scrambled
Could you run both a shock and the ram, and just kill the pump when not in use and have the ram act as if it is not there?

I don't think you would want the ram to breath dusty trail air.

I know a lot about hydraulic suspensions (used to build lowriders,car dancers competion hoppers ect for people) you can by an accumlater, basicaly a nitrogen charged shock absorber which'll help smooth the ride out.
I've been contemplating putting hydraulic suspension in my sami but I tell you I really hate oil.Especially after building car suspensions for 6 or 7 years. Hydraulics leak. no and's if's about it.They all do eventually. If you don't mind that well they're great and can be very useful. Just watch how you run the hoses they don't like being rubbed. and they definetly could cause a real mess on the trail.

Originally posted by aaronlosey
more stuff to break

You must not have ever seen these rigs. They are some of the most badass ever. If the systems fails, it will be like a regular suspension. I have seen these rigs in action, they can do amazingly sick shit.:eek:

I saw a guy use ATV winches at all 4 corners to pull a wheel toward the frame. It was a pretty simple system and worked suprisingly well. The downside is that you can only pull (not push) but it did allow the suspention to work normally. He said it really helped keep things stable while side hilling or he could pull the front end down for climbing crazy angles. He was still getting used to it, but he was happy with it.

This is only my thought but I don't see how anyone could keep track of those things when they are in the middle of a rock garden. It would be awesome to have when you got stuck, or when sidehilling. But in the middle of a pile of rocks I don't see how they could move fast enuf to keep up. Even with marlin crawlers.

The other thing is I do believe it would be more stable on the road. It would be like having super stiff sway bars.

i remember seeing that the assasin has it but doesnt use it anymore because of the rules.
go look HERE (www.sierrarockcrawlers.com) on the SRC site. i know that one of them has a forced articulation rig

Originally posted by toymaniac
This is only my thought but I don't see how anyone could keep track of those things when they are in the middle of a rock garden. It would be awesome to have when you got stuck, or when sidehilling. But in the middle of a pile of rocks I don't see how they could move fast enuf to keep up. Even with marlin crawlers.

The other thing is I do believe it would be more stable on the road. It would be like having super stiff sway bars.

You'd think it would be impossible to control all that, but I watched Tracy walk thru sections of Armageddon in minutes that took the rest of us a half hour or more. He was driving, working the rear steer and cylinders on all four corners, and yeah, he used them. Rockpiles don't get much bigger than Armageddon, it was sweet.

Pook's comment is exact. Liquids don't compress. An accumulator has an air blatter that would allow some dampening otherwise it'll be as stiff as a $%^&(*. To do it right ain't cheep, ever seen Big Iron? Leaked like a SOB. Too many design issues.

The whole forced articulation seems like an awesome deal but it also seems like cheating? Sort of how I feel about rear steer. It's very cool but more of a band-aid for poor driving? And what is the fun in doing a rock garden in minutes?? I think going throught the whole thing in an hour our so would be much more enjoyable. Anyone else?

Originally posted by Weasel
The whole forced articulation seems like an awesome deal but it also seems like cheating? Sort of how I feel about rear steer. It's very cool but more of a band-aid for poor driving? And what is the fun in doing a rock garden in minutes?? I think going throught the whole thing in an hour our so would be much more enjoyable. Anyone else?

I cant help but disagree with ya.. With that mentality why do you bother modifying your rig at all because from what your saying anything that makes a rig handle the terrain easier is cheating. The way I see it the more capable your rig is the harder obstacles you need to be doing to keep yourself and your rig challenged, RIGHT?? :D

Ofcourse thats not to say i'm all for this suspension idea either but i'm all for people trying different things to push the envelope!

Rear steer is not cheeting, either is anything else you do to make things to work better. If that stuff is cheeting than you must run stock tires and no suspension lift. Sounds like it will take you 10 hours to get through A rock garden.

http://www.sierrarockcrawlers.com/images2/y0002.jpg http://www.sierrarockcrawlers.com/images2/y0001.jpg http://www.sierrarockcrawlers.com/images2/y0006.jpg

There are a few guys in Australia running hydraulic rams.

What they do is use the hydraulic ram as the top coil over mount. That way you still have damping etc but you have the ability to lower or raise each individual wheel.

There is a post in the landcruiser section with a pic of one of the trucks i am talking about.

www.homestead.com/offroadrig/files/uncutthumb09.jpg

here is a pic of the other one i know of.

(hope that works!!)

didnt work!

try again.

http://www.homestead.com/offroadrig/files/uncutthumb22.jpg

and another

http://www.homestead.com/offroadrig/files/uncutthumb09.jpg

side on
http://www.homestead.com/offroadrig/files/uncutthumb23.jpg

another way to acheive this wold be to run coils and you can slip a ram down into the coil with the top of the ram attached to the frame and the body of the ram attached to the top of the coil so when you extwend the ram you push down on the top of the coil and lift the rig but stay on your suspension. lowriders do this all the time you can probably run them off the p/s pump?

Duane85runr,

that is exactly what is done in the landcrusier above.

nice and simple .

The low rider guys know all about this shit ,ask them!

Originally posted by Brad
http://www.sierrarockcrawlers.com/images2/y0002.jpg

Details, part numbers, pics of the controls, cmon! :D

Originally posted by Weasel
The whole forced articulation seems like an awesome deal but it also seems like cheating? Sort of how I feel about rear steer. It's very cool but more of a band-aid for poor driving? And what is the fun in doing a rock garden in minutes?? I think going throught the whole thing in an hour our so would be much more enjoyable. Anyone else?

Nah, it's not cheating. There are times where there is only one line and it requires you to get way off camber, maybe tipping your body into a rock like in this picture (got my windshield frame):

http://www.azrockcrawler.com/_images/2002/2-02chaos/DSCN9181.JPG

There's only one way thru this hole and that's right up the middle. I suppose I could put bigger tires on the rig but that opens up a can of worms (gearing, wheelbase, tire clearances) all to just gain a measly 2-3 inches of clearance which may or may not even help in a situation like the one shown. The way I see it this is just another tool that opens up new obstacles to try. Rear steering will make most trails easier, but now you can try even harder lines, so in effect it can make an old trail fun again.

If you really want to see how forced articulation works, come out and watch Tracy and Don's rigs run in the CalROCS event in Victorville, Ca. on March 8-10. They'll be running in the unlimited, (nothing is cheating) class.

Rich

most lowriders are a single port ram only, they only extend under pressure and lower due to gravity. I've built coil over type setups for a lot of cars and with a little work they could be converted to a dual port ram.
The main advantage to having a hydraulic supension would be when a wheel was drooping you actually could pressurize the ram and get the vechicles weight onto that tire, the sidehilling is just a bonus. You don't really need daul action to achieve most of the benifits. I'd probably go single action rams(save a lot of money and headaches, lowrider parts a cheap and plentiful).
I probably got more than enough parts in my garage to do a setup, hmmmm maybe I'll look into it. single ported rams would act the same as airbags. :beer:

Yeah I guess what you guys are saying makes sence. And no I don't plan on keeping my rig stock. I do like the option of being able to level your slef in of camber stuff. Definate advantage there. So lets see the hydros...... :D

Originally posted by Big Rich
If you really want to see how forced articulation works, come out and watch Tracy and Don's rigs run in the CalROCS event in Victorville, Ca. on March 8-10. They'll be running in the unlimited, (nothing is cheating) class.

Rich

Tracy led the Armageddon run a couple weeks back. Ever since I have been thinking about trying some cylinders up front:D