anyone seen one?? thinking about getting a toybox to haul the heep in and this one (http://www.fleetwoodrv.com/specs/s.asp?model=GB335FS) peaked my interest. I'm also gonna look at the maker that dusty posted up a while back and see what they can do.

anyone happen to work for them?? :D

Let me give you my take on Fleetwood. I am NOT impressed with them. We used to sell Fleetwood Terry trailers and we dropped them because their dealer support was absolutely terrible. We are still a factory authorized service/warranty center, so I still deal with them. I had to order a counter top fpr a Terry 5th wheel and the first one was wrong, as was the second one. I finally had to send them a template of what I needed so they could get it right. The kicker...they keps sending me prints of the counter top to double check it, and the print was right. For some reason, they couldn't build what their print showed. In the middle of all this, they changed their phone numbers and didn't bother to tell anyone. It took me a week to track them down. They never return calls, and rarely return emails. All in all, poor customer service. Unfortunately, it runs down to the customer.
At one point, we actually stopped doing warranty work for them because they weren't paying the claims. We were floating tens of thousands of dollars for them and finally had to quit. When they started getting calls from customers, the money started coming to us. It was the strangest thing.
Would I buy a new Fleetwood? Nope.
That is based on MY expierence with them, so don't go solely on that.
Feel better now? I do! :D

thanks dan, custumer service is definatly important.

one of there factories is supposed to be about 20 miles from here. all I knew about fleetwood is that they made moble homes.

I saw one a while back when I was looking for 5th wheels and it was the next model up (375FSG). It was kinda neat and it had the optional split wall to keep the storage area seperate from the living area. The storage area for that model was extremely small, like the new Austin Mini small. They did have other floor pans with bigger storage area but for some reason I don't think they came with a partition wall, which is something I would want. Even the Sales person told me he would be hesitant to put my Landcruiser in it, if there was room. A look underneath and I wasn't overly impressed with the frame construction under the storage area. It's very nicely apppointed trailer with some neat features but after a couple of years I could see the back frame starting to fatigue under the weight of a wheeling rig.

what did you endup going with?? were there any that you could upgrade the floor to add braces and such?? your crusier is probably fairly close to the heep that i've got in size and weight.

thanks

sb

Well the salesperson specified a minimum 1 ton for towing and I wasn't to keen on trading in my truck for a 5th wheel that be marginal in strength. I basically ended up sticking to my old Class C and got a 17' enclosed trailer to tow behind it for my cruiser. It worked out well as I could fit either my Landcruiser in it or my 16' ski boat with a few dirt bikes for camping.

As for modifying a Gearbox 5th wheel, well I am of the mind set if I am going to drop 50 G's (that's canadian pesos) it better be built for what I need it to do. From what I remember, the modification would be extensive for the rear storage compartment to bring it up to my satisfaction for carrying my landcruiser. Bare minimum would have been to get 2 20' pieces of 4" or 5" if you could fit it and brace from the axles back and a few more cross braces at least. But then again this was from a quick look underneath a couple of months ago.

To tell you the truth if I knew I could get one built like the one in the Universal trailer thread (Dusty's trailer I believe) for that for that money, my Motorhome would have been long gone and I would be sporting one of those.

Since you asked.....

I looked at the very same unit for our comp rig- as it turns out, it was a bit too small cause I need to fit two quads in also for family reasons. The unit I looked at had the rev red interior- lots of bling, a lot of cool features, storage and good use of space.

Then I looked harder at it. The chassis, IMHO is way light for the load, crossmembers are almost non existant. There was flimsy stuff going on in quite a few places. That said, I spoke with the factory and they assured me that aside from needing stronger tie downs it was fine for my needs and even the miles I do. Then I hit the rv forums- the gearbox has a history of delam issues, the factory has been buying units back etc- I would not touch one without a 5 yr min delam warranty.

I ended up ordering a work & Play by Forest river, very stout, less bling. Will be getting some interior remodeling as soon as I get it. Night and day construction difference. Good luck!

thanks guys. those universals are looking better and better.

I would stay away from the GearBox if I were you. Check the Toyhauler forums over on RV.net there are a lot of people complaining about them. Fleetwood took a long time to actually realize the toyhauler segment was more than just a fad. For years they thought they could just slap a rear ramp door onto a Mallard or Terry trailer and us hillbillies would buy it just because its a Fleetwood and Fleetwood is Number 1. Well guess what, in the last few years Fleetwood has dropped from number 1 to number 3 RV manufacturer and barely averted bankruptcy in the process, and all that doesn't just happen for nothing. They've had some serious quality problems all across their product lines. When Fleetwood finally realized that the Toyhauler segment warranted some actual thought, they quit building the "travel trailer with a ramp door" and went back to the drawing board to create the GearBox. When the GearBox first came out it had a lot of neat features that really made it a hit and had most of the industry scrambling to catch up with them on features. But as more and more of them got out into the population and being used the problems started to pop up. Mostly delamination problems with the sidewalls, but also many basic build quality and "fit & finish" deficiencies. I've looked at a lot of them and the closer you look, the uglier they get. I work in the RV industry for a competitor to Fleetwood so take what I say with a grain of salt. But most of the rest of us have made a cottage industry out of exploiting Fleetwood's rather spectacular implosion over the last few years.

My company used to make toyhaulers too, until we sold that segment of our business a few months ago to Weekend Warrior. We built what we felt (and still feel) was one of the best designed, best built toyhaulers out there. But we're primarily a class "A" motorhome company and for some reason our management never really got their hearts into the trailer business. That's the great thing about an outfit like Weekend Warrior--they live and breath toyhaulers and so they're able to dominate that segment over much larger RV manufacturers like us, Fleetwood and others. Hell they pretty much single-handedly built that category. contrary to popular belief they didn't invent the toyhauler (Alfa did), but their single-minded focus on that market niche has worked well for them. I don't know if they build the best toyhaulers, but they're always on the cutting edge. I believe one of the best toyhaulers built is still the one we used to build, now owned of course by Weekend Warrior, but still built here in our plant in Perris until they can find their own facilities some time next year. They set it up as a separate company, called Rage'n Inc. The brand name is Rage'n, and there's also an upgrade brand called Blaze'n. They're very nicely built, you can check out what owners have said about them over on rv.net.

But the one thing to keep in mind is that a toyhauler is still a toyhauler. Even the well-built ones are still built to haul motorcycles, quads and sandrails. To my knowledge, none are built specifically to withstand the rigors of hauling a fully trail-ready 4x4. I know because I've been wanting one for years, and from my viewpoint here in the industry I've had a front row seat. Sure they can put enough axles under there to get a GVWR that, on paper, has enough capacity to haul your rig. But the engineering of the chassis and box structure still isn't up to the task in my opinion. I'm sure salesemen will tell you it can haul your rig, based only on the fact that the interior dimensions are big enough and it has enough axle weight capacity. But the manufacturers--the guys who designed them--put those flimsy tie-downs in there for a reason--they don't expect you to ever actually put anything HEAVY in there.

Most toyhaulers are still built with the same construction methods that old school travel trailers have: a wooden frame with "hung" aluminum siding. In the industry these are called "stick & tin". The box, or the coach structure, contributes zero strength to the overall structural integrity of the trailer. Much better are the ones with metal framed walls. Steel would be best but no toyhaulers that I know of are steel framed. Next best is aluminum, which some of them have. Make sure its in a true laminated wall though, and not a "hung wall. The delamination problems come on the units that have the exterior skins "hung" onto the coach with adhesives rather than actually vacuum bonding the whole wall assembly in a vacuum table prior to assembling it onto the coach. So make sure it has both a welded metal frame, and is a true laminated wall. This will add a lot of strength to the overall structure of the coach. Some salesmen will try to argue that the stick and tin trailer is better because it can flex better, and "roll with the punches". that may be the case but I'm just not confident they can take that kind of twisting and flexing over many years. I for one wouldn't invest that kind of money into something with such an intentional lack of structural integrity. For the record, the Rage'n units that I mentioned are stick and tin. There is a smooth fiberglass exterior wall option, but they're "hung" too, not laminated. The Blaze'n line uses real, aluminum framed laminated sidewalls though.

I have a couple of freinds who haul their Broncos in toyhaulers. One just traded out his Tahoe 5er for a 40' race trailer. The other uses a big Next Level 5er that he's had for about a year now. The Next Level is a VERY nice unit, with truly cosmopolitan amenities. I believe it has laminated sidewalls and it seems to be built fairly well. But it cost him nearly 50K, and for all its bells and whistles its still a toyhualer. It seems to be holding up well so far though.

I really really wanted to believe in the toyhualer to satisfy my needs. I could get a smoking deal on one since I work for a company that builds (built) them. But even though I believed we built one of the best ones out there, I still couldn't take that leap of faith. I didn't feel that any toyhauler would outlast the loan, hauling my Bronco, if I used it as much as I wanted to over the next ten years. Before I found Universal Trailers (and there are actually a number of trailer companies similar to them so even though I spout out about them a lot, they're not the only ones who could build a trailer like mine) I had pretty much decided I would have to get an enclosed car trailer or race trailer. The already converted ones were so expensive, and none really configured the way I wanted either. But a race trailer is a real car trailer. They're built with STEEL, usually. These days there are several companies that build race type trailers with living quarters already built in. The Work and Play by Forest River is one, as is the CampMaster by Road Master. My brother bought one built by Carson, called a Carrera, which is very nice but I don't think they build them any more. I would have bought a trailer from one of these outfits but they're priced a little out of my range and none of them were configured quite the way I wanted them. But if you're hauling a heavy 4x4, these are a much better choice than a toyhauler, in my opinion.

Dusty

thank you for taking the time to type that Dusty. I agree, most race trailers that are converted are huge $$ that I can't swallow. Its hard to find a reputalble manufacture to have one built. luckly you found one and I am certainly going to give them a nod just because of what you've said here, and in your thread.

are the work and play by forest river a true 'car hauler' style? and I'm assuming that the univerals are a car hauler frame built in the manner that you state.

I really do apprecite the help you've given me.

thanks

shaun

Dusty- you the man- I'm curious about your thoughts and or experience with the FRP construction work and Play uses. I know it's old school and a bit heavier, but seems to still be around- especially in commercial applications where durability is prioritized.

By the way- there's a range of car trailers too- I bought new "entry level" last yr and it was not up to the job structurally, fixed under warranty after nine months and sold for local use, several new skins, new roof, new axles, third member added to drawbar etc. I ran a new FRP victory lane this yr and it was a reliable, well sealed trouble free tank.

As an example of some of the features that got me to W & P

Frame is powdercoated

Darco barrier between floor and frame

7" tall crossmembers on 16" centers

frame rails are each made of 2 8" I beams welded together side by side

landing gear looks like it came from a semi trailer

one piece ALUMINUM roof

FRP walls- for those who don't know, these panels are wood core with fiberglass laminate on each side, i sheet per wall of trailer, through bolted in a sandwich method around entire perimeter to chassis/ roof etc. there are no wall "studs". Makes for a very ridgid structure but items hung on walls must be through bolted with special fasteners.

9.5' tall rather than 12.5 tall and with 87" height- more wind drag friendly

still decent weight wise

torsion axles

5er or gn hitch- I went with 5er due to SB truck

Good luck!

Dusty- you the man- I'm curious about your thoughts and or experience with the FRP construction work and Play uses. I know it's old school and a bit heavier, but seems to still be around- especially in commercial applications where durability is prioritized.

I'm not that familiar with the stuff they use but I'm pretty sure i know what it is from your description and having seen the same stuff use in box vans. FRP stands for Fiberglass Reinforced Polyester, and it takes on many forms. In the motorhome industry we use FRP for many things, most notably at my company we use it for our roof skins. But this is just the thin, flexible FRP sheet that hasn't been bonded to a plywood backing. We use it in our lamination process and bond it to the roof assembly ourselves. The stuff you're describing is already laminated to the plywood core, but the term FRP technically only applies to the fiberglass exterior surface. FRP in general is great stuff because its very durable and easy to repair (versus other materials that RV roofs can be skinned in, such as rubber or aluminum). In the form that you're describing it is extremely durable. If I'm not mistaken this is the same stuff that cube van bodies like Ryder trucks are made out of. That stuff should be great for resisting hits from both inside and outside. As for its value as a structural part of the assembly I can't say. I'm sure its much better than stick and tin though. In the long run it will depend on how much stress is put on the sidewalls due to deficiencies in the chassis' strength. I doubt these walls are designed to be part of the load bearing structure of the trailer frame, like the steel tube walls in the Universal trailer. But as long as the necessary strength is built into the chassis itself everything should be fine. And from what you described of the chassis construction it sounds like you're plenty strong down there. Again not speaking from any actual engineering knowledge, just from what "seems" right to me after seeing a few of these things.

Sounds like a nice trailer. how wide is it? I didn't know they made Work & Plays in a true wide body (102")

Dusty

I looked at a number of the "Toy Boxes" and I found two things I couldn't except.
#1. The rear doors were only 7' tall (84") and my Heep is taller than that.
To get a taller trailer box and door, if available, was $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

#2. The cargo weight capacity was too low on all but a very few of them and
even those that were *rated* high enough had flimsy looking construction.


I did look into the "Race Trailers", but again, way too much $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Gary, like we've talked about, depending on the $$ to get a tall enough roof, I'd be willing to change the tires to get it to fit on the trailer, then swap the real ones back onsite.

I think right now, my main choices are between the universal ones, and the forest river work and play ones with the jayco brand following them. we'll see how the $$ stacks up for them and I'll go from there. the gooseneck with the camper on it may be our final option in the end, ya never know.

sb

Yea, looks like the Tt's are 77" tall door and 8' while the 5ers are 102 wide and 87" tall doors

what's the door size on you work and play model???

what's the door size on you work and play model???

87" H x 90" W Door

87" ceiling, 83" between fenders

Dusty, I'm just curious, who do you work for? You can PM me if you want.

83 between the fenders huh? I think width would work and 87 tall thats a touch over 7' so that 'may' work too. Hummmmm.

**edit: just got home and measured height is 83" and outside tire to outside tire is 82" (on my existing flatbed its also 83" between the fenders and it just fits) and my length from bumper to bumper is a touch over 12 feet. so at a min I'm looking at 14 foot of cargo space.

now hopefully the work and plays or the the ones from universal are in the 30k or under window :D
thanks

Dusty, I'm just curious, who do you work for? You can PM me if you want.

I work for National RV (http://www.nationalrv.com) in Perris, CA, in our Marketing Department.

Dusty

Ahhh...ok. I couldn't figure it out. I work for an RV dealership and you kind of spiked my interest because we sell the Weekend Warrior.

I understand that the primary reason behind FRP is ease of decal application. On commercial vehicles the rolling advertizing factor, free billboards where most communities are banning billboards alltogether, is the driving factor. Same thing with the rental RVs like CruiseAmerica, pretty much all rvs feel the need for massive graphics and vinyl is easire with no rivets and screws. Since they intend to replace the advertizing the UV factor isn't really addressed. Reason 2 is raw cargo capacaty, FRP is thinner than wall studs yeilding more cubes. Even though the material is heavier most cargo vans don't max out their weight. The cost of FRP vs Aluminum is pretty much a wash. If you ever need to repair the FRP you will have a patch vs removing and replacing sections of aluminum. As far as finish FRP is nice and smooth with no screws or rivets but this isn't necessarily good if you intend to move stuff around, as Ken mentioned the fastner thing. The new cool kid on the block is DuraPlate, same skinny walls WITH panelization. You get even more cubes. I think this is what my new trailer will be made of and Wabash is the originator of he design. As far as race trailers and interior, imho it a lot easier to finish a structurally sound box than to strengthen a weak trailer. Sinct the box is the "foundation" of the toyhauler, so to speak, you get what you build on. Dusty's trailer is tube steel (iirc 16 ga 1.5" x 1.5" ?) so the entire box is a structural member. Just like a box beam. Even better than the "Z" post construction in most boxes but 25% heavier due to 1 extra section of material, 4 sides vs 3 sides. Hope the pics explain it better than my babbeling. I couldn't get them posted side by side but here's the link as well.

http://www.utilimaster.com/body_construction.html

http://www.utilimaster.com/images/AlumWallConstr.gif
http://www.utilimaster.com/images/FRPWallConstr.gif
http://www.utilimaster.com/images/DuraPlateWallConstr.gif

I also looked at many toy haulers and was disapointed.... Gearbox told me they never herd of the delam prob... :rolleyes:

So i looked in the trader (local) and found me a 26 foot carson converted. used
It has full living ammenaties in front open with a 4000 watt onan 2 beds and a 27 inch tv.. :D i got it used for under 10,000. even has a dove tail for better entry angle..

And this thig is made to pull my 4500 lbs rig..

Also my rig is full width on 39's fits no prob. and has room for 2 quads and a dirt bike...

26 foot, and still enough for living ammenaties?? cool. is it a bumper pull? where is the bed?

When i bought it it had no beds so i made 2 fold up ones that fit flat aginst the wall. 1 inch square tubing and futon matress... one i made folds down half way as a couch or all the way as a bed... it has a small shower and toilet , but im not a big guy so it works fine for me and the wife... large fridge,closet,ac,thermostat heat,and microwave,stove and sink and the kitchen has room for a quad. It came with a large side door for a quad... i'll post some pics latter so it makes sence... but i'm very happy that i did not buy a toyhauler... the carson pulls like a dream at 12,000 loaded. Thats full water jeep and 2 quads

Oh yes it's bumper pull and they mounted the onan generator on the front and built a nice dimond cover for it with the 2 propane tankes in front of the generator.. it's the carson racer model..