For those of you with new large shops. Do you find that people invite themselves over to work on their junk at your house now that you have a big new shop? IF so, How do you say "NO" to those that are nothing more than freeloaders
As word gets out about my new shop we're building I find I have a lot of new "Special" friends. Guys I don't really know. They act like "Hey cool, let me know when it's finished and I'll bring my junk over to your house so we can work on it".
I really don't want to be down right rude but, I'm spending a shit load of money on this building and I have enough of my own junk to work on. Beside, the reason I'm building one as big as I am is so I don't have to trip over stuff on the floor anymore. My three car garage is FULL!
I have a few good buds whom I've invited, but what do you guys do about those OTHERS?
What if I put up a sign that says "Shop Rental Rates".


SSSRodeo

Delivery date on the building is scheduled for 1/10/2005. Temporary power pole gets a meter tomorrow. Now if it will just dry up enough to pour concrete.

Just say "No" .................

Personally I'd be straight up and tell them no. Most people will never hear subtle hints.

I sick my wife on 'em. Seriously -- we do a pretty mean good cop / bad cop. :p

BTW, Curtis, when can I visit! :flipoff2:

Randii

I've tried that before in my other house I was remodeling at the time and couldn't spare the time to help anyone. One guy just wanted to borrow my empty garage for the day to swap out his clutch. Uh, ok , You got the parts already? Sure do. Said he'd get some guys from the board to help. Turns out none of them had ever changed a clutch out before and the flywheel was toast. One week later after spending quit a bit of my time chasing the correct parts for his truck he gets it out. My wife was furious. I was like "Well, it got out of hand" NOt to mention everytime I turned around I was having to drop the paint brush and come out give him a tutorial
He did offer to help with the remodel, but he didn't know anything and he lived 2 hours away.
I don't want to be an ass but I'm planning on running a buisness out of it in 18 months and don't have alot of room or time to loan out my shop and tools.

Since I'll have a lift and a nicely equipped small machine shop in it. I have already gotten a lot of "Offers"


SSSRodeo

just Ask Them to pay for filling your oxy-ass bottles and cover some of the electric bill. That should tell you which ones to let work in your shop. the good ones will cough up some green or get the hint.

When I first got my shop 8 years ago, I had 4-5 real good friends that had keys, they helped me get it all setup, and I thought it was a nice gesture. Well you can guess how that went. At one point I had a friend that was sleeping in the office in my shop, when he got kicked out of the house, or the time that I had to take a big shit, and one of the guys took all (12-24roll pack) toilet paper, because his wife called and he did not want to stop on the way home.

My shop has 2 deadbolts on the door, locks on the windows, padlocks on the rollups, and no one has a key. I carry a .40 H&K usp. compact, the girlfriend carries, and my 2 pits are not nice to anyone at the house without tits. I still help lots of friends, but realize that if you have nice stuff, lots of grade 8 hardware, lots of DOM tube, quanity of brackets, hose fittings, any of the stuff it takes to run a shop, they all think that it is no big deal to "borrow" some stuff, for there project. There is a guy right down the street from me with a nice bobbed mini truck, and I think he has been told that I am a crazy tattooed fawker, that pulls guns on people when they pull in the driveway, because he will not stop, and does not even wave. I am not that bad, but I do not let the local tweekers even get out of there cars, if I am home. I have no less than, 10 "Do not enter" "No Tresspassing", and "Beware of Dog" signs. I want to get a big sign at the new shop I am building that reads "DO NOT STOP, DO NOT ENTER, GO THE FAWK AWAY!!!" , but the girlfriend says that a sign like that sends the wrong message. I think it is the right message. If you have not figgured out I am way too nice, and all my "friends" have taken advantage of it over the years, but I still am the only one that works on my junk. It gets real old.

It is not easy. I have had a shop for 3 years and my 4Runner is *still* not done while I have built and rebuilt no less than 5 other vehicles under my roof.

If you find the secret, let me know :p

I lay awake at night having visions of what you just described Jason.

Why is it that anytime I need help, everybody is too busy. But I'm never too busy to help them.

Only two guys have ever offered to help with the consummables and electricity.

Don't get me wrong, I've struggled all my liife and started over with nothing more than once, so Iknow what it feels like to need help. But I fear that this could get way out of hand.
SSSRodeo

so where do you live, and let me know when its done so i can come over and wrench on my junk. :flipoff2:

i think its important to let those people know that you will not be loaning out the shop to anyone and everyone. when i was younger i left my 69 charger in a buddies dad's shop while i came in (usually 3-4 times a week at least) to do some body work. it took almost 6 months. hes a real cool guy and still to this day says its no problem if i need to do any work on things, but i still look back on that and feel kinda bad about it. partly because im not sure if hes just saying that because im good friends with his kid, or if he is truly meaning it. anymore i just make sure that i dont bring in big projects because i wouldnt want someone to do that to me. i guess what im saying is that beating around the bush could come accross as a loose yes in some people's minds. they need a flat out no. its your shop and your money.

I help everyone, and I am real nice to most. It helps that when not at work, I look like a scary thug, but all my friends known I will do anything to help them. I have found with my true friends, I will make it real clear what the timeline, and my(or my shops) help will be. If you can be real frim, and set a "shop rule" and live by it, it might be ok. The best policy is NO. You may do better than I have, but I am lucky to get 5-10% of the time, and money(in parts) back that I have loaned friends. If you do anything, think of it as charity. I vote for NO, NO, AND NO!

How about this line?
"If it takes you longer than today to do it, I will put a mechanics lein on your shit and it will be mine tomorrow."

If they want to use it.... PAY UP SUCKER!!! :flipoff2:

Hamburger therory.

Would you loan out a Hamburger? NO!!!!!!!!

Why???? Because it will come back SHIT!!!!!!!!! :flipoff2:

Charging works too! Charge $125 an hour, 4 hour min, cash up front!!!

make em pay for consumables and bring some sort of payment, ie beer, food if they wanna work in your shop, if they want your help, make em bring twice as much DO NOT let anybody use your space when you ain't there

I don't have an awesome shop but a lot of my friends call me cause i've got the tools, kinda pisses me off when somebody I haven't talked to in 3mos./3000miles calls to use my floor jack and drain pan cause they are a cheap ass, then they spend all their time talkin about how much $$$they spent chasin pussy or on drinks

I've spent a lot of years overcoming my good nature. It just takes losing enough tools and money and having people trash your stuff and eventually saying no becomes a lot easier. Your real friends won't take advantage of you. If you piss people off you're probably better off without them. As stated further above, hints don't work. It's still not easy as it should be!

Im alot nicer on here than i am not on here. i just tell them to build their own fucking garage and work on their shit there.

I hate people who ask me to work on their stuff. My rule is that anybody that asks me gets told "NO". If I wanted to work on their junk I would offer. I like to spend some time with/on my job, my own junk, the trail, my machine shop hobby, my friends, my dog and most importantly - my family. Seems like some people just can't understand this, or they can't understand why I don't want to leave my Jeep outside for a month while their junk occupies my garage.

That's not to say that I dont help people. I still end up spending many weekends helping my friends every year - usually setting up gears or installing lockers. When I do offer to help one of them, I set down some simple rules like "I don't set up gears on housings that are in the vehicle." I always make people pull their housings and clean them before coming over, and I make it clear that they provide the grunt work and I am there only to run the dial indicator and read the pattern. I check their boxes of parts before we start and make sure they have everything, and I make them bring brake cleaner, rags and beer. It sounds picky, but I don't want someone's parts at my house for a month while we wait for something they forgot.

I don't have a shop, but I've amassed a lot of tools,parts, and steel over the years (way more than any of my other friends) So this is the place they come to work on shit. I had no problem with helping them, and as you all have stated...I've put 25x more time into their junk than they have mine...but after coming home last weekend and finding half of my tools laying around the driveway under the carport that they had used while I was gone and a piece of steel they used to waste no less than .25lb of wire to practice welding with...it's over. From now on I'm charging for help, and all of their shit stays at their house...not my driveway for a month.



ALSO; Damn Jim, your spelling and grammar has improved 300% over the past year...well done. Much easier to read.:D

Im alot nicer on here than i am not on here. i just tell them to build their own fucking garage and work on their shit there.

them: will you fix my car?

me: d00d,code enforcement..no can do :shrug:.

I have a 24x24 and its full with a Prostreet Coronet that still needs minor tweakin, and an almost finished EB trail rig. Unfortunately neither are in decent running condition and theres a foot of snow outside that I cant move one out to get the daily driver in for its maintainence stuff.

I do have one buddy who will let me in his 40x40 to do this stuff but he knows I have been over several times on short notice to help him do a customers truck and that I WILL have all parts needed to do the stuff needed.

Theres very few guys I will lend my shop out to, and I can prolly count on one hand the guys, and out of those 5, 3 of them got better equipped shops than I do!?!?

Lots of negativity, here. Guess I haven't been burned as badly as others.

I only offer when I'm willing... and I reject almost every other request out of hand, out of principle. Maybe that helps?

Randii

Nature abhors a vacuum. Keep your shop full of stuff.

If you have a three-car shop with two open bays, people are going to ask if they can bring their junk in. You either say yes or end up looking like an asshole.

Bring the spare parts rig and other assorted yard art inside. Not only will your neighbors thank you for raising the property values up, but you can beg off with the "sorry no room" excuse a lot easier.

If you don't have any crap, lots of extra room that you're not using for anything else and you just don't want your friends to come over, I guess it's your right to be a selfish ass. :flipoff2:

-tom

i don't have a shop and am the type of person that will help you once and if i ask for help and you can't well next time your on your own. i started work as a machanic just awhile ago nothing big or heavy some tire changes, oil and lube and the like and i tell you what tools aint cheap and the expendables are worse. when i build a shop i'll have the only key. and as said above their will be rules.

I don't have a shop, but I've amassed a lot of tools,parts, and steel over the years (way more than any of my other friends) So this is the place they come to work on shit. I had no problem with helping them, and as you all have stated...I've put 25x more time into their junk than they have mine...but after coming home last weekend and finding half of my tools laying around the driveway under the carport that they had used while I was gone and a piece of steel they used to waste no less than .25lb of wire to practice welding with...it's over. From now on I'm charging for help, and all of their shit stays at their house...not my driveway for a month.



ALSO; Damn Jim, your spelling and grammar has improved 300% over the past year...well done. Much easier to read.:D

fromnowoniamnotusingmyspacebarjustbecauseyousaidth at :flipoff2:

Nice guys get burned every time.............been there done that. Now I have 2 30x50 shops and Nobody is allowed in without me except for my kids and wife. Nothing has turned up missing and no torch bottles left on since new rules............. :smokin:

I don't have a shop, but I've amassed a lot of tools,parts, and steel over the years (way more than any of my other friends) So this is the place they come to work on shit. I had no problem with helping them, and as you all have stated...I've put 25x more time into their junk than they have mine...but after coming home last weekend and finding half of my tools laying around the driveway under the carport that they had used while I was gone and a piece of steel they used to waste no less than .25lb of wire to practice welding with...it's over. From now on I'm charging for help, and all of their shit stays at their house...not my driveway for a month.

This is the environment I'm coming from. I have been working in my garages for years. Have so many tools amased that the wifes sports car sets outside in the rain. I promised her that after the building goes up she will never have to park her convertable outside again. My building will be large enough I can park my Motorhome and 5 rigs in and still have room for the fork lift, motorcycles and machine shop, I enjoy working with people and teaching them how to fix their junk. But, I get burned almost everytime. So I made it policy, " I won't work on your stuff alone, but I'll guide you through as you do, If I get dirty, your going to be dirtier."
Somehow, I can offer free Class on how to set up a rear end and one guy will show up. But for years after, all kinds of people will remember that I did that class, so I must be willing to do theirs. Sometimes for a pittance offering. I make my living as a Project Manager, So Hey, I'm supposed to be White Collar, so NO, I won't be your charity grease monkey.

I'm hopeing I moved far enough out of town to make it hard for the freeloaders to just drop in and leave their crap over night. This way walking home is not an option,

Maybe a "shop rental rates" sign posted at every entrance in BOLD letters will deter anyone from asking.

Good to hear I'm not the only soft hearted S.O.B. here. My biggest fault I guess.
But since it's legal to run a buisness in my addition, maybe I should just tell them that I need that space to operate my buisness. If they want to occupy that space, then they need to pay for the privilige.

We shall see, Thanks for the input guys. I knew I could count on ya'll to help me bolster my confidence to "Just say Fawk NO"


SSSRodeo

i have the opposite problem...no one to come and give me a hand when i need it. Actually, its a lot better than a bunch of turd-ball friends wanting me to work on their junk!

if they are there just standing around, put them to work. if you need some stuff cleaned in the parts washer, make them clean it and make them do it just as well as you would. do not hesitate to criticize their work! after a while, you'll piss-off the people that just want to use your shop and will have a core group of guys that do the same quality of work that you would.

a buddy of mine has the same problem. people stop by and will stand around until he asks them to give them a hand. at that time they leave and usually won't be back for a while...it seems to work really well for him.

i have the opposite problem...no one to come and give me a hand when i need it. Actually, its a lot better than a bunch of turd-ball friends wanting me to work on their junk!

if they are there just standing around, put them to work. if you need some stuff cleaned in the parts washer, make them clean it and make them do it just as well as you would. do not hesitate to criticize their work! after a while, you'll piss-off the people that just want to use your shop and will have a core group of guys that do the same quality of work that you would.

a buddy of mine has the same problem. people stop by and will stand around until he asks them to give them a hand. at that time they leave and usually won't be back for a while...it seems to work really well for him.


I've never had that experience, but, should it happen with the newplace, your method sounds good. The freeloaders will leave and your true friends will pitch in and come back. Free Labor, the American Dream!

SSSRodeo

Feel free to keep them out the same way we do in church...

Play bad music - Ask them to pitch in with the work - Preach to them about something they don't want to hear about - And take up an offering... :D :D

Feel free to keep them out the same way we do in church...

Play bad music - Ask them to pitch in with the work - Preach to them about something they don't want to hear about - And take up an offering... :D :D

DING, DING,DING, DING!!!!!!!!!!!!

That has got to be the Winner. Don't know why I didn't think of that!!

Amy Grant & Steven Curtis Chapman at full volume will drive off those non comitted!
And the collection plate should be magnetic so I can keep it on the work bench without knocking it off. Now I need some of that purple felt to line the bottom.
If I put my XM Radio on the religious station there won't even be any commercials. :D
And, I'll bet a Chuck Missler bible study CD will drive out the Demons.

I feel better now that I have a plan. And since I don't drink that much beer I won't have to clean away their empties! Never aquired a taste for it.

Thanks a lot.

SSSRodeo

Hamburger therory.

Would you loan out a Hamburger? NO!!!!!!!!

Why???? Because it will come back SHIT!!!!!!!!! :flipoff2:

Charging works too! Charge $125 an hour, 4 hour min, cash up front!!!
THAT IS THE FAWKIN TICKET!!!! Hamburger Therory LOL, how true is that? :flipoff2:

I have a coffee can that says "weld, beer, and pizza $$$$" on the lid. It seems like it has become a little too well know that I'll do about anything for beer, so last weekend I welded up a 14 bolt carrier (what a PITA) and installed new gears into a 14 bolt for 24 sam adams light. The entire time there was ANOTHER buddy waiting in the driveway for that bay in the garage to open up.
At the end of the day, I'm out of lock-tight, O2 for the gas axe, weld gas, shop towels and silicone. Not to mention running a 220 welder wide open for 20 min.
but hey.. I have a shitload of beer piled up in the garage....

JUST tell them a $$$ amount or NO.

it's legal to run a buisness in my addition, maybe I should just tell them that I need that space to operate my buisness.

You *are* running a business. You need to make a living. The guys who want to just use your time/space to work on their junk, don't really care what else you might do for a living, nor should they know what you do with your time if they know what's in your garage. I'd prefer that anybody who knows what's in mine, think I'm in there 24/7 with my gun and my dog--but that's a whole separate thread. If they're taking up your time, space, etc., while you could be making a living, they're costing you paying work.

Helps that my place is packed, and I live in a place that gets snow... working outside in my dirt driveway in the snow/mud sucks. Hey, you mentioned the wife's convertible... can't weld/grind/torch near that. You'll screw up the soft top. And you promised the wife indoor parking. Something tells me you've got other things that shouldn't be subjected to spatter/sparks too.

Doing things more tactfully--the guys who just want to hang out, can help. I have lots of heavy things I need to move. I'll bet you do too. Bet you've got plenty of home-improvement projects that need done too... and you can't possibly convince me that you're softie enough to let guys hang out in your garage while you're not even there. If you are, where are you? I'm movin' in next door. :)

I learned the hard way about being a nice guy with a big shop. This was several years ago when it happened but it was a good lesson. Friend brings over his Scout to do a SOA. In the process my lead man breaks a finger(and nearly lost it). When he took his Scout he left me the mess to clean up and never even offered to pay for electricity, shop supplies and such. After that I didn't see the guy much. Guess he really wasn't my friend but just needed somewhere to work on his junk.

Since then nobody comes over and works on their junk unless I am making money on it. Rent, electricity, brakekleen, nuts/bolts, etc cost money. To say the least I only have a handful of GOOD friends anymore. The rest can lick my ass crack and go pound sand!
________
Super420 live (http://camslivesexy.com/cam/Super420)

I've been burned a few too many times as well.
I'm a bodyman but I won't touch it on the side now. Not for ANYONE.

If I'm going to do some fabricatin' or welding for someone I get paid up front. I've gone over on an estimate now and then BUT...I GOT PAID didn't I!?!?

I'm picky over who can borrow my shop.
I only let personal friends who I KNOW can be hit up for favors later...and will come thru on those favors...into my world.
EG: Several years ago, I built a plow frame (Quadrant, A frame and mounting O$) for a close friend. I keep it in good order for him as well.
He makes good money doing driveways on his days off.
Guess who keeps my long driveway clear ALL winter long (O$) and helps me out with a warm garage to use if mine is full and the DD goes out?

Sure its a pain to get a call dinner time that the plow is damaged and he needs a bracket welded or something...but it beats pushing a snowblower for 2 hours every couple of days or doing brake pads outdoors on the minivan!

He's there when I call...I'm there when he calls. NO excuses.
If it doesn't work that way, it just doesn't work and the door is shut.
I've slammed a few doors in my time...count on doing the same.

It's ALL about YOU FIRST. Remember that...or you suffer the consequences.
(Man...I'm one self centered fawker....hahaha )

1st rule if you want to use my shop you have to help me clean it (that gets rid of most)
2nd rule ussually min 1 month waiting period ( again gets rid of most )
3rd rule you must be out to work on it everyday or tractor get hooked to it and you never know when it might get back into shop
4th rule if you want it quick then you pay me to do it and you stay away till its done
my shop 30x40x13 , 9000 lift , welders, torches, plazma, drill press, tire changer, hossfeld 2 hyd bender, hopefully both metal lathe and brake lathe in near future
also fully equiped tools and auto diag tools accumulated from 25 year as a tech all at home now
I still have 1 guy that uses my shop regularlly but he is also always availble when I need help

From time to time, I too like to take advantage of a friend or a shop owner that has some piece of equipment/shop/knowledge that I don't have (for instance, one son works at an off-road shop and the other in a place that does muffler/general mechanic work).

What I try to do when I would like to borrow some time/tool/expertise is make it worth the shop owner/manager's time. That is only fair. I never want to take advantage of someone's good graces, so I do what I can do to make them happy they decided to assist me in some way.

I bring lunch for the guys/girls - I sweep the floor - I visit with customers in the showroom and sell them something the shop sells - I pay for supplies ( :eek: ) - I get out of their way when they have business to do... It all helps and they are generally pretty friendly and willing to help. On top of all that, I have certain areas of expertise that the shops sometimes do not have - so I make my own services availble to them in return. It all works out pretty well.

What I dislike are the freeloaders mentioned in the posts above. I've had to deal with them myself. I am now pretty careful to say yes or no about my own shop time and the jobs I will tackle (or let someone else tackle) and those that play by the rules set above are much more apt to get into my own shop than the dude that gets rude and obnoxious - and who drinks all my cokes without chipping in...

I'm in just the opposite situation.

I'm willing to make electrical improvements on someones shop if they'll let me use it from time to time (add plugs, lights, etc). I'll pay for any consumables that I use, and I'll bring enough beer to share.

I actually don't feel comfortable asking people to help me with my rig, nor do I feel comfortable asking to use their shop.

Basically my junk sits in my driveway (gravel) broken until I get the time to haul it to my Dad's shop (150 mi away) and work on it. The downside to that is that I can't get any parts out there. Auto supply closes at noon on Saturday, not open on Sunday, and it's a good chance they're not going to have what I need in stock anyhow, so I'd better have the right damn parts before I get there.

Good thread. My situation is that my garage is a dedicated woodshop, so I have noplace to do any kind of "dirty" work. Lucky for me desertoy has a nice big well equipped shop (and way more mechanicle knowledge than I) that I do all my work in. I guess you can say I'm "that guy" :laughing:

I try hard to keep myself welcome so when I show up I have beer, all my parts (down to the nuts/bolts), any fluids we might need, and all the consumables including extra to leave there. desertoy doesn't have trash service at his place so when I leave I also take all the parts we pulled as well as any fluids that got drained.

I've also made a dining table and fireplace mantle for his house :)

Nature abhors a vacuum. Keep your shop full of stuff.

-tom

cool, I needed a good reason to buy more junk. this one is perfect, thanks ! :D

just got a house with a 3 bay detached...already full and i haven't even bought it, rig in one, VW in another, GF car in the other bay...dam i need a bigger shop...hey foxfab when you starting to build that shop again? :flipoff2:

Love the chruch method idea.

I just tell everyone they have to come help wrench in my junk first - really fun stuff like wheel bearings, greezy bobcat work, moving heavy shit. It is a great deterant.
As for consumables / materials, bluntly tell them either bring thier own or pay up.
A true friend will not take advantage of you. I have keys to a huge repair shop that a friend owns. He said use it any time I want. In 4 years the only time I have ever used it is when he is there, and only to use the tire machine, lift for very quick repairs. My junk has never been left to sit and never been there over nite.

Hey, you mentioned the wife's convertible... can't weld/grind/torch near that. You'll screw up the soft top. And you promised the wife indoor parking. Something tells me you've got other things that shouldn't be subjected to spatter/sparks too.

Doing things more tactfully--the guys who just want to hang out, can help. I have lots of heavy things I need to move. I'll bet you do too. Bet you've got plenty of home-improvement projects that need done too... and you can't possibly convince me that you're softie enough to let guys hang out in your garage while you're not even there. If you are, where are you? I'm movin' in next door. :)


Well,actuallyI guess I said that wrong. I kicked my wifes Convertable and all our other DD's s outside so I could use our 3 car garage as a shop. My promise to her was that after the New Shop got built she could park iher Convertable in the Garage again. And I would park my Pickup in it too. Our yard tractor and gardening equipment will be in the third bay. I'vegota big yard so the mower is huge!
My toys tools and projects will all be taken to the Shop.
I've got of Heavy things too! Biggest problem is I have a forklift to move them. I can see some jackass trying to help by backing my forklift into my motorhome. Oh say Dude, I'm real sorry!!! Hey, I think my wife wants me home!
I still like the Church idea!!
My son is a Minister, I think I can get him to drop by and cast out the Deamons!!!!! :laughing: He's 6" 5" tall and meaner-n a snake when he needs to be.

There are a few guys I know that will pay me back for my help. They get an invitation until it doesn't work anymore. Then I'll just have to sick the dog on em.
I'll start a picture thread when the concrete goes down.
SSSRodeo

I prefere the simple "no" solution, but I realise a lot of folks have more tact and better people skills than I do. So if you really intend to run a legit business out of it, you can fall back on the old standby of liability insurance and workmans comp limitations, which really do exist.
That is if the fire and brimstone deal doesn't work out.

JTMcC.

I wish more folks would stop by to wrench. Too many stop by and just want to bullshit while I'm trying to rack up billable hours.

Only one non-family person has a key and he's my best friend and lawyer! :grinpimp: My sister and brother-in-law come over quite often in the evenings and sweep up and generally tidy stuff for me.

A lot of times, I really wish I had a friend who wheeled and built shit so he could hang out and work on stuff after hours. AFIRover is the closest I've come to this, but he lives in Indy and it's almost a two hour drive for him and he has his own shop in Indy.

I do have one friend who comes over, hangs out, drinks beer, gets drunk and knocks stuff on the floor-don't let him near the machinery if he's been drinkin :D

I am responsible and courteous if i ask to use my friends shop. examples,
Ill call a day ahead and set up a time when I can come over and work on something also ill call like an hour or 30 min before I come over to be sure its ok. I paid for an argon bottle refill, 40cf brought sushi his (favorite) and always cleaned any all mess I made.

I am responsible and courteous if i ask to use my friends shop. examples,
Ill call a day ahead and set up a time when I can come over and work on something also ill call like an hour or 30 min before I come over to be sure its ok. I paid for an argon bottle refill, 40cf brought sushi his (favorite) and always cleaned any all mess I made.

See there,there are responsible friends who make having a shop kinda nice to share. Guys you like to deal with.
But dare I say?
It's those Dudes that don't have anything positive to contribute to the shop environment other than maybe comic relief. They give the owner and his closest friends something to make fun of after they leave. Mostly done while they are busy cleaning up the mess, and takeing an inventory of the supplies they now need to replace.
Most of my experiences have been that the Dude leaves in a hurry because he didn't plan enough time to accomplish his, shall we say, task. The Dudes wife is calling bitching because he's not home yet, and he didn't finish on time because he didn't plan his job well and didn't have the correct tools or parts he needed. He rushes off saying hey I gotta go now. I'll come back later and clean up my mess.(That day incidently never does come cause he too busy). The owner has to be put on the spot and tell him," Yea take off, I'll clean your grease off my tools put them away and sweep up the crap on the floor. I was going to pick up all the empty parts boxes. Gotta take out the trash anyway ".

Those are the guys we're talking about.The Dudes who leave so drunk you wonder if they got home without getting tagged with a DUI.
Those 5 thumbed individuals who break more tools than the job would cost at a competent mechanic.
The Oil Dripping Slobs who park their environmental eye sores rigs right on the same spot of concrete where you step to get into you car every morning. OR drip in the path where you walk to go into the house where your Obsessive Compulsive Wife is busy cleaning her WHITE CARPET. God, I hate that lecture. "What the hell you doing walking across my carpet with grease on your boots? You Bastard!!! I just cleaned that carpet from last week!!!"

Woa, Sorry, :( I got carried away! Ever live with an Obsessive Compulsive Clean Freak Italian Female? :D

This Discussion may just hit a cord with some of you I just described.
So understand this.
I'm spending a sh*t load of money out of my pocket to make a dream shop so I can work on My stuff in. If you want to borrow some shop space out of the Snow rain, of heat to make some mods to your junk then you need to think about how you'd feel if somebody took advantage of your good nature and crapped in your living room floor.
Bring you own supplies, tools, and parts. If you use tubing or steel bring enough so you can leave some good pieces as an offering of thanks. Don't ask me to supply you with steel for brackets and such. And if you burn a lot of welding wire or Argon bring a spool or bottle every so often to replace what you use and let's not forget electricity cost money. Can't run a welder without it.
And most of all, Make sure the shop you ask to use actually belongs to a really good friend. If you barely know the Dude then he probably barely knows you and doesn't really want to say "Hell NO"

Ok, I got a grindstone calling me. I'll have to leave this tyrade to ya'll.
This thread may be theraputic!
SSSRodeo

This all sounds very familer. I have a lot of specialize tools and a great wife who will actually let me use the whole 3 car garage (while we park outside in michigan no less) with the promise of me getting a real shop for business and a nice, clean, spark free garage for her. Last year I got a cnc plasma cutter and never realized I had so many "friends". Dont get me wrong I like helping people out but shits expensive and nobody realizes it till I tell them to go get their own material. Usually that works. For you you just need to explain its a BUSINESS shop and if they want space they pay. Also never let anyone in your shop when your not around. I always tell people that I only trust 2 people. Me.............................and the other guy isnt here. Your spending A TON of money because its what you want and choose to spend you hard earned cash on. They way I look at it is if they want a nice shop and tools then they should make sacrafices (like we do) to get what they want.

well I'm currently loaning out space in my garage for a friend to keep some of his junk and work on it. he come by every now and again and works on his junk. Heck its been more pleasureable dealing with him than with my sister who lives with me.

Interesting thread. I only had one guy try to move into my shop. And that was before I had it built. When I mentioned I was starting to build a shop, his reaction was "Cool! I'll bring my _____ over to work on it..." Fortunately, by the time I had it under roof he had moved on to another job and we did not see each other around the office any more. Had one other neighbor who was always asking to borrow tools or needed a hand. But when it came time to return the favor he could never be bothered. More and more I just couldn't find the tool he was asking for or had other things planned when he needed help. :D That worked.

I've got another neighbor and a couple friends where we are always helping each other out -- lending tools or a hand. So no problem there. One secretary at work is always bringing me little things to do -- cut a shelf down to size, fix something, fabricate some small bracket. Always buys me lunch in return. The deal works out.

I think my secret is that most casual acquaintances don't know how handy I am! :D Seriously, you don't let people know that you can rebuild an engine, fabricate a frame, whatever and nobody asks you to do it. Like the guy said about giving a class on setting up a differential - then people know you can do it and it is easier to have you do it than learn themselves.

i live just down the road in haslet so when you get the shop done just let me know :flipoff2:





nah i have my own. :D

I wish more folks would stop by to wrench. Too many stop by and just want to bullshit while I'm trying to rack up billable hours.

A lot of times, I really wish I had a friend who wheeled and built shit so he could hang out and work on stuff after hours. AFIRover is the closest I've come to this, but he lives in Indy and it's almost a two hour drive for him and he has his own shop in Indy.



I would. Right now I'm just too poor to build my own junk, so why not help build someone else's?


Sounds like most of you guys have a bunch of dicks for "friends". I wouldn't ask to use someone else's shop, and if I did I would offer to pay for consumables and storage if needed.
e

I just make sure that there isn't enough room to do anything, the front 30x30 is mostly filled up with stuff and the back 20x30 is set up as the "dirty" area with all of the cutting/welding done there. The two trailers parked in front of the back doors make moving stuff in and out difficult enough anyhow.

Helping friends out with one or two day projects take enough time away from my projects as it is, anymore and my junk would never get done.

http://www.members.shaw.ca/jasonmt/SHOP1.jpg http://www.members.shaw.ca/jasonmt/SHOP2.jpg

LIke you I'm just finishing a 1500 sq ft detached garage and I have a 3 car attached to the house.
2 things here.
Item 1, where the fawk were you when "I" asked for help building this.
Item 2, your shit gets parked in the street when you leave and you can't spend the night. NO OPTION, NO EXCEPTION
Item 3, since you plan on earning a livingout of this garage, if they roll their shit in they pay your wages period. It's how you put food on the table. Don't like it, the initials are FO

I have a coffe can nailed to the wall with a sign on it. Tool and supply contribution. I pay for these. You use them, you contribute

Don't think for a second that "shop leaches" are there because you have a nice 60x60 shop (with a working bathroom). It's what I like to call the complete package. Your shop is heated, has plenty of space, clean, and it has all of the TOOLS a high-tech redneck could ever dream of. These leaching bastards think you have all of this to help them out and contribute to the community. When I think of my shop I think of my office. I've never had anyone ask to use my office to get their shit done. Why do they want to use your shop? Because they think your shop is part of the "redneck network" and you spent thousands to have the room and tools ready when they need them (and they will). We all have a lot of buddies but few friends and it's the "buddies" you have to watch out for. There's 1 reason I won't let "buddies" work on their shit in my shop nor show up and hang out in the shop. TOOLS grow legs when "buddies" are allowed to congregate within 500 feet of my shop. I tell my buddies straight up that I don't work on anyones shit, or supply my shop without one hell of a deposit. You don't have to mention an amount the "deposit" word says it all. Not letting your buddies use your shop is not rude or mean it's just plain business. Why is it you have a nice shop full of tools, welders etc and they don't?
Wal-Mart is perfect for oil changes and tire rotations. Would you change thier oil and rotate their tires for 9.95? Why open your shop, turn your lights on, and waste your time for someone that is arrogant enough to expect something free and won't go home till after midnight?

While I do not have a shop I have the same issues since it seems that everyone in my area knows I work on vehicles. I do this in my 2 car garage, its my mini shop.
I have had complete strangers stop by to ask if I could weld something up or fix something. Its due to the 4runner build up I did in my garage and others.
Most of the time I do help, but like last time when someone stopped by to see if I could fix their truck I said no, but I would be glad to tell you how to do it, said he wasnt mechanical, so I said well you need to take it to a good shop since it would be less than what I would charge you.... :laughing:
I did have a couple of people give me supplies after I welded up small stuff for em.
Friends that know me and want work know that they are going to be the slave and me the master, I will tell em how to do it then watch em work and help. It works out when I need help myself, but absolutly no freeloaders.

i live just down the road in haslet so when you get the shop done just let me know :flipoff2:





nah i have my own. :D


I was going to say, "What"s he talking about? Everybody in Haslet has shops behind their houses. :flipoff2:

I've know a guy who is building a house in Haslet and he built the shop before he even started the house. Said he needed a place to store his furniture while the house was under construction. Darn fool sold his place in Keller before he had someplace else to go. The wife never caught on. But it was all planned years ago. Now he has a 3 bay motorhome shop behind his place, but no way to drive a Coach back there. But I like him, he's got a serious collection of TOYS!

Now if the rain will hold of a few more days so we can get the forms down!

I have been busy through all this waiting though, Been building the Granddaughters a 2/3 scale Go Kart that will look like a Kawasaki Mule. All tube construction,(tubing I had left over from the last roll cage I built) with a Honda 4 horse motor. And torque converter tranny. The small pickup bed will dump too! This way, they can help with the yard work when they come to visit.

Problem is, I've been ammassing stuff for the new building and stacking it all in the garage shop and I have to kick everything outside to work on the Go Kart. Been lag bolting the tubing bender to the trailer floor outside to bend it up. Not enough room to swing a cat in there! :D

Well, I gotta go! Got to run over to a friends house this morning and evaluate his electrical problems. He has a nice hanger and runway, but no electric power out to it. And no way to pull another line off his current rats nest power box.
Then, I have a neighbor coming over to finish up a trailer I offered to weld up for him. I even supplied him with a truck frame and bed to use as a base. And you guessed it, we're building his trailer outside on top of my car hauler trailer. But this is one of those good friends who will pay me back evey chance he gets. He's bought my lunch 2 days a week for a month now. And paid me for the cost to fillups on my cutting torch and argon bottles. He even bring his 4 boys over once a month to sweep the shop (when we could get in there) and rake the leaves and such. Something about his using the trailer to take those boys camping with and they needed to thank me for my help. Poor guy has 7 kids in all 6 of them boys and he's constantly getting laid off from his outside sales job.
I can't help it, I have a hard time just saying NO!
SSSRodeo
No time t spell check Sorry! :flipoff2:

I know all to well of this little problem. It sometimes works to say "well I wish I could man but it is just too much liability" if you dont know them very well. It is extreamly frusterating when someone wants to come over to my brothers I's shop and we let them use it but they seem to think that the bolt bin, steel rack and grinding/chopsaw blades come with the shop too. We have also talked about having a "Donation Jar" ( :D ) for people who want to work too. One way to always counteract is to have your shop full. :cool2:

One way to always counteract is to have your shop full. :cool2:

Bingo! :grinpimp: Its works great.... possibly a little too good... I can't work in it either :laughing:

I'm guilty of having to mooch off of a friend's shop too.

The 2 times that I have ever used his shop, I brought along a bunch of consumables and we called it even. Things like welding wire, welding tips, liners, cutting fluid, cutoff wheels, PB Blaster, metals markers, earplugs, grinding wheels, Loctite, polishing compound, light bulbs, hell even kitty litter. Just a bunch of crap that most people use often, and use up quickly, in their shops. It probably worked out to be about 150 bucks of supplies all together, but that's the price you pay from leeching off of others.

I tell people the rate for them doing the work with their tools in my shop is the same as me doing it with mine. If their junk is in my way, I can not make money.

There are only 6 people that can use my shop for free, and they have earned that right because they proven that they will drop everything and come help me 24/7 if I truly need their help. They also get free consumables, parts, labor, etc.... True friends are worth far more money than they can use in my shop. :D

Ed

i find when your shop is 16 miles to a gas station, 6 off the paved road, and almost 50 to the closest decent parts store no one comes around leeching

I guess Im a lucky one I dont have any friends

I've found a very easy way to deter people from my shop during the winter...you FREEZE them! I'm a very hot natured person and I have to stay cool. So it's 35 degrees outside, i'm workin on the sheep and a buddy comes by because he doesn't even know how to install his off-road lights. I start getting hot and the buddy's gettin in the way so I crank all 6 of my fans wide open with the doors open (it's pushin mid 30's here right now). Next thing you know he was like man forget about those lights i'm freezing my ass off down here! So he left......
I usually don't mind helping people out but lately I have had a lot of people want this and want that. So I've gotta get the guts to say no i guess...Those nuts, bolts, wires, electrodes, and even the power bill start adding up fast (running a 220 heater, compressor, and welder)

This thread is near and dear to many of us...

Here is my example
Axles stacked up...
http://fototime.com/BB3B85691718F00/standard.jpg

Vehicles lined up...
http://fototime.com/D074FE5FF782F48/standard.jpg


and how about when you help someone out and they leave their shit for months at a time... CHROME IT !!!

8 months I had this 8.8 I chromed the Rock Ring and EVERYTHING !!
http://fototime.com/3825FA8D4FD5FE3/standard.jpg
http://fototime.com/55EFDC7759DAF80/standard.jpg


Also, I have a mini Fridge and a Jar. I tell everyone to fill them both !



AW

Also, I have a mini Fridge and a Jar. I tell everyone to fill them both !


Damn, not only would they drink your beer they would fill your jar with piss? :confused:









:flipoff2:

Tom :usa:

and how about when you help someone out and they leave their shit for months at a time... CHROME IT !!!



or pink :rainbow: :laughing:

This thread is near and dear to many of us...

Here is my example

and how about when you help someone out and they leave their shit for months at a time... CHROME IT !!!

8 months I had this 8.8 I chromed the Rock Ring and EVERYTHING !!
http://fototime.com/3825FA8D4FD5FE3/standard.jpg
http://fototime.com/55EFDC7759DAF80/standard.jpg


Also, I have a mini Fridge and a Jar. I tell everyone to fill them both !



AW
8 months??? Sell that fawker! Guarantee they won't ask you to build another!

"It's been here for 8 months, I didn't know you still wanted it."

Actually, as for neighbors coming around wanting a little help with small jobs, I usually try my best to accommodate them. I find that it keeps them from complaining to the authorities if there is a bit of "household construction" going on without a building permit, I'm grinding on things (or other noise) a bit later into the evening than socially permissible, that junked truck I'm pulling parts off of has been sitting in the driveway a little too long, that sort of thing.

Just remember that what goes around comes around. I'm alway the first to volunteer to help wrench on somebody else's junk because chances are that in the future I'm going to need their help for something. If they're not available when I need them to help me out, then I'm not available ever again to help them out. Most of all, I won't even let anybody in my shop if I don't know them pretty well. I don't let a friend of a friend of a friend who knows my friend's buddy come wrench on his shit and borrow my tools. I don't normally ask for people to help me either. If nobody wants to volunteer, I'm not asking.

Just remember that what goes around comes around. I'm alway the first to volunteer to help wrench on somebody else's junk because chances are that in the future I'm going to need their help for something. If they're not available when I need them to help me out, then I'm not available ever again to help them out. Most of all, I won't even let anybody in my shop if I don't know them pretty well. I don't let a friend of a friend of a friend who knows my friend's buddy come wrench on his shit and borrow my tools. I don't normally ask for people to help me either. If nobody wants to volunteer, I'm not asking.


Oh man I am right their with ya but sometimes things get out of controle. I am usualy the first person that says "yea man come on over and I will help ya with that lift" or "If ya need to use the tube bender then no problem". Just because I know some people arent as fortunate as myself. The problem comes when people abuse this privlage. :(

Well, i've got a friend that had a problem with letting too many jackasses use his garage, he lent out several copies of keys etc.
Finally wised up, told everyone that he was changing the locks and now there is only one other guy with a copy, and he is a business partner.

Just today i had 3 friends come over and help hang some drywall in my shop. Total took about 5 hours, but you know they will always have access to some shop time at my place. As for the guys that didn't show up, i guess i might be too busy... ;)

I've got them bad right now. One hangs out till the work begins, then he's gone (he'll call up later and ask when he can bring his project over, I say: when mine's done.

One "forgets" payment every time he comes over, so I tell him to put his rig back together and pull out "NO OVERNIGHTERS"

Another just wants to borrow my tools, not the wrenches and such. He wired his garage so my welder and plasma cutter would work, then asks me to tell him what the bolt pattern is on my tube bender so he can drill out his floor and borrow that too. I was nice and lent him my plasma (it's small and I'm not using it) the other stuff doesn't leave my garage. period.

(1) Do you find that people invite themselves over to work on their junk at your house now that you have a big new shop? (2) How do you say "NO" to those that are nothing more than freeloaders

(1) NO, I don't give them the chance
(2) I just ask them politely to GET THE FUCK OUT!!!!!

If people ask to use my shop, I have them go in on tools with me. just bought a plasma cutter, cost each of us ~$150, 12' metal lathe ~$100,
Sell shares, and whoever buys in gets to use it, if they dont want to, they dont get to use it.

I think that deep down nobody wants to be the bad guy but in the end It is YOUR SPACE and YOUR RULES. The ones that understand are the ones that are worth a darn, the others can go to he**!!

Don't even give up a set of keys to those who you consider good friends. You control who and what gets in your shop. After all. You paid for it, You own it, You even deal with the liabilities when someone gets hurt.

Friendships can change drastically when you find out if those you consider friends are 'givers' or 'takers' and their true colors can come out when it comes to something like a shop.

I inherited a house and 30x30 shop w/24x24 shed on back that I work on my stuff and house both of my daily drivers. It wasn't always that way. I've lost friendships over this workspace but I've come to realize that they weren't the friends to have in the first place.

I went in with a person a few years ago on a parts truck that we were to strip and sell off what we didn't want and need. The project ended up with ME doing about 90% of the teardown and him getting 75% of the truck. He ended up even breaking into the garage to take his 'so called half' of the vehicle when things went sour.

I didn't learn my lesson there either. I let another so called 'friend' use my shop to rebuild his rust bucket early bronco. I thought it was going to be month maybe 2 to get things together and get it back to his house. Over 1 year later I had to make the ultimatum to get it out or I would put it on the street and let the masses have their way with it. Hindsight being always 20/20 I should've booted him at the end of the 2nd month but there was a time when I was a 'softie' and let slide stuff I shouldn't have.

Before moving the Bronco in, He helped me paint my truck in the shop, building a booth out of sheet plastic and worked hard to keep the paint in it. It worked well with no overspray. When it came time to paint that POS bronco it was PAINT HELL!!.

Stupid me gave him a key at the start of the process as he worked a much earlier shift than I did and he could come and do his stuff and still have time to be with his kids for a little while each day. This was a wrong thing to do. It started out where I would see him everyday when I came home from work and then it went to twice a week, then to twice a month.. It was getting ridiculous..

When it came time to paint the truck, He did it while my wife and I were away in Ohio. I came back to the garage finding the biggest god-awful mess that you could think of. I had this 'Linda Blair turn your head and vomit' green color overspray EVERYWHERE. On the floor, On my Toolbox, EVERYWHERE, He even got overspray sucked into the MOTOR of my compressor and even on my Truck that was painted months earlier.

I hit the roof. I had to spend weeks cleaning stuff and finding little bits of green color on everything and to this day I move stuff on a shelf and find overspray marks.

It was a mess that I wouldn't wish on anybody.

In the end..

Who owns the shop??
Who makes the payments??
Who provides the supplies??
Who is responsible for accidents??

YOU.

So it is YOU who makes the decisions. You who makes the rules, You who handles all aspects of the shop that you have worked hard for to give yourself a place to enjoy yourself and spend time in.

You'll find a friend here and there that will understand your point of view, Those that will help you, and you won't mind helping them because they are "STAND UP GUYS" who chip in for things like electric, consumables, and will take care of the place like it was their own and who have a conscience.

I haven't found that in a person who is around my shop in the last 5 years so I keep to myself, I can't endure the aggrivation of letting anyone into my shop anymore. I may be getting 'crotchety' and mean in my old age but I can go to bed at night not worrying about when and how I will use what my family and I worked so hard for.

It also makes my wife happy when she can come home and pull into the garage and not have to worry if she can get into it because some inconsiderate jerk has taken up her bay.

<snip> You even deal with the liabilities when someone gets hurt. <snip>

And to add to this, I'd be very careful. If you charge people money, or own a shop, you're opening yourself up to a real insurance nightmare. IF it's a business, ask your insurance company about how they feel about buddies working on their stuff in your space. I bet they say no. It's a lawsuit waiting to happen if you either charge money or appear as a professional.

Sucks to have to lock up your own tools in your own garage, besides.

Bryan

I guess we all go through the problems with letting others use your tools/shop. Seems only age/experience is the ticket to solving this problem. I know it was for me.

Over the years I loaned out tools and had to hound people to get them back. Then people came over and then I'd find tools left out in the yard. People would abuse tools and not tell you they broke/bent it.

One new point for those that have small sons that will grow into teenagers. When my son was in his early teens he was into dirt bikes and we were always working on the bike/motor. One weekend a 5 or 6 of his buddies came over to BS/watch. Well the next morning I wondered where my chainsaw and hedge trimmer were. We came to the conclusion one/more of his buddies threw them out in the woods and came back at night and got them.

Had to give my son credit though. Boy was he pissed. Asked his friends if anyone knew anything. Obviously no one fessed up. He dropped them all immediately.Moral of the story is to watch like a hawk anyone you don't really know.

Now if someone wants to borrow a tool I have various answers based on my mood:
That tool is pretty cheap. PepBoys carrys it.

Sorry, Expensive ones I don't loan out. Bring beer and some money to buy us lunch and I'll let you use it here. Bring a couple of cans of brakeclean too. Oh yeah I'm low on shop rags too.

Yeah, I'll loan that to you if I can borrow your golf clubs (then I get the shit about how I don't golf so I say what makes me think you know how to use the tool you want to borrow).

I also don't have a problem saying to someone where the fawk are you going, we have to clean up (and then I hand them a broom).

There are about 5 or six people I help with no questions asked and maybe 2 of those I'll loan anything to. However like some others have pointed out, if I need help at 2AM on a snowy night they will be here within 30 minutes no matter what.

I have also learned the hard way to not loan your truck out any casual coworkers or neighbors. It also amazes me how many will ask to borrow your truck but when you tell them no but you will drive it and help out if they chip in for gas and buy lunch they all of a sudden don't need it any more. Or they 'will get back with you in the next day or so' and you find out two weeks later they suckered someone else into helping them.

For my weaker moments (yeah i still have them) I now have a chalkboard in the garage where I write down if you borrow something and when you borrowed it. I also try to get a commitment that I get the tool back in 1 or 2 days. If you can't return it that quick then you are not ready to borrow it either so you don't get it yet.

One last thought. Loaning tools to casual members of the family is the worst of all.

my biggest complaint lately is the mess left behind by visitors. I don't have too many friends that actually work on anything but my shop is just a 1 car garage attached to the house. I absolutely hate finding 100's of cigarette butts in the yard when I mow. Don't get me wrong, both my wife and I smoked until recently and you're allowed to smoke in the garage just as long as you use the ashtrays provided. I just like to stop mid sentence and stare at the person until they realize what they did. That really creeps the teenager next door out but, the message sunk in. I'm also lucky 'cause both the teenagers next door respect me well. They both keep an eye on things and one even beeps me on the nextel if he sees something suspicious late at night. (he smokes outside his house and sees everything)

My complaint is't shop space. I wont allow them. However, it's the ones that borrow tools and use the consumables. I get my sawzall, jigsaw, granders back with nothing in their cases and the last remaining blade/what-not is wasted.


Grr!

I hosted a work party for the Members of the Club I belong to, and even though I did not work on my own junk, we had a great time. The members who came over were very respectful of my home and my tools, and all pitched in to make sure all was completly cleaned up at the end of the evening.

So, even though I am a person who typicly says "No", there are exceptions that show if it's the right group of people it works just fine.

You all have such bad experiences. I know growing up my dad was the handiest person in town and he made good friends with all the construction and farmers around the area when they could not fix or weld something. He spent many a night welding farmers equipment for no $. You can bet who plowed our garden and loaned us a dump truck and bobcat when ever we wanted.

It does all change if this is how you make your living. If you are employed out of your shop nothing is free, maybe traded but NEVER free.
INtj

You all have such bad experiences. I know growing up my dad was the handiest person in town and he made good friends with all the construction and farmers around the area when they could not fix or weld something. He spent many a night welding farmers equipment for no $. You can bet who plowed our garden and loaned us a dump truck and bobcat when ever we wanted.

It does all change if this is how you make your living. If you are employed out of your shop nothing is free, maybe traded but NEVER free.
INtj

There is part of the key right there.. "WHEN YOU WERE GROWIN UP".. Those days are gone!!

My father was also the 'handiest man in town' and did for others all the time. He had people respect him and treat him right and others that 'screwed him royally' but he never lost his giving ways. It was nice to know that when he passed away in '94 there were some that did show their respect for him. The local police gave him a motorcycle escort to Quantico National Cemetry (He was a Korean war Vet), and there were over 60 cars in the procession and hundreds of people came by to pay their respects.

We now have the "ME ME ME" generations now who don't seem to have the value structure that was once in place who care nothing about others, only themselves. But I guess our parents generation said that about us too.

I for one would love to be able to share my shop and have it be a place where friends could come together, have fun Trade work on their vehicles and share ideas. Where the space is respected by those who use it. But after the bad experiences you end up gun-shy. Maybe all these years living in the Washington DC area in the shadow of all the political crapola has made me cynical and unbelieving that respectful people still exist. I know its not that they don't exist. I just don't seem to come in contact with them.

It is not easy. I have had a shop for 3 years and my 4Runner is *still* not done while I have built and rebuilt no less than 5 other vehicles under my roof.

If you find the secret, let me know :p

I am right there with ya DRM you and I have the same problem.

I am just a suckkka sometimes and keep thinkin well he'll help me if i help him out, then I think the same, and again, and then I get pissed.

The way i see it if you have friends that wana work on there shit at your place make them put in some sweat equity first. Tell them when my shit is done will work on yours.

Hell most of my friends have 5 thumbs anyway, I wish I had a few people respectful enough and have the knowledge to come work on shit or help work on my shit.

You all have such bad experiences. I know growing up my dad was the handiest person in town and he made good friends with all the construction and farmers around the area when they could not fix or weld something. He spent many a night welding farmers equipment for no $. You can bet who plowed our garden and loaned us a dump truck and bobcat when ever we wanted.

It does all change if this is how you make your living. If you are employed out of your shop nothing is free, maybe traded but NEVER free.
INtj

I do think that times have changed. As I said a bit ago, I do try to help out a neighbor/friend if they ask nicely. Problem becomes when you ask for a hand and everybody disappears. Or when tools come back broken, consumables used, etc. Or when neighbor expects you to drop everything you are doing to help him dig himself out of whatever problem he is in at the moment -- said problem would have not existed if he actually thought things through beforehand.

As for professional shop vs. home shop, no the same rules sort of apply. I'll spend some "free" time on a good customer or even a non-customer that I know will help someone else out when they need it -- the "pay it forward" approach. The lazy "can't help himself much less anyone else" type doesn't get anything from me. And I'll shovel the snow out of the little old lady's driveway across the street because I know that there is someone who shovels out my grandparents' driveway. Besides, she bakes good cookies!

So I guess it comes down to helping those who help others (not just help me in return) and those that expect a free ride can just go :flipoff2:

It boils down to money or the lack there of. Most peeps that need tools/shop space, don't have enough money to go to a commercial shop or buy the tools needed for the job. So when a sucker or friend says you can use my stuff, it is a green light for people to take advantage of you. Same as lending money in my eyes. If the person who needs the money can't get it from a loan place, it's because the loan place doesn't feel they can pay it back. So what makes anyone think they can or will pay it back to a friend? Just say no, and laugh like them asking is absurd and hilariously funny, then change the subject and talk about football or something. :D

I try to help where I can and when I can because I know how much it can suck being on the other end with things like your daily driver broken. But when it comes to my shop, it comes down to one question when people want to use my shop, Where the hell were you when I needed help last with my shop? If they can't answer or give a smart ass remark then I tell you may want to come back next time I need help with my shop before they can use it at all. I actually don't even invite people into my shop unless I completely trust them. On top of that I have a hard enough time cleaning up my own crap in my shop so why would I want to clean up their junk in my shop and I let them know this. I spent a lot of my hard earned income on the tools and equipment in my shop while I was going to school so I will be go to hell if anybody will take that away from me, so you have to earn my trust. So far I have had only two friends come through when I needed help and they are more than welcome to borrow tools and my shop. This takes a lot people by surprise when they ask to use my shop as I am usually pretty helpful when it comes to fixing or help fixing their junk and stuff.

Part of the reason I am so vigilant about my shop is that I also do not want to run the risk of unvitied people casing my shop. I have some expensive marine, VW and fuel injection parts in the shop that I don't want missing, so I limit access to my shop to a very few I trust.

Good thread, I have had the same problems from time to time. My solution is a 2 stage system.

Stage 1 : My shop is in a fenced compound, in that compound is Jake.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=162336&stc=1

Stage 2 : If you get into the shop, stage 2 is the Fatman.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=162337&stc=1

Nobody ever comes in my shop uninvited, those I don't want, I don't invite. If they say "I'll stop in sometime", I say "Be carefull the dogs don't get you". They never stop in.

My solution is a 2 stage system.

Stage 1 : My shop is in a fenced compound, in that compound is Jake.

Stage 2 : If you get into the shop, stage 2 is the Fatman.

A big fan of cheesy '80s detective shows, huh

http://www.shop4photos.net/graphics/251/251647.jpg

A big fan of cheesy '80s detective shows, huh

http://www.shop4photos.net/graphics/251/251647.jpg


Lol. Wasn't it you (smash) that had the story of someone trying to steal something and your dogs taking care of it...or was it someone else here :confused: If it twas you, lets hear the story again.



ALSO, after reading this post...I believe the #1 problem is, the people that you want in your shop and helping you out with things ALREADY have a shop of their own... :D

The best thing to do when someone says "hey can I bring my rig over and work on it in your shop" is,,, sure no problem, I charge (this amount) per hour when do you want to come out?
This keeps you on good terms by saying yes, but more than likely they will decline. If it's someone you don't want in your shop, raise the price. If it's your best friend thats daily driver is what he wants to work on,lower the price.

This works good for me and helps pay the shop bills.

Lol. Wasn't it you (smash) that had the story of someone trying to steal something and your dogs taking care of it...or was it someone else here :confused: If it twas you, lets hear the story again.



ALSO, after reading this post...I believe the #1 problem is, the people that you want in your shop and helping you out with things ALREADY have a shop of their own... :D

No, not a big fan of TV shows at all, Jake was just named Jake, then when I adopted the Rottie I just started calling him Fatman because he was fat next to the 3 Dobies. When I found him he was starving to death on a 5 ft. long chain, and the name Zeus was painted on the doghouse, he has never answered to it though.

Yes that was me, some stupid bastard tryed to steal my tires last year and I came back with the 2 dogs and caught him in the compound. I turned the 2 dogs on him, they fawked him up pretty good, and I got a free hyd. floor jack. :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

I think everyone is leaving out the best idea. THE RESTROOM. After some greasy pizza, the closest restroom to
my house is 7 miles. Damn long trip. Yes I have 3 bathrooms in the house
with the 2 dobermans. Actually a lot of times I would like somehelp. Most of the time I call my father who is 85. Wife is damn good help after she bitches a little bit. All my neighbors are retired, rich and keep to themselves. But nobody bitched about my new shop, and no late night noise.

Before you bitch about too many friends coming over, think about none coming over....

James

Well are story is not much different then most here, we moved out of a 900 sq ft building into our new 2500 sq ft shop in May. One guy from our local club has kind of hung around since the move hanging electrial and helpng out with different projects, some of which we bardered for with his time, we inturn would build his front and rear 4 link.. Well now that it is done, the rig still sits in the shop. SOOOOO I made an invoice and started talling up everything xtra he has done to the rig right down to the nut and bolt... $1100. dollars worth.. I handed it to him that last time he came in the shop. And explained I own the rig untill it is finished and I am payed for, I promptly got a check for 1/4 of the debt and the rig is being worked on every night until he is finished, with the understanding that if I get another PAYING custmer his shit will be promptly pulled out side. So now when the dead beats pull up and start inquiring about working on there rigs I immediatley pull out my carbon invoice paper and start talling up #'s it is enough to scare most away and the ones that are sereuos find out what there shit is going to cost and they either set up adate for start and completion or Tehy just dont come back until they have cash in hands. What most dont realize is its not your garage anymore its a buisness and they have to pay for buisness

1st rule if you want to use my shop you have to help me clean it (that gets rid of most)
2nd rule ussually min 1 month waiting period ( again gets rid of most )
3rd rule you must be out to work on it everyday or tractor get hooked to it and you never know when it might get back into shop
4th rule if you want it quick then you pay me to do it and you stay away till its done

almost the same policy

but i change the
4th rule if you want it quick then you pay me to do it and you still wait and stay away till its done :D

and i still have 2 friends that come and work on my stuff and pay the beer that is good

also do some litlle works for the neighbors this way they didnt complain for the extra noise :D

by the way my shop its a tent in my rear patio(porch)

I feel where you guys are coming from. I bought an old farmhouse, and all 7 outbuildings with it, and have since gotten into more of a barter system than a pay to play system. The pole barn (future shop, 30x56) is storage right now, mostly for other people.

The farmer down the road has his baler in there, but he plows my driveway. A local plumber has a bunch of ish in there scattered all over, but he traded me a truck for space "let's talk $ in 2008" was how that worked. My father-in-laws little utility trailer is there, but I use it for a little utility trailer, he uses it once a year to take his lawnmower in for a tuneup (thankfully I'm not tuning it...)

My wife's uncle asked to store some cars there. "Well, $12 a running foot for 6 months." He sold one and found a place to park the other one, not at my house.

I have a couple real tenants, and that works out like being a landlord. It's a PITA, but it pays property taxes anyway. Still sucks having to shuffle other people's stuff to get at yours.

I have a poor man's fab shop at the other house (farmhouse gutted, going back together, don't live there yet) and have had some issues with cleanup, but most of the time I get the extra hand to get something done and don't mind sweeping up later on. Gave a buddy a bunch of steel for a fixture table, and helped him build it with my consumables, but then again, he hooked me up with a disc braked, locked 44 out of an XJ with dyno miles for nada, and I can borrow his bender if I want to drive 300 miles round trip to get it (though I did build the bender frame and add the hydraulics to it at no cost.)

Basically, I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine. Otherwise, there isn't scratch to have at my place. And nobody but me has keys, but the people who need to know know how to get in.

-Nate

i just found out who my friends are and arnt. i am 22 and live in a 20' traler a friends dad has a shop and knew i have a mig welder, we had worked out a deal where i would leave the welder their with a grinder and sawsall and i could use the shop when i needed not just all the time. well it came time for me to rebuild a 22r and i went to ask if i could do it in there (gravel floor) and he said no. so i looked at my welder and he had used up all the wire 10lb fluxcore and grinder wheels so i loaded them up. i dont go there any more. so i rebuilt my motor in a 5x5 storage unit. when it came itme for me to put the motor and trany in the truck i had asked a few friends to help me but they were eather to busy or didnt relize that all the crap in there truck the motor wouldnt fit. so i hated to but asked my sisters boyfriend and a budy of his to help and 20min later the motor was sitting in front of the truck. this budy drives a ford and it is leaking gear oil out of the t case and asked if i could help him. no problem. you scratch my back and i'll scrach yours. ges who asked about his 22re truck not wanting to start. the friends dad, told him i dont know man i dont like wires? :rolleyes: other friends keep asking about how to tune a carb, i say man i got too many other things to do. i put trany and motor togeather and in truck by my self with snow and hi 20"s
MY SHIT WILL RUN BEFOR THIERES WILL :flipoff2:

Neil, That brought back a bad memory.
My wifes Uncle had this big shop behind his house and let me store my sports cars back behind it, out of the way, if I would help him on Saturdays. He owned a scale repair shop and couldn't get any help on Saturdays. He was a small buisness and sometimes would get a call Friday evenings that somebodys scales was needing repair. Since his helper didn't work Saturdays he's give me a call and I'd show up and work for him all day for free, in exchange for storage fees. I thought it was a good deal as I was learning the scale repair buiisness and thought that one day I'd get the money I needed to get my sports car back on the road. We were Newlyweds, really hurting for money then, and just having enough money for lunch everyday was a blessing. He knew that. That's why I thought he offered to help. Anyway, about 6 months later, just as we're getting on our feet and after I'd spent almost evey Saturday for that 6 months working for him for free, I get a call from him. He's mad and wants my junk out of his yard. It wasn't really junk, just had a tooth chipped in the tranny. Still ran and everything. I would start it every Saturday and kept it clean. Just didn't want to tear the transmission up worse moving it. I was hitch hiking to work th entire time so my wife could drive the good car to her secretary job. He called me every name in the book and said I was a free loading, good for nothing, SOB. Man, I has crushed!!! I never once refused to help him on a Saturday. Sometimes 10 to 12 hours a day. I got so damn dirty and greasy doing all the nasty clean up jobs on scale parts for him. I never let him touch a dirty part. Before then, I had even thought about buying his buisness after he retired. I loved that guy. I had never been cussed out by somebody I thought so much of. Only went over there later when the wife insisted. But only for family gatherings and never spoke to him agian except for nicities. You know, hey! how ya doin, nice weather..... That kind of thing. Never worked for him again. But, once he called my wife a few months after that day, in a bind, wanting her to tell me to come over and give him a hand Saturday, since he thought I still owed him. I told her to tell him to go to hell.
I ended up selling my car to a truck driver at work. Almost gave it away to get it out of the Uncles yard. That was my first car. I'd had it since I was 16. It was my only transportation to work.
When he died I didn't go to the funeral or wake or nothing. He never apologized. He died of Lukemia and took his own sweet time doing it. Guess he got what he deserved. What goes around, comes around.

SSSRodeo

my 30x30 was open to anyone in our clique for about 3 years, then one day a new face appeared with a buddy of mine to work on his DD, I say ok and go run some errands with my bud while homeboy worked on his car, came back to see my towmotor out in the driveway and my matco toolbox about 10' in the air, the towmotor had ran out of LPG and was stuck there. Homeboy was nowhere to be seen! his honda was blocked in so he abandoned it and took off with who I assume was the getaway driver... needless to say when he came back at 3am at night to get his car he was shocked to see that I had taken the towmotor and picked up a mafia block ( 1½ cubic yards of concrete 5000#) and applied it liberally to his jap shit car and then loaded it on my scrap trailer......( I am sure you can see where this is going) anyways he bangs on the door for 5 min or so and then goes away, at 8:00 am I watch the CAT 345B material handler load his honda on the goodyear conveyor and then in 10 or so seconds it falls into the 5000hp shreader :D I weighed out then went to the retail selling and bought 1 cubic yard of shreadded auto bodies & white goods and had them dump it on my trailer and then went home, homeboy came by about 10am and I gave him the keys to his "honda" and suggested that he find a good shop to reassemble it :laughing: :laughing

I've had similar events happen at my house..... I'll help any freinds with little
projects, but there are only a few guys who I'd let use my stuff without me
having to be part of their project... of those, all of them know if they were
to break something, they will replace it with same/new tools. all of those can
afford it as well... that last part is veyr important...... living in the bay area
is very costly, and having a big lot is premium. I've had the, "can I keep my
XXXX here for awhile-?" and I've complied..... I've stored: about 6 different
boats, all of which they were gonna "repay me with beer, pizza, beer, ect."

the beer never arrived........

I had one freind, also a coworker who asked to change a motor out at my
place......... (read, I HAD a freind) I made him gather ALL the parts before
the work started..... I asked repeadedly if everything would cross-over.....
All I ever heard was "YES"........... well, 1 day into the engine pull, he found
the intake wouldn't cross over.... ordered one.... that'll be 2 weeks.... while
that's ongoing, next day all the brakes all pulled..... what's with that I asked,
"oh, I wanted to change the brakes....... okay. next, all the exhaust is pulled.
so, 3 months later, (and summer is coming VERY soon) and this car is blocking
my driveway, I said, it needs to be gone in 2 weeks, either by towing, or
driving. you decide.............. it got done.............. but, the old motor was
still there, alot of crap parts, etc............. Did I mention that I also had allowed him to store a honda oddysey for 3 YEARS which was supposed to be
for 2 weeks-???? so, short story, I gave him 1 week to get the oddysey,
the motor, everything gone.......... saturday came, no call, no show....
I called and said my trailer is loaded with your stuff, I'll be dropping everything
off at your apartment carport in 30 minutes........... he came over, not even
knowing I had to pull the heads off the motor to move it, loaded the oddysey
with my bobcat, and every spare-crap part was also in there.......

went to his storage unit, (which was empty BTW) and dropped everything off.

our 5 year freindship pretty much died shorty after, then he got the axe at
work.......... still thinks I had something to do with it.... what a bummer.....

oh well..........

--Sherpa

My answer to the shop use dilema...... the "nice new shop" is Dad's, so I just tell the free-loaders "Dad doesn't want the responsibility of someone elses stuff in his shop - in case something happened - you know, insurance issues and all that...." The truth is Dad is happy to help, he's getting older and bored, so he asks "What's the next project?" when we get one done......

As for on-going projects for friends ---- I've been there - put a few hot-rods together. Every time I have worked with a certian few "freinds" it has turned into a huge ordeal - last one was supposed to be a quick day's work on a Saturday at my work shop. Putting floorpans in an old GTO - both sides front and sectioning out a the trunk and installing good metal from a junk yard body.
A day, yeah, right......
As soon as saw the car and the parts I told the "friend" he was out of his mind. So I said "I'll do it for you anyway, because you are the only guy that offered to help me move and then actually showed up in spite of snow that day....and.....YOUR'E GONNA PAY!"

Ended up being a few week-night evenings and 2 long Saturdays......I got a hundred bucks cash and slightly p.o.'d wife outta the deal. At least she was a little understand that he had helped me with something, so it wasn't so bad.
But as much as I like the guy, I had to threaten to have it towed after the work was done 'cause he left it outside my shop for 2 months - my work shop - I kept having to play stupid when my boss asked who's pile of junk was sitting it the lot under a tarp......


Another "quick job" was supposed to be pulling a few parts off a junker for a friend of that same guy -- his friend kep't asking me to torch apart this piece, pull that part, cut out the front half of the frame......I finally had to get flat out rude to the guy and tell him "I'm going home in a half hour - if we ain't done, I'm pushing your junk into the street and locking the door!" I could'nt believe his look of total disbelief - he could'nt understand what the problem was.... :shaking: I haven't seen him since.

I've been on both sides of the coin.

I asked a buddy if I could use his Dad's shop on the weekend to swap the stroker into my Heep. It should have been an easy 2 day ordeal, but as it goes it took until mid-week to finally get things dialed in. Not only did I hog one of their bays for three extra days, they also spent their time helping me out. In the end I used their shop, tools, time, and diagnostic equipment. However, in order to compensate them, I brought beer daily, bought lunches, and paid them for their time. They tried to refuse the cash, but friendship only goes so far. I know it won't pay the bills.

On the other hand, I've been jacked out out of tools ond consumables in my own garage. Beer and money always seem to be promised, but rarely delivered.

True friends will make things right.

-Jon

I just dont tell anybody that my shop is there,Neighbors know but since I am the loud guy in the neighborhood they stay away(so far its been up for two years).I will do some jobs but I usually specify up front that its not for free.Also I usually have a few projects of my own that wont fit into the shop so I have an excuse that my own shiat isnt getting done so I dont have time.Being a nice guy to someone almost never pays off.(But there are a FEW exceptions)My .02

Damn i hear this, we have a small shop, two rigs and workspace. I cant get shit done on my pile w/ people around. I wanna throw sparks, weld, make noise. Not play show and tell to someone and their friends, or some random drunk fawker outta the alley. Let alone have some one else bring a rig in.

What really pisses me off is some one will swing by once or twice. Next thing I know there rig is parked in my one outside spot, and they are no where to be found. Out at the bars right down the street, or some shit. One fawker left a pos van he bought in front. We hot wired it, drove it down the alley. It got towed. lol. dipshit :flipoff2:

My way...

1-I will charge you $40 and hour...period
2-I will charge you $100, mininum...period
3-You cannot take anything of mine with you...period
4-You cannot bring strangers to my shop..period
5-I will charge you $35 minimun to weld anything
6-Yes, I mark up parts, deal with it. My gas, my time, my CC interest
7-Don't try to pet my dog, he will bite you if I want him to
8-Don't haggle me over prices, if it's too much, go elsewhere
9-I do not teach others how to do things.
10-The power company, mortgage broker, banks and every other lender I have do not care if I had a slow month, I still have to pay for services rendered. So do you, period.
11-Leave a message if we do not pick up, guess what, we're too busy to answer. We will call you back.

Myself and my business partner have keys, nobody else. Nobody else is to be anywhere near my shop unless one of us is there. I will assume you are a vandal and treat you as one if you are there.

I have few problems with uninvited guests or "tirekickers" coming around. Just like everyone else has said, true friends respect your time and monetary investments and understand that you cannot stop the world to get them out of a jam, even though you would...

I've found that since I started working on all my junk naked no one seems to stop by anymore. :D

BMB

Damn i hear this, we have a small shop, two rigs and workspace. I cant get shit done on my pile w/ people around. I wanna throw sparks, weld, make noise. Not play show and tell to someone and their friends, or some random drunk fawker outta the alley. Let alone have some one else bring a rig in.

What really pisses me off is some one will swing by once or twice. Next thing I know there rig is parked in my one outside spot, and they are no where to be found. Out at the bars right down the street, or some shit. One fawker left a pos van he bought in front. We hot wired it, drove it down the alley. It got towed. lol. dipshit :flipoff2:


what I fukin LOVED was 'MEAT' coming by the other day. He proceeded to fart his stankhole ass off in the garage, and telling us all about his stinky hole, and about the lesbians he is going to move in with- since his wife left him for a GIRL.
Keep out of our shop. We dont care about the trails you have run, how much your ass smells, or whatever you have going on. I will lock the door, and wont answer it when you bang on it.
On the other hand, bring awwwwwwwwwwn the hotties. We need more thongs to add to the banner across the fence. :smokin: :laughing:

When I first got my shop 8 years ago, I had 4-5 real good friends that had keys, they helped me get it all setup, and I thought it was a nice gesture. Well you can guess how that went.
There is a guy right down the street from me with a nice bobbed mini truck, and I think he has been told that I am a crazy tattooed fawker, that pulls guns on people when they pull in the driveway, because he will not stop, and does not even wave. I am not that bad, but I do not let the local tweekers even get out of there cars, if I am home. I have no less than, 10 "Do not enter" "No Tresspassing", and "Beware of Dog" signs. I want to get a big sign at the new shop I am building that reads "DO NOT STOP, DO NOT ENTER, GO THE FAWK AWAY!!!" , but the girlfriend says that a sign like that sends the wrong message. I think it is the right message. If you have not figgured out I am way too nice, and all my "friends" have taken advantage of it over the years, but I still am the only one that works on my junk. It gets real old.

I love it - and will be installing some similar signs as soon as I make them.

See there,there are responsible friends who make having a shop kinda nice to share. Guys you like to deal with.
But dare I say?
It's those Dudes that don't have anything positive to contribute to the shop environment other than maybe comic relief. They give the owner and his closest friends something to make fun of after they leave. Mostly done while they are busy cleaning up the mess, and takeing an inventory of the supplies they now need to replace.
Most of my experiences have been that the Dude leaves in a hurry because he didn't plan enough time to accomplish his, shall we say, task. The Dudes wife is calling bitching because he's not home yet, and he didn't finish on time because he didn't plan his job well and didn't have the correct tools or parts he needed. He rushes off saying hey I gotta go now. I'll come back later and clean up my mess.(That day incidently never does come cause he too busy). The owner has to be put on the spot and tell him," Yea take off, I'll clean your grease off my tools put them away and sweep up the crap on the floor. I was going to pick up all the empty parts boxes. Gotta take out the trash anyway ".

Those are the guys we're talking about.The Dudes who leave so drunk you wonder if they got home without getting tagged with a DUI.
Those 5 thumbed individuals who break more tools than the job would cost at a competent mechanic.
The Oil Dripping Slobs who park their environmental eye sores rigs right on the same spot of concrete where you step to get into you car every morning. OR drip in the path where you walk to go into the house where your Obsessive Compulsive Wife is busy cleaning her WHITE CARPET. God, I hate that lecture. "What the hell you doing walking across my carpet with grease on your boots? You Bastard!!! I just cleaned that carpet from last week!!!"

Woa, Sorry, :( I got carried away! Ever live with an Obsessive Compulsive Clean Freak Italian Female? :D

This Discussion may just hit a cord with some of you I just described.
So understand this.
I'm spending a sh*t load of money out of my pocket to make a dream shop so I can work on My stuff in. If you want to borrow some shop space out of the Snow rain, of heat to make some mods to your junk then you need to think about how you'd feel if somebody took advantage of your good nature and crapped in your living room floor.
Bring you own supplies, tools, and parts. If you use tubing or steel bring enough so you can leave some good pieces as an offering of thanks. Don't ask me to supply you with steel for brackets and such. And if you burn a lot of welding wire or Argon bring a spool or bottle every so often to replace what you use and let's not forget electricity cost money. Can't run a welder without it.
And most of all, Make sure the shop you ask to use actually belongs to a really good friend. If you barely know the Dude then he probably barely knows you and doesn't really want to say "Hell NO"

Ok, I got a grindstone calling me. I'll have to leave this tyrade to ya'll.
This thread may be theraputic!
SSSRodeo

Well put! We have the same problems here. I think it boils down to LACK OF RESPECT. I always hear, I was going to replace it, I'll pick it up later, I'll bring beer next time, that's not my shoes with all the mud!, (Oh, well maybe it is) after you had to mention something, over and over and over. Kinda makes you feel like you're just bitchin all the time. Hey, maybe I'm just a Biotch! but it does get old.......
Nice thread BTW.