Alrighty. Welcome to the first installment of the

Topic of the Week

The subject for the week is:

How to improve a Dana 44 front end.

Things like:
Recipie for converting to 5 on 5.5 from a Waggy 6 bolt.
High clearance steering
Shafts and u-joints

Who's up first?

Without permission from jeepgod, here is a link to a sight with some info on the 5 on 5.5 conversion options:

http://www.jeepgod.net/d44625.html

Hmmmm. somebody should post the years to get the flat top knuckels off GM 44's.....


Let me get this out of the way:rolleyes:

60's 60's 60's:rolleyes: :flipoff2:

4340 shafts and CTM's would be a start........ ;) :D

Stuff that I know (or think I know):

***Do not use the flat tops from a drum brake chevy 44. They have 6 bolts but their position interferes with high steer arms.

***74 Waggoneers used 3/8's Banjos for their calipers. 83 J-trucks used 5/16" They are the same calipers otherwise.

***Not all Ford bearing hubs use the same bearing seal. Make sure you write the year down if you get them from a wrecker.

***Let me also throw in the some dodge rotors/bearing hubs use the larger spindle. I don't know which ones (I think it was an 85 that I saw at the wrecker)...but it might save you from trying to find the smaller bearing spindles if you don't have them from the start.

HTH,
SD

This is the link to the best D44 steering site, I have seen on the web.
It has every part to convert, lugs. Links to different steering arm mnufacturers etc.
http://billavista.tripod.com/Steering/Research/steeringresearch.html

However it doesnt yet have the newest steering available for the D44. I have just about finished, the final touches on the behind the axle steering that Eric Ruhl designed.
Here are a few pics with the hydraulic ram assist in place.
http://bbs.off-road.com/wwwthreads_uploads/53-673416-MVC-008S.JPG
http://bbs.off-road.com/wwwthreads_uploads/53-674226-MVC-012S.JPG
http://bbs.off-road.com/wwwthreads_uploads/53-674229-MVC-013S.JPG
http://bbs.off-road.com/wwwthreads_uploads/53-674233-MVC-014S.JPG
http://bbs.off-road.com/wwwthreads_uploads/53-674236-MVC-016S.JPG
The linkage is 1 1/2" solid hardened steel rod at the tie rod, and 1 3/8" solid at the drag link.
Of course ram assist steering and high steer and behind the axle steering linkage is nice, but if your breaking U joints all the time, Then its still not a very desireable axle.
I ru the Wran shafts and CTMs, and have yet to break a joint since they have been in.

Here is the link for knuckle twisting 101
http://www.off-road.com/~jweed/twistaxl.htm

So now stop bitch'n that the Scout axles have no caster :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Tmartin
info on the 5 on 5.5 conversion options:

I am currently in the process of building a D44 to replace my D30. I'm using option #1 because I have already replaced "the whimping D30 locking hubs" with the HD Warn hubs, which seem to be better than the Ford hubs, well at least they appear to be a little beefier. Plus I was already wanting to upgrade to the Warn shafts and CTM U-Joints so this option is practically a "Freebie."

Ok I'm going to stir the pot a bit on this one. Sure some of us know the why and where's, but bear with me on this one. Why can't you put Dana 60 axles into dana 44's? What if you could "make" side gears fit an 1 1/2" axle? What if you could design a knuckle to fit the larger axles, What if?

Let's say you knew someone that had an awsome set of machine tools. :rolleyes: What are the problems with inventing a "super front end"? Do you need the beef of dana 60 ring gear, or could you get by with a 44 with beefier axles/Ujoints?
Let's hear why the 44 sucks/rules, and if the sky was the limit what would you build. A toyota center on 60 outers? :barf: Come on guys dream it.

Curry does make something along those lines,but it costs about $3000 for the knuckles, and shafts, and whatever other doo dads.
Someone posted it on the board a while back in General 4x4. I believe it was an online 4wd and sport utility atricle.

Thanks all, this is very informative. By the way H8, everytime I see your rig I get jealous. Keep up the good work and thanks for informing us on all the trick s$%t you keep doing.

I am having a Bronce RC High pinion D44 re-tubed as we speak. They are also milling, tapping the flat tops I got curtousy of a J20. I am using all chevy outers, getting my new high steer arms from Off-Road Enterprises and setting up an new Tie-rod and Drag link for the high-steer, I had the 67" housing and 2 long side inner axles cut down 6" so that I can buy standard off-the-shelf Warn Alloys once I break the stock axles. As far as u-joints are concerned, if I bust through a couple of 297's then definately CTM's. But I am running 36" swampers not any bigger, at least for now. I have seen the kind of abuse these D44's can take with 36 and smaller tires and I think it will hold up just fine for my application.

Keep up the info.

BlueYJ :cool2:

PS I have extra D44 RC housing a misc parts on For Sale, help clean my garage out.

Originally posted by Steve N
Why can't you put Dana 60 axles into dana 44's? What if you could "make" side gears fit an 1 1/2" axle? What if you could design a knuckle to fit the larger axles, What if?

Why not just get a Dana 50? From what I've heard, it is essentially a D44 with 1 Ton axles, knuckles, spindles, etc... And there is a kit already on the market to replace the wimpy spindles for those wanting to run 38"+ tires (who doesn't?)

I could be wrong about the D50, Lord knows I've been wrong in the past....

It is the end of the axle tude that is the problem with putting in 60 axles not the side gears on a 44.
One difference between a Dana 50 and 44 is the 44 has a 8.5" ring gear where the 50 is 9".

So the ultimate 44 to me would be a shaved 44 like a 79 that uses the 2.875" tubes, retube it, add 60 ends and axles.

To me anyone building a rig for Getting It is shooting them sevles in the foot if you don't just go 8 lug from the start. You can put 8 lug wheels on most anything but 5/6 lug can be limiting without spending some real $$$.
http://www.respite.org/images/cj66dean/shaved442.jpg

Question:

The subject for the week is:

How to improve a Dana 44 front end.


Smart ass Answer: Replace that thing with a RR60 if you can find one.


Real answer: Push out the tubes, Replace with 1/2 inch thick wall Hi carbon Dom tubes, Air lock it, Regear it with Spicer gears, High stear it, CTM joint it, Alloy shaft it. Disc Brake it, Warn prem Hub it, Use gl5 oil in it. Change oil regularly, and last but not least.

DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT!
:p

Monday I'm going to pick up a Dana 44 from the junk yard and it has flat top knuckles that have not been milled or drilled.

My question is does someone have a blueprint that has the hole positions. I work in a machine shop so the machine work is the easy part.

I don't want to buy a high steer mounts since I can make them. I just need to know were to put the damm holes.:beer:

Use a Chevy truck, steering arm, for your pattern.

Ok I knew Dean would step up with real info. This was what I'm trying to get at in my post. The why's. On this board there are people who have the ability to make just about anything. There are reasons some things haven't been done. Sometimes it's just why would you? let's discuss the why/why nots.

Yes there are a few hybrids out there. Do they suck? Why?

1) not all of us can fab anything we want.

2) some of us can fab anything we want.

3)some of us can't make it, and can't afford to have it made.

4) some of us make so much money we can pay someone else to make it for us, and if it sucks just throw it away.


For those that make big$$$$ Doesn't mean they don't still Get it! just means they can write a check. I don't have the ability to just write a check for everything but I don't have a problem with those that can.

Many of us have an opinion as why we would or wouldn't do this let's hear them.

Again what if? And why wouldn't it work. We are at a point where for many folks a 44 is too weak. Most of it isn't the ring and pinion. It cost Matt and I placing well in Las Cruces. We now have CTM ujoints. Not a bad fix, but Matt runs the 35" tire class. A 44 with CTM's is a good start but??????

Originally posted by 66CJdean
It is the end of the axle tude that is the problem with putting in 60 axles not the side gears on a 44.
One difference between a Dana 50 and 44 is the 44 has a 8.5" ring gear where the 50 is 9".

So the ultimate 44 to me would be a shaved 44 like a 79 that uses the 2.875" tubes, retube it, add 60 ends and axles.

To me anyone building a rig for Getting It is shooting them sevles in the foot if you don't just go 8 lug from the start. You can put 8 lug wheels on most anything but 5/6 lug can be limiting without spending some real $$$.


Dean, (or anyone else) for those that don't know what you mean by starting with 8 lug explain why. I.D. of knuckle by the axle ears etc. We still have the 1.5" axle through the spindle thing etc. 44 knuckles vs 60 knuckles.

Originally posted by Steve N
Ok I knew Dean would step up with real info. This was what I'm trying to get at in my post. The why's. On this board there are people who have the ability to make just about anything. There are reasons some things haven't been done. Sometimes it's just why would you? let's discuss the why/why nots.

Yes there are a few hybrids out there. Do they suck? Why?

1) not all of us can fab anything we want.

2) some of us can fab anything we want.

3)some of us can't make it, and can't afford to have it made.

4) some of us make so much money we can pay someone else to make it for us, and if it sucks just throw it away.


For those that make big$$$$ Doesn't mean they don't still Get it! just means they can write a check. I don't have the ability to just write a check for everything but I don't have a problem with those that can.

Many of us have an opinion as why we would or wouldn't do this let's hear them.

Again what if? And why wouldn't it work. We are at a point where for many folks a 44 is too weak. Most of it isn't the ring and pinion. It cost Matt and I placing well in Las Cruces. We now have CTM ujoints. Not a bad fix, but Matt runs the 35" tire class. A 44 with CTM's is a good start but??????


For the most part, I have the money to write a check, and call it done.
The problem is though, that I have been there and done that. I held my "pro race ticket" in "Alcohol Injected, Flat Bottom" drag boats, back in the early 80's. I even held an unofficial "World Record" for a couple of months. But I could not, even begin to have the tallent to work on "our"(my Dad was my partner) engines. I hated not being in control of my success, "Good or Bad". So I/we sold the race team and I bought, an off shore sail boat, and I have been hands on every since.
I change designes as often as I choose, and I try to do my designs and fabs as much by myself as possible. But I still appreciate the help of, excelent fabricators like CJ Dean, because their skills are above what OI can do, even if I attempt my best with my tools. I also appreciate the fact that they dont interject so much, that the design is no longer your vision.
One of the best thing about this sport is that its still an inventors sport.
the other great thing is that it can scare the pisss out of you, and get an addrenaline rush.
In any case, whether you have the money or not, mistakes are still time consuming, and no one has an endless supply of time. However, I would venture to bet, that Steve you have access to competent shop labor, above and beyond what my money could ever buy, in a crunch to get ready for an event.
Personally I run the CTM's now, because CTM sponsors me. But the CTMs allowed me to competetively run the D44, when I given up on that axle. I truely, thought there was no way that a D44 could handle the 325 plus ft/lbs and 300 hp and 38.50x14.50 SX.
Now I am pushing the limits of the axle, just so we can see what the D44 is really all about (I have a D60, that can be swapped almost anytime it becomes neccessary). Up untill the CTM's, there was no way to test the D44,to its limits, because the joints were so inferior to what the axle is capable of.
This is all learning curve stuff now.
I can tell you, now though,(through experience) that the Warn Premium hubs, are the next potential weakest link.
The D44, is about to come into its own, at a time it was almost written off.
I will honestly evaluate and, openely post my continuing experiences with the D44 untill its replaced.

Best Dana 44 Reverse Spiral

1973-1975 on a F100 or F150. They come with drum brakes, so they should be cheap. (plus you want to replace the from the knuckle out with a Chevy flat top pieces) They also come with 1/2" thick tubes. If your lucky you'll find 4.09 gears stock. The coil spring radius "ear" brackets are as easy to grind off as a spring perch.

Best advice I can give on Dana 44RS is avoid the F150 and FS Bronco 78-79 axles. Unless you want to re-tube.

Yes, the 77-79 F150 extenda caps also have a good set up. Just much harder to find. The F250 77-79 is also a good Dana 44RR, just cost much more. These two both have leaf spring mounts.

5-760x wheel joints for those of us who don't have 150$ per joint and need stronger is an improvement over the 5-297x -Jesse

Originally posted by Steve N


Dean, (or anyone else) for those that don't know what you mean by starting with 8 lug explain why. I.D. of knuckle by the axle ears etc. We still have the 1.5" axle through the spindle thing etc. 44 knuckles vs 60 knuckles.

I say start with 8 lug because the hole in the wheel center is larger. The problem with 5/6 lug is that they are a bitch or not possible to fit on a full floater rear and take work to fit a 60 front. So take a 5 lug wheel that has a 4.125 hole and then look at a FF60 rear that has a 4.375 axle dia. we have a problem. So I say go with 8 from the start if in fact you are starting new but at least go with 6 lug because the parts are much easyer to get.

Now the reason you can't fit a 60 axle in the front of a 44 is there is no room. Take the space between the nuts that hold on the balljoints on the inside of the "C" on the axle tube and try to fit a 4.125" yoke in where a 3.250" yoke is supposed to go and you will see that you just don't have an extra 1/2" on each side to fit. If someone wants to build a really sweet 44 then let me know and we will put some dana 50 axles in it. They have a 3.875" yoke on them and with some work could fit but only with old style Ford knuckles. These knuckles have a larger hole in them than normal 44's. I have most of the parts to make one but no drive to do it.

Also on the ultimate 44 you must have an ARB or OX. Anything else is second rate. I run ARB's in both of my 60's and you would be supprised how rarely I use them. So what you might think. Well when I am driving on slab for instance and there is traction everywhere what do you think that does to axles/u-joints each and evey turn?

I know that some people have a problem with axles that are a custom length. I say get over it. The reliefe that they cut into a stock axle after the splines will make you sick if you look at them so get an axle that is too long and have it cut to the length you need if you want to run junckyard axles. $85pr to have axle resplined is cheep if you ask me. If you are going through stock axles in the yoke area then stop screwing around with JUNKyard axles and step up to something that is more of a real solution like Moser or 4340 axles.

H8 says that the hubs are the failure point once you run good axles and a good u-joint. That is a good thing people, this the point to there you want the fialure if you have one. This is a 10 min. job and all of you that are putting 44's to the test should have at least 1 drive flange with you. This is a small part. If you want to stop this or are in a comp. then pull them out and put in drive flanges because they won't break. If you run 30 spline outters then you will need to take them to a machine shop and have them broached out to work.

might sound stupid but the best way to improve the d44 is to turn the stops out on the knuckle so yah cant turn as sharp. simple and free, yah yah lose a little turning radius, but common you have a front locker you cant turn that tight anyway and yah will save some u jionts and shafts in the long run

Originally posted by wallycj7
My question is does someone have a blueprint that has the hole positions.


http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/GM_44_stud_layout.jpg

There's the hole pattern but I have not included the distance from the ball joint because this can vary depending where you measure from and how you machine your knuckle (ex. mimic the GM surface angle or machine surface perpendicular to spindle mounting surface (SMS)). You might choose a different reference point as well. The dashed line is parallel to the SMS.


While on the topic of studs, if you ever need some longer than the stock GM length (3") here's some info for you:

Here's a pic showing the stock 3" GM stud next to an ARP 4" stud:
<IMG width=190 height=223 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/GM_ARP_stud_compare.jpg">

The part number for the ARP (http://www.arp-bolts.com/) stud shown is AQ4.10L and list price is $5.81 each. I also purchased 9/16-12 lock nuts from McMaster (http://www.mcmaster.com) (center lock, deformed-thread, zinc plated, grade 8) at $7.16 for a pack of ten (part number 90636A066). ARP stocks studs in 3.475", 3.62", 3.75", and 4.10" lengths with a minimum of 1" of thread on each end.

Here's a link to some more info on the arms H8 mentioned above (I second his recommendation of Bill's site for D44 steering info):
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19580

Word of caution/wisdom to those who are starting from scratch on a D44 front and have visions of alloy axle shafts and CTM u-joints. Think about your intended usage and then realize that the cost of the alloy axle shafts and the CTM u-joints alone will buy you a D60 front end. If you're already into a 44 pretty deep then the cost/benefits of the alloys/CTMs can get a little fuzzy, but if you're starting fresh then think long term and spend your money appropriately.

:beer:

So whats the deal with the chevy having a angle surface. Is the a benefit or just the way chevy's are.

Thanks for all the great info.

The next thing I need to deside is weather to cut it down or stay full width.
:blender: :jeep:

Originally posted by wallycj7
So whats the deal with the chevy having a angle surface. Is the a benefit or just the way chevy's are.

I have no idea why they did that except that at first glance it seems like a mechanical benefit (transfers some of the shear load into a compressive load). I looked at it long and hard when designing my own arms and I see no mechanical advantage because that angle actually hurts stresswise when you turn the other direction and pull on the arm. Nice when pushing on the arm, hurts when pulling on it. Then you should really correct that angle in the steering arm by twisting it or machining an angled mounting surface for the TRE. Plus the angle is only large enough to be annoying and of no real value stresswise even when pushing on the arm. Since I was using rough cast Waggy knuckles I said screw the angle and machined them perpendicular to the SMS which eliminates any need for the twisting/ angled surface correction in the arms. Worked great so far but then I haven't left the garage yet :flipoff2: Looks like next weekend is a definite possibility though... :beer:

I tested mine out at CJ Deans property today.
He has some nice rocks out there, in several rock crawling formations.
Anyway the steering works awsome, except I drag the tie rod on the leafs in some flex, full turn conditions.
I may go to Hiem joints instead of the TRE's so that I can use a spacer, and elevate the Tie rod about a 1/2".

Originally posted by H8monday
I may go to Hiem joints instead of the TRE's so that I can use a spacer, and elevate the Tie rod about a 1/2".

I think there's an offset TRE available? Check Bill's site, I think I saw it there. Might offset the wrong way though... I forget. I'm no fan of SRE's in steering but that's your call :flipoff2: You could always have Bob bend up the rear portion of the arm 1/2" :idea:

Edit: Scratch that offset TRE idea, I found it and it offsets the wrong way :(

Originally posted by Eric Ruhl
the cost of the alloy axle shafts and the CTM u-joints alone will buy you a D60 front end.

IF I could find a D60 front for $900=$1000 (the approx cost of Alloy Shafts & CTM's) around here, I'd be more than willing to jump on it. In the past 3 months I've found 2 D60 fronts. One place wanted $1400 and the other wanted $1800 -- and these still need to be rebuilt and narrowed (= more $$ for cut axleshafts)

I picked up a Waggy D44 for $350, in great condition. It is the width I want and even after throwing $1000 in axles and u-joints in it, I'm still less than the D60's I found.

Sure if I were going to run a bigger tires than 38's or If I had a heavy right foot then I would want to go with a 60 instead.

- Mike

Names for the Dana axle that has the centerline of the pinion above the centerline of the ring gear: reverse cut, reverse rotation, high pinion or reverse cut gears? All are nick names.

It's "Reverse Spiral Gears Sets"
-per Dana @ www2.dana.com/expert

Originally posted by onetoncv
5-760x wheel joints for those of us who don't have 150$ per joint and need stronger is an improvement over the 5-297x -Jesse

Dave Ritenhouse (President of Drivetrain Direct) told me they had these tested in a lab, and they were the same strength as the old 5-297x. Yes, they look different; but apparently they are the same strength. Even asked a Dana Spicer rep, and he said same strength, just a new part number.

HTH,
Phil
BTW - Jesse, I worked on the new web page last night, should be up soon :)

I am so close to finished with my version of the "Ultimate 44", just waiting on CTM's (shipped Thursday!) and one more Warn shaft.

One detail though, I'm using late model Waggy rotors and hubs, and they have 7/16 inch studs, looks like the press in fitting portion of these studs is .730.

I need to switch to 1/2 inch studs. Anyone know the part numbers or where to get them? I've sorta looked through the drawers at the auto parts stores around here, but no real success, as the studs they stock are a bit short for my liking.

Thanks,

Andy

Originally posted by H8monday



However, I would venture to bet, that Steve you have access to competent shop labor, above and beyond what my money could ever buy, in a crunch to get ready for an event.
I will honestly evaluate and, openely post my continuing experiences with the D44 untill its replaced.



Jeff :laughing: unlimited acess above and beyond anyones money? :laughing: :laughing:

Sorry if you got the wrong impression. I'm a poor new shop owner that can't afford to do the buy ins fast enough to get the stuff I want to sell. I "make" about $10-$25 a day. I wish I had the paycheck a kid working at McDonalds Does.Unfortunatelly I can't afford to put the front 60 in my rig I want to. I'm going to have to run a 44 with alloy axles /CTM ujoints 'cause I don't have a choice.

All I'm trying to do is get people to talk about why this may or not be a good choice to build without throwing my two cents in. I didn't want to hear the same old Fawk the 44 build your own 60 from a good deal/wrecking yard thing, that is constantly on this board. Not everyone can do that. Granted that is actually what I'll most likely have to do it's just that not everyone's poor.

There might be someone that thinks hey I know a guy that can cast stuff. If I solve the too small knuckle problem I could fix the ability to put bigger axles in it. Or the Dana 50 Idea. What I'm trying to do is get the ideas flowing then we can debate if it's worth screwing with it. I know what I think. I want to hear other opinions. E.R's on the other side of the debate already.

Originally posted by AzXTV
IF I could find a D60 front...

Sure if I were going to run a bigger tires than 38's or If I had a heavy right foot then I would want to go with a 60 instead.


Thanks for illustrating my point :flipoff2:

BTW, nobody said you had to get the 60 local.

Originally posted by Eric Ruhl


Thanks for illustrating my point :flipoff2:

BTW, nobody said you had to get the 60 local.

Hell i looked all day for a RR Dana 60 and found one in a back woods salvage yard for 300 bucks! and sold it to a yuppy ($1400)that didnt want to get off his duff and find one. They can be found for cheap!

Chris G.:beer:

Originally posted by Chrisjeep7
Hell i looked all day for a RR Dana 60 and found one in a back woods salvage yard for 300 bucks!

Around here (Phoenix, Az) Front D60's are about as common as Gorgeous 30yo Virgins...

One of these days I plan on making a trip out of town to the bone yards less travelled. I figure if I can find a couple D60's or three for $500 or less than I can drag them back to Phx and sell them for two or three times what I paid (keeping one for myself, of course).

But then again, I may find that a D44 holds up well for what I want to do. I've been running a D30 w/ 260 joints for years and in the past year I have destroyed exactly 1 U-Joint (and twisted the axle in half at the same time). I've been getting good at determining when a joint is going to pop - sometimes the people I tell actually believe me when I say "if you push this line you're gonna pop an axle." and back out; 9 times out of 10 if they continue the joint goes.

- Mike

remember, other than for comparison purposes, we're not talking 60s and not 30s right now

At the moment I am torn on the whole 44 vs. 60 thing. I have both a 44, and a 60. The only advantage to the 44 is the high pinion. 4.3 v6, 700r4, dana 300, backed by a np205. I'm running a shaved eaton 1-ton rear(about a &frac12;" lower than a 44 pig). The 44 is tempting, but I can't justify the $900 for the hardened shafts/ctm's.

Anyways, what i'm going to do is machine the 60 tubes down to fit into the 44 pumpkin, add a truss(needed for my 3 link anyways) for strength. Only problem, this requires me to run a 35 spline spool in the front end(which i'm still not sure exists, anyone know for sure?).

Originally posted by BornInAJeep
this requires me to run a 35 spline spool in the front end(which i'm still not sure exists, anyone know for sure?).

Pretty sure the guys at Maxles made/make one:
http://www.maxles.com

Originally posted by Eric Ruhl


Pretty sure the guys at Maxles made/make one:
http://www.maxles.com

Their site sucks, but I'll call them in the morning. Thanks.

Totally sucks... has for years. Sorry, I should have warned you about that :D

Now someone flame me if I'm wrong... :D

If you convert from 6 lug to 5 lug you gain about 1" of width.
When going from 6 lug to 8 lug you gain about 2" of width.

To convert to 8 lug you can use a 3/4 ton GM 10 bolt axle for parts.

If you have some 10 bolt axles laying around you can have them cut down and resplined to fit a D44.

Someone out there makes the snap rings and spacers needed to eliminate the C-clips on a 297 joint and you can modify your stock axles to use them.

If anyone has a link or source could you post it???

And those of us that have $$ into a D30 (or bought a rig with $$ into a D30)..

I've got Superior's chromoly D30 shafts with 297x u-joints, warn 6-bolt internal hubs, Lockright & 4.56's...

Should I bother with CTM's? Jump to a D60?

-J

Originally posted by Mo
remember, other than for comparison purposes, we're not talking 60s and not 30s right now

and again...

So I just picked up a Ford RR 44 housing, and it turns out that it has the cast-in radius arm BS on the ends. I figure that
a) there might not be a way to grind these out. Ever. Bummer.
b) I'm looking at a retube

Does anyone have a good writeup on retubing? I searched here and didn't find much, but I did find...
http://www.bc4x4.com/tech/2000/hpd44front/hpd44front.cfm

I figure I could do the removal, but I'd want someone to slap the new tubes in, as well as check the straightness.

Any ideas of cost of retubing this with average strength DOM (by the way, people just use mild steel DOM, right, seems like too $$ and a bitch to normalize welded 4130 for like zero benefit, right)? If I'm gonna get retubed myself by the cost, I might just sell this housing and look for one I can savage on my own.

Thanks for the input.

Bob

My buddy got a dana 44 RC retubed for 250 and they did a hell of a job! http://www.wagonermachine.com/

Chris G.:beer:

Originally posted by Chrisjeep7
My buddy got a dana 44 RC retubed for 250 and they did a hell of a job! http://www.wagonermachine.com/
Chris G.:beer: :eek: Why?:eek: Just pick up a 73-75, it has 1/2" tubes and they go for $100-250 around MN. (Unless you moving the pumpkin to the passengers side.)

I can get a D44 from a 79 F150 for about $100 but is the axel tubes that weak that I'm going to grenade them easy? What year Ford D44's do I want? and D60 by the way? :confused: :flipoff2:

The problem with the later ford housings, which I just found out, is the cast in radius arm BS. It's on the dang tubes. I'm going to try to figure out how to remove it, but I unfortunately see a retube in the future. Bummer.

Bob

Just have the RC re-tubed, ya it cost some money, this is what I had done. I spent $300 for re-tubing, I know it is a reputable shop and the quality is great. I figured by the time I made the jigs, bought the tubes, paid to have them presed in and stand the chance of screwing it up that the $300 was worth it. Also since I couldnt find a D44 RC at the time this is what I did.

BlueYJ :cool2:

Just buy a pre 1977 housing. 1/2" tubes, welded on radius arm mounts. A much better place to start.

Mine is from 1972, and I've seen them back to 1970, just got to poke around a bit. I paid 150 for mine, bare....


Andy

If you need a pass side drop RC 44 all you need to do with a 78-79 R44 is retube one side, cut the other and find the right inner knuckles. I have a 79 R44 and a waggy axle just laying around, the tubes are the same size. I was thinking about cutting the one side and putting the long waggy tube in the other side. Too bad I don't have a need for it though...

I researched & printed out about 20 pages of info for this swap before I went looking for parts. Everyone said for the Chevy knuckles, you needed pre '77 Chevy or Waggy spindles for the Ford hubs.
When I went to Pick-n-Pull, the first thing I saw was was an '82 Bronco. It has 6 bolt spindles w/ 5 lug hubs & rotors. Everything from 1 truck bolts onto the Chevy or Waggy knuckles. I have'nt actually put everything together yet, but I did make sure the spindles go on the Knuckle studs.
It seems most people are not aware of this. It's easier than mixing parts from different vehicles.
Just thougt I'd share this info. There is'nt anything I'm overlooking is there?

Originally posted by Duche79
I can get a D44 from a 79 F150 for about $100 but is the axel tubes that weak that I'm going to grenade them easy? What year Ford D44's do I want? and D60 by the way? They are a great axle, just can't shorten them. So if you run the Ford coil system your fine. Just don't use them for anything else.
My 79 had a 1/4" thick tube in the middle section.

Originally posted by TNT's ROCKTOY
If you need a pass side drop RC 44 all you need to do with a 78-79 R44 is retube one side, cut the other and find the right inner knuckles. I have a 79 R44 and a waggy axle just laying around, the tubes are the same size. I was thinking about cutting the one side and putting the long waggy tube in the other side. Too bad I don't have a need for it though...Not a bad idea, just the 78-79 had 3/8" or 1/4" tubes, not what I'd want.

(Dana 60 Reverse spiral axle first year I know of 1977, however parts were released for production in 76! but that's another thread)

You could use a thicker tube on the side you retube. Since the cut one would be on the short side it should be strong enough. I think it's the same thickness as my 89 Waggy tubes though.

Originally posted by TNT's ROCKTOY
If you have some 10 bolt axles laying around you can have them cut down and resplined to fit a D44.

when i narrowed my 44 front i did use a 10-bolt inner axle shaft that i got moser eng. to cut down and respline. (in general 10-bolt shaft look heavier and have alittle more beef around the u-joints......

also great thread idea,
here's a couple odd things i notice about 44 fronts....
1. tube thickness varies, thickest i've seen is from a 65' ford F250, the tubes were .500 thick (i thought about putting openknuckles on it but decided not to)
2. i've noticed 2 different bearing caps, (one is thicker/heavier)
3. i found some of the old dodge military 4x4's (with the large 5 lug pattern) have a 1/2" thick cast cover.
4. closed knuckles suck, smaller u-joints and less turning radius.
5. some of the 70's flattop chevy knuckles are tappered from the top instead of bottom for the tierod.

here's a link to my 44 page, narrowed & rotated http://www.geocities.com/yj3qtr_ton/dana44front.html

Top

Originally posted by TNT's ROCKTOY
Someone out there makes the snap rings and spacers needed to eliminate the C-clips on a 297 joint and you can modify your stock axles to use them.


Is it okay to clearance stock stub shafts to accept full circle clips?? I thought about doing this when I was installing my Moser inner shafts. I decided not to, because it looked like it would take away too much material.
I'm saving for some alloy stubs and CTMs, but for now I have to make this setup work. I'm planning on buying the CTMs soon, then the week link will be the stock stub shafts. Good plan?

talking totally out of my posterior.:D
Dana 50 housings from 80's Fords are everywhere for cheap.
since all they really are is a dana 44 (for Mo) with 60 ends, why hasn't this become popular swap? I've done like zero research on this, but what am I missing?

I belive those d50s are TTB not strait axles

The late TTB 50s use balljoint knuckles that are very similar, if not identical to the 60 ones. If you could attach the TTB ends on a 44 or 9" (i know this is a 44 thread, but :flipoff2: ) then you could run axles with the larger 60 joint, and ends. I suppose you could also go with 33 spline detoit, if its avail. The down side is that the knuckles suck. Almost no room for hi-clearance steering, and the stock tie rod location is low, and you would still be stuck with 30 spline outers.

30 Spline outer hubs, shafts and manual locks with CTM joints.

Weak point is still the hub but just made a little stronger. Thinking about using Warn full floater rear hubs with Cromoly outers... should be interesting.

Anyone want a pair of Warn Scout 27 spline stub shafts?

Originally posted by Grendel
30 Spline outer hubs, shafts and manual locks with CTM joints.

Weak point is still the hub but just made a little stronger. Thinking about using Warn full floater rear hubs with Cromoly outers... should be interesting.

Anyone want a pair of Warn Scout 27 spline stub shafts?


how long are they?

thanks

Originally posted by Eric Ruhl


Pretty sure the guys at Maxles made/make one:
http://www.maxles.com

I absolutely love webpages that don't tell you shit.

Here is the deal on the Maxles. They call it a 44-50-60. They start with RC44 housing, and put in a D50 ring, pinion, and carrier from the Ford TTB. Then get a 35 spline D60 Lock Right for the carrier. Stick D60 inner and outer knuckles on the ends, and whatever outer shafts and hubs you want. You end up with a 35 spline D44, with gear strength similar to a standard 60 front. This also works on the rear. I know there is some machine work needed, but I am not sure where. I am going to find out all of the details, and build myself one soon. Another guy in town built a Toyota mini truck front with D50 TTB outers, and D60 shafts. It came out really strong and light. I hope this helps those that might be wondering.

That sounds pretty :cool2: , but lots of work & $$$$$$

Originally posted by Brian E
Here is the deal on the Maxles. They call it a 44-50-60. They start with RC44 housing, and put in a D50 ring, pinion, and carrier from the Ford TTB. Then get a 35 spline D60 Lock Right for the carrier. Stick D60 inner and outer knuckles on the ends, and whatever outer shafts and hubs you want. You end up with a 35 spline D44, with gear strength similar to a standard 60 front. This also works on the rear. I know there is some machine work needed, but I am not sure where. I am going to find out all of the details, and build myself one soon. Another guy in town built a Toyota mini truck front with D50 TTB outers, and D60 shafts. It came out really strong and light. I hope this helps those that might be wondering.


Your saying they put a Dana 50 ring/pinion and carrier in a Dana 44 housing?
and also your saying they then put a dana 60 lock-right in a dana 50 carrier?

this don't seem like it can be true :eek:

Yep... I believe the housing needs a small amount of grinding for the ring gear, and the Lock Right needs some machining to go into the carrier. You also have to find the right side bearings for the carrier. I am going to start gathering all the part numbers, and start mine soon.

My dana 44 front was out of a 78 bronco and the radius arm castings were WELDED on not casted. So not ALL 78 ford Dana 44's are bad. hope this helps someone :rasta:

Originally posted by 66CJdean
H8 says that the hubs are the failure point once you run good axles and a good u-joint. That is a good thing people, this the point to there you want the fialure if you have one. This is a 10 min. job and all of you that are putting 44's to the test should have at least 1 drive flange with you. This is a small part. If you want to stop this or are in a comp. then pull them out and put in drive flanges because they won't break. If you run 30 spline outters then you will need to take them to a machine shop and have them broached out to work.

Who makes/sells the drive flanges for the front 44? I am running an oxlocker in the front, so I don't see why I would need the hubs if they are going to be a weak point. Would these be something that are only available for 8 lug outers, or for the 5 on 5.5? I was considering converting to 8 lug anyway with F250 outers so I could run high steer, and to match a potential D60 FF rear swap in the Explorer. Also, would the f250 8 lug outers still fit in a 15" wheel?

Originally posted by Demon4x4


Who makes/sells the drive flanges for the front 44?

Go to the junkyard and find a Wagoneer with chrome caps where you would normally see locking hubs. Pull that chrome cap off and you'll see a slug which engages the outer axleshaft with the wheel hub. That's a drive flange. Take a couple snap rings off and it's out. Put the snap rings, the slug, and chrome cap in your spare parts bag and you have drive flanges to replace hubs if they break. Older Chevy's and GMC's that are full time 4x4 also have these drive flanges. The wheel bolt pattern doesn't matter.

Originally posted by Brian E
Here is the deal on the Maxles. They call it a 44-50-60. They start with RC44 housing, and put in a D50 ring, pinion, and carrier from the Ford TTB. Then get a 35 spline D60 Lock Right for the carrier. Stick D60 inner and outer knuckles on the ends, and whatever outer shafts and hubs you want. You end up with a 35 spline D44, with gear strength similar to a standard 60 front. This also works on the rear. I know there is some machine work needed, but I am not sure where. I am going to find out all of the details, and build myself one soon. Another guy in town built a Toyota mini truck front with D50 TTB outers, and D60 shafts. It came out really strong and light. I hope this helps those that might be wondering.

What have you found out about this? You would need to use the 50 carrier and not just the ring gear.

I haven't found out much yet. I am at school 6 hours from home, but I graduate in May, and I will start then. I have the reverse housing, and know of some outers, I just need the rest of the stuff, and the garage. Yes the carrier from the 50 will be used also to match the bolt pattern on the 50 ring gear. Have you seen a D60 Lock-Right? Do you think it will fit in the 50 carrier with a little machine work?

Originally posted by AzWebMan


Around here (Phoenix, Az) Front D60's are about as common as Gorgeous 30yo Virgins...

One of these days I plan on making a trip out of town to the bone yards less travelled. I figure if I can find a couple D60's or three for $500 or less than I can drag them back to Phx and sell them for two or three times what I paid (keeping one for myself, of course).

But then again, I may find that a D44 holds up well for what I want to do. I've been running a D30 w/ 260 joints for years and in the past year I have destroyed exactly 1 U-Joint (and twisted the axle in half at the same time). I've been getting good at determining when a joint is going to pop - sometimes the people I tell actually believe me when I say "if you push this line you're gonna pop an axle." and back out; 9 times out of 10 if they continue the joint goes.

- Mike

DUDE, or SIR,

Im in Tucson, not to far, I could lend you a hand hauling some 60s out if you need help. Id also like a RC d60 if I can find one cheep. other wise the d44 will do. Ill let you know If I find more then one for me in Tucson.

I did find a 80s F350 in the bigdeal classifieds complete, for 4k, with wich, Aircompressor...

I know I'm digging up an old thread and I have looked almost everywhere on this page for this info but I still cant find it. I have an 84 waggy D44 with disc brakes under my jeep right now. I just got a HP D44 out of an 74 F100 with drum brakes. I want to convert the Ford D44 to disc. I know the Waggy spindle has 6 bolts and the ford has 5. Can I take a Ford 5x5.5 rotor and put it on the Waggy spindle with no problems? I want to do this the cheapest way possible. Any suggestions?

The problem with the later ford housings, which I just found out, is the cast in radius arm BS. It's on the dang tubes. I'm going to try to figure out how to remove it, but I unfortunately see a retube in the future. Bummer.

Bob
i bought a 78, halfway through doing this:
http://www.zookpower.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=4418
im going with 5/8" wall though:eek:

I know I'm digging up an old thread and I have looked almost everywhere on this page for this info but I still cant find it. I have an 84 waggy D44 with disc brakes under my jeep right now. I just got a HP D44 out of an 74 F100 with drum brakes. I want to convert the Ford D44 to disc. I know the Waggy spindle has 6 bolts and the ford has 5. Can I take a Ford 5x5.5 rotor and put it on the Waggy spindle with no problems? I want to do this the cheapest way possible. Any suggestions?
Just swap knuckles out, to include stub shaft.

swap the inner wheel bearing from the waggy to the ford hub.
Use ford hub and rotor, the rest waggy

When you say stub shaft you mean the outer axle, right. Thanks for your help so far.

Ok I'm going to stir the pot a bit on this one. Sure some of us know the why and where's, but bear with me on this one. Why can't you put Dana 60 axles into dana 44's? What if you could "make" side gears fit an 1 1/2" axle? What if you could design a knuckle to fit the larger axles, What if?

Let's say you knew someone that had an awsome set of machine tools. :rolleyes: What are the problems with inventing a "super front end"? Do you need the beef of dana 60 ring gear, or could you get by with a 44 with beefier axles/Ujoints?
Let's hear why the 44 sucks/rules, and if the sky was the limit what would you build. A toyota center on 60 outers? :barf: Come on guys dream it.

John at Marko Customs runs a 44 center chunk with 60 outers on his CJ 5 and it works great.

When you say stub shaft you mean the outer axle, right. Thanks for your help so far.
yeah.

Now I haven't done this swap, so I'm not 100% sure the rotor will line up with the caliper. And it's too cold in MN to go look at my parts so see... let us know. If it doesn't work, you just need to get some 74-77 FSJ/Chevy spindels.

Thanks. I'll try to get some pictures of it and post it on here when I do it.

Alrighty. Welcome to the first installment of the

Topic of the Week

The subject for the week is:

How to improve a Dana 44 front end.

Things like:
Recipie for converting to 5 on 5.5 from a Waggy 6 bolt.
High clearance steering
Shafts and u-joints

Who's up first?

i have an 83 grand wagoneer w/dana 44 front axle w/ vacume select motor not working.would like to know how to convert it to mechanicle shift.

I got all excited thinking this was a fresh thread.......imagine my disappointment. :bawling:

Some of the links in this thread dont work anymore -yes becasue this thread is so old... but anyway, does anyone have a link to that knuckle twisting 101 thread? Im going to attempt to rotate my inners and was hoping for a few pointers.

holy dead thread batman.

the Low pinion dana 44 upgrade route. The 608.9 project (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1026121)

10 lbs of shit in a 5lbs sack jana 54, jana k4 and other jana threads (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=914583)