I know some of you have no desire to compete in RRC's, so if your one of those leave this post and don't waste our time.......

If you would like to compete but don't, why?

give me a reason or 2 or 3, I want to over come your reasons not to compete, but I need to know why before I can change a damn thing......

This sport is about everyone one of us, about all that we enjoy and I would like to make it that way for all.

So let's hear it..........

Rich Klein
CalROCS

E-mail me if you'd rather not answer here........bigrich@d-web.com

check your email, fat boy. :D

Busy work'n on other peoples stuff and NO TIME to finish my rig:crybaby2: :crybaby2:
:D:D:D

I would love to compete but i dont because im a poor college student, i only have one vechile so its my D/D and i fi wanted to compete on the rocks i would have to travel about 20 hours or so. So for me its nothing you can change. Now if some one let me borrow there rig and let me practice with it and compete in it i would sign up asap.

I'd like to participate at some point but right now my EB isn't really up to the challenge. It would fall into the modified class because of the non-stock axles. Someday!

Now my daughter on the other hand really wants to participate, her Toy would fit right into the modified stock class, but she doesn't have the $300.00 entry fee. She's hoping to save up enough for the fee before Reno or Lake Amador:)

Is this what you were looking for?

Yes these are the type of responses I'm looking for....and we need EB's out there so the EB parts manufactures will step up to help the sport.

Rich,

I'm interested in competing in the modified stock class. The two biggest factors holding me back are, time to complete a cage (are they really necessary on hard tops for the modified class), and a better understanding of the rules pertaining to the modified stock class. I.E. what will the course will be like, how long is the course, what is the potential for roll over, etc.

I'm going to try and make the March event as a spectator, but I highly doubt it as I have a conflicting event.

BTW, I still have not made it out to storage; do you still need two laptops?

Joe

I'll compete once my suspension is up to snuff, I get a new engine, and the D60 front's done.

I already break enough shit for two trucks.

Originally posted by Rubicrawler
It would fall into the modified class because of the non-stock axles.

Rich correct me if Im wrong, but non-stock axles doesn't disqualify you from the stock-mod category...

Correct as long as your with in 80" inches total width and the location points to frame are within 2.5 inches of stock....you can run a frick'n rockkill or a big ass peice of steel something.......
Rich:D :D

I'm kinda with jdjanda on this - Do you run the same course as the other rigs? I am going to try to make Reno (spectator, of course) , and pretty sure to make Lake Amador. Hope to get some idea of what to expect as far as the course, the carnage and what it really takes.

Just curious - what kind of rigs are you seeing in modified stock? Are they rule-beaters built up to stay just within the top % of the class, or are can a well built trail rig enter, compete and survive? Kinda hard for a lot of folks to have a competition only rig.

Thanks for asking

Brian

Step out of your comfort zone and get it awn...........

I did that to get this thing started now i can't stop......

Rich

damn this is fun............................

Originally posted by Big Rich
Step out of your comfort zone and get it awn...........

I did that to get this thing started now i can't stop......

Rich

damn this is fun............................

Stop having fun and empty you mail box, I'm trying to send a whinny PM reply and your box is full.

I'm interested in competing, once I get a few of the required things done(remake cage so that the seats can mount to it, change to a seat that will allow cage mounting (has to be a shorter seat, so that I can still clear my cage with my head, and fit a top on the truck, since it's a driver) Build custom fuel tanks (stock tanks don't meet the sealed cap and rollover valve requirement in an EB), and after all of this my EB winds up in no man's land...the tires, ram assist steering, and narrowed body push it out of the Modified Stock class, But the rest of the truck is by no means a Pro Mod truck, it still seats four, and is a full bodied daily driver EB. With this truck I would enjoy competing at a Modified Stock type level, but it's not a truck that I want to roll, or otherwise destroy. Instead a friend and myself are working on designs for a buggy that will compete at a pro mod/open level, depending on the tires mounted, unfortunately it will be 3 or 4 years from now, after I'm out of college before we can build it to compete with...

Quite simply, my wife and I just had a new baby girl.. so my times taken up with more important things for a few months. :D

Originally posted by Lance


Rich correct me if Im wrong, but non-stock axles doesn't disqualify you from the stock-mod category...

My rig is would fit perfectly into the stock-mod category but could not sign up because of the 2.5" rule. Change that rule and maybe you would get some yota entries with chevy springs...

Because the rules of the modified stock class kick most mildly built Toy trucks up into the pro-modified or unlimited class.

Suspensions
...Stock configuration suspension designs required (leaf from factory, leaf for competition, IFS from factory, IFS for competition, coil/leaf comb from factory, coil leaf for competition, etc.)...

Grrrrrr....so an '85 Toy with All-Pro springs, front spring hanger and crossover steering is legal, BUT an '86-'89 Toy with the very same All-Pro springs, front spring hanger and crossover steering is NOT. The two trucks are EXACTLY the same, but the SAS one can't compete. Maybe this rule should be changed to say "You can downgrade to an older suspension design, but not upgrade to a newer."

...Suspension location points within 2.5 inches fore and aft of manufactures mounting locations accepted...

This rules out Toys running Wagoneer or Chevy leaf springs, and forces them into the next class with the buggies. Even though a Wagoneer or Chevy running the exact same springs would be legal.

Sorry to rant, but the UROC rules are about the same. How can a mildly modified still-leaf-sprung rig be competitive with trick coil-over buggies?
:(

i compete..... just dont have the time to travel 3000 fawkin miles..... if i had the time id be there..... my shit aint the best but i have alot of fun, and the compitition just makes one have more drive to make it better for the next time.... im doing alot of local shit this season.......i consider this sport a big brotherhood, and one cool thing bout compititions is ya get to meet more of your brothren.... ohh and sista's too :D

...because there are no competitions in the northeast. Or even much of the east.

And could someone point out the site where the class rules everyone is referencing resides? Thanks.

Originally posted by Big Rich
If you would like to compete but don't, why? I'm scared. :crybaby2:

I need a cage.

My Isuzu is in a higher class than the driver has capabilities:crybaby2:

With some time, I'll be there.

I'll be in Moab the same time you'll be in Reno; prior commitments, damn.

My panties are in a bunch and the skirt is too tight.

When I get home tonight I will answer all these questions, so tstay tuned. I going the the Cal 4 Wheel Convention to win a jeep.......

Would the suspension rule move a Cruiser with SOA from the modified stock class to the pro-mod class? I would be willing to sign up for a comp someday, but I don't think my poor Cruiser is ready to compete against the buggies.

My'86 Toyota is in the same boat as Drew Presson. The SAS kicks it up into a class that I couldn't be competitive in. I guess I could just call it an 85.I was hoping that the modified stock class would bring "finess" driving back into the sport. I know people love to see tire smokin endos(myself included) but not in my rig. I am really interested in the rally type events. any more plans on that front?

Well, becuase I am an absolute beginner. My rig is just about completely stock. No cage, no winch, maybe a 2 inch lift if Im lucky.

I would love to get involved, but because of my level of experience, the state of my rig, and the money it wont be this year.

I had thought maybe in sept. but in looking at the costs of getting a winch, and a cage, not to mention some of the other mods, it wont happen this year....and maybe not next.

You guys might consider a run for beginners. Help us get hooked on the sport. <G>

Right now for me its a $$$ thing. I plan to start as i like the fact that you have a class that my near stock bronco can be entered in. I am ordering the material for the cage next week but i still have to get a rope for the winch. Crazyhorse unless your EB is different than mine for the fuel rollover valve you just have to put a rollover valve in the vent line and then plug the fitting at the filler neck and get a non vented cap. that is the easiest and cheapest part of making mine legal, its the cage and winch rope $$ that are holding me up right now plus the fact that the dates will probably conflict with HANGTOWN MX of which i am involved in and cant just bail out of. It kinda sucks wanting to be involved in more than one sport but its something that i will overcome.

$$ what better way to finish off my truck buildup but after the thing sitting for soooo long the last thing I wanna do is put it outa commission, the time will come :)

It will be in the super mod or whatever buggy class but that's ok :)

As with most motor sports it is going to go the way of the sponsor, sponsor me and I won't hold back! :usa:

That is kinda the prob, DD guys are a bit afraid of destroying their rig while some driver is driving someone elses rig and is 100% dedicated to the track and nothing else - but that's life :D

Originally posted by smurfsdad
Crazyhorse unless your EB is different than mine for the fuel rollover valve you just have to put a rollover valve in the vent line and then plug the fitting at the filler neck and get a non vented cap. that is the easiest and cheapest part of making mine legal,

the only tank I run is the side tank, and in 70 it didn't have a vant line, it just vented right back up the fuel filler neck, I was going to add a line, but I can't find sealed caps that fit the 1970 federal style filler neck. It's something I plan to change, but the biggest reason is like others have said, I cant afford to run with my daily driver full bodied truck against the tube buggies of pro mod, but because of a few of the modifications made to mine, that's the class I'd have to run it in, and my truck's capabilities, and my capabilities aren't up to that.

One more thing - has anyone ever entered a Samurai in modified stock class? I can't see too many of those because of the spring rule.

Here's a few specific questions about the rules:

"All Axles of a OEM design."

Is this interpreted literally? I.E., can you swap a toy axle in for a zuk axle in front (closed knuckle, birfields) but not a D44 (open knuckle, u-joints)? Or is any swap out?


"Some trimming of body allowed by %, such as fenders and corner panels, but not to included inner fender wells and no tubing of fender wells. All flooring and firewalls must be fully intact. Only doors are allowed to be removed for competition, all other body parts must be present."

Again, a literal interpretation might mean that I can't remove the targa bar from a zuk. Also, can you get an idea of how much trimming is approved before you trim? Hate to show up and not get in due to an extra inch or two. Is there a way to submit plans, like a pix of the rig with cut lines drawn in, for prior approval?

"Stock configuration suspension designs required (leaf from factory, leaf for competition, IFS from factory, IFS for competition, coil/leaf comb from factory, coil leaf for competition, etc.)"

How about a springover conversion?

"No double shackle systems allowed."

Assuming this means no missing link style suspensions, and also shackle at both ends? How about buggys?

I would be more inclined to steer a buildup in that direction if I was pretty sure it would make the rules and still be useful on the trail. For example, I might be able to squeeze YJ's on a zuk within the 2.5" rule, keep stock axles, stay SPUA, and keep the targa bar. But it would be kinda bass ackwards from the more traditional buildup.

Any form of motorsports needs a cheap class to get people in the game. Hey - how about a bomber class? $500 claim race? Demolition derby - All the rigs on the course at once! Whooeee.

also - any of the pics on your site show the type of course the mod stock class runs? That would do a lot to get folks off the fence.

Thanks

Brian

$$$$ is the only thing holding me back..... Don't have any of it, but maybe when I get out of college in 3 yrs.

I would like to compete, but there a few problems.

1. My Jeep is in South Dakota, and I am in Las Vegas with no trailer.
2. I would have to be in the big dog class because it is registered as a 1947 CJ2A, but sits on a CJ 7 frame so the wheelbase is way to long(by about 10")
3. Money, I don't have enough yet to support the breakage.

Erin

2 words... EAST COAST

My K30 will have (within a few weeks) the wheelbase of a K5 (Blazer), a flat bed (or maybe Blazer type body, have not decided), and 42s with 4" lift.

Certainly not nearly enough to compete effectively in the Pro Mod class, but eliminated from Stock Mod. The wheel base thing alone kicks me out of Stock Mod, even though a K5 with K3 axles is basically the same and could run. Flat bed and 42s are also out for Stock Mod. Even if I cut the top off the cab and weld the bed into the back (ala Blazer) I have exceeded the body mods rule. Sure, it makes my rig more capable than a mildly modified Jeep, Toy, EB, or K5/K10 on 35s but, I don't have the time, money, or desire to go far enough to be anything other than an "also ran" in Pro Mod. So, I will probably never enter one of your comps.

From all the responses, maybe an intermediate class between Stock Mod and Pro Mod would get more people involved.

Edit: Arghhh, just realized the 42s alone push me all the way to Open/Unlimited. Guess that makes me a spectator for sure...

I would like to compete as soon as my junk is trail worthy.
My wife will probably even compete once she gats some time behind the wheel of the heep.

Good news is my front detroit and my gears just showed up :D

I'm getting closer every month to have a running heep.

Ok, I am going to attempt to answer some questions here, so PLEASE READ MY POST. ;)

Regarding the stock modified class:
YES spring overs are legal!
YES, axle swaps are legal. A ZUK can run a Toyota axle, and/or a Dana 44. A Bronco can run a Dana 60 front end (as long as it's 80" or narrower) As long as the wheelbase remains within 2.5" of stock, and the overall width of your rig is 80" or less, you're golden.

As far as "double shackles" go, I believe this applies to "missing links" but it does NOT say no buggy leafs, so that is up to Bob and Rich. :D

The only way I'll be able to compete is after I get the S-10 I'm planning on building completely done. The mods I'm putting on my K5 are not enough for it to fit on some of the places that the competitions are held.

1st my rigs not done:(
2nd it's in to good a shape to roll in compitation:D
3rd I better sell it before I bash it, worth more $$ before then after:flipoff2: if I build a realk trail rig I might compete in a close by one.thanks rich for putting these on!

I would compete if I could get my frickin rear 60 spindles bored out! I've been working on them for two weeks and just keep burning up the bits! Anyone have a 1.5" drill bit that is 8 inches long or know where I can get one? I only have about 1/4" to go on one side, and three inches to go on the other side, but I think they made these things out of unobtanium, cuz it just won't cut!

Originally posted by GhettoRig
I would compete if I could get my frickin rear 60 spindles bored out! I've been working on them for two weeks and just keep burning up the bits! Anyone have a 1.5" drill bit that is 8 inches long or know where I can get one? I only have about 1/4" to go on one side, and three inches to go on the other side, but I think they made these things out of unobtanium, cuz it just won't cut!

Drop 66CJDean a PM.... He's got the technology.... :cool2:

I'll compete (this summer)...Sure, why not?

Right now I'm in the same group as the "Slightly over modified stock, but not up to Open/Unlimited" prime time class...However by May/June I'll be full-blown and way into the O/U class...So no more excuses! :p

I think most people that would otherwise consider competing don't because of the super carnage that's viewed/publicized around ARCA. All the shot's of supper rig's going over backwards is great to look at, but to actually consider volunteering (and paying) to completely destroy their rigs puts people off.

I feel that those who fall into the category above should keep in mind that the "boring" pics usually aren't publicized...And that the vast majority of competitors walk away with huge smiles on their faces without "having" to do 15' vertical and inverted pirouettes.

I have to admit that my personality is one of "If I can't win, I won't enter" types. However I have been in mild local competitions and it's a SUPER blast even though you know/think your not going to win. Then when you find out your a close second it makes it all the better.

My advice to those who are on the fence about doing it is Just Go For It! Sure you might ding your rig...Sure there's ALWAYS going to be a better and more capable rig than yours...When isn't there? But when your sitting in line waiting your turn at the gates, the adrenaline rush is indescribable. It's you, your spotter and your machine...Nothing else maters! Not to mention how much better the beer tastes afterward!

--D

Originally posted by Lance


Drop 66CJDean a PM.... He's got the technology.... :cool2:
Thanks Lance. I PMed him. If I can get this thing done this week I will be competing next weekend!

I think the general census here is the same opinion as mine. Class limitations. alot of here on the poor white trash board of do-it-yourselfers have decent rigs. Some like say daddy have badassified rigs that are truely BAD A$$. Well i have a toy that has toy axles wagg front and all-pro buggied rear. 223-1 lockers and 36's. Wooo-hooo. Ok i can now play in the stock-mod class. cool, oh wait... I cut my roof off. Now im super modified and have to compete against lance who is well lets just say a little more experienced and has a rig that will take lines that give me hella pucker. If i had the time and money i'd build a badassified buggie. But i don't. I think i am super modified stock.Not an option. Even though the guys who are well built stock like me won't intimidate the guys who are kinda modified. we have the same basic suspention, same basic axle strenth, same basic rigs except driver skill. we all know that I can outwheel the other guy in my mind. Thats the point of the compatition. But if I have to compete with the big dogs on the same lines with the saem rules then i will be smart and bow out and play with the local yoakles.
Look into the rules for sock class, be more liberal, they will come.

Originally posted by RockRover
I'll compete (this summer)...Sure, why not?

Right now I'm in the same group as the "Slightly over modified stock, but not up to Open/Unlimited" prime time class...However by May/June I'll be full-blown and way into the O/U class...So no more excuses! :p

I think most people that would otherwise consider competing don't because of the super carnage that's viewed/publicized around ARCA. All the shot's of supper rig's going over backwards is great to look at, but to actually consider volunteering (and paying) to completely destroy their rigs puts people off.

I feel that those who fall into the category above should keep in mind that the "boring" pics usually aren't publicized...And that the vast majority of competitors walk away with huge smiles on their faces without "having" to do 15' vertical and inverted pirouettes.

I have to admit that my personality is one of "If I can't win, I won't enter" types. However I have been in mild local competitions and it's a SUPER blast even though you know/think your not going to win. Then when you find out your a close second it makes it all the better.

My advice to those who are on the fence about doing it is Just Go For It! Sure you might ding your rig...Sure there's ALWAYS going to be a better and more capable rig than yours...When isn't there? But when your sitting in line waiting your turn at the gates, the adrenaline rush is indescribable. It's you, your spotter and your machine...Nothing else maters! Not to mention how much better the beer tastes afterward!

--D exactly.... i went to canfield thinkin im gonna have fun.... the once playing on the rocks i was hoping for a top ten finish.... i ended up 6th........... fawking blast...... im an east coaster so makin the trek out there... just dont have the time...


BELLY, theres all kinda shit goin on this year.... let me know ill give you the schedule................

Well maybe next year I will have my rig together...right now its sitting on jackstands in the garage:( when its finished you can bet I will be competing...I will be in the unlimited class(which right now I wont be a bit of a concern to the big dogs) but I am going to go to get to know people and have fun while doing it...maybe someday I will be somewhat competitive but for now it will be for fun...you gotta start somewhere

I think(as does everyone else apparently:D)that people are not interested because they are put into a higher class than they think their rigs are capable of compared to the rest of the field...well just think of it this way think how much shiznit you could talk if your slightly modified toy(that got put into a higher class because of different springs) spanked Lances well built cruizer??? You will never know till you are there competing:D

Just my $.02:flipoff2:

Blind in one eye cant see out the other:eek:
Scared of the big ROCKS:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Those little orange cones scare me:rasta: :rasta:
Your friend Sponge Bob Square Pants:flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Seems to me that if everyone is complaining about being bumped into the higher class, than everyone is in the same boat, and will be competetive with the competition. I'm just gonna go and have fun, and wheel on some terrain that is not open to the general public. If I win, or suck, who cares? As long as I have fun.

I am going to compete this year too for the first time. Not coming to your event though, too far for me right now.

I will be in Paragon, Attica, Rigaud (Quebec Canada), and Parry Sound (Ontario Canada).

Reason I don't want to go to the west coast yet - I drive my Jeep to the events :eek:

Once I can afford a tow vehicle, and more time off - I'll come out and try the west coast too.


Also need more expereince too before I go ARCA. Oh, and my cage is "added on" to the factory cage on my TJ - so I do not meet arca rules (single main hoop rule).

Phil

The same rule applies to this sport as any other motorsport. "Ye with the most money wins." I'm not saying it's a reason to sit out, I'm just saying it's something that people have to accept. Now don't misread this either, it's very possible for someone not rich to be competitive, but it requires alot of sacrifice. The time requirement alone is very demanding. Just about every professional race team is a business, and requires full-time commitment to competitive. Look at ARCA, two years ago, it was just a bunch of guys having fun, and now it's very big business for the top finishers.

Also, I find most people live in a dream world, were their perfect buggy is going to get done in the next year or two. How often do these things get finished? Almost never. Why? Because you see the current competitions, and think you have no chance. It's a very intimidating thing, just watch one of the ARCA videos. Now, to resolve this, competitions have added classifications. Yet, there will always be someone that builds a rig,rule book in hand, who just wants to win. Once again eliminating the 9-5 Joe Shmoe.

What's the answer? If you are going to compete, and be competitive you have to commit all the way. If you are not willing to do that, don't spoil your hobby by bitching about how the competitions aren't fair, just go out, wheel your ass off, and have fun.

Originally posted by Supergper
well just think of it this way think how much shiznit you could talk if your slightly modified toy(that got put into a higher class because of different springs) spanked Lances well built cruizer??? You will never know till you are there competing:D


My rig qualifies for the pro modified class. :p

Originally posted by BornInAJeep
The same rule applies to this sport as any other motorsport. "Ye with the most money wins."



I have to disagree with this...look at ARCA for example...how many events was there a big money name (like Currie or Evans) in first place...only a couple and sure Currie took first overall but who were the next three or four...not another big money name till 6th or 7th where Evans was(correct me if I'm wrong)...I do agree you have to give it 100% of your time but I am just saying that driver skill is a BIG portion of the game(although money doesn't hurt either:D)...I'm not saying that you can do this without maney because of you are a 9-5 Joe Schmoe then that means for the events you have to be able to take off a lot of work in order to make it to all the comps...so sponsors help ...just my $.02...again:D

Originally posted by BadDog
Arghhh, just realized the 42s alone push me all the way to Open/Unlimited. Guess that makes me a spectator for sure...

:crybaby2:

Well put 35's on it then, and enter. You could run all three classes, just change your tires!
:D

Originally posted by Supergper
[B]



...sure Currie took first overall but who were the next three or four...not another big money name till 6th or 7th where Evans was(correct me if I'm wrong).../B]

Well that is the point of having a season, not to win one event, but to be the overall points winner. That's were the deep pockets come in, staying competitive through out the season.

you would like to compete, but..... ....i'm just a poser...:flipoff2:....actually, i'm redoin my TJ just for this:smokin:

Most of the competitions are at least a couple of days drive from here and I can't take that much time off work to compete. I am working on something that should be able to be competitive in the pro-modified class but the travel time and cost will still kill me. I doubt I'll compete this year but you may just see me a couple of times next year.

I notice that the tire size limit makes no reference to vehicle type but a 35" tire on a fullsize isn't much of a jump from stock.

ditto on the 2.5" rule. My Heep is still the factory wheelbase but the springs are more than 2.5" longer than stock. I'm still thinking about it but if I have to run in a higher class I'm not sure it's ready. :jeep:

I'm not that worried what class I'm put into. Going back to the top 10 in the first CalRocs I saw 3 of the finnalists with leaf springs, four with 37's, four with 38.5's, and one with 35's. Just look at all of the top tens and first places Chris Durham has with his leaf sprung J20 with 37MTR's. Now just going by the looks of these results I think if you are a good driver and have an even better spotter you can go really far in these comps. There was alot of big bad ass rigs the competed that just didnt finish well, saw at least 2 with Rockwells, a bunch with 42+, big horse power......
This theory could all change by the next comp, but if I had the cash I would be compiting in Victorville....

Just have fun.....and GET IT

:bounce:

I'm IN, just as soon as when I am done fabbing my 40. :rasta:

Here it is for me. No can afford fee. Shit I don't get in these things thinking I'm going to win or anything along those lines. I do it as fun ;) And, if something breaks, I continue on to put on one hell of a show (ask those who were at the Chico Event this past summer) Puched and shot the front end about 4-5 feet in the air :D :D :D. I still finished the rock and didn't have to get yanked off. I managed like 5th or 6th on the ramp :) and my front diff and R&P exploded in the mud just as I was on my way up and out :( But hell it was FUN and that what I want to do, but money is keeping me out.

Do a cheap ass class wh for like $20 a rig and you win nothing. Just bragging rights. I'd be at the two northern events with my Scout then and not just as a spectator ;)

Originally posted by Lance
As long as the wheelbase remains within 2.5" of stock, and the overall width of your rig is 80" or less, you're golden.

well, right there it says I'm screwed... my wheelbase isn't within 25.0" of stock

Who's gonna be the first to have a fullsize class? :D :D :D

Lets see where do I start.
My D60 front isnt finished.
Im still working out the bugs from my engine swap.
I need to lower my center of gravity.
I spent my entry money on on beer.
I work too many hours to support, and fab a competition rig.
I have no shop to do modifications.
I dont have the experience that the top drivers have.
I have trouble getting the time off for competitions.
My Jeep is my second car, and a daily driver.
It scares the piss out of me.
I cant compete with the high dollar rigs.
I cant qualify my rig in the stock class.
Im tired of Kelly kicking my ass, every time someone sets up cones, on a rock face.


With all that said, Ill see ya in a few weeks, I plan on wheeling on Sunday this time.
Anything can be justified with excuses.
I hear so many people say, If I only had a chance to compete with those guys, I could,........ "Yeah Right". If you want to compete youll find a way to make it happen.
CalROCS is the way that guys who have been looking for a chance, to give it their best shot, can finally, "Get it Awn".

Originally posted by Curtis
Here it is for me. No can afford fee. Shit I don't get in these things thinking I'm going to win or anything along those lines. I do it as fun ;) And, if something breaks, I continue on to put on one hell of a show (ask those who were at the Chico Event this past summer) Puched and shot the front end about 4-5 feet in the air :D :D :D. I still finished the rock and didn't have to get yanked off. I managed like 5th or 6th on the ramp :) and my front diff and R&P exploded in the mud just as I was on my way up and out :( But hell it was FUN and that what I want to do, but money is keeping me out.

Do a cheap ass class wh for like $20 a rig and you win nothing. Just bragging rights. I'd be at the two northern events with my Scout then and not just as a spectator ;)

Simply a $ thang! Most of you wouldn't understand!! I got my rig to where it is now, because I used to have a fast cash job (bartending) now I have a career job and uncle sam Fucks me up the ass in taxes! I just can't make the money go that far anymore! Soon though! I agree make a cheap ass class and you win nothing just bragging rights!!

I'd like to compete, but my rig is too heavy. I run a 94 fullsize bronco sitting on 1 tons and coilovers. The thing performs great and has leather seats, great AC, and hot heat. It makes for very comfy trailriding. I really want to tube up an EB to compete in. But, even then I'll be limited to the number of comps I run because I live in NC.
I am looking into running some of these events at Jellico that I've been hearing about.

Originally posted by Charly
...because there are no competitions in the northeast. Or even much of the east.

AMEN brother! Bill and I are just kinda talking about this - why are there no competitions in the north east??!? I know here in Canada there are some home brew type competitions starting in Ontario, but New England is a lot closer to us. If there was one in Maine or so we would be tempted to give it a shot. Is it because of the terrain (more tellico ish in NE?), because of the venues (not spectator friendly), or is there simply not enough interest outside of the southwest?

BTW Charly, Bill and I are still considering a poker run rockathon type event (6 - 10 rigs), would you and some of your friends be interested in that? We tried it last year, but got shut out of the woods (due to lack of rain) for 6 weeks right when it was going to be on.

Chad

38's and Stock Spicer Axles = not very fun time
I am saving form warn's and CTM's then i can compeat!

I think it would be kinda neat to have a class/trails based on geographic location.

Out here on the east coast we run rocky trails covered with mud and tons of stuff that gives you loose traction. What generally works here is big tires, horsepower, lots of clearance and a heavy right foot to name a few. Generally the rigs here are much heavier than the ones on the west coast but work great for our terrain.

If you take a truck built for east coast stuff it probably isn't going to be as successfull as the trucks built for the Competitions....most of us barely afford the one truck we wheel with let alone building one just for competitions.

Hey, if you move the event out here I'll sign up in a heartbeat :P
As the sport progresses it'd be awesome to see east coast venues on the schedule...then you'll really need a well rounded vehicle!

CJ

Originally posted by CJ Lagos
99 TJ in Progress: Chevy 350/NV4500/Atlas II, Coilover Suspension, 2.5ton Rockwells, 42x15" TSLs
CJ

DAYUM! :eek:

Got a link to the build up? That sounds COOL.

Phil
With a wimpy set of one-ton axles...

Originally posted by welndmn
38's and Stock Spicer Axles = not very fun time
I am saving form warn's and CTM's then i can compeat!

I don't have my alloys or CTM's yet and I'll be running the competition. . . . ith spares readily available.

I plan on competeing when I get my rig done but then again I am going to be on Dually-fullsize axles with Hummer rims so that means I would hit every cone on the course. And if I did enter it would just be for fun. I mean come awn guys. Are you really in this sport for the money??????? I guess it sounds like more fun to me to go out and compete one weekend a month and show off for all the wanabees rather than head into the mountains were there is nobody and break the same shit. Hell my rig won't even be streetable so the only time I get to show it off is going to be on the trails and what better place to show it off at than at a competition. It is fun to watch the buggies take on a sweet line but I like it even better when you see a somewhat still factory rig put the pedal to the floor and hammer there way up. Just my $.02

Originally posted by Big Rich
Yes these are the type of responses I'm looking for....and we need EB's out there so the EB parts manufactures will step up to help the sport.

Ilike to wheel my EB... but have no desire to peel it apart like a bannana...these new trails for ARCA and such are so wild that alot of rigs with body panels have very little business poking around on them. I like to get my asshole into a pucker and all that other jazz, but I hate the idea of ripping my rig apart. I don't mean dings I would be scared of ripping the body from the mounts, peeling back the rear quarters and such...

Well, because it's hard to honest when I'm judging myself:D

Actually, I had a talk with Jdjanda about competing about a month ago and we discussed the possibility of him competing. I, having seen first hand the carnage from the first event, had not given it a second thought about competing. However, since I read that the modified stock class will run a different course, I started reading into the rules a bit. I am actually very close to being able to fit into this catagory. Although, I do have a couple of questions.
It says spring mounting point within 2.5" fore and aft--Does this mean both front mount and shackle mount? For instance, I moved my front mount forward about 2.5" and the front shackle mount about 2" backwards(I'm SR). Would this fall into this catagory?
Note to people who said that they could not compete due to 2.5" or longer springs: If you go here (http://www.calrocs.com/rules.html) you will be able to read that the sping length DOES NOT MATTER!

Now, my next delima, I was at 102" wb with 100" being stock. I don't know exactly what my new wb will be yet. I think around 103ish. However, I could overcome this for an event by flipping my wagoneer springs around the shorten the wb a bit.

Thirdly, I'm still building this thing and I'm enjoying the judging experiance. I don't know if I'll fit into the 80" wide measurement though. I was at 79" and I went just a bit wider but more backspacing so I might make it (Crossing fingers). I also have very little OR seat time in my Scout and it wheels alot better than the Toyotas that I've owned but I would like to get some more experiance under my belt. I also want to see this new course. I saw the last one that Bob conjured up and if it's too similar--> no thanks. Two words: Wicked Rollovers!

And last of all, $$$...or lack thereof:(

I *Might* try competing next season though...I really want to Judge this entire season. BTW, I can compete right? I'm not disquailified because I have judged before right?

-Joel

'Cause I don't do rocks ;)


On a more serious note, I think it would be a tremendous mistake to adapt the rules to the trucks, rather than the other way around. The suspension, wheelbase, track width, & other limitations are there for a reason. And if you allow someone with an '86 Toy to do something "because it ends up just like an '85", you have to allow the same kind of mods elsewhere. You've opened up an entirely different can of worms. If it's okay to SAS an '86 Toy then coil-springing a CJ would have to be okay too. See where that could lead?

Run the rules you have in place & pay attention this year. Are they fair? Did they accomplish what you set out to do? If not, tweak 'em a bit - not to get so&so down a class, but to make things as fair & fun as possible. Eventually, people will start to have CALROCS rules in mind when they do their buildups. It'll change their choice of vehicles in some instances. It'll certainly make them think twice about taller tires & custom suspensions. Believe me, it happened here with mud. We have people who have built dedicated mud race machines for the VERY lowest class - even know guys in IL who've built dedicated racers for a trophy-only class. And even if it's not a dedicated competition machine, they can keep CALROCS rules in mind when building their weekend wheelin' machine, since they might just want to compete every so often.

As for the entry fee, you MIGHT want to consider a lower fee for next year, but see how '02 goes first. I just INCREASED the entry fee at my mud races because I'm getting TOO MANY entries & the day gets too long (in my case, we allow folks to run multiple classes & my goal is not to get fewer trucks, but to have a lower percentage entered in multiple classes).

Never be afraid to come on here & ask these kinds of questions. But, writing rules is not a popularity contest. It's not a democracy. You have to maintain the rules based on what you want to accomplish, no matter who that ticks off. 'Cause the minute you allow popular opinion to control the rules is the day the rules get OUT OF control. So, gather up the opinions. But, in the end do what's really best for the sport.

TEX

I would be competing but my rig is still in 2 pieces.....Mainly a 69 Landcruiser and a 78 Chevy 3/4 ton. ;) But once its done.......it's AWN!!!!! :D

Originally posted by TEX
'Cause I don't do rocks ;)


On a more serious note, I think it would be a tremendous mistake to adapt the rules to the trucks, rather than the other way around. The suspension, wheelbase, track width, & other limitations are there for a reason. And if you allow someone with an '86 Toy to do something "because it ends up just like an '85", you have to allow the same kind of mods elsewhere. You've opened up an entirely different can of worms. If it's okay to SAS an '86 Toy then coil-springing a CJ would have to be okay too. See where that could lead?



I agree with Tex. If an 86 Toy could compete with a SAS then a 92 wrangler could put on TJ coils and arms to compete. Where do you draw the line?

$$. I'd love to compete, but it is more for fun for me and that's too much money to spend for a run (for me anyway).

Well I seriously would like to compete, BUT I am too poor to be able to cut down my 60 and 70. So my overall width puts me out of the stock class.

Oh well, guess I will have to keep working in the events instead of driving in the events. Cool with me!

Originally posted by ChadLloyd


AMEN brother! Bill and I are just kinda talking about this - why are there no competitions in the north east??!? I know here in Canada there are some home brew type competitions starting in Ontario, but New England is a lot closer to us. If there was one in Maine or so we would be tempted to give it a shot. Is it because of the terrain (more tellico ish in NE?), because of the venues (not spectator friendly), or is there simply not enough interest outside of the southwest?

BTW Charly, Bill and I are still considering a poker run rockathon type event (6 - 10 rigs), would you and some of your friends be interested in that? We tried it last year, but got shut out of the woods (due to lack of rain) for 6 weeks right when it was going to be on.

Chad

I've been thinking of doing something small scale here. I plan those weekend long wheelfest's, but would be interested in doing a small competition.

And I agree, Maine is similar to the pics I've seen of Tellico.

Yeah, I'd definitely be interested, and some of my friends too. When are ya thinking?

As soon as it's warm we will be doing my drivetrain swap, and he will be doing his (he's going 360/LPG, 435/203 /20 with a 14 bolt rear and 44 front). Last week or so of August we are going on a 7-10 day trek across northern Maine.

So let us know.

I'm considering approaching a couple of the paper companies about the competition idea.

At this time we are evaluating what our options are. Matt the guy I spot for has a fairly stock long arm TJ with 35's We cannot run this thing in Pro rock, and in Calrocs, due to the 2.5" relocation rule. We have competed in Bob hazel's events for the last two years. At this time we will have to remove the long arm kit to compete. The check was "in the mail" for both events. but due to the rules as I said Matt is rethinking. We may put short arms on it? I don't know.

The part that bugs me is Matt has a stock wheelbase TJ with a commonly available lift kit. not some one off deal. How many TJ's with 35's have a long arm kit? most of them. Our buddies in a Toyota that took 6th place in Bob hazel's modified stock class can't compete because they have a similar typical Toyota mod, that puts the shackle hanger in a not OK spot.

Another concern is Matt has bobbed his fenders. I agree & understand the need to keep stock modified Jeeps looking like Jeeps, Toyotas, Toyotas etc. What is OK what's not? Do we bring yellow duct tape just in case? I can't afford to haul my crap to J.V. and back to find out we're d/qued.

Rich, Off the topic of my reply. I see a lot of people say they can't afford the entry. All I can say is if you can't afford a couple hundred bucks, how are you going to fix your rig if it broke? How well maintained is something that the owner can't afford the entry. Don't sweat the entry fee. I can't afford it now and my rigs apart. When I get it back together a couple/few hundred? no biggie.

I'm like 2" over the 80" rule and I have full hydro steering, but guess what folks, I'm gonna compete. Not out west this year, but I'm doing Attica and hopefully a couple others and I'll be hitting the midwest 4wheel jamborees for their rock courses. I'm not super built, but I'm not mildly built enough to run in the stock classes anywhere, but that's alright cuz I just wanna show folks that I know how to drive. Entry fees are gonna kill me, especially being a broke ass college kid. I'll manage and I'll meet a buncha great folks and things will all come out in the wash.

Easy

Originally posted by BornInAJeep
The same rule applies to this sport as any other motorsport. "Ye with the most money wins." I'm not saying it's a reason to sit out, I'm just saying it's something that people have to accept. Now don't misread this either, it's very possible for someone not rich to be competitive, but it requires alot of sacrifice. The time requirement alone is very demanding. Just about every professional race team is a business, and requires full-time commitment to competitive. Look at ARCA, two years ago, it was just a bunch of guys having fun, and now it's very big business for the top finishers.

Also, I find most people live in a dream world, were their perfect buggy is going to get done in the next year or two. How often do these things get finished? Almost never. Why?

We haven't had any Rock Competitions up here, but we do have 4x4 racing. 100 yard dirt/sand drags, mud-bogs, single-rig obstacle races, and multi-rig "Baja" races.

A "friend" let me borrow his race Scout for a weekend of racing.. someone gave me a few left-over carcasses.. and I was hooked.

Spent 6-9 months of "getting ready" - stripping the donors, rebuilding the trans, rollcage, etc.

Spent one hellish week putting it all together after work (worked on the rig from about 5pm until 4am most nights.. saw the sun rise a couple times). Friday night when I came home from work I had a stripped body tub (firewall back) sitting on a bare frame.

9 days later, Sunday afternoon, I drove it about 5' before I smoked the transmission. :D (4 rebuild attempts later, it worked and I was off to the races).

I had $1500 into my rig TOTAL when I tow-bar'd it to my first race.

I didn't win. I did have fun though.

Heck, I don't think I've won *yet* even with closer to $10,000 into the rig now (funny how these things happen..). OTOH, my GF has a couple first place finishes in the Women's class.

I'm usually elated when I get 3rd place.

We do have different classes to try to keep everyone roughly competitive.

In the drags it's easy - we have general classes, and then further break 'em down by brackets (cid/lbs).

In the Obstacle and Baja (which is what I built my rig to run) it's a little different. We have "Sportsman" class which is all stock 4/6/8, all Street/Trail, and all "low end Race Cars" (Sportsman) rigs.

Then there's the Competion Modified class (roller motors are the big allowance), then X-Class (Nitrous, blowers, etc). There's also a LWB class which (IIRC) has Sportsman and Comp Mod rigs all together.

It works well enough and there's a class for everyone - right down to Bone Stock.

On the $$ issue.. our races are usually around $20, plus $5-$10 per additional event beyond the first (that is, $20 to drag race one bracket, $5 more to run another bracket, then $10 to run the Obstacle race..)

Not $300.

Then again, we race for trophies unless some vendor (bar) wants to sponsor the race. I won $50 once for fastest reaction time in the drags.

But we're all in it for the fun (or most of us are) and we try to keep it relatively inexpensive.

I've seen stock CJ7s win Bajas against ex dez racing trucks... sometimes the turtle wins because the jackrabbit breaks. Other times the turtle just gets lapped! :D

I drive my rig to have a good time - I don't drive it to destroy it. I enjoy that. Besides, ya gotta finish to win.. and more important, if I break it, my GF can't run.. and then she won't be happy. :D she gets even more unhappy when she realizes I'm going to disappear into the shop for the next week to patch it back together. :D

I will compete in Kremmling this June because they have two classes 36 and under and 36 and over...

That is enough for me... I run a pretty standard 99TJ reverse pinion 9 front, arb dana 44, detroit, auto 4.56 and an atlas and 35 mt/rs with a short arm 4" 1"BL. Not too modified in today's day and age.

What interests me is FUN the course is viewable by all spectators, there are vendors, and it is has down to earth feel.

I have talked to the Gremillon's at Montrose and Kremmling and for the most part they think that it used to be a group of people having fun...

Now that everyone is pulling up with NASCAR quality 4 wheel steering rigs it has gone from "what I did in my garage" to "what can I pay someone to build"

I am not knocking, Cambell, Avalanche, Fat City, Scorpion or anything REALLY talented fabricators... But what is has come down to is anyone can buy into the sport with enough credit...

Not to say that some of the purchasers of those rigs are cool dudes, but the guy who spends 20gs or more on axles acts a little different than guy who takes a 14 bolt and a 60 and slaps under something.

donning flame retardent material...
:beer:

Originally posted by Big Rich


If you would like to compete but don't, why?

give me a reason or 2 or 3, I want to over come your reasons not to compete, but I need to know why before I can change a damn thing......




Reasons:

#1 I sold my axles, i need $$$$ to re-gear and lock my new 60 and 70

#2 Oh yeah, i sold my tires too... so i need tires.

#3 I've tested my cab 3 times, so unless i get a cage, i'll kill myself the next time i have a gravity problem. so i need a cage

So unless you want to fund my habit [hint hint] i will just have to take my own sweet time re-vamping my junk... unless of course my employer pitches in... :rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure that if yo usupply beer, burnt tri tip, and tubing Mike and I can help you out with the cage :D

right now I am a)afraid to wreck my wheeling vehicle b)have no cage or harness and finally c)way out of my depth on some of the obstacles involved. oh yeah d) stuck in ontario

I agree with what Drew Persson said back on page 1. I'd love to compete, definetly not this season, but possibly next. Having done the SAS on my tacoma I'm bumped up into a much higher class of competition

I said this before and I got a semi-nasty reply telling me how you can't keep changing the rules for little side cases here and there. Well, you asked for everyones input and so here is mine. Seems I'm not the only one this time.

I won't be competing until the rules change to put me in the weakling class or until I find more money to spend on my rig to really beef it up and after I accumulate much more behind the wheel experience.

Originally posted by Monkeyboy
I'm pretty sure that if yo usupply beer, burnt tri tip, and tubing Mike and I can help you out with the cage :D

I'll take you up on that, need to build my cage after March, you game?

Originally posted by BigBadBob
I won't be competing until the rules change to put me in the weakling class

I think you'll be waiting a while..... ;)

from all that I have seen you will need fuel injection....

I hope to add this to my rig soon.

I think the roll over factor scares a lot of peopple away.


Could a safty line be added at the worst spots to prevent roll overs ?

DONT SHOOT ME it was just a idea.
you could make the safty line optional
and see if it was used.

I might give it a try but I need a cage. And I have to get some 35's, cause those 38's will bump me up.:D

Are SOA OK for the Modified Stock class?

And I can't find how much it costs to enter.

Maybe I could explicitly state what some are saying in a round about way:

It seems like more and more rock crawling competitions are set up for the express purpose of causing rollovers. For this reason, it is almost as if you need a disposable vehicle in order to compete - something that you don't mind if it gets completely written off during an event.

I'm wondering if there is going to be any change in philosophy in how the gates are laid out in the modified stock class? Or is it going to be the same 'try not to roll' type of setup, just setup for smaller tires? I'm suggesting that this is how you might want to go if your intention is to entice people who are now sitting on the fence, based on what I am 'hearing ' in this thread.

I'm not complaining, do it whatever way you want, but if you are looking to entice people who are sitting on the edge right now, my own personal opinion, for whatever little it is worth, is set up the modified stock class so that it is just as HARD (in terms of skill required and hard on drive train components), but has less risk of rollover. It sounds to me like a lot of guys can deal with some body damage, have no problems with drivetrain damage, but the risk of rolling and destroying the entire vehicle is too great. It makes sense to me personally because it is the spectacular rollovers which cause the catastrophic damage in these events from what I've seen. Of course, that generates spectator interest ......

That's what it sounds like to me.

my toy isnt registered and no trailer to get it there other than that no good reason

1) EAST COAST - it would be nice to see one besides on video !

2) Different classes, like >2" lift, under 35" tires etc... Maybe get weight limits, involved. Classes like this will at least get people into doing this and allow them to progress. Kinda like starting in cruser or street stock class in dirt track then moving up to pro-stock etc....

3) Use different colored gates or flags for lines with different difficulty.

4) If its all based on points/time, let people run a section, tally the points at the end. Kinda like a scca race where all classes compete at the same time

5) nothing is carved in stone, but at least be willing to tweek the rules as needed.

-yag

Originally posted by ChadLloyd
Maybe I could explicitly state what some are saying in a round about way:

It seems like more and more rock crawling competitions are set up for the express purpose of causing rollovers. For this reason, it is almost as if you need a disposable vehicle in order to compete - something that you don't mind if it gets completely written off during an event.

I'm wondering if there is going to be any change in philosophy in how the gates are laid out in the modified stock class? Or is it going to be the same 'try not to roll' type of setup, just setup for smaller tires? I'm suggesting that this is how you might want to go if your intention is to entice people who are now sitting on the fence, based on what I am 'hearing ' in this thread.

I'm not complaining, do it whatever way you want, but if you are looking to entice people who are sitting on the edge right now, my own personal opinion, for whatever little it is worth, is set up the modified stock class so that it is just as HARD (in terms of skill required and hard on drive train components), but has less risk of rollover. It sounds to me like a lot of guys can deal with some body damage, have no problems with drivetrain damage, but the risk of rolling and destroying the entire vehicle is too great. It makes sense to me personally because it is the spectacular rollovers which cause the catastrophic damage in these events from what I've seen. Of course, that generates spectator interest ......

That's what it sounds like to me.
this is one of the big issues for me, I can fix and/or live with any other damage inflicted, but everything I've seen of the rollovers in these competitions has been of the hard/multiple roll variety, and I don't want to subject my EB to that type of abuse, I've spent a lot of years of hard work to get it to where it is at now, I don't want to risk loosing that in one weekend, as for an EB a new body is by far the most expensive damage you can have to repair, running into the $3-5000 range, after redoing all of the custom bodywork, and repainting (after all it is my daily driver here at school). Scrapes, dents, and layovers I can accept, after all it is four wheeling, I just don't want to loose it all at once...

With that said, I will be at JV as a spectator, along with the reno event, and will probably compete next year in the Pro Mod class, as my 38.5's, no front inner fenders, and modified fenderwells in back prevent me from entering the modified stock class, even if I didn't get it narrowed over the summer, or get the coilovers on the front.

My suggestion afer reading other peoples thoughts, and thinking mine would be to add a fourth class. Call it a rookie class, or something of that sort, and limit people to running in it for only their first year, or maybe two. Run a slightly lesser course (maybe the same as modified stock, if they are going to have a different course), but allow all classes of vehicles in it. This would let people who are afraid of their abilities being less than their vehicles abilities to get their feet wet, and get hooked, I'm sure that they'll be back for more.

Originally posted by CrazyHorse

My suggestion afer reading other peoples thoughts, and thinking mine would be to add a fourth class. Call it a rookie class, or something of that sort, and limit people to running in it for only their first year, or maybe two ... I'm sure that they'll be back for more.

I dig it. Where's a thumbs up smilie? :idea:

I think your idea might get shot down though. I believe they're already bitter about setting up 3 courses. To add a fourth would be crazy.

Anyone want to volunteer to judge and setup a rookie run through mini rubicon at hollister or something? That'd work for me and I'd sign up for sure.

First off we are not bitter about setting up a 3rd course, and the modified stock course is designed more as a techincal course, we have no intention of putting someones vehicle in a roll over situation,(CalROCS can say the same for other promoters) but as in running nearly any trail, If you screw up too bad it could happen. I believe you read more into a statement than was ever intended. I'm sorry if you think my reply was semi-nasty, that was never my intention, but we do need to draw the lines somewhere. and a rookie class is a great idea but what is a rookie vehicle, if someone has a built rock buggy and has never run in a competition does that make him close to being equal to someone in a CJ-7 with a spring over who has never run a competition(ask Kelly and Lisa about the rigs that ran in the womens event)
We are working to make the class as equal as possible and still have people to run the class.
PS Please don't read this as being nasty, just trying to explain some of the thought process that has been on going. One of the items that has been dropped (was supposed to be dropped) is the 2.5 inches from stock location point suspension to frame. It will now read just a limit to overall wheel base change of 3.5 inches from stock, this will help the toy's with chevy springs, 7's with wranglers and shackle reversals. But it also opens the door for long arm kits, so their you go. If we allow configuration changes it really opens a can of worms as to were some will that the class.
Rich

why dont i compete? lets see:
it's and XJ, it has to get me to school and back every day, and take girls out, and all the other shit that 18yr olds need cars for.
i dont have money for entry fees.
i cant drive worth shit, well, i'm not that bad, but i've only been wheeling for a year or so.
maybe a class for full bodied rigs like my XJ, 4Runners, ect.
also, put me up against other people with 35s and no front locker
last thing, maybe beginer/intermediate/pro classes, like in MX, and have people on thier honor to compete in the right class, and if they're sandbagging, word will get out in the pits and peer presure will set in.
but if this stuff were overcome, i think it would be sick to compete, sounds like tons of fun, and i live right in the middle of cali.

One thing that i have seen mentioned and wasnt sure about was bobbed bed. I just cut 14+ inches out of mine so would that make me or alot of other toyotas un able to compete. Also at what point is inter fenderwell trmming considered to much. Is any or mukee ps omcu open. I cut out only the back foot or so of the plastic inside the front would that limit me. Also how much fender trimming in general is leagal an how much is not. I plan on taking about 3" out all around all 4 wheels so I can fit 35"s.

Just curious.

Matt

Rich, for me it is all about prioritizing. I have been in school to be a teacher for some time now, and the weekend of the CALrocs in JV is when I havea job fair. My bro will be there, and Chris will be spotting. I will be sure to be there for the next comp as his spotter. The flatty is gone now, and I can't wheel what I got now. I will in dues time build a tube buggy and wheel the piss outta it. There are some things taht are beyoing your control, and I understand you want to help everyoe with this.

I can say I competed at the last calrocs, and it was a blast. I broke bad, but it was all worth it. I gotta say to anyone if they are thiniking about it, they should do it without even blinking. It is a great experience.

Dimitri

Thanks buddy, can't wait to see you out there again. what's really funny is I'd like to compete at some level myself, but the cherokee is not up to the task in any others event. and the d-50 is a torsion bar set up, now theres a thought, longer A arms, portals, it just might work, Help me Bob, stop laughing this might be the one.
Rich

Originally posted by TEX
And if you allow someone with an '86 Toy to do something "because it ends up just like an '85", you have to allow the same kind of mods elsewhere. You've opened up an entirely different can of worms. If it's okay to SAS an '86 Toy then coil-springing a CJ would have to be okay too.
TEX

Beg to differ. It should be perfectly okay to go more archaic with your suspension, but not more modern. Would anyone complain if TJ owners scrapped the coils and went leaves? I think not.

"All Axles of a OEM design"

Define OEM design. re: Portals, (i r idjit), etc.

What puts you out of the class what does not.

thanks
Ron

Originally posted by evilfij
"All Axles of a OEM design"

Define OEM design. re: Portals, SOA, etc.

What puts you out of the class what does not.

thanks
Ron

Read my post in this thread that says: "READ THIS POST!" :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Drew Persson


Beg to differ. It should be perfectly okay to go more archaic with your suspension, but not more modern. Would anyone complain if TJ owners scrapped the coils and went leaves? I think not.

I agree with TEX. You should have to use the suspension design that was avaiable during your model year in your region (ie: if you are going to claim that a solid axle was available on you '95 Toyota pickup in Brazil you damned well better be driving a vehicle that was manufactured for use and previously registered in Brazil.

Ok I take back the SOA comment.

What about portals? If no what about bolt on portal hubs to OEM axles..

If you can do axle swaps whats the point of the OEM design comment? IFS/SAS is covered in the other rule.

Just curious

Ron

Zuk with Toy axles and your gold...:D

Originally posted by Big Rich
the modified stock course is designed more as a techincal course, we have no intention of putting someones vehicle in a roll over situation,(CalROCS can say the same for other promoters) but as in running nearly any trail, If you screw up too bad it could happen.... Rich

If indeed the modified stock class is set up with less chance of rollover, then I think this answers my suggestion in my earlier post about the rollover possibility scaring people on the fence off. I think if I was in a position to compete (I'm not, I'm in Nova Scotia), this might make me more willing to enter my rig, BUT I might want to see for myself that the course design was less geared towards rollovers before chancing it. So I'm guess I'm saying that it might take a couple of events before people on the fence agree that there is less chance of rollover and sign up, so stick with it until it catches on.

I think anyone competing would agree that rollover is always a risk, but I also think most would agree that most of the courses (which have all really been what you would call 'Open' I think) so far have been set up specifically to exploit the possibility of roll over for the spectacle of it. One need only watch the difference in the rock crawling competitions at their inception back in 1998/1999 and view their progress to today - there's no question in my mind that the promoters make the course's 'more difficult' primarily by putting in more climbs and dropoffs that increase roll over possibility. All you gotta do is count the rollovers in an event in 1999 and count them today. Often today you will have more rollovers on one obstacle than you would during the entire event before.

Again, not arguing, and I certainly didn't think you were being nasty if that was in reference to me, just suggesting a solution to your 'how do I entice fence sitters to sign up' problem. Sounds like your already onto it, and I personally look forward to reports from the events, which hopefully will reflect that rollovers in the modified class's were relatively rare.

In all forms of motorsports there is danger, and any competitor has to accept that. BUT it's also true that in all forms of motorsports there usually is a way (usually at the club racing level) for people to get involved at a reduced risk level, both to themselves personally, to their machine in terms of damage, and to their wallets in terms of the cost to buy in. It's probably a good sign of the health of rock crawling that we are actually getting to this point, and contemplating entry level classes, just as every other motor sport had to do at some point in their initial growth.

One other note: When I say rollover, I'm talking about end over end or side over side, multiple rolls type rollovers, not just flopping it on its side. Side flops are not nearly as bad or damaging. Just to clarify.

We are designing all the course's (all classes) to eliminate or minimise the chance of a mulitple roll rollover. Flops will happen, but the big harry roll I hope will not, I don't know the mind set of the others.
Rich

Was the original course designed with this intent? If so, then maybe a look at the video (when it comes out) of the first event will be able to satisfy anyone who wants to know the catastrophic rollover risk......

Reaons:
No budget, no tow rig, and east coast. If i had the Budget and lived in Big Rich's area I would compete!

Have any of you guys heard about JROCC and EROC both east coast divisions of UROC. I have ran across the info several times. A couple of guys from TN and OH are getting it started. They had one event this past fall. They want to get a hole east coast circuit going under a divison of UROC. I knwo they held the event in Jellico(not Tellico) TN.

I didnt read every thread so this info may be repetitive. I apologize if it is.

check out more info(i think thats where i read about it):
http://www.jrocc.com/

How about a garage built class that costs like $5 to get in and you get like $100 for winning? I'd love to compete with my beast. But I don't have any experience and my rig is untested. It would give the spectators something else to watch (and probably laugh at) and the competitors a place to start!

What about a fullsize version of mod stock class so my 87" width and 139" wheelbase with big ass overhangs can compete (or at least actually consider competing)?

Thanks YJ4Rox, I might still have time to get into the comp next month. Someone had contacted me about this over a year ago, but I'm pretty sure I blew it off at the time due to the strength of my axles. I'm gunna contact them when i get home from school and see if it's not too late.

Easy

Originally posted by Drew Persson


Beg to differ. It should be perfectly okay to go more archaic with your suspension, but not more modern. Would anyone complain if TJ owners scrapped the coils and went leaves? I think not.

Ah, but you're not going "more archaic" just to be retro. You're doing it for PERFORMANCE. And just take a look at the Toys. You're now allowing the late-model trucks that already come stock with fuel injected (even multi-cam) engines & allowing them to add a custom suspension based loosely on what was used in the old style trucks - trucks that did NOT (with the exception of '85) come with factory injected engines.

We could argue the merits back & forth all day if we wanted. And where the exact line is to be drawn for a specific rock crawling class certainly isn't for me (a guy who hasn't been on a rocky trail in years) to say. And perhaps my lack of West Coast experience is part of why I see merit in the rule the way it is. Back here, a SAS conversion is considered a RADICAL suspension change. Truth be told, I can only remember seeing one '86 or up Toy that had a solid front - and it was BUTCHERED. On the other hand, I've lost count of the # I've seen with V8's - even big-blocks (another mod I wouldn't allow in the lower classes).

So again, I'm not going to argue specifically WHERE that rule should be applied. BUT, I'd be hesitant to replace it w/o careful consideration. And regardless, the 2002 rules have been published. Good, bad, or otherwise, they have to stay consistent. And if a few of you guys are willing to show up in '02, perhaps your point will be proven true & they can reconsider for '03.

And that brings on another point. As a mud race sanctioner, I'm kind of in the same boat as the CALROCS folks. I have to draw lines in often unpopular places. And with thoughtful input from competitors, I'm often willing to tweak the lines for the following season somewhat. But, if a guy simply refuses to participate because of the class he'd be in, he loses the opportunity to prove his point. And that means I'll not likely consider his input when it comes time to redo the rules.

TEX

Regarding this "beginners" class, I think what might work (would BE a lot of work to think it out though) would be a "handicapped" class.

I'm not sure how you guys score an event, but it looks like you start with a set score & deduct points for failure. Everyone goes in with a perfect score & loses points for failure (or do you accumulate points for success???).

So, let's say that a stock vehicle, I mean ROCK STOCK, gets zero deductions at the start.

Having a long-arm kit would net you a deduction.

1 deduction for every inch of tire diameter over 33".

1 deduction for altered track width.

1 deduction for every 3" of wheelbase alteration.

2 deductions for suspension type other than stock, but still of SOME "OEM design".


etc, etc, etc. So that a guy with a full-on tube buggy could compete in this class, but would already have incurred multiple penalities before he ever moves an inch. A guy with a 258 powered CJ on stock springs & 31" radials would have zero penalties - at least until he/she got to the obstacles. This class would have to be run on your least technical course, again throwing the advantage back toward the most stock vehicles. Make it a trophy only class & make all competitors cover any sponsor/manufacturer decals. Keep it relatively expensive though (not $300, but say $40) so you don't get totally overrun with entrants.


What do you think gang, am I onto something? Too much hassle Rich? I could see where it might be.


TEX

I'd be down...

Originally posted by TEX


Ah, but you're not going "more archaic" just to be retro. You're doing it for PERFORMANCE. And that brings on another point. As a mud race sanctioner, I'm kind of in the same boat as the CALROCS folks. I have to draw lines in often unpopular places. And with thoughtful input from competitors, I'm often willing to tweak the lines for the following season
TEX

Go Tex.

I'm not a promoter, but I did get voted in (hmm.. railroaded?) as "Race Rules Chairman" for the M4x4A this year.

That means I get the enviable task of listening to each of our Regional Tech Persons tell me what they want/don't want in our rule book, and make changes accordingly.

One person wanted to throw out the "no roller motors" rule for the Sportsman Class (Sportsman is the low-end "race car" grouping. Higher than "OEM stock" and "Street/Trail", but lower-buck than the Competition Modified (roller motors) and X-Class (nitrous/blowers/nitromethane/...)

The argument was you can't buy a new motor that isn't a roller. Say a guy swaps a late model "roller" 4cyl into a '42 GPW. Per the rules, he's now in Comp Mod. Period. I don't care if it's a stock econobox motor that's a "roller" just for economy.

There's a very long slippery slope presented if we allow, as was suggested, any "production automotive engine" in "Sportsman"..

Sure would be nice to go over to Ford and buy an engine out of a Cobra-R to put into an EB for "Sportsman" drag racing.

Bzzzttt. Sportsman is supposed to be relatively low-buck.

I see a lot of abuses of opening up Sportsman to this type of engine.

Now that i've wandered off topic far 'nuff...

Point was. If you want to build a racer, you build it to the rules. Yes, that means if you buy a Typhoon you'll have to run in either "stock OEM" class, or if you've modified it in any manner, you're stuck in X-Class because of the Turbo.

Too-bad.

yes, you'll be racing against the alcohol injected 10,000rpm big-block blower-motors in purpose build mid-engine rails.

Don't like it? Build something different! There's a reason why we publish our rule book and try to keep it pretty consistent from year to year.

You can build a competitive Sportsman class rig for a lot less money than you can buy a Typhoon anyhow..

Those with SAS late model Toyotas.. are you going to compete only if you can win, or will you compete to prove to yourself you can, and to have fun doing it?

Who cares if you get spanked by a tube-buggy? At least you can blame it on the rig, and not the driver, right? :D

Have fun trying though.

OTOH, with a $300 entry fee, it's a little hard to call it "inexpensive fun for the weekend"

I'll blow less than $50 in entry fees n' such for a weekend of our racing. I do it because it's fun.

There's still the $50+ in fuel, food $$$, etc.. but it's all about having fun and an excuse to go play and visit with other great people.

FWIW, my Scout competes in "Sportsman" class. I get beat more often than not. Big deal.

I also plan on trying Nitrous n' Paddles on my rig in a year or two (I want to upgrade the rollcage first). That'll put me in the Blower-motor brackets. I *know* a 304cid dump truck motor won't keep up with ANY of the engines in X-Class. Big deal. I just want to play with the bottle. :D :D

Originally posted by TEX
Regarding this "beginners" class, I think what might work (would BE a lot of work to think it out though) would be a "handicapped" class.

etc, etc, etc. So that a guy with a full-on tube buggy could compete in this class, but would already have incurred multiple penalities before he ever moves an inch. A guy with a 258 powered CJ on stock springs & 31" radials would have zero penalties - at

What do you think gang, am I onto something? Too much hassle Rich? I could see where it might be.


TEX

I dig it, Tex.

The buggy would need to have a perfect run to be competitive - no mistakes, while the poor battered stockers would have a chance to foul up and still be in the running.

Certainly would make it difficult to "buy your way" to a #1 finish.

Basically the more $$$ you throw at your rig, the more perfect you need to drive. :D

Tex you might have something there on a way to handicap, I'm going to put a pencil to it and see what we come up with.
Thanks
Rich

Have any of you guys ever followed UMP modifieds. Dirt track racing. Well, i dont know if they still do, but they used to have a claims rule. This is how it work, to the best of my knowledge. It was in place to keep all the cars in that class even. Regardless of budget.:

You had certain standards you had to meet, safety, size, weight, etc. After a race was over and a driver felt like he was cheated by someone running a $25K motor in a $4K car. he could pull up to the flag stand and claim the guys motor, he had to fork over $500 bucks right there. You could claim just about everything except the chasis i beleive. I saw tires, motors, axles, all kinds of things. It kept the guys from going out and putting aluminum big blocks in to smoke the low budget guys every race. If they big budget guys didnt like it they had to move up a class(i.e late models) It kept everyone on an even playing field and VERY competitve. I also guys claim motors.that were total junk. Thats where the twist is. You have to give your part to the guy you are claiming. So if you had $10K in a motor and thought the dude you were claiming had a $25K motor and he wa really running a ratted out 350, just had a real good night, you screw yourself. It was a good system of checks & balances.

I have no clue if this would work, but it would keep a beginner class more even. Good Luck I hope this east coast thing works out!

well ok, I'll bite, I just painted my jeep and don't want to scratch it,

really tho, I spot, and the driver, well if I had a good way to put this, sucks, he has plenty of time to build the thing but won't take it out and wheel it and know what it does and how it acts, when I tell him to put his tire in the crack and gas it, he askes where the crack is as he pulls up to it :mad: he drives an EB, I wouldn't switch places with him cause I can't stand driving the thing, and I don't know how he does as well as he does with it the way it handles :confused:

so he has been given a xj, thing was rolled, we have axles, he works at a driveline shop so that is not a problem, and has most of the parts needed to lift lock ect, ect. just we have no time to build it, and if I were to tow it to my house to build it, the wife would leave me, especially after just finishing the one I don't want to scratch.

anyway our plan with this xj is to build a light weight beater and probably compete it with me driving, him spotting, he is running uroc, so that is out, which leaves us calroc, arca, and the northwest one. Hummmm decisions, decisions, and the lack of $ to enter.

Originally posted by Big Rich
Tex you might have something there on a way to handicap, I'm going to put a pencil to it and see what we come up with.
Thanks
Rich

I suspect it'd be a lot of trial & error. First time out you might underpenalize some mods & overpenalize others. Could work though.

TEX

Originally posted by Big Rich
We are designing all the course's (all classes) to eliminate or minimise the chance of a mulitple roll rollover. Flops will happen, but the big harry roll I hope will not, I don't know the mind set of the others.
Rich
You mean the big harryy roll like this:D

Originally posted by TEX
Regarding this "beginners" class, I think what might work (would BE a lot of work to think it out though) would be a "handicapped" class. TEX

Right ON Tex, your experience in this area shows. I think this idea rocks, and it is only a slight variation on the "X number of points for using rear steer" rules already in place.

The key, of course, would be to make the penalties high enough as to give the advantage to the closer to stock vehicles.

Originally posted by YJ4RoX
After a race was over and a driver felt like he was cheated by someone running a $25K motor in a $4K car. he could pull up to the flag stand and claim the guys motor, he had to fork over $500 bucks right there.

This is commonly known as the 'Claiming Rule', and has been used in many forms of motor sports to keep costs down and competition close. I know from my own experience it is widely (was widely back when I used to race anyway) used in motorcycle dirt track racing. I know Ricky Graham was not pleased when someone came along and bought his Harley factory ride for 2500$ (I think that's what it was at the time). I'm probably showing my age (and lack of complete memory) here .......

Anyway, the claiming rule is mostly used to keep COST down when expensive components might make a drastic difference in the performance of a vehicle. Usually this relates to engine mods. In the case of rockcrawling, I'm not sure engine power is the be all and end all as it can be in other motor sports. With the number of home spun vehicles, it would be hard to put a fixed price on this stuff......

PLUS it might allow some guy with a 2500$ home built job to buy someone else's brand new 20K TJ for 5 grand (or whatever you set the limit at)!

It's a good rule when everyone is running the exact same sh!t, or is supposed to be, but when the vehicles vary so greatly it's hard to apply.

Personally, I think Tex's handicapping is the best idea I've heard in a long time, and combined with courses not created for catastrophic rolls, will go a long way as far as getting more grass roots participation going.

Yes that's the tpye of thing we won't allow to happen. That is Craig Stump of UROC, He totalled the commando on the spill.
Rich

Yup...he now has removed the 440 that used to be in it and is now running a 4.3...man to be going at it again like he is, is totally GETTING IT!!!:D

ya know, i don't live anywhere even remotely close enough to make a calroc's event but you got to give kudo's to Big Rich for even being open enough to ask what it would take to get more people to compete and giving serious thought to making some changes ... without having even meet him i can tell Big Rich must be a pretty doggone good guy. here's to ya BR :beer:

- jack

It would increase my chances of running into all you A-holes.

:flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by Big Rich
It will now read just a limit to overall wheel base change of 3.5 inches from stock, this will help the toy's with chevy springs, 7's with wranglers and shackle reversals.


So is it 2.5" or 3.5"? My Cruiser is 3.5" longer, roughly. I might be tempted if I can fit in at 3.5".

Originally posted by Big Rich
Yes that's the tpye of thing we won't allow to happen. That is Craig Stump of UROC, He totalled the commando on the spill.
Rich

Totalled? It's not totalled. The thing is now fixed and it's badder than ever. Sporting a 4.3 (was a 440) now and a CJ7 front clip. You can't keep Craig down for long.

well Rich since you have asked me compete in your series and i am not going to i will tell you why.


i figure that i get to spend around 15 weekends a year camping and rockcrawling with my family. those of you who have ran with me relize i almost always have my wife and 2 young kids with me. for me it is a way to go out and have fun spending time with my family.

now knowing the type of person i am i am very competive and have a adictive personallity. so if i am gonna comepete i am going to do it to win every event and the championship. in order to do that i would sacrifice my time that i have available to go wheeling and camping with my family, and at this time that is not a sacrafice i am going to make.