cost of 2awg/3conductor? source?

[cruzer75]

Been searching around on the net for a while to try and find a ball park price on about 100feet of 2awg/3conductor wire. This will be used to run power to my detached garage from the house. I am thinking underground wire will be the easeiest/lease time consuming...i don't reall want to pull 100ft of tripple 2awg though PVC...PITA...so anyway... what kind of $$ am i looking at? 200? 500? 1000? anybody have an online source for this stuff? I am either not using the right key words or i am blind...thanks

Stew

[buffalogap4wd]

Do the blue states not have any electrical supply companies??? Here in Bush country we have plenty of them. Did you really search?? Here let me help http://www.daviselectricalsupply.com/
This company is in New York... That's north of the Red River... :flipoff2:

[fj40guy]

:flipoff2:

Went to price it online... never found ANY source of online pricing. Copper changes pricing too much, so everyone has "call for latest price". :(

My "guess" is about $5/ft. No idea if that is even close! :eek: For a electrician to trench and lay cable for 100 ft, I wouldn't be suprised at $1000 for the cost.

Trying to "budget" my electrical needs for the shop. Ouch! (Main panel with 200Amp, three seperate subpanels - machine shop (60A) - welding (100A)- general (100A) -- keep thinking an instant on water heater would be ideal, but for 60Amp @ 220A trying to figure what sub to run it from. Welding is ideal as I'd be the only one either welding or taking a shower :)

Tom :usa:

[braxton357]

Check lowes and Home depot for a ball park price. Then look up "electricians supply" in los yellow pages and call them too. Either way, it's gonna suck.

[cruzer75]

called davis electrical supply...for 100ft of 2awg/3conductor underground it's about 71cents/ft...so about 71.00dollars to do the whole thing...but it's Aluminum wire.....guess i can deal with that...I even told the guy i was Suprised how cheap it was....

Like i said i was using the wrong terms to search :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Yeah i was figureing like 500 for just the cable. I will be trenching and doing the hookup with some help from the old man so labor is cheap...

Stew

[fj40guy]

called davis electrical supply...for 100ft of 2awg/3conductor underground it's about 71cents/ft...so about 71.00dollars to do the whole thing...but it's Aluminum wire.....guess i can deal with that...I even told the guy i was Suprised how cheap it was....

Like i said i was using the wrong terms to search :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Yeah i was figureing like 500 for just the cable. I will be trenching and doing the hookup with some help from the old man so labor is cheap...

Stew

Just buy some NOALOX to use with the aluminum wire, and remember to tighten it up once a year! :flipoff2:

I need to stick with copper (code) as I want insurance to pay off in case my shop burns down!

Little humor... when I bought the house previous owner used some surplus Aluminum down feed wire to wire up his welder. All black with no color coding, nor NOALOX used on the connections. :eek:

Tom :usa:

[Oxjockey]

called davis electrical supply...for 100ft of 2awg/3conductor underground it's about 71cents/ft...so about 71.00dollars to do the whole thing...but it's Aluminum wire.....guess i can deal with that...I even told the guy i was Suprised how cheap it was....

That's cheaper than my Cu 6/3.

Don't you have to de-rate for Al? Make sure both ends are certified for use with Al.

I, personally, wouldn't use it, but I'm not you.

Oh, Tom, Al is code for multi-strand, IIRC.

Bryan

[cruzer75]

So whats the issue with AL wire?

Stew

[Oxjockey]

So whats the issue with AL wire?

Stew

Solid Al wire would heat cycle and expand/contract dramatically causing the connectors to loosen up and catch fire. It was used in the 60s, but outlawed thereafter. No worries! :flipoff2:

My mains are Al, but again, they're multistrand.

[Gummi Bear]

Stew,

Let's start out with a few things first:
* What size of panel are you wanting in your shop? (and are you sure that it's the right size for your loads?)
* How far is it from your panel at the house to the panel in the shop?


The price that you were quoted was likely for 2/2 romex, or SE cable more specifically. You are needing a UF or type USE (articles 338 & 340 of the NEC respectively) cable (direct burial) and you need a 2/3 with ground. Insist on copper, unless you have the know-how and patience to properly terminate the Al. The cable is direct burial, but where it emerges from the earth, it must be sleeved with a rigid conduit, be it PVC schedule 40 or 80, IMC, or GRC. If #2 is really what is needed for your purposes, then I'd use a 1-1/2" conduit for sleeve, anything smaller will be a struggle to feed the cable through.

Info man, we need info. What are the specifics of your shop (size, loads, big plans for the future)?

If you have any questions or concerns about the materials or the proper installation of them, ask away.

[86turbodsl]

The overhead version of this wire is known as 2/TX or 2-Triplex. It was about 0.64/ft when I bought some. 0.71/ft is very good for 2-AL-UG wire.

[cruzer75]

OK here is the info.

Distance from panel to panel is probably 100-125 ft.

I want to run 100amp service to the garage.

The house is 3 family with 200amp service...don't want to take all 200amps and kill the house...who knows what the fawkers i will be renting to will be doing...

Plans are to be able to run

220 compressor...30amps on start up
175 mig...40amps
Drop saw....2-4HP motor
1hp drill press
Lights
hand tools
Radio
20amp outles every stud(2ft studs old school construction)

shop is about 25x30

Will be a 1man shop...don't have a lot of freinds that would want to come over and wrench with me so should be OK...max load would be Lights, Compressor, and Welder at the same time i would think...so if the lights are on (10amps continuous??) 30amp startup for compressor, and 40 amp start up for the mig, plus radio? i should be safe with 2awg at 100ft.

I know 200amp service would be the bomb and i could have an electrician wire up the whole thing off the street and get another meter but thats big $$ for what i want to do.

I did call another place and they will give me 2/3 romex...which i know needs to go in piping for 2.23/foot. I am no electrical Pro but it doesn't scare me and i am careful and will make sure i do it correctly ect...

Stew

[Gummi Bear]

Ox is right, Al being as soft as it is, is much more affected by heat, and has a much more dramatic amount of expansion and contraction than copper. It will indeed loosen the lugs, and they need to be re-torqued to the manufacturers specs as a part of your yearly maintenance like he. The solution is to use hardened crimp connectors. It is also imperative that you use lugs that are rated for Al feeders (some aren't). Deox is also a part of this equation. Al makes for a decent enough feeder, and does have significant savings over copper, but you must do it right and maintain it to have a safe installation.


I'm working on a total calc for your shop. Bear with me for a little bit. I think that the 100A will be OK, I just want to double check. I'll post up your calc when I finish...

[u2slow]

Gummi is right with the Al particulars. Its legal here so it gets used, mainly for services & feeders.

I got #1 ACWU (Al) for ~$5/meter CDN earlier this year. Good for 90-100A depending on the application.

[Gummi Bear]

What I've done here is the simple load calculation based on the information that you've given me. Any master electrician should be able to do the same thing. I've run it as a commercial garage (no square foot derating), even though I suspect that it'll only see use on evenings and weekends. I have only included the items that I have been provided, and made a few assumptions to fill in some blanks. I'm not an engineer, just a humble electrician helping out a fellow wheeler :beer: ...

I see a 25x30 structure like you’re describing as basically a 3 car garage, so I’ve made a few assumptions. I’m assuming a 16’ wide OH door, an 8’ wide OH door, and a 3’ wide personnel door.

40 receptacles @ 180 VA ea – 7,200VA
30A compressor (5hp) – 7,200 VA
40A welder (Assuming a MM175 Input power- 230V, 19.5 Amps, 60 Hz, Single Phase, 30% duty cycle) – 2,574 VA
Lighting (13 – 4’ - 2 lamp electronic ballast fixtures) – 957 VA


Total VA – 17,931
Total amps @ 240V = 75

A 100A panel will be perfectly suited for this application. You shouldn’t exceed your 80% operating threshold at this either.

Some explanation –
• I figure about 80 linear feet of wall space, and a plug about every 2 feet like you suggested.
• The compressor I figured to be somewhere near 5 HP, close enough for these purposes
• The welder, can be derated per the table 630.11(A) to 55% of its rated input amps
• The lighting, I figure 12 fixtures in the garage, and one above your workbench against a wall somewhere
• The other stuff you listed should be 120V tools that plugs into your receptacles, and the 180 VA allowance should cover them with no problem.
• You should know that UF cable can only be sized in the 60* column of the Table 310.16, type USE can be sized in the 75* column. #2 UF (Cu) is only good for 95A, and #2 USE is good for 115A

[cruzer75]

SWEET! Thanks for the input and the calcs! Will keep you guys informed on whats going on with the shop and wiring once i start. I can't wait to have my own personal garage space to do what i want to with!

Stew

[trainrech]

Are you covered by local building codes where you are? We are required to run electrical service through conduit (PVC or otherwise) buried a min. of 18" here. I'm running (3) 4 ga + (1) 6 ga from my main to the garage - 60A service about 80' from the house.

[braxton357]

Are you covered by local building codes where you are? We are required to run electrical service through conduit (PVC or otherwise) buried a min. of 18" here. I'm running (3) 4 ga + (1) 6 ga from my main to the garage - 60A service about 80' from the house.


Required or not, if I were spending $100+ on wire and it being 100A 240, I'd definately at least invest the relatively small amount of money for 120' of PVC to run it in under ground.

[cruzer75]

yes i am covered by local code laws...this is in the city basicly...not sure what the laws are as to what exactly i need to do...guess i should figure that out also...probaly call the electrical inspector and get the low down on whats going down...i would like to do this on the sly...ie no permits or inspections...i know the in garage stuff i can do easy enough with no one seeing me...there are no windows...i think i can do the cable also...just dig the trent and then lay the cable ealy in the morning or late at night...most will be on the side of the house and in the back yard so nobody should see me to much...unless the neighbors are nosy a-holes which i will figure out soon enough...

Stew

[turbo4runner]

Stew I'd be carefull about saying that you will be alone in that big space you have now. If you need someone to bring there junk down just let me know and I can fill atleast a bay with my stuff.
If you need a hand with the labor let me know, I'm not afraid of a little hard work.

[cruzer75]

Turbo-sounds like a good plan to me...may inspire me to get some work done on my junk...

[fj40guy]

Gummi -- :beer:

Doing the calculations on my shop: 30' x 50'. Almost double the Load, so 200Amp should be good. :smokin:

Additional stuff not mentioned, in addition to wall space, is a Plasma Cutter (30A), and Mill/Lathe (5 HP).

I'm also looking at the ELECTRIC instant water heater. 100 Amp peak (ouch!) but can safely assume it will rarely run, then need not when welding/plasma cutting.

I'm still debating about the sub panels:

200 Main (on the pole):

Should I have a "main" with four breakers (aka 4 x 100 amp each)
or a big 20 breaker panel with 2 x 100 to feed subs? With the 14' side walls,
and runs of conduit up, across, and down, along the walls, it adds some distance to electrical runs.

Thought was:

Main Feed in NE corner

Sub panel 1: 100Amp
(Can be near Main feed)
Shop lights
Shop outlets
Well Power (30 Amp)

Sub panel 2: 100 Amp -- (NW corner 70' from main)
Milling Machine (5hp -- 30 Amp)
Lathe (3hp -- 20 Amp)
Compressor (5hp -- 30 Amp)

Sub panel 3: 100 Amp -- (North Wall, 45' ft from main)
Welding (40A)
Plasma (30A)
Water Heater (75 Amp) [i.e. instant heat, not used when welding]

Sub panel 4: 100 Amp (???) -- (SW corner - 90' from main)
Office lights
Office plugs
Bathroom light
Bathroom plugs (GFI)
Office A/C (20 Amp)

Emergency power is 12V batteries, solar charged. Emergency lighting and UPS is powered off this. :D Building has no windows, no sky light, so the Emergency Lighting will be rather use full for those power outages. :)

Long term is to have a 10KW generator. Hence the well power being off Sub Panel 1. Figure if the power goes out I can at least do some oxy/act welding and still see what I am doing. House was without power for 8 days a few years back due to storms. (Hence the well.... ).

Tom :usa:

[Oxjockey]

That's all great stuff! :beer:

<snip>

40 receptacles @ 180 VA ea – 7,200VA
<snip>



I'm sure Gummi's aware, but this is generous in a residential application - no "requirement" for the 180 VA per, but a good guideline.

Bryan

[cruzer75]

More awsome info!

At work they are remolding and i just scored 8 4buld 4ft florecents to hang in the garage AND 2 ceiling fans:-)

Decided to run 2 1.5in PVC conduits from the house to the garage first off with rope in them so i can pull the lines through later when i get them. The exta pipe is for later on...if i want to do anything like gas line, air line back to the house, phone, internet, cable,...ect

Stew

[u2slow]

Generator.... hmmm... sounds like you need a transfer switch too. :evil: This my 5-minute knee-jerk overview. Ask Gummi for the rest. I only know the Canadian rules :p

- 200A main fused switch
- transfer switch
- 200A splitter
- 200A panel on north wall -> 100A sub for mill/lathe/comp -> 60A sub for bath/office
- 100A panel for shop/well

[Bronken]

100 amps should be fine for any residentail shop/garage. The average house (2500-3000 sq ft) will only draw approx. 60 amps. Unless you will have 3 buddies using your stuff at the same time you will not have a problem.

[Bronken]

Also, if your going to dig a trench it,s best to throw some pipe in it. If you ever have to replace or upgrade the wire then you are already set to go. I would recommend a 2 inch pvu conduit. Good luck.

[Gummi Bear]

Ox - 220.13 instructs us to use the 180VA load per receptacle for any structure other than a dwelling unit, that's where I got that multiplier from.

Stew - I'd do a minimum of 2 conduits. Am I to assume that you've decided to use loose conductors in conduit rather than direct burial? I have 3 conduits to my shed. 1 for power; 1 for tele, catv, security; and 1 for future. All of mine are 1-1/2", and I only have 60A in my shed (no room for a garage, so I work in the driveway and yard) I'm a big fan of doing things as simply as possible, so oversize those conduits while you can and make it easy on yourself later. The string in the conduit is a good idea. I like to use an air compressor to blow them in. Tie a piece of soft sponge (plastic grocery sacks make a good 'rat' also) bm to the end of the string and blow it through.

The lights are a super score! Check the ballasts and make sure that they are for 120V. It is common for them to be 277V. Same for the fans. Purchasing new ballasts can often times offset the cost of replacing the fixture altogether. I like the new(er) electronic ballasts in my fixtures anymore. They aren't quite as affected by the cold, and they don't hum. All of the lights in my shed, and in my Dads shop, are all demo'd off of jobs that I was working on. The only money I have in them is for new lamps. :grinpimp:



FJ 40 - a 10 KW genset will be cool, but something to consider... What kind of fuel are you planning to use? Gasoline is good, but if power's out, where you gonna get more. We all know that it will seperate over time as well. Natural gas is pretty fantastic, as long as you have it. LP gas is also good, and if you can get a service from a local supplier, then it may be a good solution. Diesel is pretty much the standard.

About the sub panels: When I wired my Dad's shop which is 40x60, I put in a 225A main breaker panel near the center of the west wall. He has a lot of similar loads to what you're describing. I fed everything from there. Subpanels are nice, but not necessary in this instance. You may need to, in the interest of having enough breaker spaces, make it a 2 section panel. This will give you 84 breaker spaces, and everything is in one location. Voltage drop in a shop of that size isn't really an issue. The amount of conduit and wire to do the work will pretty much wash if you size your homerun conduits appropriately.

As far as the emergency circuits are concerned, just put them in a 60A sub panel, and set your transfer switch between the main panel and the sub. If you're in the FW area, I can help you draw it up, and put together a material list. If you really have your heart set on having the subpanels, then you need to make sure that you do a series rating calc, so that you don't have nuisance tripping in the event of a fault.