I made the mistake of not fully insulating my shop when I had it built, and that puts me probably in the same boat as many of you who have purchased a shop and need to insulate it.

Mainly, I want to talk about insulating the walls. I did think ahead and purchase the fully insulated doors, but door insulation is being covered in another thread.

I already have the ceiling insulated when I had the shop built, but this is a good place to discuss that as well if others need info about that.

What I have is a post style structure (~10' between posts), with metal exterior siding, and 2x6 run between the posts. Floor to ceiling is about 12'.

At this point, I am thinking I will stand up 4x8 plywood on end and go around the walls. What should I use behind that for insulation?

The 4' or so above the plywood to the ceiling will be exposed, what should I use there?

And while we're on the subject, anyone have info on "spray insulation" I've heard about?

And while we're on the subject, anyone have info on "spray insulation" I've heard about?
Perfect thread for talking about that too :)

dave, one of the guys at work, insulated his shop in Oregon with the same material used in the hulls of Ice breakers. I think he got it direct from the comapny maybe in Texas. Anyway, the stuff is only .25" think with an extreamly high R value. Comes in rools, and is easy to install on metal. He always raved about how well it worked.

I'll see if I can contact him and find out the name of the product and supplier

Dave,

Do you have any room between the building walls and interior joist?

I'm using the Low-e (http://www.low-e.com/) stuff in the shop. Already posted a couple of pics in the garage door thread. Stuff is thin.

Still planning on having the office/machine room with a wall ac/heat so I can work in comfort. Full 2x4 studd walls so I can fill cavitys with insulation. Welding area will be in the "open" section of the shop. Still trying to figure out how to exhaust the plasma cutter dust/grinding dust outside of the building.

On the Low-e stuff... one spark will melt it quickly. Flame resistant, but thinking of using the corrugated galvinized sheet metal on the walls (flame/spark resistance, reflective in the natural state).

Tom :usa:

I'm interested in ideas as well. The posts in my garage are roughly 8' apart. I had originally thought about just putting in stud walls in between the rafters and insulating it like that, but that was going to be pretty expensive by the time I bought all the 2x4's and insulation.
The only insulation I have is some 1/2" thick foam type stuff (rigid foam with a reflective silver cover on it). Its between the metal walls/room and posts/trusses. It might do some good, but I don't think it does much (I've never checked the temp inside versues out).

Well from what I've been able to find out, there is no chearp insulation. My cousin had his shop sprayed and it's really thick. But, I think he paid like $1000 and three cases af beer for it. It sure covered a lot of imperfections. But he built his wall using used garage doors for skin. I think he had about $1500 in used garage doors and framing rafters before the insulation. It's only like 24 X 24 though. What I fear is the flammability of spray foam and the dust collection it does. I have enough allergies.

My new shop insulation estimates will be around $2 K. But I'm hoping to AC the thing later and installation will be the same price, as far as the erection price. I just have to cough up the money for the rolled stuff initially.
My step son has a buddy in the garage door buisness and he's going to cut me a deal for my insulated doors. But, I only have 2 door to buy.
I thought about using corregated tin for better fireproofing wall liners like Camo used in his office. That should keep the sparks and flying tools from tearing up the plastic covering on the insulation. Not to mention all those jerks who have nothing better to do than pole holes in things.
Happy hunting!

SSSRodeo

Why do you need to insulate it Dave? It's not that cold here. I would think a small wood stove or salamander would do a good job. Is it worth the expense?

Shop n' House Pictures (http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/postnuke/modules.php?set_albumName=HouseNShop&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php)

(2003 is the start of the floor painting and then corbond-ing, 2004 is sheetrock, painting, air system, etc)

When I bought my house, it came with a 34x28 shop. I do have 24" on center 2x6 studs, but it's steel sided and roofed, and nothing to "seal"/tie-in the bottom of the steel siding to the floor or anything.

Only one good solution.

Corbond.

No need for a vapor barrier, sticks to the steel siding, it's poisonous to mice if they try to eat their way through.. and I didn't have to lift a finger, except to write the check.

~$1500 to spray about 1000 sq ft of wall to a depth of 3". That's R-21.

I then sheetrocked over the top for fire-resistance, and painted the whole thing. Ceiling is R-50 fiber-fill.

http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/PlainGallery/album33/DCP_0004.sized.jpg
http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/PlainGallery/album33/DCP_0009.sized.jpg

$1500 later..

http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/PlainGallery/album33/Dcp_0008.sized.jpg
http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/PlainGallery/album33/DCP_0019.sized.jpg
http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/PlainGallery/album33/Dcp_0013.sized.jpg
http://tigger.tmcom.com/~tsm1/PlainGallery/album33/DCP_0021.sized.jpg

Quieted down the wind noise, sealed out any drafts, and mostly covered my wiring, but left enough depth I could run wire on the outside of the corbond, under the 'rock, too.. which I did, since I didn't finish the wiring as quickly as I wanted to.

edit:

A little under $2400 total in shop insulation between the Corbond walls and loose fill attic. I did NO WORK. No itchy fiberglass to deal with, no respirators and such.. none of that.

I did 'rock the place myself, and IIRC have $500+ tied up in sheetrock and primer n' paint n' mud. Paid $200 on top of that for the fire-tape job, then we decided to put a second coat of mud on ourselves.

why not just use insulation that would be used in your home. and take your ply wood and hang it like sheetrock(sideways) you'd use 4 1/2 sheets per 10' opening and it would cover all 12'.

Spray foam insulation is da bomb. It's also bigtime $$$...

In addition to the brands previously mentioned, check out Icyne (I-scene... I likely spelled it wrong...)

If your going to sheath it with something, standard old glass bats are pretty cheap. You could also blow in cellulose behind the sheathing. Cellulose is actually pretty good stuff, if it doesn't get wet.

They make a heavy foil-backed fiberglass insulation that comes in rolls and is easily applied with just a staple gun that a lot of people use up north. The part that sticks out mainly looks like aluminum foil -and covering just the bottom half is no big deal - but it is better if you cover it all. In shops with just the bottom half covered, I have noticed that tools and parts tend to get dropped behind the walls... :(

Here's a couple links - no recommendations, just info...

http://www.steelbuilding.com/buildings/accessories_foil.htm

http://www.steelbuilding.com/buildings/accessories_fiberglass.htm

http://www.insulation4less.com/

With my post frame building. The shop area, 60x60, had 8' on center 4x6 post. I just framed out the openings between them with 2x6 studs. Then I painted sheets, a bunch of sheets, of 1/2" plywood and put it up on the walls. Cost alot but its nice, and durable. I just insulated with a r 36 i think fiberglass bats behind the plywood

found this place that has do it yourself spray foam. Don't know anything about it, other than if you could do it yourself you'd cut down on cost I would imagine.

http://www.fomofoam.com/

There are a boatload of foam brands, spanning a range of densities between 1/2 pound/ft^3 and 2 pounds/ft^3. Density is the key:
* low density foams - generally sprayed to overfill and trimmed back, up to 100:1 expansion, with open-celled structure (sorta like a sponge). Icynene is a water-based low-d foam.
* high density foams - generally sprayed on to an inch depth after expansion, up to 10:1 expansion, with closed-celled structure (like bubble wrap).
Note that the density/insulating ratio is the inverse of traditional insulation -- in the case of most spray-in foams, less air and more chemical means better insulation (though generally at cost of bigger budget). Depending on the application, foam type, and inspector, you may not need a vapor barrier.

When I was looking, low-density foam was about $1 per foot^2 of wall, compared to about 65¢ for spray cellulose and 40¢ for fiberglass batts. In the end, I couldn't justify the cost for my mild climate... but I may still end up foaming where the garage butts up to my wife's office.

Randii

My slab is getting poured next week and with the weather holding out so far I am thinking of just erecting the shop and insulating after as well. I bought the insulation package(R10) with the garage but from what I see in the directions they want to put the insulation up with the siding I guess to sandwich it between the columns.

Would I lose much heat by not sandwiching it? I know the siding and columns would transfer some cold but it sure would be much easier to insulate from inside a heated shop.

Would I lose much heat by not sandwiching it? I know the siding and columns would transfer some cold but it sure would be much easier to insulate from inside a heated shop.

You will get a draft of cold air droping down each of the colums in the shop. If you can insulate it while your building, do it.

good luck putting it up next week, were about to get hammered here again.

why not just use insulation that would be used in your home. and take your ply wood and hang it like sheetrock(sideways) you'd use 4 1/2 sheets per 10' opening and it would cover all 12'.


With 10' walls- I ran r-18 in the sides, 3/4 marine plywood, 1 sheet upright - 8', and the rest a ripped piece - 2'. Primed & painted both in oil.

For the area's where fabbing will be done, use the sideing from the metal bld on the inside over the ply or drywall.

A side note: Gypsum Drywall is NOT Fire proof !!! It will slow down the FIRE, but in your fabbing area go above and beyond and protect the area.


Gypsum (drywall) is preferred in the Midwest for use inside the shop by Insurance companys.......as well as in floor heat :)

A side note: Gypsum Drywall is NOT Fire proof !!! It will slow down the FIRE, but in your fabbing area go above and beyond and protect the area.

Actually, gypsum board will give you a fire rating. 1/2" gypsum each side of 2x4 wood studs gives you a 45 minute rating up to two 5/8" layers each side of 2x4 wood studs to give you a 2 hour rating.

But granted, the paint and surface paper will catch fire and could be a problem. Best to protect the surface from sparks such as grinding or welding.

When we built our 28x40' shop (miss that thing.. ) I used R13 bats (2x4") in the walls and blown in celulouse in the ceiling to about R45.

If I ever build another shop, I will do what tsm1mt did in his shop and go full foam in the walls. The drafts in my shop were pretty bad, even with the caution I took to ensure it to be draft free.

The other reasons is critters... Critters love to live in fiberglass insulation...

Yes, it's "just" a shop. But if you are planning to have this same shop for a long time, do it once, do it right, do it the way you want to do it... and enjoy...




Related question.. For those of you with Pole-barns as the shell... how much $$ does it really save if you have to frame in the entire thing for insulation/walls? I've always wondered what the total savings would be giving the amount of re-framing that is required...

Cost is a BIG issue for me, so I have to balance cost vs. effectiveness.

My shop is big enough that most fab work (Welding, grinding, etc.) is done away from the walls, so I am not too worried about plywood on the lower 8' being a fire hazzard.

Come to think of it - if I decide to run plywood around the walls, I would be better off laying ot on it's side, since it would be stronger spanned across the vertical posts. That means too I could run less 2x4's as supports than if I stood it up.

In the corner where I built the office, I used standard household batting, since those walls were framed anyway. But I was hoping there was a faster and easier way for the rest of the walls.

Related question.. For those of you with Pole-barns as the shell... how much $$ does it really save if you have to frame in the entire thing for insulation/walls? I've always wondered what the total savings would be giving the amount of re-framing that is required...


I'm curious about this too...
I had no choice but to build my place as standard stick construction since it's in a residential zone, i doubt i would get a permit for a steel building...
But with the steel, i guess you don't have to pay for siding, so that is defifinitely one cost savings. But like you ask, how much DO you save if you have to frame the whole thing.

DRM, for your question, do you want to insulate the whole shop at one time, or would this be something done in stages? Like one wall one weekend, the next a month later etc??? You said cost is a factor, so i don't know if you want to spread it out over time or what. It is pretty easy to do that with standard insulation though, just buy what you think you need to complete one part of the job, if you run short, the stuff is easily obtainable, and if you have extra, you save it for the next wall.
The insulation i bought, i think i spent a total of about $500 CAN and i did 2 walls that are 24 long by 10 high. (I know your shop is considerably bigger, but that gives you an idea on price.)
And the stuff i used is fire resistant, and is rated at R-21. Add the siding, and the 1/2" sheetrock, i'm probably around R-25 i'd guess.
So, when i ever get my boiler installed, it should be pretty cozy in there.

Actually, gypsum board will give you a fire rating. 1/2" gypsum each side of 2x4 wood studs gives you a 45 minute rating up to two 5/8" layers each side of 2x4 wood studs to give you a 2 hour rating.

But granted, the paint and surface paper will catch fire and could be a problem. Best to protect the surface from sparks such as grinding or welding.

If you have a Metal bld, how do you get drywall on the "other" side of your said 2x4 ?

2 5/8 sheets on each side ? esplain........lol

You will get a draft of cold air droping down each of the colums in the shop. If you can insulate it while your building, do it.

good luck putting it up next week, were about to get hammered here again.

We are getting ice/snow right now but next week looks like it will be in the 40's so I am hoping everything works out.

I guess it depends on the weather on how we are going to erect the building, I could get the columns spayed afterwards I assume but that is just an added expense I can do without.

As far as plywood for the walls it is probably not up to code most places, i might do this and use welding blankets to protect the area I am working in as I can get free sheets at work when they come of the cargo containers. I will then sheetrock over it as I make money doing work in the shop.

If you have a Metal bld, how do you get drywall on the "other" side of your said 2x4 ?

2 5/8 sheets on each side ? esplain........lol

I was going from the UL listed partition walls just to illustrate the fire ratings of certain assemblies. Obviously, those assemblies don't quite work on an exterior wall. :p

Still, what they are talking about is for a partition wall. That for the first one, it would hypothetically give you 45 minutes for a fire to get from one side to the other if you are in the room on the other side of the wall from the fire. Once the studs are reached from either side, the wall is compromised. So drywall on the inside of an exterior wall would give you a similar protection from a fire that started inside the building.

Typically exterior walls do not have to be fire rated unless under special circumstances -- California has some codes due to brush fires (as possibly other areas with similar issues) or if the building is close enough to another building. But then you get into issues of support that you typically don't have in a partition wall so you end up talking masonry when you are talking about exterior fire rated walls.

I get what your saying PA, but 45 min ? Not any fires I have ever seen, granted I've not been a firefighter that long I don't want people to believe that it Will keep the fire away from you for 45 min, not gonna happen

I have seen folks do an install as you described earlier, and do it in a mobile home to try and spruce it up. Granted we are a volunteer dept, I don't think it'll last 45 min, usually past that point by the time we get there, and I'm not 1 for fucking around.

Reguardless of how one sheets his interior walls, PLEASE make sure you have sheilded walls in your cutting/fab area.

DON'T forget Extinguisher'S.............1 OR 2 usually won't cut it, buy as many as you can afford. You can never have enough, kinda like to many Blowjobs..............lol

Happy Wrenchin...........

I'm going by the UL listed assemblies for walls. Typically, you have an unrated, 45 minute, 1 hour, and 2 hour rated wall assembly. That's what you design around to meet the codes.

There is a lot more than just the gyp board on the studs. Basically, you have to meet certain fastening pattern, finish the joints a certain way, firestop caulking top and bottom, etc.

If you really want to go into the details, check this out: Fire Rated Assemblies (http://www.nationalgypsum.com/resources/firesound/goldh.pdf)

As to whether you will get the full 45 minutes, 1 hour, whatever in real world conditions, of course that is a different matter.

Firestop caulking top and bottom ?......never heard of that :confused: