Listen up folks, Just got this from Don Klusman, This is a direct attack (as far as I can tell) at closing the Rubicon and MANY other trails in Eldorado National Forest. We need to spread the word NOW! We thought we had a fight with the gate, this is 100 times bigger! That means EVERY SINGLE one of us have to do SOMETHING NOW!!! Don't wait until they CLOSE all of our trails to speak up. Write letters, make phone calls, send money, WHATEVER you can do to help, PLEASE do. I will continue to keep everyone posted as I am informed.
Scott Casagrande


A lawsuit has been filed suing the Eldorado National Forest. See press release below. I have already asked for a copy of the suit.

Thanks
Don Klusman

SACRAMENTO — CENTER FOR SIERRA NEVADA CONSERVATION
CENTER FOR BIOLOGICAL DIVERSITY
CALIFORNIA WILDERNESS COALITION
NEWS RELEASE: For Immediate Release: Monday, February 11, 2002

Contact:
Karen Schambach, Center for Sierra Nevada Conservation, 530-333-1106 or 530-305-0503 (cell);
Daniel R. Patterson, Center for Biological Diversity, 909-659-6053 x 306, 520-909-2159
Keith Hammond, California Wilderness Coalition, 530-758-0380

PUBLIC LAND MANAGERS SUED: Feds Ignoring Off-Road Vehicle Laws; results in damage to soils and wildlife.

SACRAMENTO – A trio of conservation organizations filed a lawsuit Friday charging that Eldorado National Forest officials have failed to obey laws for managing off-road vehicles on the 786,000 acre Sierra Nevada forest between Sacramento and Lake Tahoe. As a result, ORV use off designated roads and trails is uncontrolled and causing widespread damage to soils, wildlife, and vegetation.

Eldorado County-based Center for Sierra Nevada Conservation (CSNC) and co-plaintiffs Center for Biological Diversity (CBD) and California Wilderness Coalition (CWC) charge in a lawsuit filed on Friday that the Eldorado’s Off-Road Vehicle Plan failed to analyze the effects of ORV use on the forest. It also charges the Forest with violations of the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) and the National Forest Management Act (NFMA). The suit also challenges the Rock Creek ORV area decision, adopted in 1999, saying it failed to adequately address impacts to soils and wildlife, including the declining Pacific deer herd and California spotted owls.

According to Karen Schambach, President of the Center for Sierra Nevada Conservation, lack of the analysis renders the Forest Service unable to restrict ORV use on the Forest. “In lieu of enforceable Forest Orders, the Eldorado relies on signs that are routinely vandalized. Their law enforcement officers can’t cite riders going off designated routes; the riders know this, and the irresponsible ones are taking full advantage of the situation. You can go almost anywhere on that forest and see significant damage.”

The Eldorado’s Land Management Plan, adopted in 1989, restricts ORV use to a designated route system, but failed to analyze the impacts of the route designations to soils, fish and wildlife and other recreationists. Appeals of that decision to the Forest Service Washington DC office resulted in an order to the Eldorado to complete analysis of their trail plan by May 1997. The Eldorado has not initiated those studies, nor even indicated that it intends to do so.

Daniel R. Patterson, Ecologist with the Center for Biological Diversity said, “The Eldorado Supervisor John Berry can’t continue to dodge his responsibilities for limiting off-road vehicle harm. To protect the public-interest, we will vigorously pursue full compliance of NEPA and all other applicable conservation laws.”

A copy of the lawsuit is available upon request.

*** CSNC / CBD / CWC ***

For more information, contact:
Daniel R. Patterson
Ecologist
Center for Biological Diversity
909.659.6053 x 306
dpatterson@biologicaldiversity.org
Web site: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org

Man what the Fuck?

Sign me up for what ever I can do.

If you chose to contact any of the people listed please be courteous and professional, as you will be representing all of us.

Joe

WTF do we do? I'll do what I can to help, keep us informed.

This is what happens when people are irresponsible don't follow simple rules. Hate to say it but...........If people keep being A Holes their gonna slowly close all the trails. :skull:

Man, they're trying as hard as they can to close the place before I even get to go there:mad:
Anybody know of any links to *antieconazi* petitions?

I was going to wait until after my SAS to go to the Con, but I might have to wheel it with basically stock IFS and some good protection...

Keep The Con Open To All:usa:

If you read this and don't take steps, you are part of the problem!!!
PLEASE help..... We lost Surprise Cyn. to these fawkers!!! Don't let it happen to the Con!!

These three groups don't give a rats ass about what really goes on in the forests, their agenda is to close all non paved roads. I've probably had more experience form scouting than these asses do from their so call education. But we will have, to again, fight these so called defenders of nature.

and Yes we all need to be responible while enjoying OUR resourses.

As much as people like to wheel, and not get involved in the political bs, there is a time when everyone needs to do something. If everyone gets involved, we can make a difference!!
We are loosing area's at an alarming rate, to many people are
just letting the eco-nazis have their way and it is bs.:mad3:


I think this should be a "STICKY"

You know this sucks! I keep hearing that some environmental agency is sueing some government agency in order to shut down a trail like every month. Is there some way we could be proactive against this eco-nazi's instead of allways having to be reactive? I'm not talkin' about taking matters into our own hands with some vigilante group, but instead why not sue these organizations for taking away our rights etc... I don't know, maybe thats a dumb idea. It seems that we are fighting a never ending war and the you can't win a war unless you take action! Perhaps taking a legitmate legal action against these groups would be a way for us to be heard as a force to be reckoned with. Yeah, I know I'm just a PO'd newbie.

Kevo

Originally posted by Bragollach
WTF do we do? I'll do what I can to help, keep us informed.

Break out the checkbooks and support the organizations that will fight this:

Friends of the Rubicon (http://www.friendsoftherubicon.com)
CORVA (http://www.corva.org)
California Association of 4x4 Clubs (http://www.cal4wheel.com)


More info on the Center for Biological Diversity (http://www.crowley-offroad.com/center_for_biological_diveristy.htm)

Crowdog

:mad: :mad2: :mad: That's about all I can say at this point
:mad3:

Originally posted by Ghetto Fab.
You know this sucks! I keep hearing that some environmental agency is sueing some government agency in order to shut down a trail like every month. Is there some way we could be proactive against this eco-nazi's instead of allways having to be reactive? I'm not talkin' about taking matters into our own hands with some vigilante group, but instead why not sue these organizations for taking away our rights etc... I don't know, maybe thats a dumb idea. It seems that we are fighting a never ending war and the you can't win a war unless you take action! Perhaps taking a legitmate legal action against these groups would be a way for us to be heard as a force to be reckoned with. Yeah, I know I'm just a PO'd newbie.

Kevo

There are a few things that need to be done:

1. Reform the Endangered Species Act. More info. (http://www.crowley-offroad.com/grassroots_esa_coalition.htm)
2. Attend meetings in regards to land use.
3. Keep your representatives informed about off-road access on public land. Even just a quick note will help if more people would do it. Find your reps email (http://www.crowley-offroad.com/Take%20Action.htm)
4. Read the Land Use (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=18) section here on POR.
5. Vote! (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30914) - There is a sticky in the Land Use section that tells you who to vote for.
6. Write an editorial from an off-roader's viewpoint and send it in. Try SacBee (http://www.sacbee.com/static/live/opinion/letters.html) or Mountain Democrat (https://secure.townnews.com/ca/placer/letters/).

Crowdog
www.crowley-offroad.com

WTF some people just dont have anything better to do with there money and time, but to f**k the the outdoorsmen in the a**.

The Marines on camp Pendelton cant even dig fightig holes on some parts of the base( and this is gov. property) because of the danger to ecosystem in the area. All because of the tree huggers what a waste of our millitary training.

If it was up to the tree hugger you couldent even piss in a toilet it might scerw up the porcilen.

I say :flipoff2: um.

semper fi

LAND MANAGERS SUED OVER OFF ROAD VEHICLES

SACRAMENTO, California, February 11, 2002 (ENS) * Eldorado National Forest officials have failed to obey laws for managing off road vehicles (ORVs) on the 786,000 acre forest in California's Sierra Nevada range, charges a lawsuit filed Friday by three conservation groups.

ORV use off designated roads and trails is uncontrolled and causing widespread damage to soils, wildlife and vegetation, the suit charges.

Eldorado County based Center for Sierra Nevada Conservation (CSNC) and co-plaintiffs Center for Biological Diversity (CBD) and California Wilderness Coalition (CWC) say that the Eldorado's Off Road Vehicle Plan failed to analyze the effects of ORV use on the forest. The lawsuit charges the Forest with violations of the National Environmental Policy Act and the National Forest Management Act.

The suit also challenges the Rock Creek ORV area decision, adopted in 1999, saying it failed to address impacts to soils and wildlife, including the declining Pacific deer herd and California spotted owls.

Karen Schambach, president of the Center for Sierra Nevada Conservation, says lack of analysis renders the Forest Service unable to restrict ORV use on the Forest.

"In lieu of enforceable Forest Orders, the Eldorado relies on signs that are routinely vandalized," Schambach explained. "Their law enforcement officers can't cite riders going off designated routes; the riders know this, and the irresponsible ones are taking full advantage of the situation. You can go almost anywhere on that forest and see significant damage."

The Eldorado's Land Management Plan, adopted in 1989, restricts ORV use to a designated route system, but failed to analyze the impacts of the route designations to soils, fish and wildlife and other recreationists. Appeals of that decision to the Forest Service's national office resulted in an order to the Eldorado to complete analysis of their trail plan by May 1997.

The Eldorado has not initiated those studies, nor even indicated that it intends to do so, the lawsuit states.


* * *

Crowdog

This is the way of the envro-natzy if you don't see it their way then they will take to court and sue your ass untill you can no longer afford to defend yourself and then they get it their way.

Kieran Suckling is the Executive Director of the Center for Biological Diversity......

Reporter: "You are forcing change on society and you are aware of it?"
Suckling: "Yeah! Isn't that what an activist is! What do you think an activist is? We change society!"

Reporter: "Can't you do this in a humane and gentle way?"

{take a deep breath before reading on}

Suckling: "It is sad, but I don't hear you put that in a direct relationship to the effect on the land. I hear you talk about the pain of the people but I don't see you match that up with the pain of the species."

Reporter: (dumbfounded) "What?"

Suckling: A loach minnow is more important, than say, Betty and Jim's ranch - a thousand times more important. I'm not against ranching, it is a job. My concern is the impact on the land."

Geeze, this is BS.. I honestly think we need to find out SOMETHING we can do, some way to sue them to get them off our asses... I think we all agree that yes, the enviroment needs to be protected.. but damn, it doesent need to be closed down.. ya know, there are soo many different types of people out there.. I am sure they can probabally also find a problem with me going backpacking in a wilderness area... just like how they can get down on 4 wheelers.. they have to be stopped... if I have extra money at the end of this month, i am going ot donate it.. it needs to be done...
Garrett


EDIT: sorry if I offended any one with those pictures, I was asked to take them down, so I did... I am still steemed over this.
Garrett

Originally posted by Crowdog
Kieran Suckling is the Executive Director of the Center for Biological Diversity......

Reporter: "You are forcing change on society and you are aware of it?"
Suckling: "Yeah! Isn't that what an activist is! What do you think an activist is? We change society!"

Reporter: "Can't you do this in a humane and gentle way?"

{take a deep breath before reading on}

Suckling: "It is sad, but I don't hear you put that in a direct relationship to the effect on the land. I hear you talk about the pain of the people but I don't see you match that up with the pain of the species."

Reporter: (dumbfounded) "What?"

Suckling: A loach minnow is more important, than say, Betty and Jim's ranch - a thousand times more important. I'm not against ranching, it is a job. My concern is the impact on the land."

Hmmm... How about: Our Access to the Rubicon is more important than Sucklings life span. How about that?

What a bastard. :mad3:

There are a few things that need to be done:

1. Reform the Endangered Species Act. More info.
2. Attend meetings in regards to land use.
3. Keep your representatives informed about off-road access on public land. Even just a quick note will help if more people would do it. Find your reps email
4. Read the Land Use section here on POR.
5. Vote! - There is a sticky in the Land Use section that tells you who to vote for.

Crowdog


To me this is all somewhat reactionary though. What I'm talking about is going after organizations like sierra club. Letting them know that they can stop private enterprise heck they can even stop the government, but they can't mess with us! Big business and the government don't really have any rights when it comes down to it. If you have the time and money to put up a fight you can stop them. We are a USE group, we do have rights! Could we take legal action against them for misrepresentation or for trying to take away our right to pursuit of happiness? Ya' know just come right out with some class action lawsuit to wake these hippie groups up to the fact that we won't take it anymore! And maybe they'd realize that we should work together:emb: . Maybe they'd realize we don't want to destroy the world because we don't want to wheel in some concrete, toxic waste dump! I don't know, maybe I just need to get some sleep!

Kevo

Well, I just spent the last 40 minutes sending as many letter to our officials as I can stand. What else can I do?

I saw somebody mention giving money. I will see what I can do. Not to sound stingy, but I only have a limited amount I could give. What would be the one best group that could give us the most bang for our buck?

This really sucks! I am pissed! I am not happy!

What else can we do? Do they have any meetings on this near Modesto or Merced that I could attend and voice my opinions?

I guess I'll use the rubican!

Fawk I was just driving back from the horse ranch looking at all the lights from the new houses on what used to bee vast farm land. I looked to my mom and said see all this this was farm land 5 years ago.
Those environmentalist are trying to keep us out of the forest when this is happening everywhere gobling up open land and displacing wildlife faster then what a few thousand rigs through a dirt trail can ever do.

Pisses me off

Hey, anyone ever try to get the rubicon registered as some sort of historical land mark? There's no way the greenies could touch it then. You know how they save old buildings because they are part of our heritage and all, well heck this is part of our 4-wheelin heritage! I know it used to be an old road but, isn't the 'con the oldest known jeep trail? Wasn't it the trail to go to way back in the day? 4-wheelin is no longer just a hobby, its a sport now, and for some a way of life. OK, I really, really need to go to sleep now!!!

Kevo

Originally posted by orbitcat
Well, I just spent the last 40 minutes sending as many letter to our officials as I can stand. What else can I do?

I saw somebody mention giving money. I will see what I can do. Not to sound stingy, but I only have a limited amount I could give. What would be the one best group that could give us the most bang for our buck?

This really sucks! I am pissed! I am not happy!

What else can we do? Do they have any meetings on this near Modesto or Merced that I could attend and voice my opinions?

This is a great start and I personally want to THANK YOU! Do you mind posting all the info you sent to, ie: email addy's, phone #'s, anything you have so others can do the same. As of right now, we have multiple requests in for a copy of this lawsuit so we can see how we can fight it. I will be honest, the more $$$ you can donate, the better off we will be, BUT, $10 is better than $0. Plain and simple. There are a LOT of different organizations that you can donate to, so let me talk to Don Klusman, I will see where he suggests the money be directed to. As far as meetings, I'm not sure yet. If I hear about one, then I will pass it along ASAP.
Thank You,
Scott Casagrande

These are the places I sent letters:

gale_norton@ios.doi.gov gale_norton@ios.doi.gov

senator@feinstein.senate.gov senator@feinstein.senate.gov

http://boxer.senate.gov/contact/webform.html

http://www.house.gov/gcondit/

president@whitehouse.gov president@whitehouse.gov


If there are more places to send E-mail to, please let me know. Thanx.

http://www.yourcongress.com/MemberSearch.asp

Thanks Pete. :)

Also, Try to be polite and use courtesy in your emails. YOUR email is representing the offroad community as a whole. We need to keep the pressure on this guys. Keep the land open FOR the people, not FROM the people!

Originally posted by orbitcat

I saw somebody mention giving money. I will see what I can do. Not to sound stingy, but I only have a limited amount I could give. What would be the one best group that could give us the most bang for our buck?


I am guessing that CORVA (http://www.corva.org) will step to the plate big time to fight any closure of the Rubicon. They have stepped up to fight Surprise Canyon, Glamis, Oceano Dunes (Pismo) and more. Here is a page with other organizations that fight for Public Access to Public Land. (http://www.crowley-offroad.com/Banner_Exchange.htm)

Crowdog

Off-road-vehicle impact not studied, suit says

By Stuart Leavenworth -- Bee Staff Writer
Tuesday, Feb. 12, 2002
SACRAMENTO -- Three environmental groups have filed suit against the U.S. Forest Service, claiming it has not adequately studied the impact of off-road vehicles in Eldorado National Forest.

The lawsuit, filed Friday in U.S. District Court, focuses on a 1989 management plan for Eldorado forest that restricted off-road-vehicle use to certain designated routes.

In their suit, the environmental groups say Eldorado forest officials have failed to comply with an order by the Forest Service to study the environmental impact of the routes by 1997.

The suit also challenges a 1999 management decision for the Rock Creek off-road area near Georgetown -- long a point of contention among environmental groups, equestrians and off-roaders.

Forest Service spokesman Matt Mathes declined to comment.

The suit was filed by the Center for Sierra Nevada Conservation, the Center for Biological Diversity and the California Wilderness Coalition.

http://www.sacbee.com/content/news/environment/story/1622678p-1698861c.html

The Rubicon is a victim of its own popularity. The more coverage it gets, the more people attend, the heavier the impact on its ecology, it's inevitable. And we 4-wheelers suffer from a lack of consolidation (lots of little clubs and groups with no cohesive strategy), low funds (we will *never* have as much money as the econazis, they appeal to a much wider population than we do) and worst of all, 4-wheelers have a POOR public image.

Let's face it, folks, if we don't take a stand right now for the Rubicon, we're doomed. If they can close the Rubicon trail, nothing is safe. We need to get active, write letters, participate. But above all, we need to start worrying about our image, as long as we're seen as a bunch of redneck drunks ripping up pristine nature, we're fawked. If we don't fight that image, it will be the end of the line.

GET INVOLVED, people, I just fired off letter to all of my congressional representatives AND several CA representatives. Take some time to make yourself heard, and don't think your voice doesn't count, remember the last election?! :)

Originally posted by Ghetto Fab.
Hey, anyone ever try to get the rubicon registered as some sort of historical land mark? There's no way the greenies could touch it then. You know how they save old buildings because they are part of our heritage and all, well heck this is part of our 4-wheelin heritage! I know it used to be an old road but, isn't the 'con the oldest known jeep trail? Wasn't it the trail to go to way back in the day? 4-wheelin is no longer just a hobby, its a sport now, and for some a way of life. OK, I really, really need to go to sleep now!!!

Kevo


God no!!!!! Don't make it a historical landmark!!! Then we could not touch it either!!!


A few years back, they turned hundreds of thousands of acres into the ALE Reserve outside of Hanford, Washington. They made all these acres a historical landmark. All of the red sagebrush across the highway from the nuclear power station was so beautiful that they wanted it protected. Then came the fatality accident on the highway that sparked a fire that consumed 300,000 acres of this land and burned 15 homes to the ground before it was stopped. There was a gentleman with a tractor and disc that begged the highway patrol to let him drive circles around the fire while it was still just a few feet across. They told him no. The only impact they could have on that land was that of a footprint. If they would have let him drive one tire across any part of that land, the consequences would have been great. Instead, this fire ended up costing millions of dollars to fight, used up a great amount of resources, brought thousands of firefighters from 7 states and Canada, all because it was a historical landmark.

Thank you Al Gore.

Here is a copy of the letter that I sent to any CA Senate member or House member that I could find emails for. Also someone from the Department of the Interior, Gale somebody.

If yall wanna give me some CA zip codes I could send to more. The resource on the net to find House members emails you have to have the zip code.

Anyway, I AM FROM FUCKIN ALABAMA AND IF I CAN GET OFF MY ASS TO DO SOMTHING TO HELP OFF ROADING EVERYONE OUT THERE NOT DOIN SHIT GET UP AND DO SOMETHING! THIS IS FOR YOUR KIDS AND MINE!!!!! DONT SIT ON YOUR THUMB!

The greenies arent out there sitting around, theyre mobilizing against you as we speak! That is what they live for! Eveyone on here has all these bad ass screen names, well this is where you can be a bad ass for off roading!

Here is a copy of the email that I am currently sending out...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Senator,

I am a resident of the Great State of Alabama. It has recently been brought to my attention that several activists groups have banded together to attack the rights of offroaders to offroad in the area lovingly known as 'the con'. I believe the area is officially known as El Dorado.

Anyway, this is one of the maybe 3 areas in California that are special to me as an avid offroader. This area is one of the greatest offroading sites in the United States of America. People like me that live in the South only dream of actually making a trip out there to ride the trails that these activists want to shut down.

I firmly believe that land is NOT damaged by offroading in any significant or permanent basis. I know this for certain because of my own personal experience. Every year I lease land in Georgia and Alabama for hunting. There are always several members on two clubs that I join every year. Every year during hunting season we (about 10 or more members) drive the roads on the land day in and day out. Trucks, fourwheelers, and Mules (6 wheeled vehicles) traverse the roads from sunup to sundown. Nobody cares about tearing them up, we 'dog' them out sometimes just for the fun of it. We plow up food plots and create trails into the woods for fourwheelers to fit down.

Then at the end of the hunting season, nobody really goes out there again until about a month or two before the next hunting season. This period of time is usually 7 months and after this SHORT amount of time the roads and trails are barely even there. The rain, shrubbage, erosion, etc... have taken their toll.

Now think about this. If it takes 7 months for all that to go away, can offroading be that bad? Even if there were 100,000 miles off these trails across a national forest, would that imprint left on the earth be as bad as say ONE parking lot? How long do you think it would take one building to completly go away with no human help? 200 years? 500 years? More?

My point is that the imprint of offroading is like a grasshopper fart contributing to ozone layer depletion!

The earth was meant to be enjoyed by ALL people. A couple of dirt trails in the forest do not create reason to shut the forest down and not let anyone enjoy it.

I know I am not part of your voting sector, but I know literally HUNDREDS of fellow offroaders who are. They ALL care about these lands. They all hope that you make the right decision to FIGHT for the little guy. Fight for us so if your son or grandson grows up with motor oil in the veins and big tires on the brain he can live in the state with the best offroading in the world.

Thank you!

Tyler G. Divin

The Center for Biological Diversity has already proved that it can shut down hugely popular off-road areas. They are the ones behind the lawsuit that shut down 49,000 acres of Glamis Sand Dunes in So. Cal. For those of you that don't know, Glamis is the sand toy capitol of the world. It was estimated that 200,000 people were there over Thanksgiving. So just because the Rubicon is the "grand daddy", doesn't mean it is off-limits. I think the CBD thrives on going for the jugular.

Crowdog

start by making your little group you call a club official. Wether that means joining cal4wheel, united, tread lightly, BRC, etc. more you contribute and get involved as a club the more gets done..

If you think these groups do nothing go to one of their meetings..

This is bullshit!!!!

Let me tell ya'll a little something about the lies that these assholes are writing in there lawsuite. I am in the forestry school at the University of Georgia. I take classes that deal with land management, use, control, damage, etc. First, there is a law that was passed in 1960 called the "Multiple Use Sustained Yield Act." It states that land owned by the USFS (i may be wrong, but it think the con is on forest service land) MUST be managed with the following in mind: timber, fish/wildlife, watershed, range, and OUTDOOR ACTIVITIES. Wheelin is an outdoor activity! We have a RIGHT to wheel on public land; of course, only on designated trails.

Anybody ever been to Yellowstone? Yosemite? How did you get there? How did you see the beautifil scenery? Roads? Oh, my God!! You drove on ROADS to veiw pristine landscape in National Parks? Does anybody know what the effect of a road has on the surrounding soil? Anybody know how much a road weighs? Roads cause whats called a "pan" in the soil. Its a spot, generally in the second or third horizon in the soil where the density of the soil increases dramatically. This causes detramental effects to the weathering process of the soil, not to mention the subsurface flow of water. And what about the oils from vehicles that traverse those roads annually. Think that has any effect? Well let me tell you, it has a huge effect!

However, these places cannot be closed because of the"Multiple Use Sustained Yield Act." Catch my drift? More damage is done to the traversed soils of our national parks ANNUALLY than the Rubicon (or any other trail for that matter) has ever recieved. I am by no means an expert on this matter (my major is wildlife), but like i said, i have had classes on this stuff.

I'm not sayin "they can't close it, the con is safe." These turds will close it regaurdless of laws previously passed, if they can. I'm trying to give ya'll some ideas on what you can use to keep it open. I live on the east coast. The con is something i've only seen pictures of. Yet, it is something that is very important to me. I want to wheel it someday, damnit!! So I'll do what i can, but you guys out there can do more than me (meetings, voting, etc). Please do all you can!!

sorry i wrote a book here, just trying to figure out everything i can do.

I may have just been way off base and venting, i don't know. But i do now that the eco-nazis are not the only ones with rights.

Your rant is valid Ryan, you have some good points there.

After I'm done puking in the bathroom, I'll get my letters and emails out. There must be more we can do. Where are our leaders here? We have good ideas, but need to coordinate them into a unified effort. Where's Del Albright? Don Klussman? Where's POR's "Al"? We have lots of soldiers but need a general!

Great. I'm all for Biological Diversity. Let the new species in, out with the old.

Doesn't any of these fawkers realize that elimination of certain species is a natural occuring process throughout the history of the world. I won't even go into survival of the fitest.

There has been 5 major as in nearly 90% of species global extinctions. Too bad these idiots were'nt around 65 million years ago. We could all be riding dinosaurs just like the Flintstones.

Course had they been around for the first major global extinction none of us would be around. See the first extincion was caused by heating the oceans and releasing at the time very toxic vapors that killed off ALL life forms prior, it wasn't until new life forms evolved that they could deal with oxygen as a life supporting atmosphere.

I wonder if they all walk to work, live in caves and work out of tree huts. Cause if they drive cars, live in stick built or metal houses and work out of concrete buildings they are as much to blame as anyone of us.

If they wanted to do proactive approaches to saving the earth and it's biodiversity then maybe they should spay themselves along with there childeren and friends cause the real root of the problem they are trying to solve is people. As in too many.

Man I wish I didn't care about them as much as they don't care about me and my activities. There would be a few less people in the world.

Thanks for bringing this up

it's political terrorism. Throw out an outrageous lawsuit against a gov agency, the easiest thing for the gov to do is comply vs fight, to avoid the hassle & money spending for more lawyers.

we must convince them to fight with us and for us .......
I'll do my part

let's face it, the greenies are better at this than we are, we must double our efforts just to keep stride. Recruit your neighbors and others outside the 4 wheel community, we need all the help we can get.

30$ F.O.T.R.

Here is an example of an editorial from the Yuma Sun that is in regards to the Center for Biological Diversity. Different area, same problem. Anyone out there good at writing? If so, send an editorial in to the local papers from an off-roader's viewpoint.

Here are some editorial links for you:SacBee (http://www.sacbee.com/static/live/opinion/letters.html) or Mountain Democrat (https://secure.townnews.com/ca/placer/letters/).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stop environmentalists

Feb 12, 2002
As a snowbird, I try to stay out of local politics and just enjoy vacationing in your wonderful Southwest. I find this difficult to do when I read articles describing the intent of the radical environmental groups in this area.

Since 1991, I have seen large tracts of land removed from recreational use, mining exploration, camping, etc., and now military use. I have watched the Center for Biological Diversity become a general spokesman and leader in this movement to shut down the economy of our great Southwest and have seen no organized opposition to this.

I don't believe the general population of Yuma County, Imperial County and the surrounding counties recognize the impact this group and other environmental groups have upon the economy of America. They are closing vast areas of land ? public land ? to public use in the guise of protecting a non-useful tortoise, a noxious weed called the milk vetch and whatever else is useful to them. I am sadly disappointed in the inactivity of county supervisors, businesses, recreationalists and the general public to actively respond and stop this environmental movement. The environmental movement is as dangerous as any foreign power trying to overthrow our economy.

There was an Associated Press article in The Sun in January that illustrates that our safety is now compromised by the desert "turtle" and milk vetch. The United States Army will not be allowed to train effectively for battle because Daniel Patterson of the Center for Biological Diversity feels standing smoke is harmful to plants and animals. I strongly feel adequate training for our tank crews and young men and women training for battle and to defend America far outweighs the rights and "protection" of turtles and weeds. But what does one do when no one else sees what is happening or sees the impact of losing our public lands.

DON BAKER

Winterhaven

Originally posted by Toy4x
Thanks for bringing this up

it's political terrorism. Throw out an outrageous lawsuit against a gov agency, the easiest thing for the gov to do is comply vs fight, to avoid the hassle & money spending for more lawyers.


Here's an idea, maybe we could sue the forest service based on this event.

According to the Washington Times, federal and state wildlife biologists planted lynx hairs in an ongoing study of the Canadian lynx. The officials planted the hair on rubbing posts used to identify the presence of lynx in two national forests.
DNA testing identified the lynx hair as coming from an animal in a preserve and a pet lynx. The red-handed employees claimed they were testing the capability of the testing lab to identify lynx DNA.
The corrupt employees were banned from further participation in the lynx study. But they still have their job … supported by tax payer dollars.
See the full story at http://www.washtimes.com/national/20011217-7117603.htm.

Get all the studies thrown out. The eco-nazis are suing because the Forest service didn't do studies on the impact. Perhaps our side could sue because the studies are corrupt anyway. I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV, but there must be some ammo here. Especially since the corrupt employees weren't even fired. Who knows how may studies they corrupted.

I'm not a lawer either, but I work with them every day and I know the legal "process" (for lack of a better term). Here's how the bio-nazi's work:

Pick a victim (you and me, offroad community) and the source of their recreation (easy target, offroad vehicles). Pick the next chunk-o-land to sieze (they don't state it directly, but we all know this is a DIRECT attack on the Rubicon). Since they know they can use their in-house "experts" to testify why this animal or this plant is harmed in one way or another, they simply file suit based on some legal history work (in this case, the failure of Eldo county to perform it's mandated tasks, regardless of weahter it's really necessary or not) and base their causes of action on whatever they come up with. Then as part of the legal concessions, they motion for a stay or sease and dissist in order to perform discovery and or evaluate the situation. Ie: studies.

If the court grants these motions, gates are up. Con is closed pending the results of the test and lawsuit. This can take YEARS. So, in reality, without any real facts or firm ground to their allegations, they are successful. Con is closed.

They throw just enough money at their lawers to keep things tied up for as long as possible. Hoping you and I will get tired, lazy and run out of money. We cant let this happen.

Yes, we must sue people. This is the only way. If they can motion to gate the Con during this litigation, we can motion to keep it open. If we can keep it open, and show improvement (such as FOTR has with the Lohotan issue) we stand a good chance of winning this thing.

THE KEY IS TO GET THIS GOING NOW! WE MUST GET OURSELVES HEAD DEEP IN THIS LITIGATION OR DIE!

Hesitation will gate the con for sure. Again... where are our generals!?!? I've put calls into everyone and am getting real concerned! Who's taking the lead on this??

Here's my letter:

Editor:

I am a firm believer in the public's right to engage in responsible off-highway vehicle (OHV) recreation on our public lands. As an avid off-road enthusiast I am dismayed by the latest lawsuit filed by environmental extremists aimed at shutting down off-roading in El Dorado County (see article from SacBee "Off-road-vehicle impact not studied, suit says", Feb. 12, 2002). The is just another example of a small minority using litigation and half-truths to shut down access to public lands.

All of us want to be good stewards of our wildlife and natural resources. But these continuous lawsuits threaten countless communities all across America with economic and social disaster. In the case of the Klamath Basin, thousands of farmers were denied irrigation water because environmental extremists forced federal bureaucracies to give a higher priority to the comfort of fish than to the lives of humans. And now we are learning that these "endangered" species may have actually been harmed by the intervention. Time and again, environmentalists have been successful in closing off access to public lands based upon the inability of government agencies to properly monitor endangered species that are truly not endangered. Bad science and lawsuits shouldn't close off access to public lands.

If these environmental organizations were so concerned about the environment, why don't we see them organizing cleanups or helping manage habitat already set aside in national parks, monuments and wilderness areas? Because protecting the environment isn't their goal. They want to set aside huge areas that are not open to public use and they recognize that closing roads and prohibiting mechanized access are key to imposing their will on others.

Each year, millions of Californians, mostly families, enjoy the state's natural beauty in OHVs. We contribute billions annually to the state's economy. And while OHVs have become more popular while more and more land has been closed. When was the last time you saw a new trail open? The result is squeezing more people into smaller areas. This in itself can cause damage by over use. Unfortunately, large sums of money will be spent on litigation, money that could be used more effectively to improve recreation opportunities on public lands.

Haven't environmentalist ruined enough lives?

Jon Crowley
Shingle Springs, CA

"Off-road-vehicle impact not studied, suit says", Feb.12, 2002
http://www.sacbee.com/content/news/environment/story/1622678p-1698861c.html

Note: If you send in a letter, make sure you include your phone number and full adress or the papers won't take it.

Jon, great letter!

But let me ask everyone to use Off Highway Recreation or Off Highway Vehicle in their letters.

Semantics can get you in or out of a lot of trouble. Semantics can also give people an idea that you didn't intend.

When designing a commerical building, we call hallways, vestibules, not because they are not hallways but because if we called it a hallway it comes under a different set of rules. However there is absolutly nothing different in form or function from a hallway and a vestibule. But by using semantics we can make the plans get permited easier and with less fuss. I know it seems stupid.

Yes, we are called off roaders, shops name them selves Off Road, magazines say Off Road but in fact we don't off road. If we did then the greenies would have every reason to cite us as crazy off roaders always out blazing across the terrain, tearing up everything in their newly created path.

What we do is Off Highway Recreation. We use our vehicles for off highway use.

I know it seems stupid but it is the way of the world and particularly the lawsuit happy greenie world. If and especially when we write our letters use Off Highway Recreation or Off Highway Vehicle over Off Roading or Off Road Vehicle we will present our case better with less chance of our own letters coming back to haunt us.

From Del Albright:

The lawsuit against the Eldorado National Forest Travel/Route Management Plan hits the Rock Creek area pretty hard, but the Rubicon is not singled out from my initial review. It does NOT appear to be the target. However.....

Don Klusman, CA4WDC has already officially asked for a copy of the suit. Don Amador, BlueRibbon Coalition will also get a copy for BRC legal review. We'll know more then. But my initial poking around says that yes, Rock Creek is under attack (as usual by local folks up there), but the Rubicon does not appear to be singled out or named. Nonetheless, OHV/ORV travel is designated in the Forest Travel/Route Management Plan and everything eventually becomes fair game depending on how things are worded.

So what do you do about it?
THIS IS THE TIME TO GET FOLKS OFF THE FENCE AND GET IN THE GAME WITH US:
1. JOIN: Get EVERYONE who wheels to join organized clubs (local, state, regional, whatever). PLUS, I want to encourage all of you to also join the BlueRibbon Coalition (the umbrella group that represents all motorized recreation, including dirt bikes, ATV's, snowmobiles and wheelers). Multiple use is still the solution for tomorrow and BRC is the overarching group we all need to join. It's membership money that helps create the funds to do battles like this one. BRC also sponsors ALL my efforts to keep public lands open.

2. ADVOCATE for your sport. Talk it up. Be responsible and show others how we can use trails and still protect our natural resources. Set the example

3. INCLUDE OTHERS: get your congressman (or his/her staff) on a ride with you. Get your SUV friends out on the trail. Build the membership in your own club.

4. LETTERS -- WRITE EM!: now is the time. When asked; PLEASE write. Or just sit down and write your elected reps and tell them you want public lands left open to responsible multiple use and motorized recreation.

As always, I welcome hearing from you. Email anytime.

Del Albright

Don't breathe a sigh of releaf from Del's update. You can't. So you don't ride off road bikes or ATV's, now Rock Creek, what's next?

I'm going to look into the possibility of a nationwide class action lawsuit against the Center for Biodiversity. Stay tuned....

To make it easy

http://www.sharetrails.org/

I'm not a great writer, but I gave it a shot. Everyone should......

Dear Editor,

As a lifetime resident of California, and an avid outdoor enthusiast, I am becoming increasingly concerned about my access rights to public land. It has come to my attention that a lawsuit has been filed by the Center for Sierra Nevada Conservation, as well as the Center for Biological Diversity and the California Wilderness Coalition, against the El Dorado National Forest. I believe that this lawsuit, as well as countless others filed by these same groups, is threatening my rights as an American citizen.

As a member of the Blue Ribbon Coalition, as well as the California 4-wheel Drive Association, I will organize and fight against those who try to take my freedom away from me. The CSNC and their co-conspirators have shown in the past that their intentions are not of goodwill towards the environment, rather a way to force their own will upon the people who use the land the most.

Please do not allow this to continue. The money being spent to fight these lawsuits could be used to educate the users of the land, and to improve the areas that they congregate in. This lawsuit is a direct attempt to close down areas held in great regard by outdoor enthusiasts. Environmentalists, these groups are not, power mongers they are.


Keith Ratzburg

Nice letter Keith. I can't write either, and I still did it. If I can do it, anyone can.....

Keith, do you mind if I post your letter on my web site?

Crowdog
www.crowley-offroad.com

I will definetly try to help in any way, shape, or form on this one.

First, a link to a post I made in September . . .

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8321

This latest assault is directly tied to the above info and the driving force behind all of it is Karen Schambach, a resident of the Georgetown Divide.

Schambach has made it her goal in life to see to it that every 4X4, dirtbike, ATV, snowmobile, horse or any other contrivance that a human can take off of the pavement is destroyed or at least banned from use. She cannot be reasoned with nor will she deviate from her goal.

In addition to the eco-nazi organisations, she has a sympathetic ear with TRPA and the Lahontan Water Quality Control Board who both want the Rubicon closed. You can all bet that both of these agencies are gonna jump on the bandwagon.

The best thing we, as a group, can do is discredit Schambach and the groups she is affiliated with. That means turning in rogue off-roaders and conducting ourselves in an exemplary manner.

For what it's worth, after listening to some of her diatribe, it's my opinion that this woman has ties to some of the eco-terrorist groups.

Know your enemy - do a Google search on her name.

Originally posted by Crowdog
Nice letter Keith. I can't write either, and I still did it. If I can do it, anyone can.....

Keith, do you mind if I post your letter on my web site?

Crowdog
www.crowley-offroad.com


Thanks, and go right ahead

Originally posted by Rockcrusher


This latest assault is directly tied to the above info and the driving force behind all of it is Karen Schambach, a resident of the Georgetown Divide.

Know your enemy - do a Google search on her name.

Rockcrusher,

You are very right about this bitch....

Putting the brakes on OHVs (http://www.enn.com/features/2000/07/07142000/schambach_13126.asp)

OHVs: In The Money And Out Of Control (http://www.nordicvoice.org/issues/ohv_summary.htm)

Crowdog

This is a very sad subject. But, we need to look at the facts. All it would have taken is one set of tire tracks in the wrong place to make the environmentalists pissy. Now, everyone can say "damn that asshole," but let's be honest, how many times have you been on a trail and done something stupid in haste not considering the consequences? Something like your buddy's rig is badly busted up in front of you, it's pouring rain, one in the morning, you gotta work in 4 hours. So, you pull up onto the side of the trail or into a ditch to get around him because your winch is needed up there. One set of tire tracks. It could be YOUR tracks they are talking about. We all have a responsibility to take care of OUR trails. And they are our trails, but they are others' trails as well. Yes, most of the enviro-freaks have gone a little overboard, but they are touching on a few points. They can't bitch if they never knew we were there, right? I even went as far as shutting down my beloved Scout in order to build a smaller rig because mine was getting too close to causing damage to the trails and the surrounding environment. I didn't want to be THAT guy. It may sound like I am taking the tree huggers side, but maybe we all need to hug the trees that we say we love so much. I know I don't want to drive halfway across this country to see the Rubicon and find a bunch of crap and torn up beauty. I don't hate the tree-hugging environmentalists half as much as I hate the guy that didn't do his part and didn't care enough.
I am now going to go write my letters and then I am going to write some more letters apologizing on the behalf of those who's ignorance overcame their senses.

If you sit down and read with an open mind what Karen Schambach has written in that article Crowdog posted a URL to you will see that she has a point. Although she probably wouldn't mind if the trails were shut down to motorized vehicle use that's not what she's really arguing for. She's pissed off at the way the government is spending tax money. She's pissed off that the state of the land isn't getting any better. (And yeah, she's a little pissed off at the noise that a motorcycle makes) Is she wrong?

And although writing letters to editors of newspapers will probably get us some sympathy, it's not going to solve the problem. WE created the problem by letting our friends shit in the woods and leave it there. I bet I'm not the only person who has almost stepped in a cowpie on the con. WE created the problem by not chewing out the jerk who made his own bypass. Sure, I've seen plenty of people cruising with the trash bag tied up to the back of the rig. But how many have you seen without one?

We gave the greenies every ounce of evidence they need to shut us down. We practically handed it to them. Regardless of their intentions and the fact that they have no sympathy for the "good" OHV users, why should they let us destroy public land? We had a chance. It lasted for the past 60 or so years.

I'm not trying to be Mr. Negative here but we need to step out of our little world we live in and take a look at the big picture: We screwed up.

Now by no means should we give up on this most recent lawsuit. We should fight it like we have every other one (I must admit that I have never actually been involved in one of these "wars") and save the land we love to use.

It's time for every single responsible OHV user to step up to the plate and take action on the trail. When you see something wrong, educate the wrongdoer and hopefully he/she doesn't do it again. By no means am I saying that there are people who don't already do this. I'm saying that everyone needs to do it.

Until the snow melts, we should figure out a way to ensure that the land managers fight back in this lawsuit and keep our trails open. Simultaneously we need to stop the degradation of the land. We can't keep fighting lawsuits. If we can keep the trail in good condition by self-policing and other things we will get the greenies off of our backs.

And I'm not sorry for the lengthy post :)

I'm gonna get flamed for this but here goes.
I have been a member of the Lake Tahoe Hi-Lo's for almost 15 years, we maintain the eastern half of the Rubicon and I have been across that trail a lot of times. In the last 5 years there has been an un-believable amount of "trail pioneering". There are probably a lot of reasons for this I won't comment on, but the bottom line is if we can't stay on the trail then the greens can use it against us.
Litter. We used to walk the trail from the springs to Miller Lake and get less than one supermarket paper bag of trash. Now we get 10 times that amount.
Noise. The noise from Spider can be heard a long way into the wilderness area close to it that the greens are hiking into. Imagine planning your backpacking trip for months and having to listen to some a**hole playing Marilyn Manson untill his battery goes dead! This will motivate them to fight us.
There have been a lot of good comments on how to fight these impending restrictions, we can implement all of them, but the next time you see someone doing something that makes us all look bad give him a piece of your mind!
The Hi-Lo's have been fighting this fight for a long time, we need the help of the entire 4x4 community to educate those few that are making the majority look bad. Granted, the greens will stop at nothing to kill our hobby, but let's not make it easier for them.
Well, that is quite a rant for a newbie :flipoff2: but I have confidence in my kevlar!
JonB

BigBadBob & jon bachelor:

You make very good points. Too often, we are giving them reasons to shut us down. Pick up your trash and stay on the trail.

Crowdog

I sit here in WI at over 2000 miles away and I have not had my blood boil this much in a long time.... I have written letters, both local and west coast and have read a lot of stuff on the internet. As an active member of tread lightly and a member of several local 4x4 clubs I can say that we (as a group) are one of the best things that has happened to the outdoor world. Leave no trace! I, and most of you probably go on more clean-up runs than anything else, does this not count for anything??

I agree with lots that has been said but my two new ideas are as follows.

Diamler (sp?)-Chrysler has a lot involved, hell a 2003 rubicon edition TJ? and every recent jeep has made the rubicon... Someone here must know someone in Detroit: Marketing. corporate, distribution, comercial.....

and then I have to assume that the 'greenies' have web groups. lets find them get on and at least listen to what they are saying, it's only when we are informed that we can take action.


I may just be babbling and a nebie babbling at that but I think these are 2 new ideas.

Originally posted by Turbo6justin

and then I have to assume that the 'greenies' have web groups. lets find them get on and at least listen to what they are saying, it's only when we are informed that we can take action.


I say we join them. We are all, at heart, greenies. We hate to see the environment trashed and we want to use the beautiful public lands that some gov official gave to us. It seems so simple. We should just work together and invite them to help on our cleanup runs. Am I dreaming? Perhaps, but it might be worth it to look into.

Big Bad Bob, I agree that she may bring up some good points, but I wouldn't go backing her opinion until I knew the facts. (For all we know she could have moved in next to Prarie City or something) This happened in San jose a while back where a bunch of residents near Reid Hillview airport complained that the airplanes were too loud and tried to close the airport. (airport was there long before any housing) The point being that you need to know facts before you can "see where she is coming from." I understand what you are saying but I am very sceptical of these people.:p

One thing to keep in mind about this lady as well is that she is not only against 4 wheel vehicle off highway travel, she is just about against every type of non-walking travel there is. She even mentioned horses:eek: This means that unless you are capable of some serious walking, you will be doing all your sightseeing from pictures and the highway

Just got this in my email.....

Crowdog
------------------------------------------------------------------

It is a sad day to see environmental extremists such as the Center for Biological Diversity, Center for Sierra Nevada Conservation, and the California Wilderness Society again attempt to close motorized access to our public lands in order to further their agenda of promoting the development of their own private playgrounds. I realize that these extremists have previously stated that they would prefer OHV activity be limited to travel only in the center divider area on freeways, if allowed to exist at all. This lawsuit against the United States Forest Service attempts to further erode the rights of the public to enjoy the beauty of our forests. California Association of Four Wheel drive clubs in partnership with other organizations will vigorously oppose these elitists in their efforts to close the Eldorado National Forest.

David Douglas
President
CA4WDC (http://www.cal4wheel.com)

In case anyone is wondering whom to get behind in this fight, I suggest looking no farther than here. Del instructed me to get this to you guys:

>Thanks Del!!!
>
>This is excellent. As I illuded to on our board and POR's, we need a
>General here.
>You know we have many many soliders prepared to fight. Please let us know
>what
>more we can do. Thanks again!
>
>Jeff (loppy)

Loppy, please let the POR folks know that I, Del, am still here to lead
this charge for us. I haven't been on the board for
a while as I am now up to my hubs in this lawsuit and the behind the scenes
stuff that goes with it. But now that BlueRibbon has
seen fit to make me a full time land use general, I will be happy to lead
whomever the heck wants to follow!! (smile).

Hey, my grandaddy told me once that we're all leaders; some just have more
followers than others. :)
Del


Del Albright
BlueRibbon Ambassador, BlueRibbon Coalition
State Environmental Affairs Coordinator, CA4WDC
Trail Boss, Friends of the Rubicon (FOTR)
Del's Web Site: http://www.delalbright.com/
Ph: (209) 304-7693 (Cell/Pager)
Ph: (209) 286-1009 (Office)
8024 S. Main, Mokelumne Hill, CA 95245

Just Got This from Del and thought I would pass it along to all those that can contribute to help fight this lawsuit.


Right now, Scott, yes, the BRC Legal Action Fund (see the web site) is a great place to send donations. I will, however be also explaining the overall plan of all the lawyers and groups that will be involved shortly. So we may know more next week. But I can truthfully say that money sent to the BRC Legal fund, ear-marked RUBICON, will make it to the Rubicon trail, just like donations sent to FOTR via me.

Yes, the area is big; and yes, we're worried about the access to the Rubicon which I'll keep talking about on the FOTR list.
Get your Rubicon friends to subscribe to the FOTR email list so my email management becomes easier. :)
Thanks, Del

Im tired of writting letters, I don't think they make a difference. Loppy definately has the right idea, fight fire with fire. We didn't have to lose Surprise Canyon, up to now we've had a very weak legal defense. Please, correct me if I am wrong. Is our problem lack of knowledge? lack of money? not enough resources? why cant we fight bear handed like the Center for Biological Diversity?:confused: I think its time to take the gloves off.:mad2:

We also rolled over when they took Stone Canyon, Santiago Canyon, Glamis, Windy point, Coyote Canyon, Mojave Trail, Chiriaco Summit, and what else....

These groups suing the government are better equiped with lawyers & trust funds to fight than the government! Our club memberships along with BlueRibbon & personal letters to government is WEAK but all we can do LEGALLY.

Personal email between us pirates might be a more pro active alternative...

Heres a copy of the email I just sent to the host of 4x4tv asking him to inform viewers about this.

Doug-
My name is Ryan and I am a fan of your show. In fact, it comes on here on Friday mornings at 9:30, and that is the only morning that I don't go to the library to study (I am a student at UGA). Anyway, I am sure that you are aware of the lawsuit filed earlier this week against the National Forest Service (i believe) on account of the fact that they have not performed studies on soil damage and such. They are being suied by The Center for Biological Diversity, the California Wilderness Coalition, and the Center for Sierra Nevada Conservation. This is without a doubt a direct attack on the Rubicon. This boils my blood! I live in GA and have never been to California, but I want to come out there and wheel, and I want there to still be trails left when I get out there. If they can close the Rubicon, no trail is safe. From Tellico, to Moab, to the Hammers; they're all in danger. We 4x4 enthusiasts have come together and fight this blatant attack! From people who enjoy Jeeps, Trucks, Buggies, ATVs, Dirt Bikes, and Snowbobiles--even horseback riders--we have to come together as people who enjoy using public land for different purposes. There is little doubt that these Eco-Extremists only want to limit land use for their own benifit--so they can enjoy hiking without hearing any vehicles.

Doug, please have a short segment on your show to inform viewers about these problems that we face. Urge them to join organizations such as Tread Lightly, The BlueRibbon Coalition, and other such clubs. Urge people to get more people involved, take them on a trail-ride, so that they can enjoy what we do, and understand our cause. Also, try to convince viewers that they MUST set an example and keep fellow enthusiasts accountable. We can't let the irresponsible actions of a few ruin it for everyone.

If you need any more information, or would like to contact the person resonsible for heading up the counter-lawsuit, Del Albright, visit The BlueRibbon Coalition's web sight, or go directly to this sight: http://www.delalbright.com/

Again, I'm sure that you are already aware of this, but I thought I would let you know how I felt about it. If you aired a short segment on your show, you could inform thousands of people who could be totally unaware of the situation. And we don't want them to find out about it with "NO TRESPASSING" or "NO MOTORIZED VEHICLES" signs.

Thanks again for all your help.

Sincerely,
Ryan Whitelaw

I'm so pissed i could rip a tree huggers head clean off.:mad: :mad3: :flipoff: :evil: :mad2: :skull:

I haven’t been to the Rubicon yet, but I can say this sight unseen:

IF THEY CLOSE THE RUBICON, YOU FAWKERS DESERVE IT!

Reading through this post and the ones on the RubiCan and the trail gate I keep thinking, no wonder it’s in danger of being closed. With a few notable exceptions (twistedmetal, bigbadbob and jon bachelder), none of you admit that there’s damage out there, or say one word about what you can do to correct that damage. Yeah you suggest some good land use rules, but you know not everyone follows those rules. So what do you do? Looks like you just throw up your hands and say, boys will be boys.

All you’re talking about doing is writing letters, filing lawsuits, making nasty remarks about environmentalists. There’s a place for those tactics, but that stuff is only secondary. Here’s how to keep it from being closed, if you really want to do something and not just sit home fuming over your keyboard. It’s an easy 3-step program:

STEP 1 – MITIGATION
STEP 2 – MORE MITIGATION
STEP 3 – EVEN MORE MITIGATION

“Mitigation” means go out and fix what got fucked up. Even if you personally didn’t do the damage. Fix it because you love it and want to have it still be there for your grandchildren to see, in the same condition it was when you first saw it.

If there’s trash, pick it up. If there’s unauthorized pioneering, use shovels to wipe out the traces. Roll some rocks to make natural barriers when the a-holes keep going where they shouldn’t. Plant trees and grass. Don’t just avoid adding damage, fix other people’s damage. And do it in an organized, publicized and fun kind of way.

You can write all the letters, file all the lawsuits and vote for all the eco-haters you want, but if you don’t fix the damage it’s gonna be closed one day, and it should be closed. But if there’s even a small group of hard-core mitigation activists, who organize (and publicize) fix-up efforts on a regular basis, you’ll win people to you side and take away the only good arguments of those who want to close it.

P.S. Just so you know where I'm coming from in the above post. For the last 15 years I've been working with a group of hard-core swamp canoers to open canoe trails on the Mississippi/Tennessee Wolf River. Most of it is on private land so we've been fighting a constant battle with land owners and others who want to close off access. Our efforts at mitigation are our biggest weapon. We don't just tread lightly, we try to make it better than it was before we started coming there. In the first years after a new canoe trail is opened, it’s amazing the amount of damage that is caused by the stupid-ass public that you open the trail for. It kind of makes you want to stop letting them in, but that’s not the solution. In spite of all the training we try to do, we have to go along behind their wimpy asses and clean up after them. But it’s okay, it keeps it open and looking good, and I’ve meet some cool people on those clean-up trips.

Originally posted by 92xj
I haven’t been to the Rubicon yet, but I can say this sight unseen:

IF THEY CLOSE THE RUBICON, YOU FAWKERS DESERVE IT!


Yes your correct you have not been there:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/trailreports/trail_cleanups/

I have and so have many of us. The problem is the bad apples that spoil the bunch. Your where also up against private land owners, not well funded, organized groups that have successful even blocked the US Military from use of training grounds.

Joe

92xj. Obviously you don't pay attention around here much. Guess all that work we did last year to rebuild all the waterbars and replant vegitation went for not.......or the cleanup run every year. Yes, damage is done BY EVERYTHING. If I walk down a trail I can cause damage. Point is don't over look the fact that some of us have been trying to help, and don't be an ass about it unless you know the facts.

IF THEY CLOSE THE RUBICON, YOU FAWKERS DESERVE IT! ...
...
...You can write all the letters, file all the lawsuits and vote for all the eco-haters you want, but if you don’t fix the damage it’s gonna be closed one day, and it should be closed.


So you're sayin that the Con should be closed:confused: WTF is wrong with you? Oh, and as for "mitigation," there have been a lot of trail cleanup runs on the Con. They get to wheel, and fix/preserve at the same time.
Next time, before you say an American icon for 4wheelin like the Con should be closed, DON'T. Just stay in your swamp:flipoff2:

Originally posted by 92xj
I haven’t been to the Rubicon yet, but I can say this sight unseen:

IF THEY CLOSE THE RUBICON, YOU FAWKERS DESERVE IT!



What they said dude. You have no idea how much effort we put into keeping the trails open out here. Proactive mitigation is and has been high on the agenda here. We're fighting a much bigger monster here than you and your canoe buddies are. Yes we were somewhat slow in realizing how our monster was operating, but now we are really keying in on their tactics and motives. These things take time. We have been sucker punched. Now, we are taking the gloves off standing to fight. Dont take everything you read in this one thread and think this is it. There's so much going on behind the scenes it's monumetal in it's stature. Stay tuned...

By the way, I'm on your side. I sure as hell hope they don't close it cuz I want to run it one day. Rckratz and Loppy, guys like you are the heroes in this thing, if you're getting out there and cleaning up other people's mess. I'm just trying to draw attention to guys like you, because I think it can be saved if enough people do like you do. We had a hard time convincing people to "waste" a run by doing trash collection and trail maintenance on the way, I'm sure you have the same problem. Hopefully this will be the sort of scare that will make people see what they have to do.
Also, don't ignore the publicity angle. We befriended one of the top sports reporters for the local paper and showed him how cool the Wolf River is. He gave us lots of good press for our clean-up efforts. I bet ya'll could find some guys like that you could turn on to the Rubicon (I know there are some already, I'm suggesting find some new ones and show them a good time on the trail).
And, don't give me this sheet about everything cause damage so that's why walking down the trail is the same as cutting ruts in an unspoiled meadow. I know I'm exagerating what you said, but the point is there's a difference. Maybe the Sierra Club doesn't know the difference, but you and I and 535 senators and representatives can tell the difference.

Originally posted by jdjanda


Yes your correct you have not been there:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/trailreports/trail_cleanups/

I have and so have many of us. The problem is the bad apples that spoil the bunch.
Joe

Jdjanda, just read up on the trail cleaning trips. Those stories showed the size of the problem you're up against, its massive. You guys kick some serious ass cleaning up, too. 80+ guys, winching, diving, turd patrol, graffiti sand-blasting, it's great - I can see my first visit will have to be during clean-up week.

Now if you'll just do that 4 times a year instead of one, maybe everything would be alright. (I aint letting up till you save that trail for me.)

Hey, aren't there at least 6,000 of us on the POR ? Don't we all drop thousands, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ into our rigs ?
Isn't it time to put up or shut up ? I've dropped more than $7,000 into my rig, and if I listen to this BB, it ain't jack. Maybe its misplaced. What good is it if you can't leave the driveway ? Where will my son wheel in 8 or 10 years ? Can anyone else spare a few $$ from their precious FAWKIN rig do some good ? Where the FAWK is WARN or Daimler Benz ? Its up to us. By the way, the schamblach wench was pissed at rude A-hole dirtbikes. They pisssed her off. Now she is getting even. Remind you of anyone ? They went to her house. Nice job guys. A few beers maybe. Almost everyone I know at work is against loud dirtbikes and obnoxious 4x4 campers. Show up at the club camp in a public campground with pitbulls and party till 4:00 am, real loud. We will get ours unless we police ourselves and support a foccused legal presence. The Blue Ribbon Commision may lead the way. If we all throw a hundred each at it, we have $600,000 for a legal presence. Think about it before you support any commerical concern that profits off us, or before you indulge yourself. If the Rubicon can be closed, its over. Step up or scrap your fawkin rig.:skull: :skull: :skull:

just fyi for those that don't know, I am a news/sports photographer for both an nbc and cbs affiliate out of chico. I also have lots of connections in Sacramento. If we need to do something, let me know and I'll make sure we have good coverage and 'live' if needed ;)
Scott

I've sat back reading everybodies post reguarding the eco-nazies, and it just gets me think how truely doomed we are. I am of probally the two percent, in my area, who actually have respect for the land that I off 'the pavement' road on. I for the most part don't litter, don't blaze new trails, or needlessly tear up trails. I see 100's that have no respect or care, and won't get any. These are the ones that would just tear down the gates after they were put up, to go drink/play with their big block 4x4 monsters. I have totally given up waisting my breath trying to get these people to even care a little.

The true problem is that the sport is just too damm popular! The new Jeep Rubicon is just that much more trouble, cause now anyone with a line of credit can be a "real" offroader! All the manufactures are promoting this offroad immage buy our SUV, and U can go blazing trails to the 4 corners of the world. WTF, U turn on Car and Driver TV, and watch these idiots not even close to treading lightly through areas that have no roads.

It has become a fad to be an offroader, and a fad to be an enviromentlist. I don't like being part of the fad! We do get neat new toys (lockers, double transfercases, etc) because of the fad, but where does it really get us? It gets us into the spot light of the enviromentlists, and then the target of them. How do we get rid of the idiots out there that think offroading is this go anywhere, do anything activity? Education? Most likely not, most people out there causing problems could care less. Write my Senetors, that is a true joke cause the ones that I would be writing, could care less about my oppion. Hell, they are the ones that are trying to close out rec areas, and I don't vote for them, so that isn't a threat.

Hopefully this fad comes to an end soon!

What we need are respectable masses to back our issues. Hell the wacos have had Presidents, actors, lawers, the city dwelers that have never been out of the city, congress men, Governers, and the list goes on. What do we have, a hand full of 4x4ers that care. The other half of the 4x4ers only care about high RPM fun. There are the horse owner assioations, they are generally well respected people, but they want the trails to themselves. The ATV/Motorcycle community, well hell they generally want to bann each other off the trails, not much help there, plus they are some of the problem!

Hmmm, how about getting a bunch of handycapped people together, and do a class action lawsuit against the Government, and the enviro-wackos, stating that they are not following the Americans' with disabilities act? Sue for acouple billion dollars, and see where that takes us. When I can actually scrape some $ together, since I will be lucky to keep food on the table for the next 3-4 months, I will donate some $ to one, or maybe some of the groups fighting our fights in court. But sadly at this point there isn't much I can do. I don't beleive that letters sent to our elected officals (mainly Democrats) do any good, unless there is $10,000 along with it.

Dose anyone know of a contact for a 4x4 club in the Lake/Mendocino Counties area of Cali, it is time for me to join that side of it.

Sorry for the waist of space. I just need to vent my opinion!

I am from KY and we do not have the amount of public lands you guys have out west. Back in the early 90's there was a group called Appalachian Science in the Public Interest that was very active in land closures in KY. We are now down to 144 miles of OHV trails. These trails are for motorcycles and ATV's only. No full width trails. The rules state that if it is an existing road then street legal 4x4's are only allowed. There is no plan for any new trails.

The club I was in and several others from IN and OH were very active in fighting these trail closures. We had some support from that AMA and East Coast Four Wheel Drive Assn. Our problem was money. We were fighting a group that received a lot of money from various sources.

But the biggest problem we faced was education. Most of the trail users refused to believe that any of our trails could be closed. Many peoples attitudes were that they have been riding there for 15 years thers no way any one could keep them out. Because of this we were unable to get support from many of our biggest supporters. The users themselves. We now have very little public land for trail use and none for full-width un-licensed vehicles.

I guess the point is, is that it takes support from everyone. If you think it can't happen you're wrong. Trail cleanups and letter writing are great but where it probably really counts is money. Money for countersuits and defense.

Everyone should be active in a club that is active itself in supporting recreational rights.

My 2 cents.

Originally posted by Toy 4Runner Man

Dose anyone know of a contact for a 4x4 club in the Lake/Mendocino Counties area of Cali, it is time for me to join that side of it.



I met a couple of guys from http://www.mendocino4x4.org/ on the trail. Can't remember their names :rolleyes:

otherwise check here:

http://www.cal4wheel.com/clubs/north.html

I moved to california in the hopes of a better life and even a chance to get to run the rubicon. Hell, I even convinced my fiance to go there for our honeymoon! But with the rate of "uneducated" OHV area users going up the trail I may as well give in and dump $3000 on Hawaii and sell my Willys and buy a Volvo!

I followed the links from some of the earlier posts and decided to go ahead and join the mailing lists from www.enn.com, www.nordicvoice.org and www.peer.org if for no other reason than to be informed of what they are doing! Go to their sites and read what they have to say. It seems that we are being grouped together with cattle ranchers and drunken frat boys hell bent on destroying the earth...from their point of view. I plan on showing up to some of their functions in my 51 year old Jeep and putting in my own 2 cents at one of their meetings. Not sure how it will go but if anything happens to me i'll have one hell of a lawsuit to file!

Even though currently unemployed, I am joining CA4WDC and the BRC and FOTR in the smallest hope that it will help the cause. And since I have SOOO much free time looking for a job, next week I am calling all the companies I have spent money with over the years on my jeep and asking them for assistance in this matter. And letting them know if the Greenies succeed, they will be one step closer to putting them out of business... I wonder what the economic impact of a thousand small businesses going under would have on the rest of the economy? They are even attacking the web... http://www.enn.com/enn-news-archive/2001/03/03062001/ecommerce_40648.asp

I cannot take this any longer. This list is full of members ranging from Executives to students to the unemployed and it seems that only a handfull are doing something to stop this from happening. If we all gave just a little more time to the matter like Del Albright, then we might have a chance at getting this resolved instead of just loosing to them.

Ryan

It will take $$$$$$$ to fight these groups , I am starting to think that letter writing is a waist of time , save the stamp money and send it to CAL4WD, BRC, CORVA. Correct me if I am wrong .

I've never been to the Rubicon, but I always dream of it. In Canada people can have interests in land even if they are not the property owner. It is called a lesser interest in the land. One of these is called an easement which gives a person the right to use a portion of another's land. The right of way is one of the most common forms that entitles one to cross anothers property to reach another point of interest such as a lake or a sea. Once the right of way has been established the owner must honor the right to cross the property, but this right of way does not extend to allowing that person to stop and picnic or build a structure.

I don't know but doesn't the con connect two towns?
Someone said something about kickin in $100 each, if these types of rules exist down there than maybe you guys can establish a right of way with the money before the feds do anything.

I've been thinking about this and realized someting. Ya'll might already know, but i just figured it out:flipoff2:

NOTE: I apologize if what I say offends anybody. I am trying to generalise two different types of people, and what they are like overall. I'm not trying to step on any toes.

Somebody said earlier "know your enemy." So, who are these folks? What do they do? How do they vote? What other organizations are they in? What other kinds of things do they want to take from us? Who are they socio-economically? And then ask all the same questions about ourselves.

So, who are they? First, they are democrats. they voted for Gore. They like the outdoors and nature. They are vegitarians. They belong to PETA and the Humane Society. They are anti-hunting. They are anti-guns. They are people who socially failed at life, but had to do something to give them power, so this is what they did. They are "groupies." They get together and talk about this stuff. They like organizations, and follow the leader.

Now, Who are we? We are Republicans. We too are outdoor people, but we are hunters and fishers. We eat meat. We belong to the NRA. We are individualists. We like to do stuff alone. thats why we hunt, fish, and wheel. We don't like to go to meetings and follow the leader, because we are our own leaders.

See the main problem? They like oranizations, we like to do stuff on our own. Thats why they can close land. more money, more *shown* support.

If you wanna see for yourself, go to PETA's web page and read about them, and compare them to the greenies. THEY ARE THE SAME PEOPLE. They have their sierra club meeting on wed, and their PETA club meeting on thurs.

So, we gotta stop them somehow, i guess by going to meetings and showing that support in our direction. If they close public lands to wheeling, closing them to hunting will be next.

These are just some things that I have observed

http://dudedad.tripod.ca/wf308.jpg

Originally posted by Martin
http://dudedad.tripod.ca/wf308.jpg

Yeah right, fawking wierdo, that's how to get support for our cause. Right after you change the oil in the creek, pull that out and tell them eco-nazis to take a hike. Join the army, asshole.

guys i've posted this on everyboard that i vist to get the word out that the rubicon is under attack.I've spent the last two nights trying to get the word out to every 4x4 board and club that i could think of.we all need to ban together on these trail clouresures wheter it be the west coast or the east coast.the one hope that we all have is the shear number of clubs that keep growing every year,hopefully all these are joining a national organzation also like blue ribbon or united four wheel drive asocation.I can assure you I won't go down without a fight.
mulescj8:mad3:

It will take $$$$$$$ to fight these groups , I am starting to think that letter writing is a waist of time , save the stamp money and send it to CAL4WD, BRC, CORVA. Correct me if I am wrong .
Letters still have impact, Rusty -- but we need to liberate some $$$ for the organizations which defend us as well.

BTT, can't let this slip...

Randii