Folks whining about the Barret trail filter made me think of this... here's the thread: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31779

Brief synopsis: Barret Lake Jeep Trail was at risk for permanent closure, so the Forest Service installed a trail filter (if you are too wide for this obstacle, then you are too wide for the trail)to help minimize impact on the trail. With that trail filter in place, seasonal travel restrictions, and an active adopt-a-trail club, we maintain continued access to the trail. :smokin:

Here's the root question -- if you build a rig for open terrain, as found in desert environs such as Moab, Johnson Valley, Farmington, Florence Junction, etc., should you be 'entitled' to use it on narrow trails, as are found in the Sierras or the Pacific Northwest?

I have an opinion (hell, that should surprise absolutely NOBODY), but I am interested in other opinions.

Randii

Lifes like that. Some trails are narrow.

Wider is better! hehe

I've not been so I don't know what I'm missing but if I didn't fit I'd go elsewhere. There a many places where us widebodies can fit without problem.

so what happens when people start driving over the obstacle and it just becomes another part of the trail? It is bound to happen

Originally posted by TRD
so what happens when people start driving over the obstacle and it just becomes another part of the trail? It is bound to happen

I've seen some narrow spots on some trails you aint gonna drive over.

I don't think that just because you built a wider vechial, you are entitled to drive it anywhere.
That's like saying I should be able to take my ski boat that sits two feet deep in water throught 1.5 foot deep marsh choping the grass as I go. just cause I could doesn't mean it right.
if that is the type of trail that you want to do, then build the rig with that in mind. if you want to build the widest that you can, then you must live with the limitation of where you can go.

Building full width is a choice, and this happens to be one of the drawbacks.

No different than the exteme guys bitchen about a stocker in a place he shouldn't be.

I have no problem if a trail happens to be too narrow and limits wider vehicles from going.

But, I have a BIG problem with anyone limiting the use of a trail by PURPOSEFULLY making it so wider vehicles cannot go.

What is the purpose? If the gate allows something 73" wide to go through, but not 76" wide - just how the hell is that 3" wider vehicle somehow "more damaging" or "worse" fot the trail?

Absurd.

And.....

After reading the thread - yeah, the gate makes sense THERE.


But how often does a width-restricting gate really make sense?

Do you build a gate just because there is one plae where two trees are that cose together? And if they are that close that you would have to restrict the width to that specific width - then you are going to be driving close enough to the trees in the first place that you will be damaging them anyway....

Walker Valley up here has gone though some big changes. What used to be obsticles, you can now drive around......The sides of the trails are being cut away by the full width monsters. They have the stability to drive up on top of one bank and slowly cut it away. There is no magic number to determine what widths should be restricted, but its not a bad idea.....

Personally it's all dirt and rock to me, and due to plate tectonics and erosion, in few billion years everythings going to be new anyway. However in the mean time if a trail is going to be closed because of the impact on it....then lets do something about it. If it means no more fullwidth, fine by me, I'm narrow :flipoff2: You can always cut your axles down

Walker Valley up here has gone though some big changes. What used to be obsticles, you can now drive around......The sides of the trails are being cut away by full width monsters.
I've seen narrow rigs drive around obstacles, too. :(

Personally, I don't think wider is better -- or worse, for that matter. Wider stance certainly helps on sidehills, but on narrow trails, ability to choose lines is reduced. You can argue that either way ad nauseum, since different lines in different conditions could minimize impact (which is the goal we all should be aiming for, IMHO).

The thing is that many jeep trails were originated/maintained by miners, loggers, hunters etc. driving narrow vehicles... and many of these have been widened excessively (Walker Hill comes to mind on the Rubicon). You can't pin that all on wide-track vehicles, but staying ON THE TRAIL on a narrow jeep trail has gotta be hard if you are a foot wider on either side. Mebbe you don't see to many trails like that any more, but it *IS* something to consider when you build a rig...

...and if I see someone cutting down a tree to make the trail wider to fit their truck, or see somebody driving over a trail filter, you can be damn sure I'll read them the riot act. This is what we need to do, as a community -- if we don't self-police our own, the gates and fences will continue to go up between us and our public lands.

Randii (who put that soapbox under me? :D )

Originally posted by Nobody
...If it means no more fullwidth, fine by me, I'm narrow :flipoff2: You can always cut your axles down

Glad you're not making the rules.

What's next, no trucks on the trail unless they're the same make, model, year and color as yours as well?

Originally posted by randii
[...and if I see someone cutting down a tree to make the trail wider to fit their truck, or see somebody driving over a trail filter, you can be damn sure I'll read them the riot act. This is what we need to do, as a community -- if we don't self-police our own, the gates and fences will continue to go up between us and our public lands.

Randii (who put that soapbox under me? :D )


Sad too...
We are so whipped into submission that we can't cut down a tree....


Like that trail created itself... or no trees were cut when the trail was made.... or that housing developments cut MILLIONS more trees a year but that ONE tree is such a "big deal".

Well you know - it is the submissive thinking that we have let ourself get into that is the reason THEY ARE WINNING.

I will say it again - the day we agreed to "stay on existing trails" was the day we LOST.

(Now let's see who can't grasp what I am saying, and takes that entirely the wrong way :p )

Grasped, DRM... yet disagreed.

Randii

Originally posted by randii
Grasped, DRM... yet disagreed.

Randii

Which part do you disagree with?

Originally posted by DRM



Sad too...
We are so whipped into submission that we can't cut down a tree....


Like that trail created itself... or no trees were cut when the trail was made.... or that housing developments cut MILLIONS more trees a year but that ONE tree is such a "big deal".

Well you know - it is the submissive thinking that we have let ourself get into that is the reason THEY ARE WINNING.

I will say it again - the day we agreed to "stay on existing trails" was the day we LOST.

(Now let's see who can't grasp what I am saying, and takes that entirely the wrong way :p )

As I said before, it's all dirt and rock to me......but if just anyone could cut down a tree here and there, things would get out of hand very quickly.

The trees in walker valley are money.....if wheelers are killing to many tree's its money out of someones pocket....From what I understand the money from the tree's goes into schools etc.....anyway all the trees are going to be cut at some point, difference is they don't get money for the trees cut by wheelers. Much of the wheelin territory up here is under similar circumstances......

I'll play the game, but when everything is finally closed,

I GUARANTEE I'll still be wheelin !!

Im biulding my axels just wide enough to fit Barret i love that place some times you just have to think when biulding

Which part do you disagree with?
I haven't the time this week for much of an argument, and perhaps I am focusing too specifically on your anecdote, but I am concerned about the folks that feel it is their 'right' to cut trees on public land.

These are *our* public lands -- all of us -- and individuals should exercise as much care as is possible to minimally impact it, unless they are prepared to navigate the complex relationships between land managers and stakeholders. This is a continuum, and there are a lot of grays between the black (anyone can change anything without consulting anyone) and the white (even the most minute change requires consulting every possible user), but that anecdote -- tree cutting -- leans toward the black to me.

Different lands are managed to different standards -- some may be managed to the condition of the land 200 years ago, others may be managed to the status TODAY. This also weighs into the continuum...

IMHO, YMMV, don't wanna fight today, etc. :p

Randii

Originally posted by DRM



Sad too...
We are so whipped into submission that we can't cut down a tree....


Like that trail created itself... or no trees were cut when the trail was made.... or that housing developments cut MILLIONS more trees a year but that ONE tree is such a "big deal".

Well you know - it is the submissive thinking that we have let ourself get into that is the reason THEY ARE WINNING.

I will say it again - the day we agreed to "stay on existing trails" was the day we LOST.

(Now let's see who can't grasp what I am saying, and takes that entirely the wrong way :p )


Agreed whole heartedly.

Like randi, not time to expound, though.

lots of trail runs put on by clubs in wooded areas run very strick width restrictions, this is nothing new. if you don't fit between two trees on a trail, nothing is gonna help, especially not climbing all over them wedging yourself through, tearing all the bark off and scaring them. (the trees)

i say lots of width restrictions are completely neccessary and useful, some probably aren't. but anyway you cut it, we see people on the trails all the time tearing sh^t up and squeezing their rigs in places they probably shouldn't be. ( ahem, full sizes ) now if you run trails that are all rock, this isn't a concern, but when you are killing trails like left hand canyon up in boulder, and you can see just a few seasons take there toll so badly on the trail you feel disgraced to run it, well.... course i run the trail without killing it, but there are plenty of others who don't, and i will admit i've hit some trees on accident.

You know what Randii, sometimes you need to learn when a question is just a question... and not every one of my questions are loaded.... :rolleyes:



Trees were cut to make the trail - period. Would there have been some uproar if Mormon Joe had cut that tree to fit his wagon that is 87" wide? Then why is it such a big deal now?


What SUCKS is that now we have to tiptoe around just to keep what we have...

And it is my opinion that will be the death of our sport... Well meaning people who "just want to make *them* happy" are shooting us in the foot.

if you want to build the widest that you can, then you must live with the limitation of where you can go.

Well said! Most people now a days are only building there rigs up to look like the next guys anyways. If all of us veteren wheeler's decided to go back to the 2.5" lift 33x12.5s, limited slips, non cut up bodies, etc..... all the younger wheeler's would most likely do the same. I don't mean to offend any of you newbie wheelers by these comments, but I think in general people follow trends, it's part of life. When I first started 4 wheelin, I and all my buddies did the same thing.

Jeff

Trees were cut to make the trail - period. Would there have been some uproar if Mormon Joe had cut that tree to fit his wagon that is 87" wide? Then why is it such a big deal now?
Mormon Josiah was being actively encouraged by his government to homestead and put down stakes in the New West, to shape the land to his needs! Anti-access activists did not exist.

Today, the government is lobbied mercilessly to ensure that minimal changes are made to the lands.... and anti-activists not only exist, but are well-funded, well-entrenched, and popular.

Mormon Josiah is dead. The gubmint has changed. Times have changed. THAT is why it is such a big deal now: the context is entirely different.

Randii

Barrett lk trail goes through some trees that are too tight for fullsize rigs so they were just making new routs around so the gate works on that trail but it isn't a fix on everyother trail.

Hey i still have 2.5 in of lift and 33s, its all i need

...the gate works on that trail but it isn't a fix on every other trail.
Agreed.... it is just one of many tools that we can use to help keep trails open.

Randii

At a bob hazel event at the badlands (900 PRIVATE acres), We had to use tree "savers", even though the OWNER of the trees said he could care less if anyone used them...Hazel's group was gonna disqualify me because my wife was wrapping a chain around a beat-up old tree... ROFL
We have lost the battle up to this point... it's just a matter of time.

There are extremes to everything :rolleyes:
The areas i wheel, we are catching heck for the wild cat trails.
Most of them a Samuri will not fit on.
It"s an extreme.
Those little 4 wheeler things just go all over the damn place.
Then we take the fall.
Another extreme: Those big monsters on 44" tires.
They tear the land so deep a tractor cannot even get thru to a field.
Oh well.
Mormon Joe was a pioneer in a remote un-populated enviroment.
Today with the population, things have to be different.
By the way, death to the Eco-Commies:flipoff2:

This thread reminded me of a Hummer we found wedged between two trees in Northern Arizona. The guy had dragged the Hummer up to the front door somewhat"narrowing" his rig in the process.

He was probably on his way back to town for a chain saw when we found his truck:rolleyes:

Yeah, I think that in some cases the trail should be left narrow and no one should blast, cut or otherwise massively alter the trail by mechanical means. Sure the trail was cut through the trees to begin with. But if you alter it for a full width truck with wide tires to squeeze through then you just took the challenge away from the guys tith the narrow rigs.

there are some trails ( R.I.P. in Sooke on Vancouver island comes to mind...) that have a "gatekeeper" obstacle.... which will limit the width of the trucks that can pass ( I think it was 76" outside of tires ) the reason for this is that you WILL fall off of a sidehill/shelf road potentially TYD....

BTW the gatekeeper is 2 very large douglas fir trees that you'd need a 60" bar to even attempt to fall...... and there is no turning around once you commit..... oh joy and fun:D

Originally posted by randii
Here's the root question -- if you build a rig for open terrain, as found in desert environs such as Moab, Johnson Valley, Farmington, Florence Junction, etc., should you be 'entitled' to use it on narrow trails, as are found in the Sierras or the Pacific Northwest?

I think there are some pretty narrow trails here around Phoenix that I would not want to run full-width on.

Jay

http://www.mindspring.com/~jayk3/bbspics/Anaconda1.jpg

http://www.mindspring.com/~jayk3/bbspics/Anaconda15.jpg

Originally posted by dog walker


Well said! Most people now a days are only building there rigs up to look like the next guys anyways. If all of us veteren wheeler's decided to go back to the 2.5" lift 33x12.5s, limited slips, non cut up bodies, etc..... all the younger wheeler's would most likely do the same. I don't mean to offend any of you newbie wheelers by these comments, but I think in general people follow trends, it's part of life. When I first started 4 wheelin, I and all my buddies did the same thing.

Jeff

Dont flatter your self so much. Just because we started behind you doesnt mean we wont pass you up. All you old guys can go back to what ever you want but I for one am going foward. First rear steer and then manually extendable wheel base . I agree that most people in this sport are just trying to keep up with everybody else but when they have all fizzled out, I will still be going. For the truly innovative minds, half of the fun of wheeling is constantly improving your rig. For me it is a compitition with myself to see just how well I can build it.

No problem w/gatekeepers, whether they're for trees, safety, or egos.
If you're to wide move to another trail or hitch a ride and save gas, money, the stratosphere and embarassment.
There really is no reason why anyone affliated with this board needs to set themselves up for disappointment by not knowing the requiremnets of a given trail.
All you gotta do is ask - lord knows there's plenty of DRMites ready to keep you on the straight and narrow :D

Dont flatter your self so much

Lol, Gimmie a break numb nuts.

I think there are some pretty narrow trails here around Phoenix that I would not want to run full-width on.
Ha! Serves me right for generalizing! I stand corrected...

Guess I need to get my butt down to Phoenix to do some wheeling, eh? It has been more than two years, and apparently all the trails have gone narrow! :P

Randii

so randii, ever check that e-mail account?

#3 is the only important one:flipoff2:
________
Hot box vaporizer (http://hotboxvaporizers.com)

Originally posted by jeeper111


Dont flatter your self so much. Just because we started behind you doesnt mean we wont pass you up. All you old guys can go back to what ever you want but I for one am going foward. First rear steer and then manually extendable wheel base . I agree that most people in this sport are just trying to keep up with everybody else but when they have all fizzled out, I will still be going. For the truly innovative minds, half of the fun of wheeling is constantly improving your rig. For me it is a compitition with myself to see just how well I can build it.

I see you have the rear steering down, but where's the adjustable wheelbase :flipoff2:

http://www.ihpva.org/people/tstrike/rwsbck6.jpg

How bout wide axles and Narrow tires?

63" wide axles and 38x11x15 boggers

Hazel's group was gonna disqualify me because my wife was wrapping a chain around a beat-up old tree... ROFL

:rolleyes: i can't believe how some people think. just cause people have been killing the tree for quite some times doesn't mean you have to finish it off. as for colorado, trees don't get cut down to make new trails. period. all of our trails are old left behind mining roads that have become difficult through time and weather. course, where i'm from in texas everyone burns the trees down, but thats another story, and thats only cedar. where was i? oh, yeah, don't use chains on trees, thats just plain mean!

Originally posted by aaronlosey


:rolleyes: i can't believe how some people think. just cause people have been killing the tree for quite some times doesn't mean you have to finish it off. as for colorado, trees don't get cut down to make new trails. period. all of our trails are old left behind mining roads that have become difficult through time and weather. course, where i'm from in texas everyone burns the trees down, but thats another story, and thats only cedar. where was i? oh, yeah, don't use chains on trees, thats just plain mean!


Mean ??? What are you talking about ? (hope you are kidding).

I kill trees all the time. I actually cut off their limbs and stack them up (like cordwood). I have a huge pile of tree torsos in my back yard, waiting to be chopped up into pieces... : )

The point wasn't that the tree is already beat-up...it was that the owner of the tree didn't mind if the trees are scratched, but the hazel group is so spooked, they are doing the antis work for them.
Hell, they took a dozer and knocked down 2 dozen big trees to make the "log" run.... Bwahahaha.... die trees !!

Since we are making the trails doable by the everyone by cutting the trees out of the way maybe we should go ahead and pave in some of the big holes so the rest of the stockers can get through.
Good idea:flipoff2:

It's fawked up when you can't do this and you can't do that I agree. But when people are putting alot of work into trying to keep trails open and you say fuk 'em then say fuk the greenies how the hell is that helping?

Maybe the rest of us don't have access to private wheelin so we make due and follow the rules so we can atleast have some fun...

Like that trail created itself... or no trees were cut when the trail was made.... or that housing developments cut MILLIONS more trees a year but that ONE tree is such a "big deal". Well you know - it is the submissive thinking that we have let ourself get into that is the reason THEY ARE WINNING.

I will say it again - the day we agreed to "stay on existing trails" was the day we LOST.


I am so glad to see someone else who thinks this.

To me, the whole idea of “existing trails only’ indeed the whole “Tread Lightly” concept is such ludicrous hypocrisy as to be virtually incomprehensible.

Today, the government is lobbied mercilessly to ensure that minimal changes are made to the lands.... and anti-activists not only exist, but are well-funded, well-entrenched, and popular.

Mormon Josiah is dead. The gubmint has changed. Times have changed. THAT is why it is such a big deal now: the context is entirely different.

Have you no lumber industry in the US? Are there absolutely no new housing or industrial developments being built anywhere? I just don’t get it – how did you ever get sucked into this…Man, they sure did win when they actually made us mercilessly beat on one another for supposed indiscretions that are so incredibly insignificant in the grand scheme of things. I mean, I could post a picture of me cutting a tree on a trail, and a huge number of my fellow fourwheelers would go ballistic…accusing me of all kinds of crimes against humanity…but I could post a picture of a nice new subdivision, or strip mall, or hydro electric dam, or ….. and nobody bats an eye.
I kill trees all the time. I actually cut off their limbs and stack them up (like cordwood). I have a huge pile of tree torsos in my back yard, waiting to be chopped up into pieces... : )

The point wasn't that the tree is already beat-up...it was that the owner of the tree didn't mind if the trees are scratched, but the hazel group is so spooked, they are doing the antis work for them.
Hell, they took a dozer and knocked down 2 dozen big trees to make the "log" run.... Bwahahaha.... die trees !!.

Dirtrod…I am soooooo with you on this one ! I not only cut them up and stack the corpses, but I let them lie around in the elements for year till they’re all dried up …and THEN I bring their body bits in an armful at a time and BURN them…..6 cords a year…. Man, so many appear to be sooo brainwashed. Where do they think all those shelves full of wood at Home Depot come from? Here’s a hint: wood=dead trees!

Originally posted by BillaVista


Have you no lumber industry in the US? Are there absolutely no new housing or industrial developments being built anywhere?
<snip>
I mean, I could post a picture of me cutting a tree on a trail, and a huge number of my fellow fourwheelers would go ballistic.

I do see a difference. You have to have a permit and have the land zoned and jump through a thousand hoops to build a housing development or log an area.

If you cut down a tree on MY trail *I* don't appreciate it. If everyone was out doing their own thing there would be trails all over the place criss-crossing meadows and everywhere else.

That is the reason we have the restrictions that we do. I am not saying I agree with them, they are definitely out of control, but the sad truth is that the public is not smart/interested/whatever enough to take care of things for themselves.

BillaVista, not that I really disagree, but how would you like it if I came took some of your trees to burn in my fire place?....without asking you first....You'd probably park a bogger on my throat.

It's all about money....when I look out my window, I see mountains with clearcuts.......that's where I wheel. If I cut tree's while out wheelin, it's stealing money from the owners, If it gets out of hand they close the trails.

I don't see anything wrong with making new trails to places that trails don't go yet. But if you're having to cut down big trees then your vehicle's too big for the area. If your truck can't push it over it's too big :D Yeah, you may only have to cut 1, but then the next guy cuts another, etc etc. Then the next thing you know you have a fricken' rutted nasty road through the woods.

I haven't really sculpted any 4x trails, but I've made a few sweet singletrack mt bike trails. I was PISSED :mad3: when some school trail crew thought it was a good idea to "clean it up" and trashed a bunch of cool tunnels and tight corners.

I agree that a bunch of the Tread Lightly stuff gets carried away, but we gotta share with each other! Pick up after yourself and don't rip up the place and we'll all get along fine. At least until some greenie gets in a bad mood and starts taking soil samples and counting frogs :mad:

I do see a difference. You have to have a permit and have the land zoned and jump through a thousand hoops to build a housing development or log an area.

Oh...so it's better for the "environment" because of burocracy ??
You make my point, WE humans make these seemingly arbitrary rules, which usually equal the rich and powerful do whatever they like....if you're a tree....all the permits and red tape don't mean a thing!



but the sad truth is that the public is not smart/interested/whatever enough to take care of things for themselves.

Yea, can't argue with that...and it is sad isn't it.



how would you like it if I came took some of your trees to burn in my fire place

No problem..go ahead


?....without asking you first....

oh, thats's just plain rude !


You'd probably park a bogger on my throat

nah...I'd just let the dog out...he kinda thinks of them as all his trees anyway, and he might have a few words with you :D

It's all about money....

Yea...point taken:mad:

:flipoff2:

The gatekeepers are nice to keep a trail that's got either a tight spot or a dangerous narrow spot in its existing state. There are few more annoying things in the world than heading out on a trail with some tough spots only to discover some idiot with a chain saw "improved" it to get his Daddy's SUV through. I say gates are good where appropriate. There are plenty of places a wider rig can wheel and life's full of choices. Go wide and you'll be limited here and there - as someone above noted you personally get to make that decision when you either buy the rig or build your own.

We have a similar ethic in mountain biking. Narrow single tracks have an evolution of their own similar to an offroad trail - certain times of the year some spots are tougher than when they dry up later. But if there's a double root climb that's a bitch for you or you can't get over it on your mountain bike, rest assured there's someone else who rides the trail for which it's a favorite challenge or something they get serious air off. Leave his spot alone, and if you don't like to walk that section go find another trail.

Doing heavy trail mods is defacto wrong in my book and since we've proven that as a society we don't give a crap about the other guy a gatekeeper is a reasonable fix to prevent the "wides" from taming down a trail for the "narrows".