are you getting enough oil ???

Obviosly fuel injectection kicks ass, but at what point do you need to shut it down? If you got OP are you still good to go?

Even with a carb I've been to the point where my OP drops some.....I would think that's bad.

you need a Dry sump :p
soon as the white smoke starts pouring out the exhaust pipe, its time to shut down and bust out the winch

I usually don't drive upside down but I do drive up at high elevation. High elevation and then driving at strange angles will fawk with your idle and fuel air mixture.
This my friend is why I opted for My injected motor.

If you've got OP, yes, you are good to go. The problem is you won't if you are actually upside down. A buddy of mine who flopped his on the roof found this out when all the oil drained out his air box :eek:

But if your OP drops at extreme angles, isn't it logical to say its sucking a bit of air......what do you suppose your main bearings think about that?

Originally posted by welndmn
you need a Dry sump :p
soon as the white smoke starts pouring out the exhaust pipe, its time to shut down and bust out the winch

What brings on the white smoke? That's a cylinder thats not firing correct? This shouldn't happen with FI should it?

Originally posted by Nobody


What brings on the white smoke? That's a cylinder thats not firing correct? This shouldn't happen with FI should it?

...Oil slipping past the rings and being burnt in along with the fuel/air mix...

Originally posted by Nobody


What brings on the white smoke? That's a cylinder thats not firing correct? This shouldn't happen with FI should it?

um, no. white smoke is the cause of burning oil. :rolleyes:

From my deisel experience

White is a puking injector or dead cylinder
Black is no fawkin air
Bluish is oil burning

When carbs are puking at angles I always see black----super rich from the flooding same effect as not enough air.

Originally posted by Nobody
From my deisel experience

White is a puking injector or dead cylinder
Black is no fawkin air
Bluish is oil burning

When carbs are puking at angles I always see black----super rich from the flooding same effect as not enough air.

Well over here in the land of spark plugs its different. Take a carbed engine or EFI and let it run. Dribble a little oil or ATF in via a vaccum line or the throttle body. You come back and tell us what comes out the pipe. Believe me it will be WHITE!

If you are getting to angles where OP is a problem and the reality of Dry sump just isnt going happen then I suggest looking in Summit or Jegs. Both companies sell small OP resivoirs, it can hold like 3 quarts of oil under pressure and if you suck air it will pressurize the system. When the OP returns it will refill the resivoir. Great idea and it is only like $300. Cheap insurance if you are on you side or your lid alot.

um, no. white smoke is the cause of burning oil.

Don't ya mean visa-versa newbie?:flipoff2: :flipoff2:

why would oil get past the rings, but the combustion charge doesn't...maybe time for new rings

Just run an airplane engine if you are really worried about it. Damn things will run at any angle you want, including upside down for extended periods.

Even on gas motors, I've aways seen burning(rings, valve seal) oil as a bluish tint..I guess in small amounts its near impossible to tell......


I've seen those resivoirs in the summit mag. Pretty cool, but I wouldn't need one. I see a lot of people that might though.

I just see all the extreme wheelers running constantly at extreme angles and I think to myself "that just can't be good on the engine" Obviosly its part of the game... but how long are their engines lasting?

white smoke is cool. :smokin:

When do you shut it off? When you hear it knock, of course! :grinpimp:

Originally posted by Cutter
why would oil get past the rings, but the combustion charge doesn't...maybe time for new rings

Go take your rig out and flop it and see how it does, even with your seemingly fresh motor (its obviously only a few years old) Piston rings are designed to hold cpmpression of high pressure gases on the Top side of the piston, much different then a heavy liquid coming up from the bottom.

Oh yeah it's white smoke! for those non beleivers go out and get your engine why off angle and watch what happens.

Just replace all your engine bearings with roller bearings and pack them with grease :flipoff2:

dont you guys watch commercials?? just get the latest engine oil additive, they drain the engines dry and dump sand in and water and everything and the engine keeps running with no damage!! yeah right.

Yeah, and the "Tornado" will give me 30 horsepower for 20 bucks!

NE-Roktoy is correct. I tend to see white smoke a lot. It's oil slippin past the rings. But, you should see the color of smoke when your buddy forgets to take the rag out of the intake when he bolts on the new carb and blesses it with fire for the first time. It's sure not white, I can tell you that!

Oil burns blue, Atf and anti-freeze burn white, and fuel burns black...

A little time without oil won't kill a engine at low speed, it's not good for it tho...

I have seen the old engines run for a long time (10-20 min.) with no oil pressure and still keep going for another 50k miles.

Well, hate to tell ya, but the last three times I've been on my side it's been white smoke. I'm pretty sure I'd remember putting atf or water in my gastank. Tell you what, C'mon down. Wheel go wheelin, there's an 80% chance I'll knock it on it's side then you can get a photo.

I know i'm still a newbie, but, unless you have a hydraulic winch, why would you keep the engine running when you are on your roof??:( Can someone politely enlighten me?

Cuz, if you're runnin SX's, then there is always the chance you could hook up and right yourself, thus cancelling out your friends' laughter that you knocked it over. So, in the words of Homer-"Yoink!"

Come on folks, engines can run without oil! Ever watch the Prolong or Dura lube infomercials!!!:rolleyes: :skull:

looks white with a bluish tint to me :)

<IMG width=506 height=375 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/lanceF.jpg">

Yup. That ain't no ATF or anti-freeze. That there be oil in all the wrong places! That's how you get all those "hard to reach places!"

thats good defense there! get out the spy hunter smoke screen so its harder for your competition to see the obstacle. looks white to me. sure the ATF isn't just spillin? i know ATF burning is white, never seen oil though. everyone i know that fires up after rolling has hydro-locked the engine with oil:rolleyes:

Originally posted by FULLSIZE
thats good defense there! get out the spy hunter smoke screen so its harder for your competition to see the obstacle. looks white to me. sure the ATF isn't just spillin? i know ATF burning is white, never seen oil though. everyone i know that fires up after rolling has hydro-locked the engine with oil:rolleyes:

looks like lance's ride...and there's no atf in that rig....unless it's in the atlas if there is one....and it ain;t spillin'

Oil burns white when you roll...maybe because it's mixed w/ all the other stuff (gas, air) but every non-believer needs to suck it up and handle your sh!T....anyone want some cheese w/ all this WHINE!!!! :flipoff2:

I have seen oil burn blue....picture an s-10 w/ a 2.8...they blow blue smoke from the factory...but that's not the same volume as rolling over.


also picture any dodge caravan 4 or more years old...they blow white smoke @ 300 miles :D

Originally posted by Sillyneck


looks like lance's ride...

Is that me? I think it is!

Yup, that was me. :rolleyes: :D
http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/lanceE.jpg

Originally posted by injectedEB
looks white with a bluish tint to me :)

<IMG width=506 height=375 SRC="http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/lanceF.jpg">

Looks bluish to me too




Originally posted by whatdaphuk
I know i'm still a newbie, but, unless you have a hydraulic winch, why would you keep the engine running when you are on your roof??:( Can someone politely enlighten me?

You're readin just a little too deep :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Lance
Yup, that was me. :rolleyes: :D
http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/lanceE.jpg

Is this supposed to be funny??? Cuz I'm about to piss myself........:laughing: :laughing:

C'mon guys get me outta here.........guys, guys......hey where's everybody going :confused:

Run an oil acumalator!




I was wondering if you have a hydrolic winch chould you have a PS pump on a Briggs for a backup and just T it in your existing lines?

Originally posted by whatdaphuk
I know i'm still a newbie, but, unless you have a hydraulic winch, why would you keep the engine running when you are on your roof??:( Can someone politely enlighten me?


Everyone knows if you groove your SX's with an air vortex grooving pattern, and run them at about 4psi, you get a tire oscillation condition at 2500 rpms, which creates a swirling vortex, around the tire.
The swirling vortex will,l propell you forward (or rearward if you throw it in reverse) , even while on your lid.
Works great, Ive done it many times,(mostly downhill though).

Im sure someone could post a pic or a link to a site, that shows the "air vortex" grooving pattern.

:flipoff2:

If you flop or 180 and the engine dies and it sits for a while before it is righted. Do you typically need to pull plugs and crank it? or can you just let it sit for some time to let the oil (hopefully) drain by the pistons.

Can you damage an engine this way due to "oil lock" or am I just crazy????????:smokin:

Kman

I've never had any problem after a roll. If it is oil burning I'd bet it's comming into the valve covers and getting pulled into the crankcase vent sys., rather than getting by the rings. I run mesh breathers so that's probably why mine doesn't smoke after a flop...Most of what I see is spillage on hot exhaust...

aaaaa, thanks for the info. And i guess with the engine goin the oil doesnt all try to run to the heads???

Dunno. Looks white to me. :flipoff2:

http://www.outdoorwire.com/gallery/trailshots//4x4_Trailshots//Competitions/Goodyear_Extreme_Rock_Crawling_Championships_ARCA/Cedar_City_UT_May_00/Course_A_Stage_1/1A_wCJ3.jpg

http://www.outdoorwire.com/gallery/trailshots//4x4_Trailshots//Competitions/Goodyear_Extreme_Rock_Crawling_Championships_ARCA/Cedar_City_UT_May_00/Course_A_Stage_1/1A_wCJ4.jpg

More:
http://www.outdoorwire.com/cgi-bin/gallery/imageFolio.cgi?direct=4x4_Trailshots//Competitions/Goodyear_Extreme_Rock_Crawling_Championships_ARCA/Cedar_City_UT_May_00/Course_A_Stage_1

Sorry for the size, but I LOVE these pictures!

Randii

what i've never quite been able to understand, is why can you pull wheelies on a carburated motorcycle for blocks (or miles, in the case of some guys....) be nearly vertical, and never have a problem with fuel delivery?
even after crashing, all of my bikes would still keep chugging faithfully away, while laying on their sides, until i crawled back to shut them down.
yet it seems to be a huge concern with carb'ed 4x4's, sometimes even on very minor slopes.
does it have something to do with the amount of fuel sloshing around in a large float bowl, at really low rpm?

:confused:

Originally posted by Lance
Yup, that was me. :rolleyes: :D
http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/lanceE.jpg

Definitley a situation where AIR lockers would be needed... or a skyhook..........


if I remember correctly a babbit plain bearing should only need 10 psi oil pressure for every 1000 rpm........so as long as you are just idling you shouldn't do any real long term damage. even oil under zero pressure will form a hydrodynamic wedge in a plain bearing,
besides all the startup wear is on the lower shell anyhow. running the engine upside down just---evens it out----:D

Originally posted by twistedmetal
Cuz, if you're runnin SX's, then there is always the chance you could hook up and right yourself, thus cancelling out your friends' laughter that you knocked it over.

Unless your hair gets caught, then you are stuck... LMAO :laughing::laughing:laughing:

Here's an idea I've been half-ass kick around in my head. How about some hydraulic cylinders that are mounted upside down on the rollcage. That way, when you roll it you can flip a switch and knock it back over! In case you're wondering, yes. I tend to spend time reflecting on why my hair always gets wet when I wheel. And the water is always just deep enough to catch a mouthful on the way over. Tastes like crap and fish, too.

Originally posted by twistedmetal
Here's an idea I've been half-ass kick around in my head. How about some hydraulic cylinders that are mounted upside down on the rollcage. That way, when you roll it you can flip a switch and knock it back over! In case you're wondering, yes. I tend to spend time reflecting on why my hair always gets wet when I wheel. And the water is always just deep enough to catch a mouthful on the way over. Tastes like crap and fish, too.

anyone else thinking battle bots here? :D

Originally posted by BornInAJeep
Just run an airplane engine if you are really worried about it. Damn things will run at any angle you want, including upside down for extended periods.

Just for an FYI airplane engines (built for airplanes) are radial engines and have different oiling systems. The planes that use car engine's suffer exactly the same problems cars do.

Originally posted by poppycock


anyone else thinking battle bots here? :D

Actually I was:D

Acouple of points about running an oil accumilator:
1) You can run a quart or two lower (with a 3 quart accumilator) to cut down on windage (oil kept in suspension as the crank turns) freeing up some HP.
2) You can plumb in a selanoid (sp?) to keep it from releasing pressure after you kill the motor and use it to pressurize your mains before startup. This is especially helpful if you have $$ in your motor versus my junkyard special.

Originally posted by Sillyneck
I have seen oil burn blue....picture an s-10 w/ a 2.8...they blow blue smoke from the factory...but that's not the same volume as rolling over.

Damn Silly! That was harsh! True, but harsh!

MY honda burns about a quart every 100 miles. I got tires of putting oil in it so I stopped. It has been going for aprox 600 miles with no oil :D. When i do put oil in it this nice haze follows me everywhere, it smells nice and for some reason no one ever drives behind me.

When i am done with it Ill flip it on its lid and see how long it runs like that. :flipoff2:

Ill take pics hahaha

Lance- that pic reminds me when as a kid i used to put turtles on their backs and watch them struggle to right themselfs... yes i have issues hahaha

Originally posted by welndmn
you need a Dry sump :p


How is that going to work? You going to put the oil tank on a gimbal?

The pump will suck air when upside down!

http://www.drysump.com/images/7010a.jpg

Dry sump is the way to go.

May take some special work, but inside the oil tank all you need is a gravity feed pickup. Like they use in R/C airplanes (heavy pickup at the end of a flexible tube, gravity makes it go where the fuel goes.) Problem with it is cost. A decent dry sump system will cost you $2k, less if you can find the parts used. Essentially for a V-8 or V-6 engine, you'd need a scavenger at each end of each valve cover and one at each end of the oil pan.

Still $2k is alot less than $22k for a REBUILT 250 to 300hp lycoming aerobatic aircraft engine. BTW, not all aircraft engines are designed to fly upside down. Most of the common engines are opposed 4 and 6 cylender engines (like the Subaru and Porsche) Except for the cost, and the problems trying to mate one to a car tranny, an aircraft engine would be interesting for a competition rock buggy. Aircooled, light wieght, low cg, run at any angle, etc...

Oh, and I believe you can get reverse rotation aircraft engines as well. Which means you could run a Ford 9" upside-down for the higher pinion and still drive forward. (making the necessary mods so you don't burn up the pinion bearings of course)

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/

Yup, those airplane engines are air cooled, but you have to think how much air is moving across the motor from the prop and from the air speed. A rock buggy, with an airplane motor, at idle wouldn't do worth a chit. Unless it was prop driven. :eek:

Originally posted by FYRMAN
Yup, those airplane engines are air cooled, but you have to think how much air is moving across the motor from the prop and from the air speed. A rock buggy, with an airplane motor, at idle wouldn't do worth a chit. Unless it was prop driven. :eek:
Yea but how long does the engine in a comp buggy run, and how long does it get to cool between obstacles.

Granted I have not been to a competition, since ARCA came to Phoenix a few years back, so maybe I'm thinking wrong....