Here's a possibility:

Modified stock class broken up into two divisions, a Pro, and an Amature.
Both would run the same course at the same time. Both would have to pay the same entry fee. Pro Stock would run with vehicles as the rules are written and would compete for cash.
The Amature Stock would run under a handicap system, but run for trophies and merchandise.
Handicap system would be based on modifications made based on a vehicle OEM form.
No handicap for:
31" and under tires
stock suspension, period
complete full body, no triming

Added points for modifications:
5 pts. 33" tires
10pts. 35" tires
5pts. increase of wheel base up to 2.5 inches
5 pts. cutting of body
5 pts. suspension modifications/configuration changes

Now with this mind how many more come out and try to compete

Rich

check out the 'pro rock' series that Superlift is doing. two classes

Yes PRO-ROCK has two classes but their modified stock has tighter rules than ours, so I can imagne the calls or lack of competitors their attracting.
Rich

Personally, I think the "handicap" class needs to be open to anything & everything, mod-wise (safety taken into consideration obviously). Kind of like handicapping bowlers or drag-racers. You can drag race a Chevette against an alcohol funny car & give the Chevette a chance to win by handicapping the faster car. Same applies here. Let 'em run a Sniper in the class, but penalize the snot out of it so that the driver essentially has to run 100% clean to even have a SHOT at winning.

TEX

Those rules are better and I think may attract more people into that class.

If, a big if, I was going to run my daily driver truck, I still would be exceeding the max width by 7".

I'm know my opinion isn't worth much cuz I'm on the other side of the world, but I think you're on to something here. As long as the handicapping was combined with courses which I knew were not intended to cause me to roll (if I roll it's my own stupid fault, not the way the course is laid out), then I would definitely sign up if i was in that area.

The big challenge is convincing guys that the course's are laid out to not cause them to roll after all the carnage that regularily gets played up on the boards and in the press. BUT if you got past that, then the handicapping would definitely make a guy with a regular level of mods feel like he could compete.

Like I say, I think you got the right idea, so I don't want to mess with it, but ..... might I suggest that you start off with a slightly higher level of mods? What I mean is, how many people are honestly going to compete in a bone stock cj? I'm mearly suggesting you start off assuming the minimum vehicle level is 33 inches tires and 1 locker, with stock running gear (engine tranny xcase axles), and start deducting from there.

Anyway, I really think this would encourage more grass roots participation.

I like the idea but not the $300. Still too much to go wheelin on a weekend.

You get it worked out and count me in later in the year when the kids dont require so much attention. It's heading in a good direction though.. sometimes trophy competitons are the most fun.

Killer! I like the idea, especially what Tex was saying...Keep it open to EVERYONE...That way the course isn't as extreme, and everyone has the same advantage...Then the guy with 42's and coil-overs on full width axles (with zero experience) could see that running with the big boy's is what he/she want's to do...AFTER he/she runs a few trials. If not they can still have all kinds of fun competing on an easier course. Kinda' opens the door for those on the fence.

Originally posted by Sweet75
I like the idea but not the $300. Still too much to go wheelin on a weekend.

Ah, but that's just it. You can ALWAYS go "wheelin". This really isn't about wheelin for recreation. It's a contest. A chance, under controlled circumstances, to gain braggin' rights.

Same thing applies in mud. We get folks braggin' about how bad their "mud" truck is. But, if they want to be taken seriously, they need to show up to a competition & lay it on the line - in front of their peers AND thousands of spectators :)

TEX

i agree with Tex, while the entry fee is steep to me, it wouldn't be keeping me away. it'd be a chance at my 15 seconds of fame ...

- jack

I can get the same 15 seconds of frame running against the buggies... I don't see the need behind charging $300 for a trophy class. It needs to be high enough to keep the numbers down. But I'd say that the $300 for the other classes is already doing its fair share of that. One man's opinion.

Your spliting a class and still need to drive the purse. All entry fees go to the purse. $300.00 is the cost to run just one event out of the entire series, If you sign for the series the cost is $200.00 per event and 200.00 for the series fee. again all fees go to the purse.
Rich

Me like, much better, if I can finish the cage in time I'll be for the June event. Cage still required on hard tops, or is half bar ok? Also how many points for 32" tires 2.5 or 3 points, I'll run my 32x10.5 swampers.

Joe

Rich,
Why don't you leave the mod. rules the way they are, and instead of measuring spring mounting points, just measure the wheelbase. Require the total wheelbase to be 2.5" of stock. This would make the Toy guys happy, the waggie leaf guys happy, and me happy too. I ran in the stock class at the SITR event (we won). I thought most of the rules were good, except no beadlocks (safety reasons), and no hydro assist. I would love to come and play with you guys, but it is too far from South Dakota. I am pretty sure we will be doing the UROC in May. The rules are a little sketchy, but they allow beadlocks, and hyro assist.

Brian we had already dropped the mounting points rule in favor of the wheel base increase max by 2.5".

we want beadlocks but don't require at this point.

no power assist in the mod stock class (35" tires don't really need it).

But we'ed love to have you come out and play with CalROCS.

Rich Klein

Hey Rich...... I think that the dual level modified stock class is a good idea.......... I would think about promoting this class to the milder, trail-rig family style clubs.......maybe as a Clubman Challenge or such........ the Clubs could sign up for a spot and then the Clubs could pick one member to send down as a 'ringer' for each event.
It may spark more interest in a Prizes/No cash Class

It would certainly get you some experienced (perhaps older.......) drivers who can Wheel the heck out of a CJ on 33's( for example) and who don't really want to trash their truck...
it would also perhaps be more enticing for sponsors as the guys with the nicer more built-up trail rig style trucks are the direct
target for most of the 4wd accessory vendors.......

I don't know. maybe this is what you already have going on.( Ihave never been to Calrocs event .yet.)

i want to play :( :( :(

Complete full body, what about the cutouts for flares on an early bronco and is there points for lockers. Also where and when could a guy get his rig inspected ahead of time.

its comming along better, I like it.....but come awn, complete body, pfffft

Much better. :) Now I just need to get the roll cage, and winch, and the entry fee.....well....I think it will still be a while for me.

But much much better. :)

Why limit tire size? If you can manage to keep within all other parameters, why should you limit tire size? Just wondering.

How many classes do we need???? Geez. If you fit the stock Mod. class and want to compete, sign up! Don't complain or beg for extra points because your rig is set up with "less" than the max amount of mods allowed :rolleyes: you'll just be that much more "The Man":smokin: when you spank the rest of the class on your 31" tires. Or the other option- build your rig to fit the rules, don't try to change the rules to fit your rig. If your worried about trashing your rig, well, you only have to push it as far as you want to. Nobody is forcing you to hammer down and roll your rig. Wheel it just as you would outside the comp if you want. Bottom line is don't be scared and just rip!!!!!:D

Originally posted by VooDoo
How many classes do we need???? Geez. If you fit the stock Mod. class and want to compete, sign up! Don't complain or beg for extra points because your rig is set up with "less" than the max amount of mods allowed :rolleyes:

Perhaps you missed the other "I'd like to compete but ....." post by Big Rich. Basically he is contemplating how to INCREASE the number of people in the mod stock class.

I might be interested for the 2003 season/series. I have work and family obligations this year, but next year would be pretty easy to find the time. Keep the ideas flowing and keep the average unsponsored, home built trucks in mind as you figure out how to set the rules.

Realistically, if someone is gonna play in the rocks, they are going to have a minimum of 33" tires and better gearing or a locker. I know tht's how I ran Rubicon the first time - 33" BFG's, 4" skyjackers, open diffs and "armstrong steering"....but I had the FJ40 4 speed tranny-3 speed tcase for gearing. I fought my way thru and had a blast. Then I got serious about rocks and added a SM420, power steering, a SOA to accomodate 35's, and ARB's F/R.

Just my thoughts and ramblings....

This is so easy just have three separate classes, modified, pro, and unlimited. Modified should be anything stock with just lift ,tires, and lockers ( of course roll cage too ). Pro class should have the rules that are now in place, and Unlimited should be for anybody, that way Brutus and his 48" tires can play too! :beer: :beer: :beer: :rasta:

I think you may need to do some research. That's how it is now and the series founder is looking for ways to increase participation. Which is what we are working on. But thanks for the recap...

i think a stock class is :rainbow:

if you own a rockcrawler and have 31" tires you really need to find another sport cause that is lame. i know i don't wanna watch a competition with a bunch of stock rigs not making easy obstacales.

rockcrawling and especially competition rockcrawling is not a easy or cheap sport. why are you trying to cater to wanna be's ?

either go big or go home. :flipoff2:

-- modified stock comments ---

I think IFS-delete should be allowed in the modified stock class. I see no difference in the relative upgrade of a SAS Toyota vs a TJ with a long arm kit. Swapping in leaf springs is so flippin common I don't see it should force a rig into the Pro-Modified Classification.

This one item IMO would open the door to alot of toys, zuzus etc that meet the 35" tire limit, but clearly don't belong in the next class up competing with the likes of Lance and Jeff.

I also think flatbedded pickups are OK.

-- amatuer class comments --

Camo sure, its :rainbow: but what's the goal of the amatuer class?

If it is to groom folks to graduate to a higher class then make it easy and cheap and let them (maybe us :p) have fun.

So what if its the shallow end of the pool, everyone's gotta start someplace.

So, make it easy, make it appealing, make it easy and folks will come. but its gotta be cheaper too.

here's some ideas in no particular order

- make it an easier route with little or no chance to roll, or at least limit the chance for a bad multi-roll.
- allow sign ups on race day,
- use the same rules as modified stock
- maybe prohibit winching? remember this is the amature class. Perhaps station a winch vehicle on the obsticle and if you have to get winched you take full points.

how do you stop sandbagging? simple: If you ever finish in the top "N" (say top 3 ?) of the amateur class you can't compete in this class again. Your rig could (say your wife or girlfriend could drive it) but you as a driver have just graduated to the next level and can't come back.

Entry fees? I don't know what your costs are so its hard to make suggestions, but my guess is the $200 fee is too high for the casual wheeler.

If costs could be lowered by changing the purse structure, and still cover the other stuff? ...
What if *winnings* were paid out as raffle tickets toward the general raffle? Maybe have a couple prizes designated just for the Amatuer class (again entice more entries) If you do better, you get more tickets, but even if you sign up you get some. If you attempt an obsticle you get some. If you kick ass you get more. It could allow for for a set amount of prizes, and maybe even the entry fee could be made into a variable purse etc.
Also, there should be a "showup prize" for each entrant in the Amatuer class so if a newbie shows up and tries hard, he (or she) goes home with something as a souvenier.

Finally,

Make damn sure the amatuer coarse is doesn't interfere with the other classes.

Just some ideas so flame away. I know the goal isn't to dilute the hard core stuff, but he asked for input on the lower end :)

- Dan

Dan H, you da man!

$75/head, 20 people sign up, that's $1500. Put $1000 for prises and $500 for administrative costs. $400 first place, $200 second place $125 third place $75 fourth place and four $50 prises for some kind of best efford deal.

Us guys with the rigs that are in progress are the vendors target customers! You don't need an atlas if you already have one!

Hell, I'd sign up!

Originally posted by camo
i think a stock class is :rainbow:

if you own a rockcrawler and have 31" tires you really need to find another sport cause that is lame. i know i don't wanna watch a competition with a bunch of stock rigs not making easy obstacales.

rockcrawling and especially competition rockcrawling is not a easy or cheap sport. why are you trying to cater to wanna be's ?

either go big or go home. :flipoff2:

Actually dude, I'd have to put smaller tires on my junk to run it. But, my reason I'd run this class is the same you wont run at all. Going to the fully open class would suck way too much time away from my family. because, like you, if I was to do it it'd be full on. A trophy class would be for nothin but fun. I dont care about class limitations in terms of mods.... the lack of seriousness (for me at least) would make it doable and still be fun.

Rich, I spotted for a Toy at the SITR event last Nov. and we were planning on running either yours or SITR's events this year . But with his new rule of not changing the spring location more that 2.5inch and he is running the All Pro rear springs kinda screwed us. Yes he could change it, but he would rather not. As you know everyone with a Toy changes their rear springs. And them your class will not allow his to run a flatbed. So either way we will not be running this year unless someones rules change. Also please post everytime you change your rules as I can not keep up with them.:D

Ryan

I dig the handicap idea (this does mean an SAS tacoma fits in the handicap thing, right?). I gag at the price. You're close. Very close.

Personally I won't be out there competing for money. I'd be super happy with one of those cheap plastic trophys.

Back in the day I used to race BMX bikes under the ABA. There weren't many rules in terms of equipment but the class system worked like this: You started out a novice and in a particular age group. Say 13 novice for 13 year olds who are novices. Once you accumulated enough points from winning (1st, 2nd, 3rd) you moved up to intermediate. From there you became an expert. From there you got old and eventually went A pro. After that you were a AA pro. AA pros are the guys who you see in the magazines (for racing at least). The only guys who made money were the pros. Kind of like college football.

If you didn't place in your first race as a bmxer you got a big fat tropy with a little sign on it that says "Try Harder." Nice guys.

Oh. And it cost something like $45 for the year and a few dollars per race. They had judges and everything. Pros didn't compete at local races, only at nationals. National events were a tad more expensive. $60 for the weekend I believe.

I'm not saying adapt all of the BMX example above. Just trying to provide more insight.

Regardless, $300 is half of an ARB. 1/4 of a winch. 1/8 of a crawler. I can't see myself paying that. Especially more than once in a season. To be competitive (i.e. compete in all events) you need to be rich or be sponsored. It simply isn't practical for the weekend warrior.... yet. Keep up the good work. I like everything but the price.

Rich,
so now if I were to go get one of those new tj rentals with 30" tires, toss in some lockwrongs, I'd be ok cage and all, I'd have to bolt on a winch, and get the insurance. :D since the beater xj won't be done anytime soon, any rental places down there, we could fly down winch and lockrites as caryons, wonder how airport security would like that?

What's wrong with beadlocks that they would be banned for "safety reasons"?

Phil

where did you get that beadlocks are banned.....I'd rather everyone had them, for SAFETY......In CalROCS you can run any rim.....
Rich

Got no beadlocks From this:


Originally posted by Brian E
Rich,
Why don't you leave the mod. rules the way they are, and instead of measuring spring mounting points, just measure the wheelbase. Require the total wheelbase to be 2.5" of stock. This would make the Toy guys happy, the waggie leaf guys happy, and me happy too. I ran in the stock class at the SITR event (we won). I thought most of the rules were good, except no beadlocks (safety reasons), and no hydro assist. I would love to come and play with you guys, but it is too far from South Dakota. I am pretty sure we will be doing the UROC in May. The rules are a little sketchy, but they allow beadlocks, and hyro assist.

Did I read it wrong? Looks like he is saying no beadlocks for safty reasons? I was wondering what that means?

Phil
With MRT beadlocks.

it looks like he was saying that they weren'tallowed in the SITRcompetition that he competed in...

I to believe that is what he is saying.....CalROCS does allow and will at some point require all competitors to use beadlocks and also the rope replacement for winch cable. Just another major safety issue.

Rich

Ok, so any idea why the other competition wouldn't allow them for safety reasons? Just curious.

Phil

Originally posted by 1TONTJ
Ok, so any idea why the other competition wouldn't allow them for safety reasons? Just curious.

Phil

It's SITR. Just consider the source ;)


TEX