OK, so I was thinking about this, and my old man offered to build me the first one if i get him all the dimensions for this. I have evrything pretty much thought out with some help from some great people. Now I just need to know if there is a market for this. I wanna do this because I love the idea of a auto with low gears, but I on't want to pay the massive coin for the gears in a 20. I am gonna build the adapter from the C4 to a 203, then build another one from the 203 to a Dana 20. I figure I can build this for a reasonable price, at least the first one. I just need to know if there are other people out there that would be interested in having this made in their rigs. Chances are you would have to move the rear end back, but that is easy enough to do. What do you guys think?

Dimitri

i think you would be better off goin from a C4 to a stock 135? ranger case cut in half to the dana 20 its only about 8 inches longer and the ranger case is 246:1 plus you can get the adapter fronm a stock ranger C5 so you only need a custom adapter from the 135? to the dana 20 :smokin:

its already been done from 135? to 135? manuel case's
so im doin the 1350 to D20 and it shouldnt be long now:flipoff2:

Originally posted by alx
i think you would be better off goin from a C4 to a stock 135? ranger case cut in half to the dana 20 its only about 8 inches longer and the ranger case is 246:1 plus you can get the adapter fronm a stock ranger C5 so you only need a custom adapter from the 135? to the dana 20 :smokin:

its already been done from 135? to 135? manuel case's
so im doin the 1350 to D20 and it shouldnt be long now:flipoff2:



Huh??? That sounds cool, but I am still confused on this

Dimitir

rangers have 2 different t cases a 1354 and a 1350 both made by borg warner sp? They have a 2.48 low range using a planitary gear set like a np 231 does. They have an aluminum casing or out side what ever you want to call it. all the planitary setup is in the front half of the case so cut off the front input area and then build a custom back half that will bolt to a dana 20. also need to get the rear out put respline probably to fit the dana 20. These can bolt up to a c4 using the tail housing and output shaft off of a c5 found in old rangers. The length of this would end up being around 8". I have looked into doing this with two ranger cases and it seems possible just haven't had the time to completly build one. Not sure who would cut and respline the output shaft though. The guy i know of that has done it with two ranger cases is in ohio and didnt help much when i tryed to ask him questions.

Matt

thanks matt thats a better way to put it and by the way im almost done with mine ill let you know how it turns out .
i just need the shaft resplined and finish weldeing up the
adpater but its at 8 1/4 inches long so far :D :D

Sweet send me some pics of it when you get it done. I have lplayed with the idea but school keeps getting in the way. Hopefully this summer ill get to try to make mine then off to the hammers to give it a test :D

Matt

why build an adapter?
did ford never offer c4-203s?
the 203-20 has been done to death
local guy has a 435 in an EB with 203-20
so I am unsure you are going to be breaking any ground here but looks like great combo

What are the ratios in the c-4? I had a 69 mustang with a C4 and i remember 1st gear holding to 50mph, doesnt seem to me it would crawl well:question:

Well the 203 never came behind a C4, so that would be breaking some ground. AS for the 203 20 adpter, I am not trying to break any ground here with that, just thinking that it worked in the past, so why not mkae one for everyone to share in at a small cost. The adapter is being sold from a few companies, but they are VERY expensive, and they do not need to be. If I make it I would sell it for a fraction of the cost involved, but to hell with that. If I make one, I will just make the one. I am leanoing toward the Ranger setup now anyway. It is pretty basic, and I can fab upo that adapter in a day max. Moser or Dutchman can respline the output shaft and I am ready to rock and roll with it.

The C4 sucks as an off road tranny, but if you stack dsome boxes behind it you can get down to about 40 or 50 to 1. NOt a bad setup with an auto. Throw a low stall torque converter in there, and you have a great setup with some slip. I will not be breaking shafts everywhere I go, and I can still enjoy the trail without a manual.

Dimitri

First, how strong is the ranger case?

I know if I was running a complete custom low range box I wouldn't want a 1/4" ton ranger box being my weak link. I really like the idea of super strong 203 low range box. Plus the 203 will only add ~5" to the total length, the way I figured it.

Flatty, how far does the governor stick out the rear of the C4?

This is a great idea, I'm sure you could sell at least 5 case once you can post pics of your set up. I'm still doing my own, so don't count me in unless price is way cheap.

Mr. N I agree wtih your thinking on this. I still have the design you sent me for the shaft, and I scored one today. I am gonna start figuring out how to do this on my setup. When I do saell it, I will sell it for my cost plus labor, not trying to make a huge profit on them. I figure I can make the whole thing for about 200-300 so that is what I will sell it for. Then the other adapter, I gotta see what is involved in that. I know I have to respline the output to the 203, to amke it fit the D20. Other than that, I think it is pretty self explanatory. I can make it very similar to the ORD doubler kit. It is very basic. My only questions is do I need a bearing in the adapter for the shafdt to ride on? Oh well, Time to get cracking on this bastard. I gotta go find a C4, a 203 and a D20 for cheap now. I am sure I can dig them up.

Mr N, I will let you know how it is coming along. I am even wondering if I can do this with the 4wheel drive output on the C4 as well. If I mate the cone to the 203, with a SMALL adapter, I am sure this can work. After all, what is the point of having a LARGE adapter here anyway. The 203 center is only about 4-6" long. I figure if I can build it to be about 8" long total, I am styling. Time to go climb under the rig and see what is going on down there.

Dimtiri

Did you get that EB registered? I got my flatty registered. There would be a pretty good market for that lots of guys use the 435/203/20 combo in EB's because it only lengthens the diveline a tiny bit and you don't need new shafts. The C4 is longer and the governor sticks back inside the adaptor, so like you were thinking it is gonna have to get longer. If you add about 6 inches longer than stock people can swap the front driveline to the rear and save the driveline shop money, but that is too little rear driveshaft in my opinion mine already binds at full droop. I would say if you could make a kit that only lengthened the driveline 6 inches there would be a decent market, but any more than that and the market would be pretty small. Ever consider C6 factory adaptor to 203 to dana 20. If you go that route you really need to lengthen the wheelbase. The EB dana 20 output shaft is 10 spline like the older weaker jeep output shafts. Currently the only upgrade is the $400 Wild horses 32 spliner. Eb'ers tend to be shying away from dumping money in front of that output shaft recently. The cold duck system that uses 2 dana 20's is sort of popular and you can get a decent deal through the guy that developed them, I think the 203 box would be slightly better but it is not as low and the weak link would still be the stock output shaft. Good luck with that project. I was going to do the same thing but now I am saving up for an Atlas.

Gordon, I have not even tried to register the Broco yet, but will soon. SO I take it your Flatty worked out well.

As for the 203 setup, Can I run a C6 behind a 302? That may be anothyer option, but I need something else there. The EB D20 is weak, but liike I said, the 203 will allow me to get lower right now while I am saving for the Atlas. The C4 will give me enough slip that I can get away with it. If I was running a 435, I thik I may encounter problems.

You did bring up a ood point. The governor on the C4 does into the adapter, I was thinkig if i shorten the stock adapter, I can bring the 203 in some, and then have the D20 off the ass of that. I can lengthen the whoel thing by about 6-8" here. I had my Flat fender witha 13" rear driveline, I can't see this being shorter that that. Gordon, I wanna get togehter and talk about this some day. I live in San Francisco, but my bro is in NOvato. I can get up there one of these days and excahnge ideas. Like I said, I have the machinist, now all I need is the brain ppower to make this work

Dimitri

Conveniently for us, Ford used an identical round bolt pattern and 31 spline output shaft for all of the truck type transmission and transfer case combos. This means you can take your Ford NP203 and bolt it directly in place of most Ford transfer case without adapter and shaft changes

That is great, but from my understanding, the 203 and the 20 use a different spline on the input. Time to make sure.

Dimitri

Originally posted by Flatty
That is great, but from my understanding, the 203 and the 20 use a different spline on the input. Time to make sure.

Dimitri

D20 input is 28 and 203 is 31spline...at least the ford versions

I have a small block bellhousing pattern C6 and C4 as well as a dodge 203 reduction box and a spare dana 20. If you want me to take any measurments I can. I was holding onto all those parts because I have been thinking about that same project for a while.

Gordon, lets get together one fo these weekends, and start tearing into it. I have the basic idea, and once I have the template on a piece of cardboard, my old man can start up on it. And when he does something, you can be damn sure it is perfect.

Dimitri

Sounds good to me call me when you want to do it. days
707 566 1429 nights 707 836 9353

Keep me in the loop guys, as soon as you get teh 203-20 figured out get it going, i have a lot of parts, i know nothing about machincing, but can offer up some good ideas

Originally posted by Gordon
I have a small block bellhousing pattern C6 and C4 as well as a dodge 203 reduction box and a spare dana 20. If you want me to take any measurments I can. I was holding onto all those parts because I have been thinking about that same project for a while. Gordon, Please measure the length of the governor off the rear of the C4 main case.
If your C4 is 2WD how far from from the end of the governor to the end of the shaft?
Here is my 79 F150 2WD shaft pic, this is why I think it can be done.

http://77cj.littlekeylime.com/Links/c42wdsft.gif

Ok, I have an idea, has anyone gone about just building their own range box?? I have heard of using cat gears in a 203 range box, but what about replacing the box for a custom box with some sort of like 4.5:1 gears that would bolt in place of a 203 range box, but with the proper output shaft to connect to a chevy 205? Think it would work?? I havent started reasherching it yet.. but I know I will beyond this, because I have access to a machine shop, so I can go in there a fool around and try and make stuff like this. Anyone know where I can get a catalog for the gears made by Cat? I am guessing i can find it somewhere on the cat website, but hey, I am just spitting it all out... I can only dream of a 8.82:1 low TC ratio in a fullsize, oh yeah.

Garrett

PW sounds like the mountain gear Bradnod 4spd aux box.
.80 over direct and two lows in the 2.?? and 3.?? range
basically gears from an eaton semi tranny
claimed to only require 2 custom shafts a fabed case and some shift rails etc.
I want one but they arent online at all
if you are going to actually build it I can scan every magasine article on it

Just wondering how this is coming along? Any updayes on making the boxes?

Matt

I havent done shit
I bought a new project it is a 1956
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house

If you are going to be using any ford v-8, why not just use a short output c-6 (there are two, one for a 205 and one for a 203/208/both the BW). Yes they suck up more hp then the c-4. But it is only a couple inches longer then a c-4. Then you can just use a 203/205 setup. The only problem I see in this is the size of the bell housing, ranger and bII guys will have to beat the hell out of their floor to fit it. Also you will run into a problem with a real short WB rig.

OK, here is what I am gonna do. I can do the C4 setup, but it would be cheaper and easier to get a C6 that already had a 203 behind it, then make my own 205 adapter which is a walk in the park to do. I am moving the ass end of the bronco back some, so I should ahve a driveshaft after all is said and done.

Dimtiri

Originally posted by emsoffroad
If you are going to be using any ford v-8, why not just use a short output c-6 (there are two, one for a 205 and one for a 203/208/both the BW). But it is only a couple inches longer then a c-4. Do you have any measurements?
Last times I measured a C6 vs a C4 from bellhousing to end of main case the C6 was ~11" longer. Add the governor on the C4 and it's closer to 7", but that's still a lot of driveshaft to remove.

Hey Dim.........have you considered using a 700r4? I know a guy that used to work at Art Carr and last time i talked to him there he said they were busy building adapters to run a 700 behing some ford motors.....not sure which ones. He isnt working at AC any more and i havent talked to him in a while so i dont know any more than that. But consider a 700.....it will bolt to a 203 with a factory th350-203 adapter and then you build the back end however you want to match what ever the hell else you wanted back there. I know its a chevy part in a ford but who cares.........700's are great tranny with the right parts and builder and you get 3.06 or .08 first gear. Any way its just an idea. Oh you would either have to change the output shaft in the 700 ro build a adapter for that too.
Mark