Can you say 42's?

Got the rear axle shoved under the 110 tonite. Would have had it completely done, but the short side rear axle needed the bearings pressed off and I had to use the press at my garage, instead of the shop.

Anyway its basically a monster. Prolly will shorten up the rear springs a couple of inches to bring her down a bit. Front has some Fox coilovers coming, so height adjustment will be easy.

How about that big ass steering ram?

Billster

ps. Yes I know the tires are on backwards, we just wanted to see what it looked like sitting on the axle.

Another shot of the rear. The tires are 42" IROK's on WE beadlocks. That is a regulation 5 gallon bucket directly under the rear diff btw. 18+" of clearance.

Billster

Last one for now. Just need to install the axle shafts, trim the rear driveshaft, drill the pinion flange for the rover pattern, and trim the gas tank a bit to get the rear completely done. Hoping to knock out the front completely when I am off next week. Then some wheelin' at the local spots to trouble shoot before CC.

Billster

that's weak. I bet that's a cut down barrel and I bet it's photochopped from some other pic

-ben

Extremely cool. You will need a full cage at that altitude, though. Also, are you sure the ball joint attachment on the axle is up to it?

Clean your shop :flipoff2:

Seriously, looks good. But I agree with Christer, brace the top link mount on the axle.

Tobias

Hey, can you see my house from all the way up there? :)

Regulation 5 gallon bucket? :confused: I didn't know ANSI had standards on 5 gallon buckets. :flipoff2:

Seriously though, looks VERY cool. More pics please! :bounce:

Bill-

I can't wait to see it next month!

What are the plans for the front fenderwells to accomodate the 42s and are you going with the same coilover mount design KC used for David's rig?

Tis

My little truck is going to hump your backside if you have your skirt raised that high. Just a little warning.

Mighty impressive
JP

i love how you and KC keep givin me shit on how HUUUUGE my buggy is gonna be. LOL. that thing is damn tall. :eek:

edit: i just ran over there to check it out. :eek: its large. just for a size refrence, currently the top of the bed at the tailgate. is the same height as my upper lip. I'm 6'0"

:eek:

Can you say 42's?




Yep :flipoff2:

looks awesome. You did it fast too. That ball joint mount does look suspect though.

Yeah, whatever... Have any of you actually seen how large the crossbolt is in the a-arm balljoint? Its about 1" in diameter. Much larger than the puny heims people use in this area. The mount on the axle housing is no thinner than 1/4" steel and is welded on 3 sides (270 degrees). It will hold. There is also >10" of seperation between the top and bottom links now as well.

Anyway, KC and Ben chopped off about 2" of the rear springs today and it sits a bit lower now. Prolly will leave it there now until the front is done and level it to the final height then.

Here are some new picts.

Link brackets and swaybars

Billster

Here is a side shot at the new ride height.

Billster

And finally one of my son Connor sitting in the bed.

Billster

I guess it's official now...you've completely abandoned that 'less-is-more' philosophy that used to make you oh so irresistable. Very sad indeed. :shaking:







































:flipoff2: Now when do I get to drive it! :flipoff2:

Yep :flipoff2:

:flipoff2:

Shouldn't have to do any fender trimming, but I guess it depends upon how much travel you get out of your suspension. I wish I had ur motor though. I drove a Disco with the turbodiesel in France in '94. Very sweet power delivery, very smooth and quiet. And even running the mogs and Iroks, you should still get great mileage.

It will hold.

It may hold, depending on driving style, but you have definitely introduced a weak link. Consider the tensile stress loads on the welds at the rear end of the mount when you climb a hill AND have some side force on the A-frame. The 1" bolt is there for a reason.

I'm not arguing it WILL break, but personally I would do something at the rear of the mount to get a balanced design.

42's on 5" portals equals much bigger tires than most run, as I'm sure you are aware.

Hell, run it. If it breaks, fix it. Not like you can make any rig 100% bulletproof anyway.

Looks good, the updated ride height looks much better.

:beer:

Whatever. I don't want to be a hater. But keep an eye on those welds, as breakage will propagate to more expensive parts.

Rig looks fine as a whole. Wish it was mine.

Onward now A-arm haters... :flipoff2:

Rear is done, so now the front starts:

Billster

This is Ben without his usual evil grin ham camera face.

Another front shot:

Billster

Last one for now.... Hope to have the thing linked up and will be waiting on the Fox coilovers, then on to the Hydro and such.

Billster

ps. This pict proves I can still get it up in the bed... Doh, get up in the bed!

I'm giving it two thumbs up, nice looking rig!

Last one for now.... Hope to have the thing linked up and will be waiting on the Fox coilovers, then on to the Hydro and such.

Billster

ps. This pict proves I can still get it up in the bed... Doh, get up in the bed!

Bill:
Using a step ladder in that manner is VERY unsafe. At the very least, you should be wearing safety glasses, if not fall protection. Not IDLH, but unsafe all the same.

The portals look great, even the A-arm links.

Peace,
PT

Former safetyman, old habits die hard.

ps. This pict proves I can still get it up in the bed... Doh, get up in the bed!

Once again a prime example of a thread that is worthless without pics! Oh yeah, those *other* pics. :flipoff2:

Shouldn't you be using some 7" taller springs or something? :D

Have you guys looked at what sort of anti squat numbers you are running??

With a stock A-frame and the lowers moved down to give you 10 inches of seperation plus the 42in tyres plus the 5in of portal I dont think the rear suspension is going to behave that well.

Sam

Anti Squat should be no worse, in fact probably much better than a 404.1 Unimog. My lifted 404 reacts very well offroad, with anti squat numbers far above what people think is acceptable here on Pirate.

Anti Squat is much more important on Road vehicles. And is a relatvively moot point on a truck like this.

Anti Squat should be no worse, in fact probably much better than a 404.1 Unimog. My lifted 404 reacts very well offroad, with anti squat numbers far above what people think is acceptable here on Pirate.

Anti Squat is much more important on Road vehicles. And is a relatvively moot point on a truck like this.

I agree that the AS numbers should be less than your 404 although Im not so sure that your 404 behaves very well on steep climbs when it struggles for traction. Im sure I have read many times here how your rig humps like a mo fo when it struggles for traction. A well setup rear linked suspension doesent do this - it doesent hump up and down on the climbs, it remains stable and smooth and keeps the tyres planted on the ground.

I dont believe that this rig with the portals and 42s is going to behave well offroad - in fact I would almost bet anything on it. Its going to begin to hop in the rear end at the slightest hint of wheelspin.

Only one way to find out though........

Sam

Actually looking at the pictures again I think its going to have more AS than your 404.

I also believe that AS percentage is probably the most important thing in an off road vehicle. A change in height of the upper link chassis mount of less than 1 inch can create noticable differences and IMO the links on this rig would be off by more than 10 inches.

JMHO

Sam

Thanks for the input Sam. We will certainly let ya know how it turns out (which may be soon). We have a nice 50 degreeish flat slippery sandstone face at a local wheelin' spot that will be perfect for testing for AS. And I have a good mpeg recorder on my dig came so we can all see. If AS is a problem we can always run a bubba engineering fix like a rear limit strap for the immediate future (CC and EJS). But it is always a work in progress and nothing is set in stone (or permanent steel for that matter).

Front radius were done last night, and we rebuilt the CV's in the front portals (man what a tedious pain). Will start working on the front tab work today, and hopefully get in some Auroras this evening to get the two bottom links done. Then maybe the front coilovers will get here soon and we can start working on the hydro. And maybe, just maybe get it out for a few shakedown runs before CC in about a month.

Billster

Do I have to come down there and chase the Squaters off? I am thinking of putting an air shock above my third link to keep the humping/climbing action to a minimum.

JP

Actually sam, Any report that all my mog does is humps rocks is sorely mistaken. Granted, if I hammer the holey helll out of it, it will proceed about 2-3 feet, and come back down, but that is not flat out hop. My truck will smoothly churn the tires on any obstical. So will Bills.

I will put my mog up against any other truck on hill climbs, except over powered comp buggies.

Excluding minor mistakes, the Anti Squat came out to around 149% Very acceptable.

Thus, you cannot visually tell if Anti Squat is bad or good on a static truck.

I would be very interested in the results of your anti squat tests Billster .
I may not fully understand the principal but I have always thought that a very high degree of AS was desirable offroad.IE when climbing, weight is transferred to rear end causing it to squat thereby reducing traction on front axle. High AS geometry such as Unimogs posess should neutralise this weight transfer to a degree. There must be some reason why Unimogs with relatively high lateral and longditudal C of G tend to remain stable well past the point that some other trucks with a lower static C of G ,leaf sprung LandRovers and Landcruisers for example turn turtle.
i am extremely pleased with the AS charecteristics of my 95 inch wheelbase portalled axle Landy. The rear end has single parabolics each side shackled at both ends over Rangerover axles and is located by a 43 inch long "tripod" ( three rods that pick up the lower radius rod and upper "A" mountings on the axle running forward to converge at a large single rubber bushing just behind the transfercase, thus creating what is effectively a "one link" system. This truck has proven to be a safe, capable and sure footed unit in dangerous, steep conditions, and I put that down to the high degree of AS of the rear end plus the degree of squat when climbing I built into the front suspension
(coils behind axle centreline and 3 link geometry).
Bill.

After running a few numbers, It looks like the true Anti Squat of a Unimog is actually very very low. The numbers I came up with were in the 40's Granted, I do not know if the particular AS calc can handle some of the numbers needed for mog suspension. But the numbers posted above for bills truck are very close to being accurate within about 10+/-

As for AS in general, Depends on what your doing. Also depends on the size of the truck, tire compound etc etc. Sam is very right, about AS causing trucks to hop like mad (SLADE YOU LISTENING HERE). But, in general, most AS numbers will come in fairly reasonable on most trucks, and typically, most frames and axles, do not have the dimensions to get really fawked up AS numbers, unless you are doing something stupid with your links. Another factor is, most people that claim AS is such a big deal admitably say that they could not hit the numbers they wanted, cause they could not fit the links where they wanted, and then come back to report that the rear did very well anyways. If I was designing a Comp buggy, I would consider AS a bit more, but this is a trail wheeler, and AS numbers will have little effect on this truck.

Portal rover, where are the pics. I want to see what you built.

Puffdragon, there aren,t too many photos of my rig around. I will take a few more someday.I am crap at computers but you could try this link.
http://web.aanet.com.au/landyman/Bills%20Cars/
If the link works its the camo swb, not the white110 on Volvos
Bill

I am crap at computers but you could try this link.
http://web.aanet.com.au/landyman
If the link works its the camo swb, not the white110 on Volvos
Bill

Try this link, which goes to the root directory. Then click on the Bill's Cars folder for pics.

Or some fawker with a red star could post 'em... :flipoff2:

Rig
http://web.aanet.com.au/landyman/Bills%20Cars/HYBRID%20099.jpg

Rear Portal
http://web.aanet.com.au/landyman/Bills%20Cars/HYBRID%20094.jpg

Front Portal
http://web.aanet.com.au/landyman/Bills%20Cars/HYBRID%20102.jpg

Front View
http://web.aanet.com.au/landyman/Bills%20Cars/HYBRID%20105.jpg

Excuse my ignorance: What kind of portals are those on the front end??

wow. i likey your bikey! :D

Excuse my ignorance: What kind of portals are those on the front end??

Home made. All Bills custom work

Hey Bill, is your truck at Anthonys? If so, i'll come around and take some pictures for the board.

Dave.

Home made. All Bills custom work

Hey Bill, is your truck at Anthonys? If so, i'll come around and take some pictures for the board.

Dave.
That's what I thought, looked like Rover grafted onto portals, pretty sweet. :grinpimp:

Thread hork avoided......

We put the radius arms on the front axle and put it in place today. Amazing that it fits so well. Pinion tucks up nicely next to the oilpan and clears everything. We will be able to run a much smaller lift than first thought. Now on to the lower control arms and panhard for the front.

Billster

Home made. All Bills custom work

Hey Bill, is your truck at Anthonys? If so, i'll come around and take some pictures for the board.

Dave.
Hi Dave, I am off back to Vietnam for a while. We can arrange a photo session when I return.
Thanks Red 90 rover, But I didn't want to hijack Billsters thread. Just wanted to pass on my experience and opinion on AntiSquat.
Regards Bill.

Come on Bill! Pictures of the Front?

I love it, leaf springs on what was formerly a coil-sprung axle housing.

Where's Ike to scream about the sacrilege? :flipoff2:

All of a sudden, my wanting to put my leafsprung Salisbury beneath my coiler hybrid doesn't seem so odd :flipoff2: :D

Sam is very right, about AS causing trucks to hop like mad (SLADE YOU LISTENING HERE).

Awwww, don't be a hater KC...you know I love the hop. Besides, what would I do to cure it? My hop is caused by horsepower, not AS. :flipoff2:

I love it, leaf springs on what was formerly a coil-sprung axle housing.

Where's Ike to scream about the sacrilege? :flipoff2:

All of a sudden, my wanting to put my leafsprung Salisbury beneath my coiler hybrid doesn't seem so odd :flipoff2: :D

I deleted the rear coils because I did not want any projections outboard of the frame rails. this permits me to run staggered size dual wheels( 31 inch inners/ 36 inch outers) for very steep trails that have severely eroded wheel/water ruts up to and over 3 feet deep, that the ground clearance from portals alone cannot cope with. The crossaxle ramp angle you get from having 4 3/4'' portals, offcentre differential and inner duals with the sidewalls only 33 inches apart is a combination that is very successfull in those conditions. The staggered tyre sizes also give good ground pressure for hard slippery surfaces and high floatation in soft soggy conditions.

BTW ,PT putting a stock unwidened leaf spring Salisbury under a coiler was, is now, and always will be a dumb idea. You don't happen to be English do you? LOL.

I deleted the rear coils because I did not want any projections outboard of the frame rails. this permits me to run staggered size dual wheels( 31 inch inners/ 36 inch outers) for very steep trails that have severely eroded wheel/water ruts up to and over 3 feet deep, that the ground clearance from portals alone cannot cope with.


Pics!

Actually Slade, you might change those front U-joints to CV's, and then the rear will stop hopping as much. Oh, and I forgot, do you think you can extend S1's wheel base to 110?

Oh, and I forgot, do you think you can extend S1's wheel base to 110?

I can *try*. 110 inches is so...1993 though. I think I'd do 111 just to be different. :flipoff110: :D

Where's Ike to scream about the sacrilege?

Im right here, but I dont see the big deal? I have nothing against coil trucks really (mostly their owners) Certainly nothing against the extra width of the axles. Putting a leafsprung salsbury in a coiler seems like a lot of needless work. Coil sprung salsburies arent that expensive are they?
-Ike

Looks good man. The clearance is amazing w/ portals. what's the gear ratio on those
Question: with the rear arms at such a steep angle will there be a tendency for the vehicle to want to flip over when at full droop in the rear and applying throttle? Maybe it was the pic that made them look steep. I'm thinking though that when the wheel is extended down and the arm is steeper that the drive force of the tire will travel up the rear link to the frame and want to push the vehicle over...

I don't get all this talk about anti squat. To me, anti-squat is what I need after I eat some bad Mexican food. :flipoff2:

That truck will rock, come on 110 wheel base and portals, great crawl ratio, and good width. All this "what if" talk is kinda retarded. I am glad it fits well bill, so you can lower the lift little. Other than that, just keep the pictures coming.

BTW: There are a few things that KC overlooks, but he rocks at desighning good, real world suspensions.

Edited distastfull post! Sorry for the brief interuption

Hey FrankenRover, You've got mail.
Bruce :smokin:

Edited distastfull post! Sorry for the brief interuption

Awwww....here's KC gettin' all PC on us. Hehe. :D

Coil sprung salsburies arent that expensive are they?
-Ike

D60s in FWA are VERY expensive, usually raggedout, etc, etc, etc.

Here is the next step in the chain. Plummed the hydro to make sure it would work, and it did.

Billster

And proof that Pendy isn't just a legend in his own mind!

Billster

ps. notice the chromed rear mog housing!

Here is the next step in the chain. Plummed the hydro to make sure it would work, and it did.

Billster

So that is full hydro, no mechanical connection to the steering, right? Will it still be street legal? Just curious, doubt your configuration would pass here, but my stock steering is barely doing its job.

That Pendy guy sure gets around :flipoff2:

And proof that Pendy isn't just a legend in his own mind!

Billster

ps. notice the chromed rear mog housing!

Wilsby: I think it might be possible to get full hydro through swedish regs.
T

ps. notice the chromed rear mog housing!

What, couldn't find any GOLD paint? :flipoff2: Nice of Pendy to pay you a visit...doesn't he have a job? :D

notice the chromed rear mog housing!

Nothing like a little mexican chrome. :laughing:

WTH kind of orbital is that with rear exit ports??? :confused:

Pendy sure looks all "Gussy'd up"!

The Orbitol is from Tom at PSC (Power Steering Components) It is a load reaction blah blah blah Orbitol. Should drive nice on the road all things considered.

That hydro setup will turn that into a cadillac. So much for the Popeye look.:flpoff2:


-Jeff

FrankenRover - You have posted that your link seperation at the diff is 10" - what is it at the frame end? With the extra axle wrap from the portals should you run the frame end closer together than on a standard diff or farther? I just don't understand all the anit-squat talk so I've got to try and understand in layman's terms. I'm in the process of putting my Exaxt narrowed 404s under my XJ and have the coils and lower links in the rear but trying to determine the seperation at the frame end so I can get my upper links in this weekend.

If you want to worry about Anti Squat etc, try downloading one of the free calculators here on Pirate. It will help you determine roughtly where to put your links.

Puffdragon - I have downloaded the calculator but while searching some other threads on the subject and people have said it doesn't work for portal axles due to the extra dynamics caused by the portal boxes.

Actually, it should work just fine if you input the numbers right.

Pendy sure looks all "Gussy'd up"!

So glad you noticed sweetheart.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=170713&stc=1

So glad you noticed sweetheart.

Amen! That just drips of SEXY!

-Jeff

Thanks for the input - now back to your regularly scheduled program - The FrankenRover Show

First I'll apologize for a technical post..... :shaking:

Anywho, how are you dealing with tire clearance on the front? Outrigger, fender??

Anywho, how are you dealing with tire clearance on the front? Outrigger, fender??

Yeah damn't, front pics please!

Front axle is moved forward a few inches... Axle is wider and tires are out further.... Front fender is chopped underneath the light box front cover.... Fenders are clearanced a bit along the front edge corner..... Air bumpstops to adjustably limit the uptravel....

We shall see how it all clears? Looks like it will be no problem though.

Billster

First I'll apologize for a technical post..... :shaking:

Anywho, how are you dealing with tire clearance on the front? Outrigger, fender??

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=170713&stc=1



Amen! That just drips of SEXY!

-Jeff

Where's
Discochef when we need her? :flipoff2:

How bout a side shot of the front tires.

I'm not hating here but some of us are still 10 spline, locker-free and proud.

and still holdin' up trail traffic while we bash it a few times, maybe drop in a 'fresh' $25 diff or $10 axle and bash it some more :flipoff2:

nothing wrong with 10's or with portals for that matter- just different strokes for different folks.:grinpimp:

Now that fugly green Dodge double portal baby doo-doo wagon is another story.. :barf: :barf: :barf:

Got some more work done in the shop today. Finished linking up the front, and installed the hydro ram on the front axle, and flexed it up on the lift.

Newest Stance:

Billster

Front hydro:

Billster

Front hydro mounting:

Billster

Here is one of the front links and axle:

Billster

And a look at the backend of the front links (which are 1.5 0.25wall DOM on the top, and 1.75" 0.25 wall on the bottom links).

Billster

And finally a front fender clearance shot. This is maximal intereference we could generate. This is at full stuff as well. Not too bad, but need to trim the bumper a bit more.

Billster

Billster,

Have you got a close up of your high steer arms?? Or could tell me how you did them? Did you machine/grind the knuckle at all to give you enough room to get some meat around the bolts. Is the piece that bolts to the knuckle one piece?

Im putting rear steer on the mogrover and Im up to the highsteer bit.

Sam

Hey Sam,

They are a pair of Weps high steer arms. They consist of two plates bolted together. There is no grinding involved in the install, they are bolton. You take out the top 6 bolts holding the portal together, and bolt the horseshoe portion of the high steers on, then bolt the arm onto the horseshoe with 2 BIG bolts. Very simple, and very strong. I got them second hand from a fellow PBB member. Usually sell for about $250 US new though (which is not too bad).

Billster

Billster,

Have you got a close up of your high steer arms?? Or could tell me how you did them? Did you machine/grind the knuckle at all to give you enough room to get some meat around the bolts. Is the piece that bolts to the knuckle one piece?

Im putting rear steer on the mogrover and Im up to the highsteer bit.

Sam

Billster,
What caster angle are you running at ride height? Also could you post a pic of the backside (links and mounts) of the front axle taken from ground level at the back of the rig? i am having trouble picturing the links.
4Mogger

Thanks for that Billster. Found a link and pics for Weps arms

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=192471&highlight=high+steer

Sam

Hey Sam,

They are a pair of Weps high steer arms. They consist of two plates bolted together. There is no grinding involved in the install, they are bolton. You take out the top 6 bolts holding the portal together, and bolt the horseshoe portion of the high steers on, then bolt the arm onto the horseshoe with 2 BIG bolts. Very simple, and very strong. I got them second hand from a fellow PBB member. Usually sell for about $250 US new though (which is not too bad).

Billster

Just had another look at my axles - when you bolt the horseshoe plate onto the knuckle there must be some spacers or something that go on first?? On my axles where the origional 6 bolts are located there is a fair bit of unmachined cast material around them and I dont think that the C plate would bolt up cleanly. Im thinking I need to grind the cast down flat or make up some spacers (similar to a few stacked washers)

Sam

Thats one seriously badass rig. Bill, how are you going to get the coilovers on the outside of the frame? It looks like a tight fit with the portal boxes further in than a typical axle. I like the fender trimming job, not too much.

Lookin good Bill. I like the front 4-link. Are you going to rely on the triangulation of the lowers links to locate the axle since you have full hydro?
What is the width of the front housing from flange to flange where the knuckles bolt on? Are you happy with the offset of the front diff? If so what is it:D

Looking good.
Have you ever seen a power steering suction hose on a Range Rover Classic? They have a hard plastic swirl wrap around them that is removable from the hose. It protects well from abrasion type leaks. I save that hard plastic protector when I replace those hoses. If I were working on your truck I would wrap the hydo hoses in some of that plastic protector stuff. Those hoses look like stratoflex so I think they can be trail fixed if you have extra hose with you as well. That is prolly how you planned it, I imagine. Just some thoughts for you all. Seems like you all are executing your project quite well.
Also I like to run my hot wire for the winch inside heater hose when running it to the battery. To protect it from abrasion. I think I mentioned this to Bill when I was allowed to view the creature in its lab. Once again details I am sure you all are aware of.

Hope to see it on the trail next week.

JP

How much vertical separation do you have between the upper and lower links at the axle end and what's the length of the links?

I just came back from there. NICE FRIGGIN WORK!! hydro is up and out of the way and steering wheel input feels great. the stance on the thing is just plain MEAN. the 42's look like they were made for that rig. Cant wait to see it on the trail next week.

edit: hey KC.. forgot to ask.. when are ya gonna get the bimbo's installed? they sure are pretty. :grinpimp:

Thanks for the input all,

To answer a few questions

There is some interference where the "horseshoe" mounts to the portal boxes on the high steer arms. We will either clean it up with a flapper wheel or put a washer between.

We will be running (and in fact its already on) a panhard rod on the front axle. With the hydro steering and the somewhat triangulated lower links it prolly wont be that necessary, but felt safer putting one on.

The coilovers should fit fine, as the bottom of the coilovers will go right on the upper arm of the knuckle C on the axle. Suppose to get them in on Weds, so hopefully have the rig sitting completely on springs on Thurs.

Caster is pretty close to stock right now, we shall see how much driveshaft angle issues we have at speed, as the lower arms are adjustable.

The hydro steering with the Rover pump and a Big double ended hydro ram seems to work well. Nice and quick with very smooth feel. Haven't tried anything that takes alot of force though, so we shall see.

Drove it around the parking lot last night (before celebrating at Hooters). Stood the front end up on blocks between the axle and frame, and the rear was sitting on the bump stop, but drove very nicely. No drivetrain issues or binding. Low range with crawler in low is stupid low range.... Could floor it in that range and speed was less than a slow walk.

All in all a successful first "outing".

We measured the wheelbase finally - 113.5"

Left to do before we leave on Sunday night -

Front coilovers
Fuel Tank clearancing
Bend some tube for the rollover protection
Take everything off, and paint it all
Install the air rams for the lockers and switches
Install the powersteering cooler

Hope to have all the major stuff done by Friday, then we can take it out for a trial run on Sat.

Billster

ps. Kudos to KC and Ben who have been putting in long hours to finish things up before we go to CC.

We measured the wheelbase finally - 113.5"

Left to do before we leave on Sunday night -

Front coilovers
Fuel Tank clearancing
Bend some tube for the rollover protection
Take everything off, and paint it all
Install the air rams for the lockers and switches
Install the powersteering cooler

Hope to have all the major stuff done by Friday, then we can take it out for a trial run on Sat.

Billster


Schweet Wheelbase!

I hear ya on finishing stuff up. I am just now reassembling my truck. Hoping to have it finished by this weekend so I can try and work out any bugs before next week!

Nice!

No tendency to bind with panhard AND triangulation?

We measured the wheelbase finally - 113.5".

Sweet - within 1/2" of a 416 Mog :D

Not truely triangulated, just angled some on the lower links.

Billster

Nice!

No tendency to bind with panhard AND triangulation?

We measured the wheelbase finally - 113.5"



Very cool!
I am at about 115" at compression and 110" at full lift with the airbags. At ride height, I am at exactly 112". As you said, our projects are very similar although you are progressing much more quickly.

Any updates? Should be running soon!

I think I will be ramping my on Saturday to check for suspension binding.

Essentially done with all the non-little stuff. Took the truck out to a nearby "wheelin" spot last night. It work VERY well indeed. Very stable all over, no big clunks or other funny noises. Hydro works well. Tires stay off the body work and top speed seems to be about 45mph now :).

Billster

Post wheelin' pict.

Billster

Like it, like it alot. :beer:

:-o


:eek: :eek:

damn that thing is a beast :smokin:

how friggin high is that slider off the ground?? 40"?

damn, thats awesome

Got some of the details worked out and went out to "ramp" the truck. Since we dont have a ramp at the moment - KC used the puny little Unimog bed for a ramp.

Billster

And the two badasses themselves, KC and Ben....

Billster

my RRC has more flex than that POS :flipoff2:

No, honestly that thing looks fawken orsum :smokin:

And another, notice angle of the front tire on the ground. Sitting on sidewall.

Billster

Last one for now....

Billster

BTW, that Unimog 404 is lifted on 40" tires...

Billster

Show off! :D

Now get out there and spank some rocks! You guys goin' to Moab?

:smokin: badass guys. can't belive its actually gonnna make it down. :D:D

sorry.. couldnt resist...

:flipoff2:

:eek:

Great work guys! :smokin:

--D

Dude

That is sweet.

I can't afford the coil-overs, but as those 42's look so sweet.....

I am so glad I got a set of 44's lined up for my Mog/Rover project :flipoff2:

Sweet ride!

i still wanna know how high the slider is off the ground ;)

42in tire that far below the framerail! Awesome.

well I'm 6 footish so that's how far it's off the ground

-ben

truck looks like it will perform!
btw what door tops are those??

How does your current articulation compare to what you had previously? Just eyeballing the pic, if the mog's tires are 39.5s and say 38 mounted on a truck. That puts the bottom of your tire at 37ish minus the 2 inches the rear tire is off the ground makes about ~35 inches of total articulation. How does that compare to what you had before with the 110 WB?

http://www.pangolin4x4.com/mogramp.jpg

door tops look like badger soft door tops. nice setup.

Looks very cool. Now where are the wheeling pics...

Well, We are finishing up the rear cage today, we made alot of progress yesterday, and should be good to head out to Las Cruses later this afternoon. The truck still will not be finished, but it will be very safe and wheelable. All the fabrication is done, minus the front portion of the cage, but we will have lots of tuning to do to the truck for the next few weeks. So, we will have some wheeling pics in a few days.

Soooooooooo...... :D

Soooooooooo...... :D

See this Thread (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=333236) .

that is soooo coool, what are the axles off, are they volvo??

dude read the whole thread 404 unimog

-ben

dude read the whole thread 404 unimog

-ben
i did, i just missed some, looking at the pictures....

the beast looks superb....couple of question though.

the mog diffs do they run the same direction as LR ones or does one need rotating? aslo if it is rotated does the diff lock actuator cause prodblems?

thanks

yes they run the same way. You have to swap tubes to get the right drop and shortening them some will help. Diff lock doesn't change.

-ben

thanks for that, which tubes need shortening moving...as i`m not able to look at any axles yet, but i do fancy doing the conversion on my hybrid...

soz about the questions but this isn`t a common conversion in the uk so all help would be appreciated..

we have stuff that have 2 inch lift and running 750x16 tyres, and people think they are cool.....

i wanna blow them into the weeds.........

thanks

i wanna blow them into the weeds.........



You won't be the first in the UK

I've got the axles and running sorted, I pick up the 44's tomorrow and hope to get a start on the cage over Easter :grinpimp:

thanks for that, which tubes need shortening moving...as i`m not able to look at any axles yet, but i do fancy doing the conversion on my hybrid...

soz about the questions but this isn`t a common conversion in the uk so all help would be appreciated..

we have stuff that have 2 inch lift and running 750x16 tyres, and people think they are cool.....

i wanna blow them into the weeds.........

thanks
You all don't have many areas to wheel do you? Especially not for extremely built rigs.

You all don't have many areas to wheel do you? Especially not for extremely built rigs.
yes your right, and they are trying to bad all motors off the rights of way....this country pisses me off!!!

will have to have a look when you done Redibex.

i take it your running an Ibex, did you go to the tong do..?

Bill, (RUNDOG) here. Those Portals I sold you look great. That has to be the biggest Rover I've ever seen. Your making me consider buying a series I or 109" to transfer my COMP parts onto. Do you happen to know anyone parting w/ an 88 or 109 chassis? Take care, For now, use this PM (board name ) until I redeploy home in 7mnths. Take care, and PM me some info on how to get a pick up chassis shipped to my door. Thanks. Daren Runion

How about an update. What's going on with the rig currently?

Trucks doin great. Bill finally managed to break a portal box a week or two ago. He was bouncing the truck about 8" off the ground all fours climbing nemisis 3 in Las cuses. It was about as hard as I have ever seen bill work the truck. We determined the box broke from coming down hard. Once the box broke, it spit out a couple of gear teeth.

Trucks doin great. Bill finally managed to break a portal box a week or two ago. He was bouncing the truck about 8" off the ground all fours climbing nemisis 3 in Las cuses. It was about as hard as I have ever seen bill work the truck. We determined the box broke from coming down hard. Once the box broke, it spit out a couple of gear teeth.
Thread needs more pics!
Did he make any changes when he replaced the portal? What parts were damaged and what was reused?

We still have not gotten the new portal. We are replacing the entire portal including shaft, cause theri cheap. All new parts. All we did to extract the truck was removed the inner shaft, cleared out the teeth in the box, and bolted back on for front wheel drive only. Bill still made it through almost the whole trail in front wheel drive only. He took a couple of bypasses, but for the most part he just hit everything with alot of momentum. We were amazed he made it through without a strap untill the exit hill which is a 200Ft long steep grael hill with two ledges at the top. He made it up to the first ledge, and about rolled off the side of the hill. We strapped him from that point.

The key was not getting pissed and hammering the truck once the portal broke. The case was still in good enough shape to drive on. But if Bill had been stupid enough to try to power down the waterfall or up for that matter, he would have split the case and lost the wheel making extraction very hard. We ended up strapping him down from the rear axle on the broken portal side. The rear wheel never budged, but I gurantee if he put it in crawler low, he could have destroyed the case.

Edit, the case split at the top for clarification. But the bottom half of the case had enough structure to drive on.

so is the real wheelbase 112" or 110" or 115"

112"

Hows this rig going? Is it still running the same links front and rear? any new mods?

cheers,
Serg

Frank is basically the same as it was when we put the portals in. It has proven to be almost bomb proof. Only major failure was the rear links which we kinda expected to fail with the portals. So it has new rear links now that solved the issue. Other than a few minor things like a blown portal and drive shaft, its been great in my opinion. It was rolled which turned it into a soft top. Bill opted to put in another fuel tank because the one we built for the truck had been modded a couple times and was a pain to fill and take on and off for maint. Seems like Bill want's to change "something" about it, but it just works so damn well that its hard to mess with it to much.

Thanks KC,

when you redid the rear links did you use the stock chassis mounts as before?
A frame and ball still proving the haters wrong :p

Serg

Rear lower link mounts were hacked off way before the 110 frame ever drove. The rear A-frame and its associated mounts are still all stock.. So the haters were dead wrong. Hell, we haven't even had to replace the ball yet. When we redid the rear links, we just used straight DOM rather than my bent links that I originally designed for Frank and its 9" 35 spline rear.

Thanks KC,

when you redid the rear links did you use the stock chassis mounts as before?
A frame and ball still proving the haters wrong :p

Serg

What KC knows, and apparently most here do not, is that the Rover ball is really the only way to do a 4 link on a rover (sometimes called a Y link). Unless you chop the rear off completely like Darkstar did.

The rover frame is too narrow to use two separate hiems at the axle. The triangulation is not enough. Then most who do it lenthen it, further reducing the triangulation. Then most run straight lowers. While it may work for a while, the stress on the uppers doing the locating is extreme. You fully get it, you break, badly.

I had the rover ball when KC did my rear. Then did gymastics to keep it when I lenthened the rear 10in. Still have it now, and will never change it. Using the outers to lower the roll axis angle is a huge improvement though.

What KC knows, and apparently most here do not, is that the Rover ball is really the only way to do a 4 link on a rover (sometimes called a Y link). Unless you chop the rear off completely like Darkstar did.

The rover frame is too narrow to use two separate hiems at the axle. The triangulation is not enough. Then most who do it lenthen it, further reducing the triangulation. Then most run straight lowers. While it may work for a while, the stress on the uppers doing the locating is extreme. You fully get it, you break, badly.

Interesting.
Would it be ok to use 2 top links (instead of Aframe) when you move the axle mount of the lower links as far out as possible or would the triangulation still not be enough for decent lateral control?
It probably depends on link length as well..
(this would be on my 109 with LC80 axles, perhaps next year or so.)

Interesting.
Would it be ok to use 2 top links (instead of Aframe) when you move the axle mount of the lower links as far out as possible or would the triangulation still not be enough for decent lateral control?
It probably depends on link length as well..
(this would be on my 109 with LC80 axles, perhaps next year or so.)

Maybe. It depends on the lenth of the links and the width of the axle. It should be done though, because it allows you to affect anti-squat and roll axis, which can get extremely high on mildly lifted rovers.

Maybe. It depends on the lenth of the links and the width of the axle. It should be done though, because it allows you to affect anti-squat and roll axis, which can get extremely high on mildly lifted rovers.

Ok thanks.
I have got no clue yet on link lengths etc, I'm still reading up on it. There's a ton of info here and I want to do my homework first.
So basically it doesn't really matter what you do as long as the angle between top and bottom links is about 40degrees or more right?
The LC80 is pretty wide so that helps. I could even put the lower link mount underneath the frame even though it does hurt ground clearance a bit.

What KC knows, and apparently most here do not, is that the Rover ball is really the only way to do a 4 link on a rover (sometimes called a Y link). Unless you chop the rear off completely like Darkstar did.

The rover frame is too narrow to use two separate hiems at the axle. The triangulation is not enough. Then most who do it lenthen it, further reducing the triangulation. Then most run straight lowers. While it may work for a while, the stress on the uppers doing the locating is extreme. You fully get it, you break, badly.

I had the rover ball when KC did my rear. Then did gymastics to keep it when I lenthened the rear 10in. Still have it now, and will never change it. Using the outers to lower the roll axis angle is a huge improvement though.

Ive never not been a fan of the ball joint, apart from the fact that it makes things so much easier as its already done, it isnt a bad design really. I know some guys over here (Oz) have broken them from "gettin in" but thats not a concern for me. Im pretty sure Strangerover has built some 4 link (2 uppers on diff) on defender and had success, but he didnt use the stock chassis mounts either. I cant see why its not possible to do 4 link if you keep a min angle and build it strong eneough, .....but thats a moot point.

the other thing that may help is MR Auotomotive is making the MD ball joints, both the stock greasable/adjustable and a 1 inch raised version to give more vetrical seperation at axle end. MD originally designed these for their portal kits.

the only problem I see with the ball joint is the binding due to limited angularity and the stock set up which seems to have the ball not at center of movement at ride height......

IMO the ball is strong enough for its job and a better option the people replacing it with a hiem etc

Maybe. It depends on the lenth of the links and the width of the axle. It should be done though, because it allows you to affect anti-squat and roll axis, which can get extremely high on mildly lifted rovers.

funny you should say this....some difference of opinion on page 2-3 of this thread..... looking at the pics of FrankenRover, I would say the rear axle roll axis is quite high, and I believe KC stated the AS at 149%.....I would have thought it to be higher than that :confused: but still seems high....seems to work for Bill and KC though

Serg

Good luck binding the A-arm ball joint. If its positioned properly, it provides far more articulation than you will ever need.

Not sure what not being at center of movement at ride height means.

Most all of the ball joint failures I have seen were the result of not being properly torqued. They can come loose a bit and that causes serious wear and soon to follow "SNAP". I have seen a few that were from a rusted joint.

Good luck binding the A-arm ball joint. If its positioned properly, it provides far more articulation than you will ever need.

Not sure what not being at center of movement at ride height means.

ill try and explain....forgive my poor use of the english langauge.

The ball joint has x amount of movement or degrees of movment. looking at it very basicly lets say front to back and side to side movement. lets assume the suspension when at normal ride height has 50% up travel available and 50% down travel. looking (from the side of the vehicle) at the stock rover and worse on a coil lifted rig the ball is not sitting in the center of its movement range at ride height becasue of the angle of the ends of the A arm.......being that, its going to bind one way before the other.

I believe this would be able to be addressed fairly easily with some custom arms.

PS I just highlighted what you said....:homer:


now for a stupid question. If you were to join the chassis mount ends of the A arms with a cross bar so it was a triangle and not a V would this create more binding?

I agree with what your saying about snapping the Ball joint. But Im pretty sure the guys that did (Ruff) would be up on torquing and service etc.

KC,

how do you feel the ball joint would cope with long down travel or droop like a TT???

Serg

Soooo,
how about an a-frame and ball joint on the front axle? Assume engine location is not a problem :D

Ok, gottcha uninformed. Yes you are right. However most vehicles do not have equal up and down travel. So adjusting the position/orientation of the ball joint allows it to be used where its needed. So, if you don't need a lot of up travel, you set the joint so it is close to max at full compression which will give you maximum down travel from the joint. But, another factor will be how similar or dissimilar the a arm length and the lower links length are. These two things combined, mean you should be able to get plenty of travel from the ball joint and it is no different than using a heim in the same situation.

So, to wrap it all up a bit.

Rover ball joint will limit your articulation but the articulation limit is well beyond what you honestly need for most applications.

Rover ball joint in proper setup can yield unlimited droop or compression if that is your goal.

And the A-arm setup has been used in front end applications and works exceedingly well, but can be complicated to fit.

KC,

how do you feel the ball joint would cope with long down travel or droop like a TT???

Serg

I can't bind it or even get close with 17in of straight travel and more articulation. Anything is possible, but I would not even worry aboutit until you hit the 30in mark. :smokin:

Soooo,
how about an a-frame and ball joint on the front axle? Assume engine location is not a problem :D

I run a Y link in the front of my race car. There is no issue unless you are not running full hydro, which I assume you would if you are building something so cool.

funny you should say this....some difference of opinion on page 2-3 of this thread..... looking at the pics of FrankenRover, I would say the rear axle roll axis is quite high, and I believe KC stated the AS at 149%.....I would have thought it to be higher than that :confused: but still seems high....seems to work for Bill and KC though

Serg

He would be happier at 80-90% I promise. But it is less noticable going slow, and his is a crawler.

And post pics if you can of the broken rover ball joint. The only way I see that happening is an extremely violent roll, that would break a 4 link too, unless loose or rusted like KC said.

I dont have pics, I remember Ruff (Tony) saying they broke something in that area, It may have not been the ball, but torn it out of the diff or its own housing :confused:

I have seen the ball mount torn off the top of the axle in an accident on a discovery.

Why would you need to change the steering?
Because that is putting more side loading on the ball joint?

Because you no longer have a panhard rod to reference your drag link. So, up and down travel will result in the truck steering with no input from the driver. Very annoying problem.

Because you no longer have a panhard rod to reference your drag link. So, up and down travel will result in the truck steering with no input from the driver. Very annoying problem.

That would be why you do full hydro steering..

Cuz it's cool like Buck said...

That would be why you do full hydro steering..

Cuz it's cool like Buck said...

Full hydro or GTFO! :flipoff2:

Full hydro or GTFO! :flipoff2:

BRAH!!!

Just because.

Leave it to you two to derail a thread in a single bound.

__________________
Keith
www.rovertracks.com
Braaaahhh!


Fixed it for ya:flipoff2:

Leave it to you two to derail a thread in a single bound.

I can multi-task. Both bring tech, and derail. :flipoff2:

Truly a talented man you are Buck!!!! Just don't let your wife know you can multitask,that never works out.

Truly a talented man you are Buck!!!! Just don't let your wife know you can multitask,that never works out.

Isn't that how you get her to agree to bringing her sister into bed?

Because you no longer have a panhard rod to reference your drag link. So, up and down travel will result in the truck steering with no input from the driver. Very annoying problem.

Ok this makes sense to me. If you tried to do the Aframe and single point connection at the axle and run a panhard, first time axle cycles, something has to brake.

And full hydro is not legal for a street vehicle?

Starting to think I should just say f-it and sell the coil overs and brackets and just put a set of rear parabolics up front :D

Ok this makes sense to me. If you tried to do the Aframe and single point connection at the axle and run a panhard, first time axle cycles, something has to brake.

And full hydro is not legal for a street vehicle?

Starting to think I should just say f-it and sell the coil overs and brackets and just put a set of rear parabolics up front :D

Full hydro is completely legal in 48 states. There are 2 where it is a grey area, I can't remember which two. It being illegal is a complete Internet myth. And, if set up correctly, it will be better than any LR that came from the factory.

Buck is pretty much right about the hydro. I wouldn't be as bold in my statement as he was, but he is right. In fact, there are a few new production cars that have hydro I believe.

Full hydro is completely legal in 48 states. There are 2 where it is a grey area, I can't remember which two. It being illegal is a complete Internet myth. And, if set up correctly, it will be better than any LR that came from the factory.

what.............are you saying that everything on the interweb isnt true :eek:

does your truck handle better on road at speed than a new gen RR :D

what.............are you saying that everything on the interweb isnt true :eek:

does your truck handle better on road at speed than a new gen RR :D

I don't know, I've never driven one. But probably. And mine looks better too. :D

Full hydro... great something else to researcha dn spend money on ;)

Full hydro... great something else to researcha dn spend money on ;)

You only have to spend money. No research. PSC. Get the Go Fast 10an kit with appropriate feedback orbital, matching pump and single or double end ram. The difference between the two is very small IMO. Buy as a full kit, tell them exactly what you want and you shall recieve!

They will tell you not to run full hydro on the street but it's for cover. It's the only way to go. The rover box is shit, and nothing else fits in there.

Makes sense.
I am running a Scout II box and a GM diesel pump, to run the hydroboost.
I know the box goes in the bin. But any issues with full hydro system working in conjunction with hydroboost? I have the room, would I run dual pumps?

Lookie there....research

http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/PSC-2.5-Double-End-Steering-Cylinder-Kit-p-17018.html looks like it fits the bill.

Makes sense.
I am running a Scout II box and a GM diesel pump, to run the hydroboost.
I know the box goes in the bin. But any issues with full hydro system working in conjunction with hydroboost? I have the room, would I run dual pumps?

Lookie there....research

I'm running a PSC df100 orbital, 2.5x8" double ended ram and a TG pump, it runs both my steering and hydroboost with zero issues. Just make sure your ps res has return fittings for both the ps system and hydro boost. You'll also need a cooler...

running on the street is not a problem and have very little wander

OK, so doing some research on the Rover forum at Pirate4x4 and a lot of folks are saying not to stick full hydro on Rover axles, claim it will rip the knuckles off.

:laughing:

OK, so doing some research on the Rover forum at Pirate4x4 and a lot of folks are saying not to stick full hydro on Rover axles, claim it will rip the knuckles off.

:laughing:

I put toy fzj80 axles under mine...

Uhhh, can you guys see me nodding my head in disappointment.

Full hydro is perfectly suited to rover axles and you will not rip off your knuckle. Just don't turn up your pressure to much and your fine. Full hydro can be setup to apply as much or as little pressure as you need. So as long as you don't over do it, your knuckle will be just as happy as it it stock. Your more likely to tweek tie rods every day than ripping knuckles off.

Uhhh, can you guys see me nodding my head in disappointment.

Full hydro is perfectly suited to rover axles and you will not rip off your knuckle. Just don't turn up your pressure to much and your fine. Full hydro can be setup to apply as much or as little pressure as you need. So as long as you don't over do it, your knuckle will be just as happy as it it stock. Your more likely to tweek tie rods every day than ripping knuckles off.

I don't agree. Turning down the pressure makes the steering perform poorly. And I'm not even sure how you would turn down a good pump.

Just make sure the stroke on the ram is just right and drive knowing that your steering is stronger than your knuckle.

Well, turning down pressure is easy on 99% of the pumps available to us. I would offer to show you how, but I cant really see you needing to lower your pressure. And I am not sure I really meant to lower the pressure over a stock PSI so much as I meant don't bump up the pressure.

My 404 uses stock "canned Ham" saginaw pressure and provides very nice steering pressure and feel. This pressure is acceptable for a rover. But I have bumped up pressure on many builds to the point that you could blow on the wheel and it would steer. This might not be the best option for the smaller components of a rover axle.

The feel of hydro steering comes from basically two things.

One pressure
And Two Flow rate

Both of these are adjustable up or down in a myriad of ways to yield virtually and feel you want and to help reduce stress on components.

Back to the pump, If one were concerned, you could easily test the stock rover box forces with a large spring gauge or something of that sort. Then you could apply the same method of testing to your ned hydro system. Then its just a matter of increasing or decreasing your pressure to get it say 25% better than stock at a minimum. Or a rudimentary math wizz could easily calculate the ram size needed to produce this pressure based on your PS pump pressure. As this would be the only easy way to lower the steering forces with a rover PS pump.

Ok, then on a coil sals would you run the ram on the front side or back side?

which ever floats your boat really. There are reasons to do it both ways, and it depends on how much room you have, as well as if you use a double or single ended ram.

Well, turning down pressure is easy on 99% of the pumps available to us. I would offer to show you how, but I cant really see you needing to lower your pressure. And I am not sure I really meant to lower the pressure over a stock PSI so much as I meant don't bump up the pressure.

My 404 uses stock "canned Ham" saginaw pressure and provides very nice steering pressure and feel. This pressure is acceptable for a rover. But I have bumped up pressure on many builds to the point that you could blow on the wheel and it would steer. This might not be the best option for the smaller components of a rover axle.

The feel of hydro steering comes from basically two things.

One pressure
And Two Flow rate

Both of these are adjustable up or down in a myriad of ways to yield virtually and feel you want and to help reduce stress on components.

Back to the pump, If one were concerned, you could easily test the stock rover box forces with a large spring gauge or something of that sort. Then you could apply the same method of testing to your ned hydro system. Then its just a matter of increasing or decreasing your pressure to get it say 25% better than stock at a minimum. Or a rudimentary math wizz could easily calculate the ram size needed to produce this pressure based on your PS pump pressure. As this would be the only easy way to lower the steering forces with a rover PS pump.

While I don't really disagree you all that much, I have to, this is pirate. :flipoff2:

First, the pressure and flow have to be right for the ram. Most stock pumps can't get to where you need to be to work perfectly. A stock rover pump, well, at least the ones I have worked with, simply won't deal well with using a full hydro ram at speed. Slow wheeling, just about anything will get you by, but 70 on a highway, or dirt, is another story.

Then on to perhaps one of the most important part, the orbital. It's critical. I tried 3 before I found the one that worked for my application. I am in the process again right now.

I guess what I am saying, is for it to work really well, the pump has to be matched to the ram and both have to be matched to the orbital. Running this with that and lowering this to not break that, is not something I would not do.

Really, really good steering is something that you don't realize you don't have, untill you have it. And once you have it, you bitch about everything that doesn't. Trust me. :laughing:

Not sure we really disagree David. For a race car/Truck, there is a bit more to it than throwing something in. I personally don't have much interest in race cars and generally don't have a desire to drive my crawlers down the highway at 70MPH. If I want to go fast with my trucks, I do it with them on a gooseneck and a nice tow rig.

I have designed many Full hydro setups and have worked with Tom the founder of AGR and soon after PSC so I know what you are trying to express. But I am not sure that a custom rig with an A-arm front end, rover axles and full hydro is going to be a race car or drive the highway at 70+ But I could be wrong, it happens like once a year or so.

Not sure we really disagree David. For a race car/Truck, there is a bit more to it than throwing something in. I personally don't have much interest in race cars and generally don't have a desire to drive my crawlers down the highway at 70MPH. If I want to go fast with my trucks, I do it with them on a gooseneck and a nice tow rig.

I have designed many Full hydro setups and have worked with Tom the founder of AGR and soon after PSC so I know what you are trying to express. But I am not sure that a custom rig with an A-arm front end, rover axles and full hydro is going to be a race car or drive the highway at 70+ But I could be wrong, it happens like once a year or so.

I thought aloharover wanted to put this on a road driven rig? At least that's what I was responding too.

I'm lost WTFE. The whole hydro thing came from the front a-arm deal and how you needed hydro to eliminate the steering issues. Maybe I slept through a post or two.

I thought aloharover wanted to put this on a road driven rig? At least that's what I was responding too.

Thanks, yes I performed an unauthorized hijack