If you could do either - cost not an issue - which one would you go with and why?

I would say 60 because of the amount of after market parts that can be thrown on. however if price not an issue go for the Avalanche Engeneering High Mark axles:D :D :D

Lozy:beer:

rockwells are just too big and heavy. i think 60s are overkill most of the time. you see guys running them on 2500 pound rigs with 36s now all the time.

Definately rockwells!

They're cheap, especially compared to a 60. You can get detroit lockers for them, weld them up, up to you. They are virtually indestructable. The components on them are gigantic. They're fairly modular and universal, they're simply incredible.

Another kinda benefit is if you like challenges. They take some real work to get them to fit. I'm building my whole jeep around them including the frame and everything and it still is somewhat challenging in a certain areas. Your not going to see your average wheeler with them, they take a lot of work to get them to work. With my 42's, i'll have about 12" of clearance under the diff, much more if I bother to clearance them. I definately will but maybe not on the maiden voyage...gotta leave something to work on :P

CJ

Not rockwells way to heavy. lighter is better hybred stuff rules

D44 with portals on the ends with 4 wheel steer. Nuff said

Dimitri

A rockwell can't way that much more then a 60, 60's are damn heavy!

I think the rockwell is a better design for HD and clearance. The parts are huge, just look at a 60 universal next to a rockwell :eek:

They may be heavier then a 60 but you get strength and clearnace what more could you want? I agree they would be a bitch to mount in a low vehicle, easy in a monster truck but we don't want those on the trail.

I'd do 60's. Rockwells are old school man. My cousin used them on his Ford back in 1984. :)

I dont think rockwells are any heavier than a 60 when you pull the brakes on, there's most of your weight right there.

Rockwells on a vehicle with tons of suspension travel and ability to run the types of trails we do sure isn't old school :P

CJ

Rockwells, Rockwells, Rockwells - after spending the better part of 9 mths getting them under my rig, i am almost ready to wheel it. I love everything about them, higher pinion than a hi-pinion D60, stronger carrier, pinion brakes kick major ass, and bigger shafts, 17 series U-joints instead of 1480's. Honestly i think a front 60 with chro-mo's and CTM's would be as strong as a rockwell, maybe stronger from what i have seen. BUT - you said cost being no issue, CTM can make 300M 1.75" shafts for the rockwell, so that would be wayyy better than anything for a 60. The only disadvantage i can see is there is no selectable locker for rockwells, but you can get lockout hubs, so it's not really that big of a deal.

P.S. Rockwells would be way cheaper to build in the real world too. $6000 for a HP 60 cut from dynatrac, vs. $3500 for a rockwell with a detroit, cut diff, pinion brake, and 300M shafts...

Originally posted by elf_cruiser
$6000 for a HP 60 cut from dynatrac,

Yeah but who in their right mind would buy one of those?

I whould say Rockwell just cuz of the cool ness and streanth I whould like 3 of them 2 under the truck and 1 on the wall

Rockwells aren't significantly heavier than 60's when you don't have the drum brakes on them.(ie. running a pinion brake). Anyway, it's unsprung weight, what's a 100lb difference going to affect, really? Come stock with 6:72 gears, are VERY universal (need the diff on the other side? no prob. swap the knuckes, flip the carrier. done. rear steer? no prob. flip the carrier. all lined up. etc.) You can reverse the hubs to get the overall axle narrower cheaply, they are perfect for hydraulic steering setups, perfect for rear steer (and if you do set up rear steer, same exact axle front and rear! less spare parts.) I know price wasn't part of the original equation, but best of all, they are CHEAP compared to 60's and the mods that are necessary can be done in the garage instead of at a professional's shop. Oh yeah, much less extreme driveline angles. Especially nice on the short wheel base rigs with lots of lift. Do I sound biased? :D I researched them a lot before I made my choice, and I ordered two fronts from Daniel at USA6X6.com last week. They should ship out next week sometime. I will be fair, though. Here are some negatives as I see them: No e-brake or wheel based braking system wierds me out a little. I think I may run two separate master cylinders for the two separate pinion brakes for a little added peace of mind. No selectable locker, although it's almost a no-brainer to run hydraulic steering on these things, in which case you may as well just weld them up. 6:72 gear ratio is all that is available, although that's pretty sweet if you ask me. No aftermarket axles, yet. With the u-joints being as massive as they are, the axles are the weak link from what I read and hear. However, that's one massive weak link! I think I will leave spares in my tow rig just in case. I think they're a great value, and I expect to see more of them on the trail in the future. I will say this, however: If I was building a rig to compete in, I wouldn't use them. I think if money was no object, a hp 60 narrowed would be lighter and more nimble dancing around the flags.

i just sold some killer 60 stuff in the last year and bought rockwells. 1st thing is gears, the rockwells already have it, the 60s don''t so there is a major cost saving. i just bought a detroit for 375.00 much cheaper than a 60. the housings are easy to modify, three different widths with out cutting anything, just swapping spindles around. can be clearanced for some killer ground clearance. high pinion so drive lines will be easy and cheap. but i would never think of putting them on anything with less than 42" tires and atleast 110" wheelbase. to me there is no choice. rockwells

Some interesting replies so far - good comments alla round :cool2:

Well, this is from the perspective of a mud guy, so take that for what it's worth:

44 front, SF60 rear - that is the ABSOLUTE beefiest combo I'd ever consider. If for some strange reason I ever wanted to run 44" tires, then 60/70 or 60/60. But, I've never seen anyone with Rockwells & DOT tires do worth a schit in the slop.

TEX

Well you said cost was not an issue.
Then here is the answer: http://www.tibus-offroad.com/html/body_axles.html
Good luck.
And post picks after you get them installed.

Originally posted by Daniel
54 X 16 X20 and street legal... these do OK in mud?
http://usa6x6.com/Images/mil_1.jpg

Ok Daniel - what is your price on those bad boy tires?

Originally posted by Daniel
54 X 16 X20 and street legal... these do OK in mud?
http://usa6x6.com/Images/mil_1.jpg

Yeah, wouldn't be too bad. Still, the few guys we've seen on oversized DOT's & big, heavy trucks end up getting stuck short of where the guy in the CJ with 40's (or even 38.5's) goes most of the time.

Biggest problem though is that the mud bog classes that allow DOT tires over 44" also allow tractor tires (in some cases worse, paddles and/or cuts are allowed). And that's a whole new can of worms to deal with ;)

TEX

Originally posted by Underdog
Well you said cost was not an issue.
Then here is the answer: http://www.tibus-offroad.com/html/body_axles.html
Good luck.
And post picks after you get them installed.


JUNK....the only mog axle i have ever seen in the rocks exploded the portal housing.

Originally posted by Daniel
150 bucks BTW aint no weenie 60 gonna hold em either:)



Why do you think I am asking? :D:D:D


Are they used tires?

Originally posted by Daniel
Dana 60 front weight 510

Rockwell front pinion brake weight 660

One's a pig, the other's a fat pig :D

TEX

It depends on what you want to build. If you go with the rockwells you will probably be running huge tires and that means lots of weight.... which leads to the T-case shaft issue...
We all know that a guy with huge tires on huge axles is not gonna want to winch, and people are gonna expect something special whenever you take that monster out, so where does it end ?
Rockwell t-case w/ a allison tranny ?


I'm going to stick with the 60s for now and see how they do with 39.5/38x11.5s ...If they start breaking I just might retreat on the tire size.

How do you clear the oil pan without jacking it to the sky?

Originally posted by Daniel
Move the axle foreward and have a better driveline angle... try bumpstops too

I sent you an e-mail(using the one on your site).....

Let me see, 8 splines are technologically superior to 35 or 40 right??!:flipoff2: 44, 60/70, mog (http://www.tibus-offroad.com/axle_shafts.xxl.jpg) Don't get me wrong that compares to mogs, and rockwells have an even more far superior 16 splines!:D

if i have a 60 spline 1" diameter axle and a 30 spline 1.5" axle. does that make the 1" axle stronger. i don't think so.

Originally posted by TEX


One's a pig, the other's a fat pig :D

TEX


:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

I have seen more people (Scott and Stacy) break more rockwell axles than they did 60 Stubs. Brutus is has a small block and he still breaks them. Run behind those guys on the trail and all you smell is the Pinion brake smoking.

in those pics the stub on the rockwell looks about the same size as the inner shaft on the d60. it actually looks smaller but that may be the picture. first thing that goes on the d60 is the stub shaft especially a stock stub the u jiont usually isnt an issue. im guessing a d60 with a 35 spline stub is about the same strength prolly stronger than the rockwell.

I just like giving Pootus and Stacy shiat. Dollar for dollar and building a trail only rig I would go with a RW.

GO with the Rockwells. I am actually going to be running both set ups very soon. I'm putting the CJ back together using D60/D70 and a custom hybred using Rockwells. If I had thougt about it I would have bought 4 RWs instead of the 2, but wanted to be able to drive the CJ on the streets occasionally.

For all around strengh and simplicity the Rockwells make it very easy. You can swap the axle shaft, if you break a Rockwell a lot easier than a D60. Ditch the brakes and go pinion. I picked up my 2 front RWs for $800 for the pair. Lincoln lock 'em and run some hydro steering and you won't have any problems turning.

Get some big ass meats from Daniel, he's got the 49s and the 53s(I think those were the sizes). I'll be ordering a set from him the next couple of weeks.


John

i still like d60's, 70's, 14bolts, and sterling 10.25's and 10.5's. :D

I'm sorry....did u say "cost is not a concern"..(or words to that effect)

Ya shouldna oughta said that.....:D

Coz if that is true - then the answer is 2" Hy Tuff 40 spline d60 with spool, as made by Strange Engineering..and prolly others.

Sure - they make it for the rear - but you can have them or some other specialty shop make it for the front too.

fawk it, you said price wasn;t an issue - why not some totally custom 2.5" 50 spline titanium axles??

Seriously....I like the 60 for it's relatively light weight, small size, disc brakes at the wheel (stopping is really important to me), dime a dozen parts availability and HUGE range of build options.

You can do stock, or Chrome-moly shafts, SF, FF. any kind of gears, any kind of TAD, the skys the limit up to the 40 spline 2 inchers. You can even do what us cool kids are doing and sticj with relatively high stock gears for size and availability, and go with 3 speed T-case or dual transmissions.

With a Rockwell...it seems ok if you want exactly what it is...cool. But if your needs or style or wants change...you're stuck with it, no flexability.

I don't want to start an argument on the splines but there are a ton of different ways to make an axle shaft. Just because a 60 has more splines than the rockwell does not mean the splines are weaker, it's a surface area thing.

Notice on the 60's that the splines are usually about the same diameter as the shaft, but they have a lot more splines for more surface area. Well, on the rockwells the splines have a bigger outer diameter and the shaft itself is smaller. This ensures that the rockwell shaft will break before the splines. I'd be willing to bet that the guys breaking the rockwell shafts aren't breaking them at the splines. So it isn't less strong than the 60 stuff by design, it's less strong by the material.

You'll see people like Avalanche boast about how they run 1.75" non tapered shafts on their rockwell centers and custom axles. This really isn't something to get overly excited about, in fact it almost could be considered a flaw. This eliminates the splines having a bigger diameter and now you've made it so that the splines are probably gonna break first, not exactly what I want to happen. I'm trying to get some custom chromoly rockwell shafts made for my stuff....once you've got chromo shafts I think the rockwells are gonna be just about indestructable. Does anyone have a source who can make shafts like this? Jack @ CTM was the only person interested but he can't do it for a long while....

As far as the rockwell hitting the oil pan...on my Jeep the diff is going to be getting into the crankshaft pulley. It's way forward of the oilpan. The areas of interference in order of closeness 1) Diff to oil pan 2) Driveshaft to bellhousing(since it is so high up) 3) Pinion disc to radiator

I'm bothered by the fact that people are having their pinion discs get really hot. Think about it, your giving your brakes roughly a 7x multiplication. There should be a whole lot less force needed to stop the axle with that one caliper and the reduction than two calipers at the wheels. What I think might be happening is people are generally using smaller components. I'm shooting for 1/2ton chevy stuff, I don't think that will get over worked. But also, per haps they are just running way too much pressure to the caliper. Your not going to need the same amount of pressure as if you are running brakes the wheels. I'm going to put proportioning valves in the lines going to both front and rear so I can turn down the pressure...you can only stop a Jeep on 40-44" tires so quickly...

CJ

is that a 35 spline d60 stub? i was saying in that pic the d60 inner shaft looks like about the same width as the rockwell stub. and isnt the 35 spline stub the same thickness as the inner 35 spline shaft?

ROCKWELLS!!!

You cant beat them for the cost and the ease of doing 4 wheel steering. Aftermarket axles will catch up and when it does Rockwells will rule even more. Try buying a fully built pair of dana 60"s fully built for around $4500!

A rockwell rear weighs the same as a 14 bolt rear and has about 2.5" more ground clearance when cut. How many of ya'll have those boat anchors!

The only thing that I need is more time because everyone else is keeping me too busy to build my own stuff.

Todd

Originally posted by yjtj
is that a 35 spline d60 stub? i was saying in that pic the d60 inner shaft looks like about the same width as the rockwell stub. and isnt the 35 spline stub the same thickness as the inner 35 spline shaft?


Man if you think that a 60 shaft is the same thickness as a rockwell :rolleyes: you are in need of some serious glasses..Honestly I own a few 60 fronts that I have collected over the years and I own a set of rockwells.I wouldn't get ride of either.the 60fronts or the rockwells.If cost was no object(like that is a reality) then a 60f with Jacks joints, 300m axleshafts, and chrome moly tubes, and some special alloy made ring and pinion gears , drive flanges and probably stronger knuckles would be the best....but, at what cost..If cost is a factor the rockwell wins hands down since they are 800 a pair or less depending on where you look and parts are every bit as plentiful as 60 parts and most definately cheaper ....some prices drive flange(warn) for 60 170-200 a pair(roughly) for a rockwell 23 dollars each.. bearing hub ...dana 60 438$ ...for rockwell 56 dollars..... :D

hmm must be i cant tell the .125 from that shitty picture :flipoff2:

so what do scott and stacy and brutus have to say about this. be cool if we could do a strength comparo between the two like they were talking about doing to the d44 and d60. i have a project cj in the future and i have been torn between the 2. honestly i think price is about equal by the time you do brakes yokes and lockers and steering on the 2.5 verses doing gears, if you have to and the simple steering on the d60. the d60s will prolly be more but hey whats 1000 bucks when yah have as much money in your rig as you do. in the 4x world a 1000 is pennies unfortunately, no im not rich and yes i do my own work, but if you can afford and atlas you can afford and exta 1k. you can get deals on both if you look hard enuff. i can get a pair of 2.5s for about 1000 a few miles from my house. i just picked up a hpd60 front and a ffd60 rear with 4.10s out of a 79 f350 for $380, but i have been looking a long time and it was just stupid luck i found them. i almost shit myself when i got them for that much.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yjtj
[B]hmm must be i cant tell the .125 from that shitty picture :flipoff2:

damn...I could see differnce standing 20 feet away from the computer screen..:flipoff2

your gonna tell me in this pic you see a big diff between the d60 inner and the 2.5 stub ?

mmmm... yea.:flipoff2: .. just kidding .....actually the other pictures daniel posted are better pictures one of which is one I posted comparing the rockwell to a 70 outer and 44 outer.But, yes, I can see plenty of difference particulary when you start comparing smallest point to smallest point..By the way, 800 a pair or less for rockwells(seen them for 500 hundred ), 100 bucks to fab up the pinion brakes front and rear,what 35cents a welding rod to lock up front and rear( or 360 each for a detroit), and your hydro steering which cost me roughly 200 bucks( valve,cylinder and tie rod) so that is a total of 1100 dollars plus lets say a couple of dollars of welding rods...60 = 800-1000 used....probably change gears so that is 300 bucks for ring and pinion and carrier if you are have to swicth carriers which is probably likley..add another 40-60 bucks if you don't have an install kit....tack on more if you have to have someone set them up for you....if you lucked out and got an older 60 front then you get those crappy taper down inner axles which you will need to replace along with the outers to go to 35 spline ( so at my cost new from spicer the inner short cost 55 dollars, long is 66 dollars, stubs are 55 each and u-joints are 41-plus shipping on a couple of those items and then 35 spline drive flanges tack on another 175 dollars)so that is another 478 dollars (which most people can't buy the inners that cheap)...so 60 equals 1638 without addressing lockers (or you could weld to save money) and hydro steering (once again you could save some pennies by using paleolithic caveman power non steer)..so adding that is another 200 for a valve and cylinder..new total 1838...need a good tie rod and if you can't make your own your probably looking at between 60- 100 bucks or possibly more dependig on where you live...So our grand total for a basic 60 front without a locker and OEM parts is about 1900 bucks and this is using the 800 base cost or with a detroit about 2400 dollars...that 800 a pair for rockwells is looking pretty good from my standpoint:D In all fairness if you have a built 60 I wouldn't recommend tossing it just for a rockwell.But, if you are starting from scratch then the ROCKWELLS are the way to go.. :D

Originally posted by CJ Lagos


I'm bothered by the fact that people are having their pinion discs get really hot. Think about it, your giving your brakes roughly a 7x multiplication. There should be a whole lot less force needed to stop the axle with that one caliper and the reduction than two calipers at the wheels. What I think might be happening is people are generally using smaller components. I'm shooting for 1/2ton chevy stuff, I don't think that will get over worked.

CJ

I've asked how overheating could NOT be a problem on a few posts, and this is the first one I've seen where someone actually said something about it. Yes, the brakes will have plenty of power due to the gear reduction, but you still have to dissipate the same amount of energy. You're trying to stop the same or more weight (as the rig w/one ton axles) with 1/4 the brake area. I don't see how they could keep from overheating.

Pete

Plus the fawkin rotor is spinning 7x as fast :eek:

Originally posted by KYODER
I just like giving Pootus and Stacy shiat. Dollar for dollar and building a trail only rig I would go with a RW.
ok:flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Oh by the way. I took the picture of the 60 shaft lined next to the rockwell shafts. The 60 stub in that picture is a 35spline stub, so it must be the angle that makes it look tiny.

ROCKWELL wins again :P

CJ

COMPARED TO A 60 ROCKWELLS ARE JUNK JUNK JUNK and a maj. waste of money and time:flipoff2: ask brutus why his shit broke at cal rocs and a dozen d 44s didnt in the same spot hehehe :flipoff2: oh thats right EVERYTHING BREAKS :nuke:

Definately use Rockwells if you are building a duece and a half. :flipoff2:

Originally posted by Paul Gagnon
Definately use Rockwells if you are building a duece and a half. :flipoff2:

Ha, I remember a quote very similar to this a few years ago when 60's were fairly uncommon in trail rigs. Someone was like, definately use one in a fullsize but not in a trail jeep.

Apparently 60's have really changed. The facts I was always told years ago were that they are really heavy, too big, usually too wide and they required such big tires to make them justifyable that they don't make sense to run...that argument sounds familiar...funny how times change? :flipoff2:

Go USA :usa:

CJ

Originally posted by CJ Lagos
Ha, I remember a quote very similar to this a few years ago when 60's were fairly uncommon in trail rigs. Someone was like, definately use one in a fullsize but not in a trail jeep.

LOL... very true. Thing is that I am not going to be using 60's on my next project because they are overkill for what I need. Rockwells for the sake of Rockwells is just plain silly, same with 60's for the sake of 60's. Build what you need to get the job done. Overkill is heavy and costs more. :idea:

I dunno, jeep guys still say dumb things all the time.
seems the same to me

Originally posted by mj
I dunno, jeep guys still say dumb things all the time.
seems the same to me

Jeep guy? Me? Damn!:eek:I'd better get to the Emergency room this infection is worse than I thought :eek::eek::eek:... LMAO :cow::cow::cow:

Originally posted by Paul Gagnon


LOL... very true. Thing is that I am not going to be using 60's on my next project because they are overkill for what I need. Rockwells for the sake of Rockwells is just plain silly, same with 60's for the sake of 60's. Build what you need to get the job done. Overkill is heavy and costs more. :idea:

I totally agree with this. I feel that I have tested the limits of what is available for a toyota. I broke the Warn birfield eliminator kit three times. I broke a toyota t-case input shaft. My rig is heavy, and I drive with the "gas on" method often. I needed to upgrade, and I can't see how a 60 is cost effective for what I want to do, and what I want it to stand up to.

COMEAWN!:D I'm gonna take lines on the box this year that haven't even been invented yet!

Originally posted by CJ Lagos


Ha, I remember a quote very similar to this a few years ago when 60's were fairly uncommon in trail rigs. Someone was like, definately use one in a fullsize but not in a trail jeep.

Apparently 60's have really changed. The facts I was always told years ago were that they are really heavy, too big, usually too wide and they required such big tires to make them justifyable that they don't make sense to run...that argument sounds familiar...funny how times change? :flipoff2:

Go USA :usa:

CJ

Funny :D I was just thinking the same thing. How 60's and 14 bolts were "too big and heavy" for a trail truck.
But what do I know, I'm still "stuck" with D44's.:flipoff2:
-Jeremy

Depends on what you are building. A toyota, jeep, samari or a buggy 60s would be fine.
Any thing bigger like a fullsize and your going to run any thing bigger than 40s and use it hard go with the big boys.
:usa:

Are pinion brakes road legal?

Daniel, can you get chains for those huge tires? How much? It's been nothing but ice in the woods around here for the last 3 weeks.

If money was no issue I would go with U900 (same as 406) axles, they are BEEFY, I was just looking at some today, the shafts are 41mm or 1 5/8" they have a huge CV joint, they come in narrow widths (drum brake version 66" wide) Air lockers front and rear. The knuckles are big, they steer sharp, they don't weigh a ton, they have usable gear ratio's (4.8 to 6.?) and they have a portal drop and gear reduction. These axles are stronger then rockwells in my opinion, it uses technology to it's advantage with the portal unit taking off stress from the ring and pinion and axle shafts. This makes the axle stronger without adding huge weight to the center section.
For 4500US for two fronts, with pinions converted, it is a viable option.
-Don

Originally posted by KYODER
I have seen more people (Scott and Stacy) break more rockwell axles than they did 60 Stubs. Brutus is has a small block and he still breaks them. Run behind those guys on the trail and all you smell is the Pinion brake smoking.
:rainbow: I broke two axles in my 60 and Stacey broke four axles in his 60 front.:flipoff2: If you really want to impress me come over and do the backyard with 48's on those 60's:D :D You've never been able to follow me on the trail since I got my rockwells to smell my pinion brakes..Maybe the smell you smelled was your winch smoking as you were being winched through the little sluice....:smokin: :smokin:

So when a Rockwell shaft breaks-is it usually the outter stub shaft that goes? Can others make replacement (Better) shafts for these axles? If someone can upgrade the shafts, live with 300 extra pounds compared to D60's,learn to drive with full hydraulic steering-this would be the way to go. Steve

Originally posted by brutus

:rainbow: I broke two axles in my 60 and Stacey broke four axles in his 60 front.:flipoff2: If you really want to impress me come over and do the backyard with 48's on those 60's:D :D You've never been able to follow me on the trail since I got my rockwells to smell my pinion brakes..Maybe the smell you smelled was your winch smoking as you were being winched through the little sluice....:smokin: :smokin:




wow
more than 2 word's
and I can actually understand it

Scott you been going to school?
hooked on phonics?
I guess it work's!

Want another lesson!!

Listen real good!!
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if you feel you are better driver than Kevin you are sadly mistaken!!!!!!!!! KEY WORD (M I S T A K E N) look it up!


I remember Pootus not even Trying that day
in little sluice
poor Detroit locker blew up


ha

Adam,

were not really getting anything good out of this post cause the guys with rockwells are saying rockwells and the guys with d60s are saying d60s. obviously they both break and no one is gonna admit to swapping in inferior axles weather it be the d60s or the rockwells.

so how do I get a front pinion break on a rockwell under a YJ??

anyone got a idea
II would run rockwells if I could figure this out
one break does not cut it for me

anyone have measurements for me

what does a rockwell measure from wheel center to top of diff??

Originally posted by Adam Ant





wow
more than 2 word's
and I can actually understand it

Scott you been going to school?
hooked on phonics?
I guess it work's!

Want another lesson!!

Listen real good!!
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if you feel you are better driver than Kevin you are sadly mistaken!!!!!!!!! KEY WORD (M I S T A K E N) look it up!


I remember Pootus not even Trying that day
in little sluice
poor Detroit locker blew up


ha

Adam,
never said I was a better driver than kevin
but if you want to talk shittttt you did not make it through the little sluice
:eek: :eek:

Both Rockwells and 60's are fine strength-wise, when built correctly. Both have a shitty version, and both have a well-built version. 60% of your vehicle's ability lies in your brain. If you are breaking either one of these axles, you may be lacking in that area. it's called rock CRAWLING!!!!

I would not use an D60 or an Rockwell I would use an Portal axle from TOR !
www.killeraxles.com
Those axles are strong and they have lot more ground clerance !
Fits also better than a Rockwell !:rolleyes:

In Tellico some of the boys have started going a little faster (very fast) between the tough spots, kinda like a rock race...It's way fun.

One of the first things I noticed when I first started doing it was how important it is to have a machine that handles well at speed. My pos at that time was real soft and leaned badly in the curves, and the brakes were kinda iffy. It's rather spooky when you are flying blindly around mountain curves with drop-offs on one side and sheer rock faces on the other.
But other than the navagatrix's screaming, I totally enjoy it, and I updated my rig to make it safer and better handling...less weight, better weight distribution, firm ride and good shocks.
Maybe it's not real high on the common sense scale, but it's fun.

How much is a rockwell that is shaved hubs fliped to be about the same as a 60, brakes and locker ?

I am in the market for new axels and they seem like the way to go.

Thanks

I would not use an D60 or an Rockwell I would use an Portal axle from TOR ! www.killeraxles.com
For these prices, I might just hire dwarves to carry me around on a hammock, suspended between 4 quads! :eek:

From the website:
* Price: fob New York
* Front-axle USD 5.300,--
* Rear-axle USD 4.700,--
* Rear-steering axle USD 5.700,--

They make Dynatrac look cheap, and Dynatrac delivers brand-spankin' new parts, instead of reman, which is what these TOR parts appear to be.

Fits also better than a Rockwell !:rolleyes:
I think you mean fits different than a rockwell... how you gonna fit a pinion this long in a short truck?
http://www.killeraxles.com/Axle_Parts_034.xxl.jpg

Cool axles, sure, but no thanks, not at that price. I'd have to break damn near 200 Birfields before that looked good! :p :flipoff2: :p:

Randii

GOOD












PRICES:smokin: :smokin: :smokin:

I've seen Rockwells locally for $900 for a pair of front & rear axles, $375 each gets you lockers, disk brakes can be done for under $400 easy (With good parts too).

Add in steering, wheels, etc.... looks like you could be set up for under $2500 for a pair....

Originally posted by DRM
I've seen Rockwells locally for $900 for a pair of front & rear axles, $375 each gets you lockers, disk brakes can be done for under $400 easy (With good parts too).

Add in steering, wheels, etc.... looks like you could be set up for under $2500 for a pair....



COOL I might go that route but a guy sent me a e-mail said he would sell me a set ready to go for $5000 and I think that is really HIGH

Originally posted by dirtrod
In Tellico some of the boys have started going a little faster (very fast) between the tough spots, kinda like a rock race...It's way fun.

One of the first things I noticed when I first started doing it was how important it is to have a machine that handles well at speed. My pos at that time was real soft and leaned badly in the curves, and the brakes were kinda iffy. It's rather spooky when you are flying blindly around mountain curves with drop-offs on one side and sheer rock faces on the other.
But other than the navagatrix's screaming, I totally enjoy it, and I updated my rig to make it safer and better handling...less weight, better weight distribution, firm ride and good shocks.
Maybe it's not real high on the common sense scale, but it's fun.

Yeah that sounds real fawking brilliant:rolleyes:
Now I've got to worry about some guy come flying around a blind corner at me

Originally posted by Daniel


About 7 inches also if you put the brake caliper on the side its that much lower... http://usa6x6.com/Conversions/Images/theshop/front_brakes.jpg

Unless that is a 5 inch rotor, I don't see how from the wheel center to the top of diff you got 7".
It looks like the diff is just an inch or 2 shorter than the rotor and I suspect the rotor is atleast like 10"
Maybe I'm not seeing the pic correctly.

So how narrow do the axles come? What diameter are the splines?

The "Killer Axles" look exactly like a Unimog portal to me, all the way down to the axle shafts. I don't know what they are talking about when they write they put there own shaft in, because the center section is all mog and the shafts look like it too. They are charging a lot for those axles when you can pick up a pair of factory seconds for less than $2K, granted they have drum brakes, but I don't think the $5K an axle is worth the price of disc brakes.

Anyone who has taken a portal apart will tell you it's no easy job. It is easier and usually cheaper to repace the portal and the shaft as one unit. Scott Ingham sells them for $300-350 for the complete unit.

The Rockwell shafts are bigger in diameter than the mog shafts.

John

What type of side gears does Avalanche use when they advertise 40 spline axles in their Titan?

Originally posted by KYODER
What type of side gears does Avalanche use when they advertise 40 spline axles in their Titan?

they broach a 1.71 40 spline hole in the stock side gear is my guess. ;)

It's amazing, so many people are quoting huge prices for these axles and thinking it's a deal. For $5000 a D60 for $4700 a portal axle, for $4500 a Rockwell. :rolleyes: I mean jesus what is wrong with you? You could build an entire rig quite easily for teh cost of a pair of these axles, most likely for the cost of one. If I had that kind of money to throw away I'd keep my current axles and go on a trip to Greece or something. Throwing money at your truck doesn't make it a great wheeler or even a good looking one. I'll stick to junk yard axles. I've got better things to do with my money than use it to puff up my ego.

I've got better things to do with my money than use it to puff up my ego.
But doooood, it is stylish! :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

People pay perfectly good dollars to stuff silicon into body parts for looks, why not to the same for a pair of big old axles?

Randii

Hi Paul,

We're asking $6500US for a pair of Mog diff's, pinion conversions, and disk brake conversions (8 lug). Yes, that is a lot of $. But is it a deal? For some people, who want that little bit more, yes. And can you build a whole truck for that price? Yes. But not with those axles, even if you did it yourself. Diff's like these, or any custom diff's cost money to build. Parts cost $, labour cost $.

And, really, have you added up the costs into your axles? The D44 axles that were under my Comanche were over $4kUS, and I did the labour myself (what I could). If I even put $10/hr on my labour... And those axles were just regular D44's, locked, disk brakes F&R, and modified for the suspension.

--Rob

Originally posted by Paul Gagnon
It's amazing, so many people are quoting huge prices for these axles and thinking it's a deal. For $5000 a D60 for $4700 a portal axle, for $4500 a Rockwell. :rolleyes: I mean jesus what is wrong with you? You could build an entire rig quite easily for teh cost of a pair of these axles, most likely for the cost of one. If I had that kind of money to throw away I'd keep my current axles and go on a trip to Greece or something. Throwing money at your truck doesn't make it a great wheeler or even a good looking one. I'll stick to junk yard axles. I've got better things to do with my money than use it to puff up my ego.

If you want to know about Greece then buy a book. Bet they even have a web site. I spend tooooo muuuuch money on my rig, but its better than a trip somewhere that will only last a week or two.

Yeah, axle prices can be deceiving...

$250 - Complete front axle
$650 - custom high steering
$140 - front wheel spacers
$500 - Detroit locker
$150 - Vented disk brake conversion
$250 - gears & install kit
$125 - complete rebuild kit for axle (seals, bearings, gaskets)
----------
$2065



That is over $2000 to build.....





















A plain old Toyota front axle....








Labor NOT included.

Rob here is what I have into my axles, including labour:

Front C$2300 or US$1448 includes ARB Airlocker
Even if you add in the cost of new spindles for the front($356 each :eek: but I consider that a maintenance item) that is still just C$3012 or US$1896

Rear: C$2025 or US$1275 includes ARB Airlocker

Add in cost of ARB compressor C$425 and I am still a way ahead compared to just buying ONE of those axles for US$5000

The deals are out there.

Hi Paul,

$1895 + $1275 = $3170US. You done did good! I don't think it's reasonable to include the cost of the compressor.

Now, let's look at a custom axle. In addition to your costs, you have the price of a housing (castings, tubes, and building it), knuckles, spindles, rotors, calipers, caliper mounts, studs, etc. If you start from used cores, some of this will be pretty cheap. If it's a completely new diff, then it won't be. And rotors and studs are just plain expensive. Will it double the price? In some cases, I guess it does.

--Rob

paul you have more money in your axles than i do my whole rig. and that is with it locked up on a new set of 38.5 x14.5 sxs on bead locks.
my next rig will have rockwells big block auto and a set of 48s and will still be cheaper than your axles.
it all comes down to what some one is willing to pay, and how tuff of trails they really want to run. to me 5k for a axle is crazy, but some others with more money than time its a deal.
to each his own.

Originally posted by Daniel
The best rockwell deals are right here in the for sale section I have never seen them so cheap as here
and Paul My axles are twice what your axles are for the same money... Still a rip off...?

Daniel don't get all defensive now. I wasn't saying you were trying to rip people off. You quoted a lowball price for an unmodified axle that would take major work to get it to fit in my truck. What use do I have for a 70" wide axle when my whole truck is currently 72" wide at the outside of the tires. Tell me that you can sell me a complete pair of Rockwells that will fit my truck for less than I can build an 8.8" or a Dana 60 for that matter and maybe we'll talk. Quoting a low price for a basic surplus axle with nothing done to it does not impress me.

Originally posted by Paul Gagnon


Daniel don't get all defensive now. I wasn't saying you were trying to rip people off. You quoted a lowball price for an unmodified axle that would take major work to get it to fit in my truck. What use do I have for a 70" wide axle when my whole truck is currently 72" wide at the outside of the tires. Tell me that you can sell me a complete pair of Rockwells that will fit my truck for less than I can build an 8.8" or a Dana 60 for that matter and maybe we'll talk. Quoting a low price for a basic surplus axle with nothing done to it does not impress me.


Paul, he was not being defensive at all.

As far as your comparison - easy.

Rockwells or 60's - the cost to fit them under any vehicle is the same IMHO. I just don;t see any difference in cost there.

Rockwells - place in KY sells them for $900 for a pair.
60's - most of the time, a complete front 60 alone is gonna cost you $900 or more.

Rockwells - Detroit lockers are under $400 each.
60's - Detroit lockers are over $500 each.

Rockwells - Disk pinion brakes can be done for under $400
60's - just adding disks to a rear 60 will cost you close to $400 for new parts (and that is just the rear - assuming the front are all in new condition)

Rockwells - stock 6.17 gears
60's - if you are lucky you can find get some stock 4.10's or 4.56's - otherwise, there goes another $600 (plus labor) to get some 5.13's or other similary low ratio.


So, what I see so far is:
-you can get a pair of Rockwells for what one 60 costs
-front & rear Detroits are $200 cheaper for F&R axle sets
-disk brake prices are about a wash
-Rockwells come with low gears, saves $$$


So, REALISTICALLY (As in: I have already confirmed I can get these prices on these items, and they are REPEATABLE by you or anoyone else - no special "one time deals")

pair of Rockwells - $900
pair of detroits - $800
disk brakes - $400 (lots of options here, so hard to give a price)


Looks like I could have a pair of locked and geared disk brake'd Rockwells ready to go in my truck for $2300.


Comparatively, assuming a normal front 60 price of $900 (some pay less, most pay more), new gears for $300, Detroit for $500 - that front 60 alone is gonna cost me 1700....

So to match the price of the Rockwells, you gotta get a 5.13 geared, Detroit locked, and rear disk brake'd Dana 60 for under $500 to match the price of the Rockwell... and I wanna see you pull that off ;)


But hey - Rockwells aren't for everyone... I have considered going Rockwell, but I already have $1500 tied up in a front 60, rear gears and install kit, and a new ARB locker and it would be a pain to sell it all and go buy Rockwells :p

Funny how DRM wanted to know what we thought if cost was not an issue, and now it's all come down to money...

By the way, i paid $225 for my Rockwells w/ open diffs, and ball-joint front shafts, plus $200 new seals and gaskets for outers.

now, there were other expenses in order to make them work in my rig, but that doesn't really count because i would have had those expenses with 60's too.

SO - money being an issue, i would say definitely rockwells, 60's can't even compare $$$-wise.

And as for the Mog phenomena, i think they are wayyyy too expensive, and would be even harder to get under my rig than the rockwells were. BUT, if you were starting with tube, and could build your chassis around the axles, then they may be a good possibilty.

laters-

I decided after a lot of work that putting the mog axle under the CJ was becoming a royal pain in the ass. Decided to go with the easier solution and use a D60/D70. I have a pair of rockwells laying around as well so, I'll be putting them in something else later on.

Problems I encountered using the mog axles in short wheel based vehicles--the transfer case needs to be rotated almost straight down to clear the oil pan and everything else. With the engine(258) I was planning on using, I was running into exhaust issues as well. Brakes-- wanted to have some beadlocks, but there is no economical solution to this, either 1) run the 20" rims, (which allow you to run some truely big meats) or 2) grind the drum and backing plate down and run 16.5" rims-- either change the bolt pattern/weld in new centers or order some custom rims, 3) pay up and get the product that some else spent a lot of time developing and making sure it worked.
Granted all of the problems I had were correctable with time and money, but I needed to get it back together asap and decided to go with something a little easier.

But as we all know, everyone has there own tastes and budgets to work with.


John

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DRM
[B]


Rockwells - stock 6.17 gears

David, i can't believe my eyes but you quoted the gear ratio wrong:eek: ...6:17...I think you meant 6:72:D I guess it happens on occassions huh?

.By the way, 800 a pair or less for rockwells(seen them for 500 hundred ), 100 bucks to fab up the pinion brakes front and rear,what 35cents a welding rod to lock up front and rear( or 360 each for a detroit), and your hydro steering which cost me roughly 200 bucks( valve,cylinder and tie rod) so that is a total of 1100 dollars plus lets say a couple of dollars of welding rods...60 = 800-1000 used....probably change gears so that is 300 bucks for ring and pinion and carrier if you are have to swicth carriers which is probably likley..add another 40-60 bucks if you don't have an install kit....tack on more if you have to have someone set them up for you....if you lucked out and got an older 60 front then you get those crappy taper down inner axles which you will need to replace along with the outers to go to 35 spline ( so at my cost new from spicer the inner short cost 55 dollars, long is 66 dollars, stubs are 55 each and u-joints are 41-plus shipping on a couple of those items and then 35 spline drive flanges tack on another 175 dollars)so that is another 478 dollars (which most people can't buy the inners that cheap)...so 60 equals 1638 without addressing lockers (or you could weld to save money) and hydro steering (once again you could save some pennies by using paleolithic caveman power non steer)..so adding that is another 200 for a valve and cylinder..new total 1838...need a good tie rod and if you can't make your own your probably looking at between 60- 100 bucks or possibly more dependig on where you live...So our grand total for a basic 60 front without a locker and OEM parts is about 1900 bucks and this is using the 800 base cost or with a detroit about 2400 dollars...that 800 a pair for rockwells is looking pretty good from my standpoint:D In all fairness if you have a built 60 I wouldn't recommend tossing it just for a rockwell.But, if you are starting from scratch then the ROCKWELLS are the way to go.. :D [/B][/QUOTE]



I have to agree with david(dammit I hate that) that in terms of cost to build this is one area were the rockwells beat the 60's hands down(refer to my previous thread quoted above). ...2400 for a built 60 f or 800 for a pair of rockwells, plus 120 bucks to do two pinion breaks equals a $1020..Plus another 200 for a hydro steering valve and solid tie rod equals $1220 dollars.This is what it took to build my rockwells(which I am not even using at this time ) if I choose to weld them . Although this doesn't count my labor....The 1200 is looking pretty good for a pair versus the cost of a built 60 alone.But, like I said before I won't toss my 60 fronts now just because I have the rockwells.To be honest if you are starting from scratch the rockwells are a good choice ...if money is a factor the rockwells are a good choice...If you have a set of built one ton axles keep em unless you have money to burn as they are a good choice. if you got a set of dana 44 's under a sami keep em.(unless you plan on running 54 inch tires)...In the end there are numerous arguments for and against all kinds of drivetrains...the user has to decide what are the most important considerations and make a choice whether it costs 150 bucks or $5000. However, certainly some of the prices quoted for a pair of fully built rockwells ready to install are decent prices considering what someplaces are selling a pair of built axles (try buying a set of built 60's from dynatrac for that price...last time I checked 4500 was a starting point on their 60 fronts alone)..:D

I don't think that $4500 for a fully built and ready to install pair (yes notice I said pair meaning two) front rockwells is that far out of line for someone who does not have the time, facilities, or desire to spend hours or days chasing them down and then days, weeks, or months building them. Whew, what a run on sentance!

$4500 for a fully built pair of steering rockwells. That will hardly buy a pair from Boyce, stock.

Anybody interested in a set E-mail me or my partner for info

bmsn123@hotmail.com
bryany77@hotmail.com

Just to clarify..... our built rockwells for $4500 include


Two front steering axles with u-joint shafts
Front and rear brakes using wilwood 4 piston calipers
high heat brake pads
Two detroits installed
Rear pinion centered
Both axles cut to have same ground clearance as a Dana 44
Hubs flipped in
Hydraulic steering mounts and cylinders installed

Best deal out there for turn key axles


Todd
bmsn123@hotmail.com

Sorry Daniel, I missed the steering cylinders on both axles the first time that I read it. You really don't have to worry much about us as we only have about 4 fronts to sell and then we are back to working on our own stuff. We do not have a large supply and do not do this for a business. It is just another way to pay for this expensive hobby that we are addicted to.

Todd

The rockwells aren't exactly bolt in or easily put on a vehicle. I built my entire frame and stuff around the rockwells and it still is tight in some spots. I'm running 42's and I wouldn't want to run anything less becuase of the amount of lift you have to run to clear the damn diffs.

So, spend a ton on dana 60's, be like everyone else and be able to easily put them in a vehicle...

OR, get killer axles for an incredible deal that your gonna have to work with a lot to put in a vehicle...

CJ

trust me there is nothing easy abot the 60 i am building. every single piece is being hand made. the easyest part was the center section, all i had to do was order it.

Originally posted by onetonwillysands10
David, i can't believe my eyes but you quoted the gear ratio wrong:eek: ...6:17...I think you meant 6:72:D I guess it happens on occassions huh?


Oops :clown:

camo,

Oh I don't doubt it...but I was talking about installing them in a vehicle, not building the axle itself from scratch :P

CJ

Originally posted by camo
trust me there is nothing easy abot the 60 i am building. every single piece is being hand made. the easyest part was the center section, all i had to do was order it.


Oh yeah?
Well, I am having a HELL of a time forging my own cast center section in the basement, and all attempts to manually hot roll my own axle tubes out in the shed behind the house have failed miserably..
I have however been sharpening my teeth for when it comes time to machine the spindles and hubs :p

I have a pair of 60's and a pair of rockwells. The 60's are going in my Jeep because I want to be able to drive it on the street every day, and because I know how much work it is to "build" the truck around the Rockwells. I am saving the rockwells for my rock buggy that I'll build once I figure out how to run my JD2 bender. Rockwells are cheaper to use because of purchase price, gears already there, and cheap lockers (detroit, welded). You can also go to hydro steer for the same or less than hi-steer. No question about it though, it takes a LOT more to fit them into something. We're doing the Rockwell thing in a fullsize Bronco right now and we ended up moving the engine up 3" for oil pan clearance, and that's with 9" suspension lift already.

what sizes of wheels are avalable for rockwells and what can be done to get the tie rod out of the rocks, high steer?

Daniel,

Do you have any pictures you could post of the hi-steer for the Rockwell? Without staring at it too long, it either looks like there will have to be pretty long arms or they'll have to dip down some to clear the diff/driveshaft /pinion brake. Did you use tapered washers or just drill the holes and use studs? Thanks.

Geez, it was funny as hell. I dont know what some of these people are smoking when they try to compare the D60 and the rockwells.
I hope I only have to say this one. The d60 is rated at 3/4 ton to one ton applications. The rockwell axles are rated at 2.50 ton and up. What is there not to understand?
"The d60 has more splines on the shafts" Get over yourself. "Well, thier kinda the same size" What are you blind?!? "It wont fit under my jeep.."
If you wheel hard enough to need more than a d60, then you have some issues pal. If your running somthing over 44"s on a rockcrawling trail, your out of your mind.
Rockwells are awsome, and unbreakable. *sort of* but if you Realy need one, then your in the wrong sport. Time for you to upgrade to the tractor pulls or deep mud bogging.


Just my 2cents..

Jeepbeater ,
If you look closly to the Killeraxles you will see that they have an total different offset than stock UNIMOG axles ,front more offset rear center !
Also is the UNIMOG axle shaft bigger than an D60 shaft ,but normaly with an geared hub an D44 shaft would be strong enugh !
Nothing is unbreakable ! I was long in the German Army ,sometime I was playing around with an Leopard 2 A3 (I had an high rank so I could) main battle tank and I blew the whole transmision apart "nothing is unbreakable" !
If somebody wants an super strong portal axle I have one in my Mack M123A1 ten ton tracktor ,but the fly in the soup is the axle is heavier than a Jeep !
A lot of peoples here in the forum saying I want to blame this site , I do not want to blame anything or anybody ,I just want to talk here and I want to talk about four wheeling also I want to say the truth about UNIMOG axles !

Thanks

The d60 is rated at 3/4 ton to one ton applications. The rockwell axles are rated at 2.50 ton and up. What is there not to understand?
That's carrying capacity... and has a good bit to do with axle housing thickness and lifetime bearing load.

It would be interesting to take a stack of 60 axles and compare them on a torque dyno to a stack of rockwell axles.... If you are comparing 50 year old steel vs. new forgings, the technology has come a long ways, the steel has better continuity and less imperfections, and the old steel has a lifetime of cycles already into it. Comparing new alloy 60 to new alloy Rockwell might be a better test... It would be pretty cool to see what the differences REALLY are when you pit thinner yokes with a larger joint cross against thicker yokes with a smaller cross... or compare big diameter, coarse splines against smaller diameter fine splines.

Hell, most of our opinions are speculation, based on perhaps-not-so-applicable science, and a handful of isolated trail experiences (often relayed second-hand down the chain...). Nobody has done the lab results, unless you've seen Camo in a white coat with a pocket protector, rolling his mobile lab. :flipoff2:

Which is bigger? Hell that's EASY. Which is stronger? Proof is anecdotal, at best.

Randii

Hell, most of our opinions are speculation, based on perhaps-not-so-applicable science, and a handful of isolated trail experiences (often relayed second-hand down the chain...). Nobody has done the lab results, unless you've seen Camo in a white coat with a pocket protector, rolling his mobile lab.


THE TRUTH IS OHHH SO HILARIOUS!!!!

i still wouldn't swap my rockwells for 60's after taking them both apart...

Hey what about running two discs and building a bracket for another caliper to solve the braking probs.

just a thought.....

braking power isnt the problem it is the heat generated by the pinion brake and 2 discs per axle tends to lock 52 in tires way to easy 1 disc per axle is plenty for trail use and unless you are on a steep long decent they stay cool enough for trail use

I had the cash in my pocket and had a chance to pick and I went 60's. My reasons were:

ARB's going in the front and rear. Yeah you can use lockers and hydro steering and force the tires into submission with the RW's but I didn't want to do that.

Size: I have a PSD intercooler, huge rad, and didn't have any room for a top load axle at the height I want to run the truck.

Gears: who need 6:17's or whatever when you have a doubler? :D

Price: Have already spent more on the half done 60's than I would have in a set of finished RW's. Oh well.

Parts availability: If I blow out a CTM or destroy a warn shaft if I wanted to I have the ability of getting parts for my D60's local or even if I'm out of town. NAPA carry RW stuff? Nope.

I thought about it for a while and looked at as much info as I could find. Of course when I bought my 60's THEY were the "cool" axle to have! :p

Why not just go with a pair of 5 ton axles? Next to 5 ton
axles, D60s and 2.5 ton Rockwells look like kiddie toys.:D

Originally posted by camo



JUNK....the only mog axle i have ever seen in the rocks exploded the portal housing.

Hahahahahahttp://64.246.40.82/~marlincrawler/YaBBImages/smile/talkingn.gif

Originally posted by TEX
Well, this is from the perspective of a mud guy, so take that for what it's worth:

44 front, SF60 rear - that is the ABSOLUTE beefiest combo I'd ever consider. If for some strange reason I ever wanted to run 44" tires, then 60/70 or 60/60. But, I've never seen anyone with Rockwells & DOT tires do worth a schit in the slop.

TEX

out of curiousity, have u ever seen the "Mud Stud" out your way?? White Chevy pickup, coilovers, rockwells. and TONS of motor.. 44" boggers.. he's one of the best i've ever seen..

Well, since someone was curious enough to bring this back up to the top, I thought Id put in my .02... If it was my money, I'd rather spend MORE and get 60's. Yes they aren't AS strong, but they work, and work well, parts are available for them at napa, and when geared appropriately, can be used in a daily driver, or at least a semi daily driver. Thats a big thing for me. I like driving my rig around.. that is the biggest reason it isn't a pile of tubing and some seats. I like having metal to crunch LOL.
Scott