Alright. Welcome to the second installment of the

Topic of the Week

The subject for the week is the Spring Over Axle (SOA) conversion.

This is widely accepted to be one of the best bang for the buck modifications you can do to your Jeep.

This week's topic is NOT to be a primer on how to do this.

We all know that you need to put your spring perches on top of the axle.

Let's talk about refining the Jethro Suspension Lift.

Some suggested discussion points:
Addressing spring wrap
Custom spring packs - store bought vs how most of us do it
Non stock springs to consider and why... Other brands etc
Shocks - type, mounts, etc

Gentlemen, break out your welders!

I'm curious if anyone has used Custom Alcan springs in their SOA, perhaps with RE anti-wrap spring perches... What's the verdict? Still need something besides this combo to control spring wrap?

I have seen Alcans SOA & the guy liked them. Never saw them in action.
I use RE inti-wrap perches. Not sure if they help. They do not elimnate wrap w/ a soft spring like stock Wranglers.
I do not get noticeable wrap w/ my current springs (Rancho's w/ militay wraps - 1" lift I think). I must have some though, because the mount for my Sams style bar keeps breaking off the axle tube.

SHACKLE REVERSE OR FOREWARD?

I have done alot of research on this but im stil baffled as to what is best to do.

My goal is flex and articulation for rubicon style trails. +36" tires.
DANA FF rear, DANA 44 front.

I know i know, i have an XJ so what, I AM GOING LEAF :) Good Bye COILS

SHACKLE FOREWARD

With the XJ the controll arm mount can be used for the rear spring eye hanger.
Less need for extended drivelines
No spring dive
EZ setup

SHACKLE REVERSE

More Droop
Better Driveability
More Difficult Setup



What to do, What to do.... What would you do???

If using junkyard springs, waggy or wrangler? How much do the waggys actually extend your wheelbase, and how do they hold up compared to wrangler stockers.:question:

First off there really is no good way to run larger tires with a SUA axle. I run fodies with flat springs and no body lift. Some wonder what is the big deal with flat springs as opposed to arched ones well there are two things that come to mind. 1. The more arch you have in the spring the longer the shackle needs to be and that makes the bushings last longer and on a frontend it makes it drive better. 2. The ride.
One draw back I can think of that I doubt anyone is going to bring up is that you need to run better shocks to control the suspension though. 2 pr corner IMHO

If using stock CJ springs when SOA, a 4" drop pitman arm is the cheapest way to keep correct stearing.

Also, this method of traction bar DOES NOT prevent axle wrap:
http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/standard?pictid={53E31525-EC77-433D-A288-134ECC6E8EA5}

well when i first went soa i used skyjacker 4 inch springs. they only lasted a few months they sagged bent and the spring wrap was unbearable. at that piont i went to bds 3.5 yj springs. these springs have 5 leafs in the front and 4 in the back. after getting them and seeing the 4 leaves i decided they needed more than 4, so i dismantled what was left of my sky j springs and the bds rears and made myself a 6 leaf system for the rear using the 4 leafs in the bds packs and a add a leaf for the 4 inch sky j packs that i special ordered from sky j and the 3rd leaf from the top in the sky j pack. i installed the springs and had no problems at all. i ran these for 2 seasons with no problems and then decided to swap out the 1/2 ton drive train and go to 1 tons and a v8. when i did this i swapped my rear custom bds/sky j spring pack out for a bds 4 inch front waggy spring for the extra wheelbase. i am very happy with the waggy springs, no excessive axlewrap, no sagging, and they are a little taller than the yj springs so the ass sits a little higher( i like it this way). i may do the same to the front to extend the wheelbase a little more, but thats in the future. also just to let yah know i use m.o.r.e. anti wrap spring pads with the 3 holes in them to adjust your wheelbase a little more, they are excellent pads and i havnt seen any others i like more.

I am using some stock Wrangler springs with a full length leaf added to each. Bad axle wrap. Built a Sam's type traction bar. Helped big time with axle wrap but now I have "anti-squat", the rear lifts up under hard throttle.

Originally posted by Jeepdude_Jay
I am using some stock Wrangler springs with a full length leaf added to each. Bad axle wrap. Built a Sam's type traction bar. Helped big time with axle wrap but now I have "anti-squat", the rear lifts up under hard throttle.


If you have room to squeeze in a longer traction bar, that will help that issue. The longer it is, the less you'll notice the lifting.

Originally posted by I Lean



If you have room to squeeze in a longer traction bar, that will help that issue. The longer it is, the less you'll notice the lifting.



What I have found that works well, with long or shorter wrap bars, is to pre-load the tension on the wrap bar. Set the wrap bar about an inch or more above the shackle mount, then use a bottle jack, between the bottom of the tub and the wrap bar to force it into position and set the shackle bolt. This will give you very positive rear wheel, hook up, on hard exceleration, or very steep climbs.

First off SOA is a way of life, I suggest making your own springs, I used wrangler leafs and for my main leaf I used 3-1/2 Black diamamond lift kit springs for a Wrangler works great so far and I used a lot of leafs like 7 in the back to keep the wrap down hope it all works like Ive planed

Originally posted by Steven_Mc
I'm curious if anyone has used Custom Alcan springs in their SOA, perhaps with RE anti-wrap spring perches... What's the verdict? Still need something besides this combo to control spring wrap?

i use wangler 2" lift springs in the front...i still cant justify spending that kinda money on a leaf spring that will still go bad. especially when wangelr spings are almost free. then just slap in some AAL or chop up a used 4" lift spring pack (dont go buy one)

Chris G.:beer:

Rubicon Express spring over springs, good bad or ugly? Any one run them? I've been running stock YJ packs with an extra main leaf as the second leaf in the pack since 96, and am fairly pleased, but have heard a few good reviews of the RE packs. Worth the cash or just keep building Stock packs?

Ken

I here that the RE springs work great but they are very exspensive. I will stick to making my own packs I like to play with different packs any way.:smokin:

I'm giving up on being the sideline topic steering guy. The last one of these Jeff thought I was a rich machinist guy, or something like that.:rolleyes:

I build my own springs. Keep trying untill you get the ride and height you want. The next set on my CJ/YJ thingie is going to start with Black Diamond 3.5's, and +/-/play from there. All the hoopla on use this spring for this and this one flexes better blah blah blah is prettty much useless if you build it right. On my old '7 I got as much travel as the shocks allowed. On the front shackle I used longish ones at a fairly decent amount of angle. This allows for more droop. I got 14" of travel out of CJ springs. What more can you ask?

Cut the things that hold the pack together when drooping. ( the "C" shaped deals) Watch your shackle angle. I have mine at 5 degrees FULLY extended. Or about 45 at rest. The most important angle to remember is around 6 degrees of caster on the front diff. If you are cutting/turning the knuckles you can point the pinion towards the T- case but other wise keep it at around 6 degrees. If you are using a rear Cardan/ C.V joint point it at or 2 degrees below the output of the T-case. Depending on your traction bar set up. Expect axle wrap, and fix it before it fixes you.


Another thing if you are running stock axles just buy a full traction bolt on S.O.A. kit from me, and only me:flipoff2: :rolleyes: And be happy. For the amount of engineering/ time you will have into figuring it out yourself, the kit's cheaper. If you are not running stock axles then do it yourself.

Stock Jeep axles? :confused: http://www.colorado4x4.org/ubb/smilies/spit.gif :flipoff2:

Another popular spring is, believe it or not, the JC Whitney rear 7 leaf CJ springs. 7 leafs and military wrapped at both ends. I bold that because you wouldn't believe how often some clown buys the YJ ones then says he's unimpressed :rolleyes: These CJ springs are an excellent choice for 35's IMO. Any larger tire and you might need to do some trimming. The 7 leaf front Waggy springs from JC Worthless have also gotten a good rep. so far but I personally haven't seen or used them.

BDS springs have a sweet warranty and attractive pricing, but experiences have been mixed so far. Putzboy and I have the 2" YJ springs and Putz sagged them out in a hurry. Mine hasn't left the garage yet but I've installed additional leafs (they're only 4 leaf new) and will have a wrap bar from day one in hopes of avoiding Putz's experiences. If I end up not liking the BDS I'll be giving the JC Whitney Waggy springs a try.

An anti-wrap bar is pretty much a must-have with any SOA regardless of the spring choice/combo.

:beer:

Might be drifting off subject a little, but along these same lines, does anyone have any resources on building your own springs. ie information to give a guestimate on final spring rate with a certain number and thickness and length of spring. I don't mind trial and error to some extent, but if I could go from 7 or 6 tries down to 2 or 3 that could save a lot of time. I looked through my Mark's Mechanical Engineering handbook, but the information on leaf springs is very limited, does a Machinest Handbook have more, or are there other (possible online) resources for the custom spring builder? I realize with so many factors influencing spring rate, there probably isn't a exact equations, but surely there are some estimates that could help me/us get close.

Chad

Originally posted by Eric Ruhl

An anti-wrap bar is pretty much a must-have with any SOA regardless of the spring choice/combo.

:beer: [/B]
:confused: is that why my springs are in a permeate "S" shape? i use my stock 86 CJ springs in the rear w/ a full length AAL outa some and have had limited axle wrap...i have traction bar plans in the making.

Also i have seen a couple jeeps running what i call a "sandwich" spring perch it has a plate on the bottom and a plate on the top and 4 bolts hold it together (no u bolts) Is anyone running this setup for there SOA's? what are the advantages?

Chris G.:beer:

I found some specs on rancho's web site for the 44044's that ppl here seem to be using for soa. I can't afford to buy them new so I'm gonna have my local spring shop make them for half the price. The rancho spring specs list all kinds of usefull info that should be enough info for a spring builder to use to make the same springs.

http://www.gorancho.com/products/applications.stm

http://www.gorancho.com/documents/specifications_3.pdf

Hope this helps.

i was reading in Peterson's about the different perch angels for either regular driveshafts or cvjoints. my 44' are about to be welded up and i was wondering what the 'best' way to determine the proper perch angle. i have no idea what i'm going to do for driveshafts yet. so, is there a safe zone i can shoot for that will work ok for any setup?

thanks - russel

Originally posted by olivesman
i have no idea what i'm going to do for driveshafts yet. so, is there a safe zone i can shoot for that will work ok for any setup?


No.

OK i am going to swap a waggy D44 in my YJ with a SOA. If i weld the new perches on parallel to the waggy ones, will it give me the proper 6-7* of caster? I will not be running a CV shaft.

Any thought, i have searched and found several comments but nothing definate. I just want to know before i lay down a bead.


I know i am beating a dead horse but hell, i wanna do this right!

Oh ya i will be using my well broken in RE 2.5" lift springs.

It shouldn't be too hard to check caster, just put your axle on your cinder blocks, put a level on the existing pads, and get them level, then measure the angle off the ball joints relative to the floor, do some geometry and presto there's your present caster. If it ain't right roll the axle until you got the angle you need, and then hold it there while you weld on your new perches using a level to keep them paralle to the floor (assuming your shop floor is level). Isn't this it, or is it more complicated than my simple mind is making it?

Chad

Originally posted by Steve N
[B]I'm giving up on being the sideline topic steering guy. The last one of these Jeff thought I was a rich machinist guy, or something like that.:rolleyes:
B]


Hahahaha, Come awn, admit it. We know you have a small army of sweat shop machinists, and mechanics milling out, and installing, custom parts at your every whim..... All while you watch, from high above, in your air conditioned control room overlooking the entire operation.:flipoff2:

I agree with the need for an anti-wrap bar on a SOA. I did the SOA 2 months ago and the axle wrap just got worse and worse. I just got an anti-wrap bar built and installed, what a difference.
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/img33.jpg
http://www.users.qwest.net/~jkflorence/index.htm/img34.jpg

Originally posted by DownunderBender



Hahahaha, Come awn, admit it. We know you have a small army of sweat shop machinists, and mechanics milling out, and installing, custom parts at your every whim..... All while you watch, from high above, in your air conditioned control room overlooking the entire operation.:flipoff2:


Well I do have an upstairs air conditioned office that I never go into unless I have to sleep at the shop 'cause Michelle told me to sleep somewhere else.:flipoff2:

I have a 78 J20 3/4ton pickup. I sprung over the front and shackle flipped the rear. At first It didn't flex for sh!t with the 3/4 ton springs, so I went to the junk yard and for $50 I got a whole set of waggy springs. The flex was awsome, but I was still too long. A couple of months ago, I moved the rear axle 12.5 inches forward and put stock cj front springs on the rear of my J20. Now my wheel base is a foot shorter, and with the shorter springs on the rear the overall length is almost 2 feet shorter. (still using the waggy fronts).
Here at J&D off-road in Joplin, Missouri, the way we get rid of axle wrap totally and not affect flex is by welding a semi-box to the top of the rear diff, tap the top of it and bolt another plate on top of the box. Then we take a piece of 2"x2" tubing weld a 1" pin into the end of it, and run it to a cross member. In the cross member we weld in a large Heim joint, the pin from the end of the tubing slides into the heim and controls the axle wrap. I know this is kind of hard to picture from my sorry explanation, hopefully I can post some pics up soon. But this method has proven to work really well even on my buddy's 87 SOA yj with stock flimsy springs. here are some of the rigs we have used and proved it on.

Joe Walker
75 CJ 5: 60's front and rear, SOA rear, coil sprung front, extended front and rear all the way to 104" wheel base and 44" TSL's

Travis Miller
87 yj: stock axles, SOA, stock springs. 35" TSL's

Dennis Miller
85 CJ7: Scout 44's, SOA 2.5" skyjacker springs. 38.5 TSL's

Mike Walker
84 Toyota pickup: 60's front and rear, SOA rear, coil front, extended to 119.5" wheel base. 44" TSL's

Josh Brooks
78 J20: 44hd front, 60 rear, waggy front springs, stock cj front sprins (on the rear) shortened to 119.5" and 38" TSL's

and a few others.....

i have a question about the offset spring perches. i think it is either RE or MORE who make their perches with offset wholes for wheelbase options. is there any downside to using these along with front waggy springs to lengthen your wheelbase in the front and rear(94 YJ 4.0)?

the way i picture them, they seem like they would create more axle wrap. it seems like with the already necessary wrap bar in the rear, it should be okay, but what about the front- would it need a wrap bar?

something else just popped into my head...one big thing that is bashing the Shackle Reversal setup is the brake dive. by extending the front wheelbase via the position of the axle under the springs (rather than moving the whole spring forward), wouldnt brake dive be reduced? tell me if i am wrong on this, but if not, it would be another advantage to using waggy springs- especially with SR on a daily driver. (THIS IS ALL ASSUMING AN SOA!) let me know your thoughts!


- jake

I never had any problem with axle wrap on my mj when I went spring over. I personally think that it had to do with teh THICK bottom helper leaf.

I could be wrong...you all can tell me. teh plus side to it was a 1/2 inch of lift with just one bottom leaf. the downsides are that it would not let the leaf flex past flat.

Originally posted by chadl
It shouldn't be too hard to check caster, just put your axle on your cinder blocks, put a level on the existing pads, and get them level, then measure the angle off the ball joints relative to the floor, do some geometry and presto there's your present caster. If it ain't right roll the axle until you got the angle you need, and then hold it there while you weld on your new perches using a level to keep them paralle to the floor (assuming your shop floor is level). Isn't this it, or is it more complicated than my simple mind is making it?

Chad

You need to set caster while the axle is under the vehicle and the springs are loaded, the springs can affect your caster depending on shackle position and or reversal brackets.

How many of you guys run or recommend a front anti-wrap bar? I've noticed since doing my SOA I've got a lot more hop from the front.

Originally posted by CJBoxer


You need to set caster while the axle is under the vehicle and the springs are loaded, the springs can affect your caster depending on shackle position and or reversal brackets.

ahh... very good point... However if you aren't changing the suspension other than doing the spirng over, couldn't you measure the angle you currently have, and figure it into your caster measurement. I'll admit, I haven't done this yet, but will be in the near future, and really don't want to have to do the whole swap, put the weight of the vehicle on the axle, and then pull it all back apart, and make the minor adjustments to caster...

chad

hell sounds like you boys (chad) are doing it the hard way! what i do when i am setting up a SOA is get the axle under the jeep with the spring perches just setting on top.

then place jack stands under the axle

(you dont have to do this step)get the ubolts on there.

now you have all the weight of the jeep on the axle just like it the tires were on.

now get a jack on the yolk of the axle and jack that puppy up till your pinon and you caster are where you want them to be.

tack the perch.
take off the u bolts and weld the rest (if you did not put the u bolts on then you can skip this step)

poof you are done as soon as you put the u bolts back on! i thought this i how everone did it!

Chris G.:beer:

Yeah yeah yeah, i'm always doing things the hard way...

Actually what you said, is what I was planning on doing on the rear axle, to get it setup for a CV shaft. However on the front, I'm hoping to keep the pinion horizontal, so I can use a standard shaft. what you said would seem to work good for making small changes, but I've seen scout axles setup this way, with the pinion pointed at the dirt. I guess what I'm saying, if I have to make major changes to the caster, (I'm hoping I don't), then I want to do it at the knuckle, not by rolling the pinion, and that means lots 'o grinding and welding, which would be easier with the axle out of the vehicle,

chad

Top

Performed a SOA on a 49 Willys P/UP. Had Chevy 350/350/spicer 18combo, front spicer27/rear spicer 53. that thing RAWKED:p

............IE INFORMATION ON FINAL SPRING RATE...........CUT DOWN FROM 7 TO 6 TIMES TO 2 TO 3 TIMES.........

Heres My Backyard Spring Formula,,,,,

1. get something slick to sit one or both ends of the leaf onto,
(plastic cutting board, several sheets of wax paper, etc).

2. use an assortment of workout weights,

3. add weights to spring to compress it 1"

4. add up weights & that is your spring rate @ lbs/inch

hint: drop a bolt into centering holes and torque it to @35 ft.lbs.

I did this to my 49 Willys truck after the SOA, and did this to my XJ. Can't tell you how to calculate height, I have a couple sets of rear lift blocks to zero in my desired height. I currently have a 5" rear lift using 2" blocks. I get full droop/compression from my 14" travel shocks on my grocery gettin' XJ.

Hope this helps out. :beer: :usa:

I ran out of time to read the rest of the thread, but I would like to bring up a good point. When you droop or flex your spring, you're trying to twist a flat spring at an angle in relation to the mounting bolt. This twisting will actually "stiffen" a spring thus defeating the purpose of the spring.

I have GM springs on the front of my s-10, and I put a "johnny joint" in the eye of the non shackle end. This allows the spring itself to rotate in relation to the axle. The shackle allows rotating on the other end. This also prevents twisting of the leaf which we know causes damage. I just feel this is an overlooked subject that can make a big difference. I don't know what the dia. of the eyes are on the jeep spring, but 2" jonny joints fit like a glove on my leafs.