Would you rather have a small block or a big block in your muddin' rig?

Why?

i prefer a small block in lighter rigs. i like the quickness to higher rpms. in my heavy 96 with 44 inch tires, i like the torque of a big block, coupled to an auto for quicker shifts.

this all has to do with driving style, gears, axles, types of mud (we have red clay) and weight of vehicle.

thats just my .o2 worth

i run alot of mud, and in my experience, a sb works well with a manual tranny, since they can turn a few more rpms, u can squeeze a little more outta them.. to run a bb, id def go with an auto though, they cant trun alot of rpms, but if they can shift without loosing momentem then they work great.

Id have to say SBC. Turnin those revs in the small block really helps you get thru the mud. Plus its a great deal lighter, maybe you wont sink into the mud quite as much as with a BB. :emb:

well you need to explain, a stock bbc will not turn as much rpm's as a sbc, but on the other hand i am building a 572 that should turn around 7500 rpm so i would rather have a rat motor than a sbc you can get more power out of them with less work but they are more expensive to work on and heavier, but i dont think that a couple hundred pounds will really hurt when you bolt in close to 1000 horse motor. even if i had a choice of two stockers i would put the big block in because they make more power even though they dont spin as fast.

just my 2 cent

in a smaller rig (jeep, yota s-10) SBC stroker with manual trans or manual valve body auto. in a full size stroker big block with manual valve body auto...

I have an sbc and manual (see sig) and it works just fine in the mud as long as you keep the rpms up.

Tell us what this will be in. Then everyone can give more specific answers :)

Have run 327, 350, 454, 496, & 502 in the same 42" to 44" TSL/Bogger 4800# rig. In deep mud and snow with the small block I had to run at redline a lot which is fine for racing but just wheeling that gets old in a hurry. Would never go back to a small block in this rig.

However, in a buggy, Yota, Jeep or other rig less than 4000# and 40" tires I would go with a 383 sbc and could avoid the D70 & D80 requirements of a built BBC.

It makes no difference, power is power....

the more low end torque you make with a bbc the higher gearing you can have, so the more wheel speed.

the more RPM you can turn with a SBC, the lower gearing you can have, so the more wheel speed.


Personally, I would rather have a high torque engine for less money, and more reliability, so the big block wins every time. but thats just me. You situation might be different. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. :cool2:

I've never heard anyone regret they have a BBC (or any big block) for the mud. I run a TH400/NP205/4.11's. I used to have a 350, then changed to a near stock 454 and run 39.5's. . Lots of power on and offroad. I think the SBC is good for 36" tires or smaller in the mud. Don't forget, in certain mud, when your tires start to 'gum up' it's nice to have that BB torque to get you going again. Overall I got 9mpg with the SBC, and now I get 8 mpg (10-11mpg hwy) with the BBC, but lots more power. I love my BB and wouldn't go back to a small block for a mud truck. Also note that I run a D60/14ff combo to minimize the chance of breakage. I don't think you'd regret a BB.

'Bgreen' made a some good points. BB's provide lots of low rpm torque (most factory BB's are good to 5000rpm without problem), they are reliable, don't need fancy parts or high compression for power, and are relatively cost effective. And like Magnum Willys said, it's nice to have low rpm power just for wheeling and not having to rev out. To each his own. :grinpimp:

Well, it depends. Would I take a 434" SBC with aluminum heads over an iron-headed 396? Duh! Would I take a 350 over a 585 rat? No. Also depends on your application. A big-block would make my truck illegal for the mud racing class in which I compete. So, obviously I don't run one.

Personally, I would not run a stock-stroke 454 or any of the smaller big-blocks for any reason at all. I don't think the power advantage overcomes the weight factor. It's too easy & cheap to build an aluminum-headed 400 to go with any of the small-mid displacement rats for mud. Now, a stroked BBC or siamesed bore (502) is another story. Preferably, it's both stroked and siamesed (540+) ;).

TEX

As already mentioned there are lot's of factors to consider.......like Tex mentioned not all small blocks are the same, and not all big blocks are the same. A friend has a ZZ4 350 crate motor (350 h.p., 400 ft-lbs.) that will start right up the morning, idle over rocks all day, and then whump through the mud in the evening........there is no way he would trade it for anything resembling a stock or mildly built big block. Not saying that SBC's are the best, but just one example.

well if you get technical you can build a sbc to be the same cubic inches if not more than a bbc is stock so you can keep the light weight and make killer power all with a sbc...

my experience with sbc vs bbc.

when mildly modified, if you have say a 400" sbc (406-434) and a 400" bbc (396-427)

If both engines make the same amount of hp, say a 500 hp 434 sbc and a 500 hp 427, the small block will build more torque than the big block. that contradicts most all beliefs about sbc vs bbc. If you have a comparable big block vs a smallblock, the small block will always beat a big block out of the hole, atleast in drag racing.

for an example look at bill mitchells hard core motors. they sell stroker big block that averages ~700 hp and ~600 tq. they also sell a small block that averages ~700 hp and ~700 tq. their sbc's out torque the comparable bbc.

I run a BBC in my race car cause everybody else does... and its what I had laying around. if I had it to do over I would have saved myself about half what I spent on the BBC, 200 lbs worth of weight and probably went faster with an SBC.

This isnt really an insight on what to run in your mud truck, I think truck setup/mud type should dictate what motor you run. this is just an observation I've made with my messing with sbc and bbc mills.


*edit* the above claims are arbitrary. obviously a 540+ cube bbc is gonna destroy a 406" sbc. its apples and oranges. I say run the SBC to the point where you could make more power with less effort and strain with a bbc.

I like my big block. I liked my small block too. I don't think either is better. What matters is the torque and horsepower numbers IMHO. Not the size of the motor.

Big block big block big block :)

Oh I jus hate my 454 ... it's just too much damn power. takes all the fun out of it.... if only a 4 banger would bolt up I'd trade....... BAHAHAHA

it doesn't matter, just go with the most cubic inches for how much you can afford, especially if you are going to run a small profile cam!

When the question was posted, I thought SBC=350cid and BBC=454. The 454 would be the better choice in my mind, and for my application, and budget.

Most any motor can be built up with the right parts to give you what your looking for, just depends on what you budget is. I would love to have an aluminum block SBC with matching performance heads and some well thought out components to make it a stout motor. My budget won't allow me. I ended up getting a BBC (454) rebuilt with just a hi-torque cam, new pistons (9:1 ), rblt Quadrajet, all for $1300. Reliable motor with great low-end torque, regular pump gas, and it fit my budget.

We'd be better able to help you if you gave us an idea of your engine budget and what kind of vehicle your planning to put it in. If you want a real big GM BB why not go for a 500cid Caddy engine? Lots of torque there with a mild cam. Check out http://www.500cid.com/ for some idea. Also go to the forum and browse around.

going back to buckshots post. those numbers are for a normal bb. take a tall deck and make it do 500h, the torque will be well above 500 horse, granted, stock rods for a td are like 100$ each, so hipo ones are real pricey, but if u had the money to build the motor, it can turn some decent rpms, and make loads of power. lots of drag cars use tall decks, they make tons of power in low rpms. me and some of the local mud runners love to run the 427tds, stock motor, with a good flow intake and headers wakes the motor up a good bit and they really make the power. plus theyre localy theyre actually cheaper since usually noone wants them

I 2nd the caddy BB, they arnt that much heavier than a SBC and you can get some monster power out of them.

me and some of the local mud runners love to run the 427tds, stock motor, with a good flow intake and headers wakes the motor up a good bit and they really make the power. plus theyre localy theyre actually cheaper since usually noone wants them

Got a couple pals with tall-deck 427's, but none of 'em kept the stock stroke ;)

TEX

There is no replacement for displacement. :p

going back to buckshots post. those numbers are for a normal bb. take a tall deck and make it do 500h, the torque will be well above 500 horse, granted, stock rods for a td are like 100$ each, so hipo ones are real pricey, but if u had the money to build the motor, it can turn some decent rpms, and make loads of power. lots of drag cars use tall decks, they make tons of power in low rpms. me and some of the local mud runners love to run the 427tds, stock motor, with a good flow intake and headers wakes the motor up a good bit and they really make the power. plus theyre localy theyre actually cheaper since usually noone wants them



most drag racers use tall deck blocks because it allows them to run a longer rod with their stroker cranks yielding a better rod/stroke ratio. reduces piston dwell at TDC, stuff like that. when you stroke a BBC (or any motor) you put the wrist pin farther up in the piston ringland. this causes problems with piston strength etc. you run a tall deck so you can run a longer rod for the rod/stroke ratio and allow the wrist pin to come back down some on the piston so it doesnt cause problems.

a 427 short deck and a 427 tall deck is just that, a 427. only difference is the pistons are heavier because they have a taller ringland with an extra ring.
dont get me wrong though, a 427 is a great motor, I love mine.

Also, the idea that "stroking" a motor adds torque is not true. when you put a stroker crank in an engine, it gets bigger. its the displacement that adds the torque. the bigger you build your motor (assuming you have the right cam/heads/intake etc for building torque) the more torque it will produce.

when you destroke a motor, you allow it to do one thing. achieve a higher rpm and remain stable. the shorter the stroke the lighter the rotating assembly and centripital forces etc the faster it can turn and still not come apart. this is the thinking behind nascar motors. most nascar motors are 358 chevys. thats not a .040 over 350, its a 400 sbc with around a 4.165 bore and a 3.25(ish) crank. the short arm of the crank allows for more rpm.

When ever you hear somebody say "383's run better than 400's" or "destroke your 400 to a 377" they dont know what they're talking about if you are trying to build big power. the bigger it is, the more power it will make. an engine is just an airpump, the bigger it is/the more air you can get in it, the more you can get out of it.

and finally your lesson for dynos for the day. A dyno measures the torque output of an engine (or at the wheels) at a given rpm. it uses a mathamatical equation to determine the horsepower from your torque. that is why they say torque moves a car, horsepower sells it. that is why a 700hp twin turboed toyota supra runs 13's in the quarter mile. they make jack for torque and when the do make any its at such a high rpm that its useless.

I could go into all kinds of cam dynamics with lift duration etc but we'll save that for another lesson. if you guys want a little help in picking or putting a combo together msg me, I've read volumes on it and understand it pretty well. I've put a few motors together in my time also. People who know their stuff and know what it takes to make a motor do what they want would probably agree with what I've said here...

or I could be dilusional....