Probably gonna take a few hits off this one so :flipoff2: right off the bat:D

I know that DOM stands for Drawn Over Mandrel , what does HREW stand for and is HREW in 2" tube gonna be strong enough for a roll cage in a K5.

Also what wall thickness is recomended for a roll cage with 2" tube.


Thanks

Depdog:usa:

and to all you flamers:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

hot rolled electric welded... which is what DOM is.. its just then drawn over a mandrel and that gets rid of most of the evidence of a seam. So I wouldnt waste the $$ on DOM. .120 should do it with a good design

Pretty much all sanctioning bodies have 2”x .120 as a minimum thickness for cages on vehicles over 3500 lbs.

Originally posted by mike
hot rolled electric welded... which is what DOM is.. its just then drawn over a mandrel and that gets rid of most of the evidence of a seam. So I wouldnt waste the $$ on DOM. .120 should do it with a good design

There is a big difference between HREW and DOM. The drawing process for DOM cold works the material and greatly increased the strength, the yield strength is about 75% greater for DOM. Generally, DOM is about twice the price of HREW. It all depends on what your intended use is, for a rockcrawler, HREW is probably more than adequate. And also it depends on the design.

Originally posted by GOAT1


There is a big difference between HREW and DOM. The drawing process for DOM cold works the material and greatly increased the strength, the yield strength is about 75% greater for DOM. Generally, DOM is about twice the price of HREW. It all depends on what your intended use is, for a rockcrawler, HREW is probably more than adequate. And also it depends on the design.

We've been through this all before. And you are the absolute first person I've ever heard claim anything remotely near 75% improvement in yield capacity. First. So, if you dont mind I wont believe you. Since the information I've been given for the past several years indicates a nominal difference in yield strength. Zalright? :)

:) Okay. first thing you do is build your friend a cage for a demo. Then you can see how it looks and improve yours. probably would work best if it was the same year too. Then maybe add some nerfs and racks and so on. I'm sure he wouldn't mind. He would buy the tube of course!:) Call me when it comes in:flipoff2:

Well with a good design and supports, why not PIPE! Cost you less and for rock crawling it's all you need if you don't care about weight, trail tested and approved!
:flipoff2: :flipoff2:

First pipe is for farmers.
Second most bender dies dont fit pipe.
Third I have seen people try to bend pipe and have the seen split. Dont think that would be to cool in a roll over.
Forth CRW or HREW dont coast that much more than pipe. Certainly not enuff to risk your life on.

First, Pipe is for whoever wants to use it
Second, get a pipe bender it's hundred less!
Third, I've rolled HARD over backwards from a steep slope 15 feet up to flat packed road below and never split anything but maybe my gut when I impacted.
Fourth you can get pipe for a ton less than hrew, I've shopped around. The steel for my entire exo cost me less than $40. I trust my cage waaay more than many I've seen done on here. Use the "right" materials and still take your life or someone elses into your hands because you can't design a cage with sh_t! So don't tell me if I use hrew or DOM everything will be fine. I saw a guy roll over frontwards and it smashed his cage in a good two feet and he used that DOM! It's all about design, welds, and descent material.
I'm using tube now only because it is lighter, not for strength issues!
Just my tested experience and book knowledge though.:p

I would have to agree that cage design seems to be lower in priority than materials and type of bender used.

I purchased arguably the best commercially available cage for the Early Bronco from Mike Kirkus at www.completeoffroad.com

Great design, 2" x .120" DOM, mandrel bent, fully gussetted. I got it used from Mike for a great price, and it will be perfect in my trail rig / occasional street driver.

I am helping a couple buddies build a cage for their EB desert racer. For the high speeds, we used mandrel-bent DOM also, which was "Best in the Desert" series mandated. One place we improved the design was adding 1 1/2" DOM gussets, versus plate gussets.

Madrel bending doesn't kink bends like a pipe bender will, thereby weakening the bends. BUT, if a pipe bender and pipe will work for someone's particular application, more power to them. It would cost a lot less than my alternative. I chose the strongest means, as the Early Bronco is a fairly heavy vehicle.

Blazer 79, does that mean that yer gonna buy the tube for both of us. :D :D If so, come on down and we will go :rasta: nuts with it. I will call and get prices on both hrew and dom in 2" .120 wall tomorrow.

I hope to hear from them on a time frame for delivery as well.

Depdog:usa:

You guys kill me.......

You don't think twice about spending $1500 on a set of wheels and tires, but when it comes time to SAVE YOUR LIFE, you try and argue that PIPE is "strong enuff" and you SAVED a couple hundred bucks......:eek:

DO YOU FAIL TO SEE THE LOGIC????
If your gonna build something that is ment to SAVE YOUR LIFE shouldn't $$ be the least of your worries?


I love the story's of PIPE cages "hold'n up just fine"....
Do you, or have you ever wonder'd why NO SANCTION'D racing will allow PIPE??

PIPE IS FAR WEAKER than TUBE.....

And for the DOM is %75 stronger than HREW comment, PLEASE show some info that backs your statement... I would REALLY like to read it.....

Coil'd is right about the Design part, but why would you spend the TIME to build a cage from PIPE??:confused:

Source: http://www.ryersontull.com/stocklist/RedbookServlet?COM=GetStaticPage&ID=1975



For 1020 HREW.... 52,000 PSI Tensile Strength, 38,000 PSI Yield Strenth

For 1026 DOM...... 85,000 PSI Tensile Strength, 75,000 PSI Yield Strength

63% improvement in Tensile Strength

97% improvement in Yield Strength

1020-vs-1026?:confused:

AISI 1020.....HREW 52,000 Tensile.... 38,000 Yield......
1020.....DOM 70,000 Tensile.... 60,000 Yield....

35% in Tensile.....58% Yield......

Good find on the specs!!!! I wasn't aware of just how big a gain there was in the Brinell...
Can you find um on PIPE?? I'd sure like to know.....

I was looking at the specs, simply with performance in mind.

You're absolutely right about my comparison. I should have actually done a 1020 comparison..... I musta been :zzz:


I'll see what I can find for info on pipe.... Schedule 40 / 2" OD?

WHen was the last time you bought 1026HREW or 1020DOM?
I usually see them in the opposite offerings.

Hardness does not have too much to do with it either, the main differance is grain structure, and stress concentration.

My girlfriend can bend HREW1020 all day long with a 3 foot handle, The DOM 1026 takes all I have got.

Using pipe is ASS!, I would aggree though that design is more important than DOM vs HREW.

I have been amazed by the resilliance of DOM and I have snapped it before also, but I am a believer, my whole cage, suspension and steering are 2"DOM. I use the 2" HREW also, on stuff like my seat frame.

Originally posted by Tin Bender
You guys kill me.......

You don't think twice about spending $1500 on a set of wheels and tires, but when it comes time to SAVE YOUR LIFE, you try and argue that PIPE is "strong enuff" and you SAVED a couple hundred bucks......:eek:

DO YOU FAIL TO SEE THE LOGIC????
If your gonna build something that is ment to SAVE YOUR LIFE shouldn't $$ be the least of your worries?


I love the story's of PIPE cages "hold'n up just fine"....
Do you, or have you ever wonder'd why NO SANCTION'D racing will allow PIPE??

PIPE IS FAR WEAKER than TUBE.....

And for the DOM is %75 stronger than HREW comment, PLEASE show some info that backs your statement... I would REALLY like to read it.....

Coil'd is right about the Design part, but why would you spend the TIME to build a cage from PIPE??:confused:


Yes, let's PLEASE look at some FACTS!

"Pipe" is a nomenclature, as in NAME, NOT a grade of tube!
According to the Canadian Institute of Steel Construction Handbook; ALL PIPE made in Canadian Mills under ASTM A53 standards (as in AMERICAN STANDARDS!!) is either 25, 30, or 35ksi steel! Which means, the worst grade of steel PIPE still has a yield strength of 25,000psi! :p

Which makes what Coil'd said earlier all the more important. It's the DESIGN, not ONLY the materials that makes a cage. In a full-size rig like a Blazer where a hundred pounds or so of extra weight is neither here nor there; WHY the hell NOT use a thicker wall pipe with a good design?? This is a simple matter of correct engineering! Use an adequate material & a good design with some safety factor built in!

For my part; it'll cost me almost $1000 Canadian to get a JD-2 bender while I can get the 16-ton pipe bender with all the dies up to 3" on sale this week for $244!! So it's NOT $100 difference but $700! Further to that; I've talked to a stock car guy in BC who's been running PIPE cages for years, taken several 80-90 mph hits, & only bent the cage a little!

As to the $1500 tires & wheel comment, HOW the HELL are tires & wheel quality NOT a life safety issue??? So having a super DOM cage for when your cheap shit steel-wheels fail under the stress from your 38" SX's is fine, is it?? :flipoff2:

OK, now you can start flaming back at me!! :D

Originally posted by mike


We've been through this all before. And you are the absolute first person I've ever heard claim anything remotely near 75% improvement in yield capacity. First. So, if you dont mind I wont believe you. Since the information I've been given for the past several years indicates a nominal difference in yield strength. Zalright? :)

I am just stating what is poblished in most metal supplier's specifications and what I have personally seen tested in a lab. Based on some of the other posts, the people that actually know what they are talking about also agree with me.
here is where I get my info http://www.emjmetals.com/emjonline/esl.exe?hactid=1&hacmid=1&haclev=0&eslgrp=0&eslmtl=0&eslgrd=ROPS&eslcur=0&eslsz=65535&eslfid=0&eslfgrp=0&eslfmat=0&eslfgrd=0&eslfdesc=0&eslfdtxt=0&eslfsize=0&eslfsizes=0&eslfsp=0&eslftens=0&eslftrmt=0&eslfyeld=0&eslfelon=0&eslfspec=0&eslfbspc=0&eslfchm=0&eslfmech=0&eslfapps=0&eslfelon2in=0&eslfelon2pr=0&eslfelon8in=0&eslfrwhd=0&eslfbrhd=0&eslfreda=0&eslfizod=0&eslfform=0&eslftitle=0&eslfbdsg=0&eslfmcom=0&eslfchry=0&eslfchri=0&eslfvchr=0&eslfm90cb=0&eslfmach=0&eslfcspd=0&eslfweld=0&eslftols=0&eslfforg=0&eslfhdng=0&eslfhtrt=0&eslfcarb=0&eslfcorr=0&eslftest=0&eslfannl=0&eslfbend=0&eslfnorm=0&eslftchr=0&eslftemp=0&eslfpnch=0&eslfshfc=0&eslfrtsc=0&eslfstrl=0&eslfsalt=0&eslfshapes=0&eslfpnum=0&eslgrps=Tube+%2B+Pipe&eslmtls=Carbon&eslm1=Chemistry&eslm2=Tensile&eslm3=Yield&eslm4=Rockwell+Hardness

For everyone that is really concerned about safety, but still a tight ass, build the main part of the cage (hoop, halo, front legs, ect) out of DOM .120 wall. Then if your cheap make the rest out of HREW. and maybe .95 wall or .83 wall to keep it light.

Just some thoughts.

One benefit of the DOM tubing is when your bending you don't have to pay attention to where the welded seam is...mainly because you can't see it :P

CJ

Originally posted by GOAT1


I am just stating what is poblished in most metal supplier's specifications and what I have personally seen tested in a lab. Based on some of the other posts, the people that actually know what they are talking about also agree with me.
here is where I get my info http://www.emjmetals.com/emjonline/esl.exe?hactid=1&hacmid=1&haclev=0&eslgrp=0&eslmtl=0&eslgrd=ROPS&eslcur=0&eslsz=65535&eslfid=0&eslfgrp=0&eslfmat=0&eslfgrd=0&eslfdesc=0&eslfdtxt=0&eslfsize=0&eslfsizes=0&eslfsp=0&eslftens=0&eslftrmt=0&eslfyeld=0&eslfelon=0&eslfspec=0&eslfbspc=0&eslfchm=0&eslfmech=0&eslfapps=0&eslfelon2in=0&eslfelon2pr=0&eslfelon8in=0&eslfrwhd=0&eslfbrhd=0&eslfreda=0&eslfizod=0&eslfform=0&eslftitle=0&eslfbdsg=0&eslfmcom=0&eslfchry=0&eslfchri=0&eslfvchr=0&eslfm90cb=0&eslfmach=0&eslfcspd=0&eslfweld=0&eslftols=0&eslfforg=0&eslfhdng=0&eslfhtrt=0&eslfcarb=0&eslfcorr=0&eslftest=0&eslfannl=0&eslfbend=0&eslfnorm=0&eslftchr=0&eslftemp=0&eslfpnch=0&eslfshfc=0&eslfrtsc=0&eslfstrl=0&eslfsalt=0&eslfshapes=0&eslfpnum=0&eslgrps=Tube+%2B+Pipe&eslmtls=Carbon&eslm1=Chemistry&eslm2=Tensile&eslm3=Yield&eslm4=Rockwell+Hardness

I'll happily eat my words then :D But given this arguement we should all be using cold drawn 1018 seamless, which at a yield of 65,000 a tad over a 75% improvement. Now, granted there is an increase in strenght between HREW and DOM is it a cost effective improvement given the requirements in wheeling? That's the question.

Originally posted by coiled
Well with a good design and supports, why not PIPE! Cost you less and for rock crawling it's all you need if you don't care about weight, trail tested and approved!
:flipoff2: :flipoff2:


YEA!!!
and if you wait for you're shitter to brake down, you can use the pipe off of it!!

Just think of all the money you're saveing

make sure to rince the turds out first
:smokin: ericfilar@fatcity

Originally posted by mike


I'd happily eat my words then :D Cept its not 75% increase in yield its 58% comparing 1020 HREW to 1020 DOM. Which is significantly less than a 75% improvement. And for our purposes really a nominal improvement given that cages are most likely to be used at under 1mph anyway. Given this arguement we should all be using cold drawn 1018 seamless

Your right, Sy from 1020 HREW to 1020 DOM is a 58% increase. I was talking about the difference between 1010 HREW and 1020 DOM, which is what you can get. As I was typing this , the EMJ rep just walked in the door so I asked him what grade is commonly available, most of the HREW tubing out there is 1008-1010. So when you go down to your local metal supplier and buy HREW tubing, you are getting 1010, not 1020, and that is a 75% difference in yield strength to 1020 DOM.:)

Originally posted by mike


I'll happily eat my words then :D But given this arguement we should all be using cold drawn 1018 seamless, which at a yield of 65,000 a tad over a 75% improvement. Now, granted there is an increase in strenght between HREW and DOM is it a cost effective improvement given the requirements in wheeling? That's the question.

Most of the cages built for rock crawling should be fine made out of 1010 HREW, and that is the question, the other question is what are you getting at the steel supplier?

This forum is kind of nice, you can go back and edit your post when you change your mind.

Well, found .120 wall DOM tubing for $2.55 a foot if I buy 100 foot, and if I get more it would be a little cheaper, its only 15 min from my house too. 1.5" .o95 wall is $2.15 a foot for 100 feet.

Depdog:usa:

Originally posted by coiled
First, Pipe is for whoever wants to use it
Second, get a pipe bender it's hundred less!
Third, I've rolled HARD over backwards from a steep slope 15 feet up to flat packed road below and never split anything but maybe my gut when I impacted.
Fourth you can get pipe for a ton less than hrew, I've shopped around. The steel for my entire exo cost me less than $40. I trust my cage waaay more than many I've seen done on here. Use the "right" materials and still take your life or someone elses into your hands because you can't design a cage with sh_t! So don't tell me if I use hrew or DOM everything will be fine. I saw a guy roll over frontwards and it smashed his cage in a good two feet and he used that DOM! It's all about design, welds, and descent material.
I'm using tube now only because it is lighter, not for strength issues!
Just my tested experience and book knowledge though.:p
You must of hit real hard on that roll over because it shoved your head clean up your a$$.
If you want to use pipe for a cage go ahead, just don’t tell anybody. Definitely don’t come on a public forum and try and convince people it is a good idea. Oh and while your at it do us all a favor and have em cut off so you don’t pollute the gene pool.

Pipe is for smokin bud in. :smokin: Hopefully that is what you were doing right before you posted that message. You have been here since Jan of 2001 and have the balls to suggest a PIPE rollcage to someone? Are you for real or has your account been hacked by a moron?


Originally posted by coiled
Well with a good design and supports, why not PIPE! Cost you less and for rock crawling it's all you need if you don't care about weight, trail tested and approved!
:flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by GOAT1


Most of the cages built for rock crawling should be fine made out of 1010 HREW, and that is the question, the other question is what are you getting at the steel supplier?

This forum is kind of nice, you can go back and edit your post when you change your mind.

HAHA or realize that 1020 HREW is not likely what you'd get without ordering it :D or even more importantly.. have the caffeine kick in :D :beer: Either way, design far outweighs material IMHO. And the coolest thing about this type of forum is that things get talked out and things get learned

I'll be going with DOM tubing for my cage, whenever that will happen. But you can be damn sure I won't try to cut costs on something to protect me and my baby (read: truck)...

Good Stuff! :D

I'd rather pay a few extra $$$ on have a cage built with 2" 0.120" Wall DOM tubing anyday.

In a former life I ran SCCA Pro Rally's, and had to use a cage a few times to save my rear! Admitted rock crawling is a whole different game, but take a look at photo's of the Lion's back... if you go off that, you're doing more than 1 mph when you land!

Tin Bender -- ya, I also did quite a bit of tech inspection years back. I remember finding some JUNK tubing, tubing that was "thickened" in the region of the inspection hole (tap it with a screw driver and you found out that the 0.120" wall was more like 0.060" wall to save weight. Future Darwin award recieptant?) Best all time effort... and excellent looking weld, that just didn't look right. Ahem the nasty sub par welds were covered with BONDO to form a nice "ripple fillet". Now you know why you find SCCA tech inspectors with ice picks!

One trick to get a nice weld all the way around the tubing... Attach the "feet" of the bars last. Drill a 2" hole in the floor...drop the main hoop down a few inches to get it welded all the way around. Bring the hoop back up, slip the "feet" and weld in place. Sounds odd until you try it. Since most competitors might roll a vehicle, but reuse a cage... bolt in makes more sense!

For the lighter vehicles, i.e. Suzuki, you can use HREW if you go "up a step". i.e. 1.50" DOM, or 1.75" HREW. 0.120" wall for both. By the time you get 4500#, and usually are limited to 2" benders... go with DOM!

Tom :usa:

'79 FJ40
'84 Fj60 stock -- need to sell it
'92 240SX... beater, perfect for rally cross! :emb:
'02 2500HD Crew Cab... tow vehicle

Originally posted by Air Bag

You must of hit real hard on that roll over because it shoved your head clean up your a$$.


That's funny stuff.
ericfilar@fatcity

at the very bottom of this previously posted info is ROPS ( roll over protetcive structure)


http://www.emjmetals.com/emjonline/...ckwell+Hardness

it says astm A500, what is that?

Originally posted by roundrocktom
Good Stuff! :D

...but take a look at photo's of the Lion's back... if you go off that, you're doing more than 1 mph when you land!...



ERW, DOM, PIPE, Muffler Tube, no cage, whatever... you head off Lion's Back and it really wouldn't make much of a difference.

It would all end up as a jello strainer, and you're the jello.

I think that all cages should be made of 2 1/2" solid steel. :flipoff2:

1 3/4" .120 wall is completely adequate. 2" looks gay and that is that.

Pretty damn funny opinions. Seems like it is kind of like when everyone argued on what made up a good 4 link suspension and how some things that seemed all wrong from the book's perspective actually worked quite well in real life. I looked back on how schedule 80 pipe compared with that of the 1010 hrew and it just didn't seem to be that big of a difference. IN other words I thought the strength of schedule 80 was enough for me. I plan on wheeling in JV and Rubicon where you don't take serious falls like you would off of Lion's back or other places in Moab. I figured schedule 80 pipe was good enough. I had the misfortune of testing it out and it held up better than I thought it might. So hey if you want to spend the money on hrew or dom, fine, but I am not gunna condemn someone or say they have their head up their ass for using pipe when I know perfectly well it will hold up when designed/welded properly for most of the stuff rockcrawlers do. Someone seems to think that my knowledge began when I signed on here and that you only learn from what others have written on this board. To him I say whatever, knowledge and experience don't come from the number of posts you have or how long you have been on this board! So I make my links from schedule 80 pipe, I know others on this board that do as well (Lance to name one). Sue me, it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it no matter how dumb you think it is. I don't say you have your head up your ass for spending the money on DOM when I feel it is completely unnessesary, I guess I'd like the same respect. It's not like I am using exhaust tube like I have seen some try to use!

"I plan on wheeling in JV and Rubicon where you don't take serious falls like you would off of Lion's back or other places in Moab"

You obviously don't know what the top of Jack or Cadallac hill looks like. Its hard to go off the edge but it has happened.

Originally posted by coiled
It's not like I am using exhaust tube like I have seen some try to use!

That is true, but if you WERE one of those guys (or the morons that you sometimes see using PVC :eek: ) and you came in here saying it was badass, you would probably get banned. A little ribbing is just normal if your opinion is different...:p

Originally posted by Tin Bender
You guys kill me.......

You don't think twice about spending $1500 on a set of wheels and tires, but when it comes time to SAVE YOUR LIFE, you try and argue that PIPE is "strong enuff" and you SAVED a couple hundred bucks......:eek:

DO YOU FAIL TO SEE THE LOGIC????
If your gonna build something that is ment to SAVE YOUR LIFE shouldn't $$ be the least of your worries?


I love the story's of PIPE cages "hold'n up just fine"....
Do you, or have you ever wonder'd why NO SANCTION'D racing will allow PIPE??

PIPE IS FAR WEAKER than TUBE.....

And for the DOM is %75 stronger than HREW comment, PLEASE show some info that backs your statement... I would REALLY like to read it.....

Coil'd is right about the Design part, but why would you spend the TIME to build a cage from PIPE??:confused:

my inner cage is dom.... that is important.... my exterior shit is whatever the hell.....ya call the shit.... this is how sanctioned shit wants theres done... dom for drivercage, electric shiat for the rest.... i think thats fine.... it realy does come down to design

Last time I looked schedule 40 pipe had a yield stress of 35,000 psi, slightly lower than that of 1020 rew but equal to that of 1010 .120thick steel which everyone seems to think is safe for building cages out of. 2 inch schedule 80 pipe is gunna be way stronger than 1 3/4 .120 thick hrew tube. Pipe, which is erw, really only varies more in overall thickness, in other words the actual uniform thickness varies more in pipe than it does in hrew and hrew varies more than DOM. But you can compensate for that buy getting thicker pipe like schedule 80 or better as I have built my cage out of. Of course weight increases which is why I have gone to hrew welded seem tube. I don't mind opinions 44runner, but when people start telling me my life is in danger or I have my head up my ass that goes a bit beyond a dislike or humble opinion. There was a pretty good article by weldpro or nivloc sometime back but I can't find it.

http://www.usstubular.com/products/seamslp.htm

There is no arguement from me about Cage Design is the most important...

I have seen quite a few Black pipe cages hold up quite well.

The part that I still can't understand is WHY?
Why would you spend so many hours make'n something that IS made of black pipe?

Someone brought up the figure of $700.00 more for TUBE than PIPE...

Think about it...... Is your LIFE worth $700.00:confused:

Yeah, you MAY be just fine, and it MAY only "tweak" a little, and "stress" the welds a little.... But what about NEXT time...
Are you really gonna cut it all out, and start all over??

Probably not....."work'd just fine" (at least that time)

If your gonna Build it, build it right..With the right stuff...my.02

Originally posted by coiled
Last time I looked schedule 40 pipe had a yield stress of 35,000 psi, slightly lower than that of 1020 rew but equal to that of 1010 .120thick steel which everyone seems to think is safe for building cages out of. 2 inch schedule 80 pipe is gunna be way stronger than 1 3/4 .120 thick hrew tube. But you can compensate for that buy getting thicker pipe like schedule 80 or better as I have built my cage out of.


I don't understand your logic here??

"I'll just compensate for the weaker stuff by use'n bigger weak stuff"....

Correct me if I'm wrong:confused: