gonna convert to full hydo steering and i just got my char-lyn orbit valve from Howe performance. just wondering if anybody has a good lead on double ended 2.5 x 8" rams?

if so are you using this ram? do you like it? how did you mount it? and how much $ was it?

call up Northern Hydraulics. ridgidly mount the cylinder on the center part of the axle. they work rather well.

Originally posted by TrailRunner
call up Northern Hydraulics. ridgidly mount the cylinder on the center part of the axle. they work rather well.

ok whats their phone #

This month's issue of Petersen's 4 Wheel and OffRoad has a writeup on Mark Hanson's (part of the Wagoner Machine Shop crew) "Toyota." There is a real nice shot of how me mounted the same type of cylinder to his front end ... very slick.

Also, e-mail info@wagonermachine.com <info@wagonermachine.com> . Whomever answers their e-mail there has been awesome about getting back to me with prompt and precise answers to some questions that I had on their rigs. That person could surely tell ya'.

cmk

2x as many things to go wrong and nearly 2x the weight. I can see no reason to use one of those over a 2-way cylinder.

I was just talking to Jason at Tri-County Gear about this very thing. He just did that setup on his rig and has some great tips on setting up the ram and conecting rods.

Give him a call, 909-623-3373

www.northerntool.com

1.800.221.0516

They won't have much info, but their prices are hard to beat.

Originally posted by Patman
www.northerntool.com

1.800.221.0516

They won't have much info, but their prices are hard to beat.

unless i am missing something they don't have double ended cylinders

Originally posted by dirtrod
2x as many things to go wrong and nearly 2x the weight. I can see no reason to use one of those over a 2-way cylinder.

shall i just assume you are blowing stink out your hole?

Originally posted by camo


unless i am missing something they don't have double ended cylinders

Sometimes I found they have stuff that isn't in thier catalogs, or on thier site. Can't hurt to ask them. Might have to get a part number from Chief or another mfg. that they carry.

Originally posted by camo


shall i just assume you are blowing stink out your hole?

Assume whatever you want. Just offering a opinion.
If you want one of those big pieces of shit hanging off your rig, it makes no difference to me.
Try Baum hydraulics 800-228-9288 or surplus center 800-488-3407

Parker (800) 272-7537
The best stuff, they custom make it in 4 days, cost about $650 (double ended rams are ridiculously priced)

I heard that Howe (619) 561-7764 was making them for less.

I use a Parker 2'' by 8'' d.e. ram for the rear with a 1-3/8'' shaft.
It's very quick but stalls out too fast, not enough fluid volume.

The front has a d.e. ram from Avalanch Eng. ( don't know where they get it) it is also 2'' by 8'' but it only has a 1-1/4 shaft. The smaller shaft means more oil volume and unbelievable more power. Just something to think about.

Northern tool does not sell d.e. rams, too bad.
:smokin:

Sully and Sons in Bakersfield
Used them all the time setting up boat steering with doubled ended rams.



"shall i just assume you are blowing stink out your hole?"
Yes I think so

Originally posted by dirtrod

Just offering a opinion.
.
Try Baum hydraulics 800-228-9288 or surplus center 800-488-3407

ok i will bite how is their 2x more things to go wrong? because it has one more seal that a standard ram? :rolleyes: and twice the weight ? i guess i need enlightend because for the life of me i don't see how that is possible. please do us all a favor and add some legit tech info so we can all understand what you seem to know.

You got me, I haven't got any specs. on on them, and all I can go by is the setups I've seen... they looked awkward, and I don't see where they offer a advantage.
Maybe there are some better looking setups out there.
What makes them better than a single ended ?

Originally posted by dirtrod
You got me, I haven't got any specs. on on them, and all I can go by is the setups I've seen... they looked awkward, and I don't see where they offer a advantage.
Maybe there are some better looking setups out there.
What makes them better than a single ended ?

I can tell ya, and this is not my opinion. Its fact based experience.

Its gives a much more stable feel in the wheel

It allows better mounting options

It allows you to place it "directly" in line with your tie rod and with the right rod end link set up, it doesnt need to be parallel with the axle. Just like a rack and pinion set up.

Double pistons RULE!:flipoff2:

I called Wagoner.... they want $695 for the double ended ram thats on John's CJ8 or on Mark's Toyota. All the guys from Wagoner really know what they're talking about.. and they're REALLY REALLY helpful on the phone. Try asking for Casey.. great guy to deal with... they're building my hydraulic steering for me.. I went with 2 seperate rams... but I'm considering having them change it to one double ram... seems like it'd actually be less to screw up... at least my opinion.

i currently have a Howe performance double ended ram on order and will probally just stick with that. they are pretty spendy items at 500 buck each but i guess thats what it's gonna cost. considering he makes the ram specifically for a rock crawler and has figured out all the fluid flows and sizes needed to work for crawling as well as freeway speeds i will just have to get over it.

What did your orbital run through Howe? I am going full hydraulic and am trying to find the best supplier. :beer:

Camo - I PMd you earlier about it.

If you want a good double ended ram that has worked for Ant and I off-road on a Dana 60 and Toyota axle, then you could try one from Haldor. He is up in iceland and makes them for all the icelandic racers. I contacted him a long time ago because I was having the same locating and cost issues that everyone else is running into. He hooked me up with a great price out ther door with ram, rod ends, orbital valve, steering column, and metric to american hydraulic line adpaters. I am now drawing a blank at the total cost, but I want to believe around $633 delivered.... from ICELAND!!

Any way you choose is cool, but this is another option. It has been working great for Ant and I. The service from Haldor was great. All I had to do was tell him the stroke, and how many turns lock to lock I wanted..... oh yeah, and my Visa card #.

Email him at Haldor@Landvelar.is

-Sam

I'm not a big fan of the doubled ended rams...plus they're really expensive I thought?

What I'm considering doing on mine is using two single sided rams cross connected. This would get rid of the weird steering...like 3 turns to the right and 5 to the left. two rams together would make it the same throughout.

CJ

Originally posted by CJ Lagos
I'm not a big fan of the doubled ended rams...plus they're really expensive I thought?

What I'm considering doing on mine is using two single sided rams cross connected. This would get rid of the weird steering...like 3 turns to the right and 5 to the left. two rams together would make it the same throughout.

CJ
Double ended ram:
simple, elegant and expensive, no tie rod.

Single ended ram:
Using one ram has a biasing problem, using two rams takes more room and plumbing.
Less expensive but single ended rams need a tie rod.
:smokin:

Didn't look in to this myself, but a good friend did (will talk to him tommorow) He found a bunch of double ended rams, found on almost all backhoes ect. He got priced around $160 with out the TREs. Please note I have no idea where they are from or there size, I will post once I hear back. Hell I might be way off. Give me 24 hrs.

Oh my ! Thats plenty of money for a steering cylinder. I can gaurantee that I haven't seen one of those, must be sweet, and
I hope it works out. Is this going on a DD or something ?
I get about 3 turns lock to lock, and haven't noticed the bias at all while driving. The cyl. is right behind/above the axle and uses just over 4" of total stroke, so it's a real compact and fast. I added a manual cushion in the return side for better road manners.
The only screwy handling I notice comes from the lack of return to center, and the caster I've added to compensate... it causes the spindles to make a more pronounced up/down swing as it goes from lock to lock.
Well, like I said, I hope it works out...

if your running hydro assist you won't have an uneven number of turnd to one side versus the other, if anything all you'll notice is less assist the one direction, or a slightly slower response. Of course if you have more than enough power the one way, and way more than enough the other, will you only notice that one side is just more than enough??? Where the double ended cylinders are good is in full hydraulic steering, because of the rod on both sides of the piston they have equal displacement, and therefore have equal turns, and equal force to both sides.

If you want a good double ended ram that has worked for Ant and I off-road on a Dana 60 and Toyota axle, then you could try one from Haldor. He is up in iceland and makes them for all the icelandic racers. I contacted him a long time ago because I was having the same locating and cost issues that everyone else is running into. He hooked me up with a great price out ther door with ram, rod ends, orbital valve, steering column, and metric to american hydraulic line adpaters. I am now drawing a blank at the total cost, but I want to believe around $633 delivered.... from ICELAND!!

i tried his e-mail addresdoes not work, know any other way to get in touch with him

really interested

sam. yes i am gonna check him out thanks.

crazyhourse. uh ya your crazy. :D i have ram assist and am going full hydro

dirtrod. use my rig on a DD ? have you been living under a rock?
would you drive it on the street ?

Oh man. So sorry guys. Here is the correct email.

halldor@landvelar.is

-Sam

Originally posted by camo
crazyhourse. uh ya your crazy. :D i have ram assist and am going full hydro


I was trying to explain the advantage of a double ended ram to dirtrod, I think he was considering a hydro assist application...I'm looking at full hydro for my EB too, I'm just not sure that I want to give away the slight semblance of streetability it has now...

I can get load sensing Charlyn rotary valves for ~ $300(depending on exact specs). The valves allow the steering wheel to return to center much like a standard power steering system.

I can get columns for ~$50(depending on length, and provisions for wires) also from Charlyn.

PM me if you are interested.

Sean

Also forgot to mention that I can get a double ended 2 1/4" piston 8" stroke steering cylinder with spherical bearings on the ends, made by Arlington for $300.

I do not have a buisness, and am not a salesman. These are just deals that I can get, that I would like to pass onto others. If there is much interest I may be able to get them even a little bit cheaper.

Sean

Originally posted by CrazyHorse


I was trying to explain the advantage of a double ended ram to dirtrod, I think he was considering a hydro assist application...I'm looking at full hydro for my EB too, I'm just not sure that I want to give away the slight semblance of streetability it has now...

CrazyHorse...thanks for the info, but I was talking about full hydro. I've had it for a couple years.
I was just saying that I don't notice any difference between right or left, so, as you said... It must be adequate.

Camo...If it's not a DD...Why spend $500 on a fawkin cylinder ?
My shit ain't that bad on the street, I've been over 80mph
:eek: :eek: :eek: ...which was kind of exciting...But in the dirt, it's fantastic at any speed...
I need to see some pics. of these things installed, I must be thinking of something else, because I don't see a good place to hang it on my pos...I gots no room for anything else other than what I have...and it just fits...

Here is the double ended ram found on John Reynolds Bronco(The awesome Fat City Bronco).
http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/more5.jpg

See.... attractive mounting, and no tie rod.

Sean

That looks nice...What keeps it from getting smashed or bent ?

Man...All this talk has me thinking full hydro again...Now, let me ask those that are either considering the mod, or already have it, would you go to the stock tie-rod location on the knuckles or would you trust your high steer arms on top? I'm thinking lower mounts 100%.

--D

dirtrd,
i seen the way the guy from wagoneer machine shop mounted his
vey nicely done, i agree with your assesment of the one from above, although nice it sure look like it will take a beating

guys i sent an e-mail to the guy in iceland, when i get a response i will post it

any photo's on how to mount would be nice, i really want to do this

Originally posted by RockRover
Man...All this talk has me thinking full hydro again...Now, let me ask those that are either considering the mod, or already have it, would you go to the stock tie-rod location on the knuckles or would you trust your high steer arms on top? I'm thinking lower mounts 100%.

--D

I went to the hi steer arms...Not skeerd (got spare knucks),
I'll have to see how long the upper balljoints hold-up. I go inside the cylinder and makes some stops, so it bottoms just as the steering stops hit the knuckles, I think that will help, I have a pressure relief valve right after the pump also.

Originally posted by dirtrod


I went to the hi steer arms...Not skeerd (got spare knucks),
I'll have to see how long the upper balljoints hold-up. I go inside the cylinder and makes some stops, so it bottoms just as the steering stops hit the knuckles, I think that will help, I have a pressure relief valve right after the pump also.

Pic's? How did you make stops inside? the cylider? Man, maybe I'll reconsider this mod again...

Rockrover...I'm pic-less...sorry

You can stop it anyway you want, depending on what you need. The last time I welded a 3/4" nut on the end of the piston and threaded a chopped off bolt into it to stop the retraction, then I put a piece of alum tube on the other side of the piston (over the rod), when that alum hits the gland (endcap) it stops the extension...real basic chit.

Originally posted by Station
Here is the double ended ram found on John Reynolds Bronco(The awesome Fat City Bronco).
http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/more5.jpg


Sean

So thats were I put my coffee down!

Originally posted by dirtrod
That looks nice...What keeps it from getting smashed or bent ?

I guess it would bend if I plowd into something going fast in reverse, but it's all stout stuff. The shaft dia. is 1-3/8'', tie rods are solid and lots of cromo. I thought about a guard or bumper and might do it someday, but it will make it ugly I think.

Did I mention It's mounted 22'' from the trail?

Yea, it should be fine, just keep it in mind.
I need my chit protected pretty good because of the slippery stuff I try to climb, you never know when you are gonna get slapped off a rock, or just plain back into something trying to get another line... I've smashed alot of diff. covers. :)

you run portals on those dif covers you smash?

how come bill vista aint on here shouting the evils of welding steering knuckles?

No portals for me...I like it simple and light. I beefed up the covers, now I can smash into anything I want.

Funny thing about portals, just drive straight through the trail.
It almost takes the fun out it, almost. :D

one of the things i hope to be able to acomplish is mounting the steering ram behind the axle with no linkage out in front to get smashed.

Originally posted by Station
Here is the double ended ram found on John Reynolds Bronco(The awesome Fat City Bronco).
http://www.pirate4x4.com/ubb/uploads/more5.jpg

See.... attractive mounting, and no tie rod.

Sean

Damn i'm a good photographer.

Definitely the way to go. With top mounted steering arms, I was able to fit the ram within the 4-link bars perfectly. This is what the Icelandic ram looks like on my Toyota front axle.

http://www.rivercityrockcrawlers.com/BBSups//w0052.jpg

-Sam

Originally posted by camo
one of the things i hope to be able to acomplish is mounting the steering ram behind the axle with no linkage out in front to get smashed.

I wanted to mount them inboard too and in fact the front was done that way originally. But radical bends would have been needed in the suspension arms, so I bagged the idea and stuck them outboard.

i am running leaf springs up front so i hope i can tuck it back there with out too much rebuilding of my exhaust and oil pan.

Definitly do inboard if you can.
It also looks a lot cleaner.

Yeah, clearance was definitely a concern as I built mine. It actually hit the pulley at first. I then moved the front axle forward with the 4 link design and I had no problems after that. The ram would clear the front pulley by about an inch if it compressed that high. I don't jump my truck, so I am all good.

Do you have any pics of your springs/axle in relation to your engine? I haven't seen your new rig, so I am curious to see what you are working with.

-Sam

OK here is that cheaper double ended ram I mentioned. Belive it or not it's from Boyce Eqp. $149. I have no idea how it works but it is the one they use on their 2.5 ton rears. The guy I talked to said that he thought that they were 2.5"x 8". There it is take it for what it is worth. If anyone cares here is their #1-800-748-4269.

www.baileynet.com

TONS of rams from 60$ to 600$

I made a high steer arm to mount my cylinder too, then I just put the tie rod on top of the stock location. I don't have any room to bring the tie rod up. I made a sleeve to slide over my ram to limit the contraction(only needed 7" of travel) and then just centered it up from there. I'll be running a double ended setup when I get my hybrid front axle done and I'll also be running a double ended in the rear. I'm going to be mounting the ram itself up high with the connecting rods coming down on an angle to keep it out of harms way. That pic of the Bronco is sweet, just don't understand why he didn't raise the cylinder up and flip the heims on the connecting rods vertical. Are those cro-mo connecting rods?

Easy

redruM
www.baileynet.com
TONS of rams from 60$ to 600$

Baily can custom build any cylinder that you want. I had them quote a 2" bore double ended cylinder recently. The first time though with a mounts welded to both ends (of the cylinder) was about $600 ea if bought two. Second time they looked at it without mounts about $300 each. Of course without mounts would require some type of clamp mount.

I bet that a group buy would kick ass on this one since they are custom built. I need two for my two rockwells!

I also looked through their catalog and I think that $140 ea worth of parts I could build my own and be almost bolt together with only minor machining to the piston and buying grade 8 allthread to keep the glands on. I have the part numbers at work if anyone needs for the components. Email

bmsn123@hotmail.com

The rams that I mentioned above for $300(2.25"bore 8" stroke) are non custom, have mounts already on the ends(They call the mounting tabs "feet"), and have heim joints for rod ends.

Let me know if you are interested in these, cause maybe we can get them cheaper if I price 10 of them rather than just my 1.

Also the load sensitive (Has return to center) Charlyn rotary valve is a steal at $300.

Let me know if you are interested, because I would like to get these parts cheaper for myself, but I am only needing 1 of each.

Thanks
Sean

Originally posted by JR


I guess it would bend if I plowd into something going fast in reverse, but it's all stout stuff. The shaft dia. is 1-3/8'', tie rods are solid and lots of cromo. I thought about a guard or bumper and might do it someday, but it will make it ugly I think.

Did I mention It's mounted 22'' from the trail?

JR, you say the rod dia is 1 3/8".... how big is the cylinder bore?

cause if it's 2", 1 3/8" subtracted from 2" net's a sq dim of
1.77 sq" multiplied by 1500PSI, you get 2655 pounds of force
pushing......if you divide that by two (one tire is being pushed,
the other is being pulled) you get 1327 pounds of force per tire.

wow... and I thought the numbers weren't gonna look very impressive........

Are my calculations correct?? is that cylinder a 2" bore?
Are those cylinder ends custom made?? they look nice.
what size heims are those attaching on the cyl ends??

BTW, that is one pimp ride you've got there........hat's off....

--Sherpa

Originally posted by SHERPA RIG


JR, you say the rod dia is 1 3/8".... how big is the cylinder bore?

cause if it's 2", 1 3/8" subtracted from 2" net's a sq dim of
1.77 sq" multiplied by 1500PSI, you get 2655 pounds of force
pushing......if you divide that by two (one tire is being pushed,
the other is being pulled) you get 1327 pounds of force per tire.

wow... and I thought the numbers weren't gonna look very impressive........

Are my calculations correct?? is that cylinder a 2" bore?
Are those cylinder ends custom made?? they look nice.
what size heims are those attaching on the cyl ends??

BTW, that is one pimp ride you've got there........hat's off....

--Sherpa

your right on the dimensions, it was a mistake. I should have gotten a 2-1/4 or 2-1/2 bore. Parker does make a 2-1/2 bore but I didn't know that until after the 2'' it was ordered. I'm embarrassed to say that I've spent a lot of money on mistakes. The ends are custom by Axle Jack and they are 3/4-3/4.

I saw those numbers too when the ram was ordered.
But it's hard to determine abstract numbers in real world wheeling.

hey guys i told i would let you know when i got a response back, this is the answer i received today, will keep you posted


this is a cut and copy from my e-mail

I'm sorry about the delay of my answer. I have been in Italy over the
last 10 days and not seen my e-mail.

I will send you a offer in the beginning of next week.

Regards


Halldór Klemenzson
halldor@landvelar.is

Landvélar ehf.
Smiðjuvegur 66
200 Kópavogur
Iceland

Tel +354-557-6600
Fax +354-557-8500

Originally posted by dirtrod
That looks nice...What keeps it from getting smashed or bent ?

I would guess it doens't get scratched or bent because he's got 9"/Unimog hybrid axles. With the portals that steering setup is probably sitting where the top of our diffs would be. Man everytime i see a pic of part of that bronco i want it more.

-Steve

hey guys this is the response i just received
what do you think of the prices




Hi!

At last I'm ready with a offer to you on the Double ended hydro ram.
In this offer I include the Orbital valve and adaptors both for the valve
and the cylinder.
All prices are Exworks in Iceland. The transport cost varies with how you
want it shipped. The cost for door to door service is Apr. 200 USD and I
recommend to use TNT, UPS or DHL.

Double ended Hydraulic cylinder with 8" stroke 50mm (2") bore and 35mm (1
3/8") rod and with adaptors for 3/4" JIC.
Price 350 USD

Rodends for cylinder (set of 2 pcs.)
Price 80 USD

Obital valve with adaptors for 3/4" JIC.
Price 290 USD


The orbital valve in this offer gives you 4 turns on the steeringwheel.

I hope this is a interesting offer for you and to hear from you soon.

Regards

Halldór Klemenzson
halldor@landvelar.is

Landvélar ehf.
Smiðjuvegur 66
200 Kópavogur
Iceland

Tel +354-557-6600
Fax +354-557-8500

This is what I received from him sans the beaten up cooler.

http://www.sierrarockcrawlers.com/images2/w0045.jpg

It has worked great in all situations. Ant also runs it on his Dana 60 while I run mine on a Toyota mini. Both work well.

-Sam