wall winching pics and tips [Archive]

92xj

02-22-2002, 09:27 AM

Now for tips and techniques, since the pros haven’t answered that part yet.

1. As to weight ratings, from what I gather the rated weights on winches apply to dead weight, so a M8000 theoretically could lift 8000 pounds up a smooth wall. HOWEVER, the least bit of bouncing and jarring on a hanging jeep (which is unavoidable) will result in effective peak weights much greater than the dead weight of the jeep. Since my jeep weighs 3500-4000 lbs, I’d be a little nervous with my M8000 but it would probably be okay as long as I go slow and easy. If I’m gonna do much of this I ought to upgrade to a 12k winch.

2. The winch brake and the cable strength should be okay too with the same caveats as above. A snatch block would NOT double the hanging strength.

3. When hanging at 80&deg the jeep is going to be very tippy from side to side so I’ll need to pick a path that keeps both sides fairly level. In the Kansas pic above it looks like it spun and all those guys on the tow strap are trying to straighten it.

4. It looks like a good path needs to have a nicely rounded bottom and top to it, like the Arizona waterfall. The bottom, so you can point the nose up before running out the cable and get a clean approach. The top, so you don’t get pinned against the crest where the cable won’t rise.

5. I really don’t want to be inside while the jeep is going up, but it looks like a little gas at the right time on the crest could help the cable rise if I’m having trouble at that point. Possibly I could run a line to the throttle under the hood and leave my auto in gear on the way up, then tug on the line if need be. (Yeah, it’ll be fun catching it after it gets up – very low gear so it goes slow.) Alternatively, I could disable the shifter lock and have a line on the shifter to pull it into gear.

6. Based on another thread on here, there could be engine trouble tilted so far for more than a few seconds. If the motor dies, battery power alone will probably get me up, but I should calculate how far that will go and leave enough margin for powering back down if I don’t make it. And have a spare battery to start the jeep.

7. As for cable placement, the anchor will need to be very sturdy and preferably a good bit higher than the crest of the wall. If the crest is rounded good I probably wont need any protection for the cable, but a log or two under it at the right places wouldn’t hurt so long as it won’t interfere with my exit path when the jeep is coming over the crest.

8. Cable piling up in one spot on the spool or getting caught in the rollers could be a serious problem. I’m not sure how to handle this, except to practice and plan the approach to minimize the negative effect. Rope cable might be better than steel for piling up, and a hawse better than rollers if I’m using a rope cable.

BillaVista

02-22-2002, 10:05 AM

HOWEVER, the least bit of bouncing and jarring on a hanging jeep (which is unavoidable) will result in effective peak weights much greater than the dead weight of the jeep. Since my jeep weighs 3500-4000 lbs, I’d be a little nervous with my M8000 but it would probably be okay as long as I go slow and easy. If I’m gonna do much of this I ought to upgrade to a 12k winch.

Not quite. But correct idea. In actual fact, a "bouncing" type load can easily place many many (exponentialy) times the normal loads worth of strain on the cable. The resulting "shock loading" can very easily break a cable. Nothing you can do about it other than not shock-loading the cable, as you can't upgrade to a cable strong enough.

An example, a brit Helo crew found out the hard way, and a crewan lost his life, when a man was attached to the winch with a 4000lb rated aircraft cable, but this 200lb guy slipped in the back and fell a foot or 2, and broke the cable, falling to his death.

Be careful out there!

Gordon

02-22-2002, 01:10 PM

the way winches are rated is pulling a rolling load up a 15 degree slope so a 8000 lb winch could theoretically dead lift 8000 * sin(15) or 2070 lbs, but for safety reasons they don't recomend overhead lifting with them. Also a winch that is rated at 8000 lb "intermitant load" actually stalls at closser to 12000 lbs.

BillaVista

02-22-2002, 03:45 PM

Gordon,

Good point.

The data plate on my brand new (to me - built in '87) Warn 8274 (8000lb) states

"when used to raise or lower a load the following recommended safe working loads should not be exceeded

1/4 cable single line 1500 lb
1/4 cable double line 3000 lb
1/4 cable triple line 4500 lb

5/16 cable single line 2000 lb
5/16 cable double line 4000 lb
5/16 cable triple line 6000 lb

Which is unusual and impressive in itself, because, as Gordon mentioned, rating something for overhead lifting makes you HUGELY liable, and isn't often done.

Anyone know if the newer 8274 still have this printed on them?

92xj

02-22-2002, 05:01 PM

Yes, that is good info. Here I was ready to use my baby M8000 to deadlift my XJ. So, since the 8274’s ratings are double with a snatch block, that seems to be saying that the brake is not the limiting factor, since it would still have to bear the full weight. Also, higher ratings for a bigger cable imply that cable strength is a limiting factor. I thought 5/16th aircraft cable had a weight rating of well over 8,000 lbs. That would imply a shock multiplier of like 5-10x. I know there will be a big safety margin built into any published figures but I think you’d want a big safety margin for this kind of thing anyway.

So, for those who have done this, what rated winch did you use and how much does the vehicle weigh?

morgan

02-22-2002, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by Mo

Can you possibly make those images any larger??? :mad:

http://www.birfield.com/~morgan/mad.gif

BillaVista

02-22-2002, 07:57 PM

Morgan,

That is WAAAY too cool!

can you do that to some more, so that I can print them actual size on some sticky paper and stick 'em on my toolbox, rig, etc??

Like, for instance:

:flipoff2: :smokin: :rasta: :clown: :bender:

Hillarious...

Oh, and TJ....maybe you should quit the NRA and join a photgraphy club...sheesh - ever heard of lighting or focus!:flipoff2:

willymutt

02-22-2002, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by 92xj
Here's the first batch, thanks to Arizona. There's one of those tube things scaling a dry waterfall.

Two pics below, go here for more:
http://www.azrockcrawler.com/_images/2001/11-01nextlevel/11-01nextlevel.html

http://www.azrockcrawler.com/_images/2001/11-01nextlevel/nextlevel20.jpg

http://www.azrockcrawler.com/_images/2001/11-01nextlevel/nextlevel9.jpg

Those pics were after the Warn event this last year. Tracy Jordan led the top competitors on that ride. His is the FJ first in line. Notice the nice flame job on the skid plate of the orange buggy. That is Jason Paule. He has now worked on 3 of those rigs in the pics. Tracy's, the other FJ with the purple paint and his own buggy. Way cool.

Erin

92xj

02-22-2002, 09:54 PM

Here's some data on cable strength. The SWL numbers came from a NOAA ship website, and the breaking strength numbers came from a guy who works for a company that tests GAC (who, incidentally, says that cable doesn't whiplash when it breaks, unless it's rigged incorrectly). Several sources say that Safe Working Load numbers are about 1/5th the breaking strength, which is a pretty hefty safety margin.

Wire Rope
Diameter ----- Safe Working Load ----- Breaking Load
1/4 " 1,300 lbs. 5,500
5/16 " 2,000 lbs. 8,500
3/8 " 3,000 lbs. 12,000
7/16 " 4,000 lbs. 17,000
1/2 " 5,000 lbs. 24,000
5/8 " 7,000 lbs. 39,000

I haven't found anything yet on winch lifting capacity. Gordon's 25% of rated pulling capacity sounds right based on his explanation, but I was trying to find somebody who might have tested it. I'm not really doubting you, Gordon, I'm just disappointed. Hell, even a good mudhole can cause 2000 lbs of suction, seems like.

All-in-all, it looks like safe winching a 4000-lb XJ would take a 15K winch and 7/16" cable. A little riskier setup, but still probably okay if I go REAL easy, would be a 10K winch with 3/8" cable and a snatch block (and good insurance). Using a snatch block, though, means a moving cable so it will have to be shielded from abrasion.

BTW, here's the cable tester guy's website, he's got some other interesting info on here. http://home.gci.net/~trey/cable.html

Travis Waldher

02-22-2002, 10:19 PM

Originally posted by 92xj
Now for tips and techniques, since the pros haven’t answered that part yet.

2. The winch brake and the cable strength should be okay too with the same caveats as above. A snatch block would NOT double the hanging strength.

Ok, explain this one to me.

When you winch with a snatch block back to yourself you double your winches single line pull rated capacity. So... why would the winch care wether you are pulling horizontal vs verticle? :confused:

92xj

02-22-2002, 10:49 PM

Originally posted by twaldher

Ok, explain this one to me.

When you winch with a snatch block back to yourself you double your winches single line pull rated capacity. So... why would the winch care wether you are pulling horizontal vs verticle? :confused:

Although the pull strength is doubled, the amount of weight you can lift will be the lower of 3 things - the pull (motor) strength, the cable strength and the brake strength. My thought there is that the brake would be the limiting factor. On a horizontal or inclined surface, the braking strength needed is nowhere near the pulling strength needed. On a vertical pull, the whole weight of the jeep is hanging on the brake.
However, reading further down the post, the Warn numbers Billavista quotes imply that the brakes are not the limiting factor, so in that case a snatch block would increase the capacity. But, on second thought, the snatch block might even double the brake strength, in which case, conceivably, its possible I could be wrong. But hopefully you got tired of reading this long-winded answer sometime before now so that you won't see that admission.

Travis Waldher

02-23-2002, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by 92xj

Although the pull strength is doubled, the amount of weight you can lift will be the lower of 3 things - the pull (motor) strength, the cable strength and the brake strength. My thought there is that the brake would be the limiting factor. On a horizontal or inclined surface, the braking strength needed is nowhere near the pulling strength needed. On a vertical pull, the whole weight of the jeep is hanging on the brake.
However, reading further down the post, the Warn numbers Billavista quotes imply that the brakes are not the limiting factor, so in that case a snatch block would increase the capacity. But, on second thought, the snatch block might even double the brake strength, in which case, conceivably, its possible I could be wrong. But hopefully you got tired of reading this long-winded answer sometime before now so that you won't see that admission.

Too late I read the entire thing.... pull strength be it verticle or horizontal.. the winch shouldn't care. If the winches rated stall capacity is 9,500lbs single line. double line its rated stall is 19,000lbs. BECAUSE the winch with a snatch block running back to the same vehicle will still only see about 9,500lb, the hook on the jeep 9,500lb, the eye on the snatch block 19,000lb.

Winch ratings: For warn.. their smaller trailer winches are rated for pulling X at a Y grade. their vehicle winches are stall rated for their full pull power on their last wrap regardless of grade. At least that is my understanding of them.

92xj

02-23-2002, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by twaldher

Too late I read the entire thing.... pull strength be it verticle or horizontal.. the winch shouldn't care. If the winches rated stall capacity is 9,500lbs single line. double line its rated stall is 19,000lbs. BECAUSE the winch with a snatch block running back to the same vehicle will still only see about 9,500lb, the hook on the jeep 9,500lb, the eye on the snatch block 19,000lb.

Now I never said I doubted the snatch block would double the PULL strength, it's the HANGING strength that I doubted. And while I conceded the possibility that I might be wrong, you still haven't proved that I am, so you got a little more work to do. Pull strength has to do with the motor, but hanging strength has to do with the brake and the cable. Let's say the brake strength was the same as the pull strength, 8000 lbs on a 15&deg slope or 2070 lbs deadlift. If you double the cable and one end is clipped to the front tow shackle, how much force is pulling against the winch brake? True, there are two strands now, but only one is connected to the brake and you've still got the full weight of the vehicle pulling on it (since the other strand goes through a freely turning pulley).

Originally posted by twaldher

Winch ratings: For warn.. their smaller trailer winches are rated for pulling X at a Y grade. their vehicle winches are stall rated for their full pull power on their last wrap regardless of grade. At least that is my understanding of them.

Now this is what I thought at first, too, but it doesn't agree with Gordon says above, and this is the most critical part of the whole equation. I don't know Gordon but it doesn't sound like he pulled the 15% grade out of his ass, so he had to have some basis for it. I searched about 2 hours last night hunting for this without luck. I'm sending emails to Warn and Ramsey to see what they say, but I wouldn't be surprised if Gordon is right. It's all this marketing shiznit (I like that word, Mo) - just like our 4-wheel-drive vehicles are really 2-wheel-drive, our 8K winches are probably really 2K winches.

BTW, Gordon, one thing I did find is that Warn says the stall rating on their winches EQUALS the rated pulling strength (on their FAQ page). And while I couldn't find the same thing on the Ramsey site, I found a maillist post where somebody said Ramsey winches are stronger than Warn because Ramsey's stall ratings exceed the quoted pull rating while Warn's are the same. I'm asking about this in my emails too.

Travis Waldher

02-23-2002, 09:45 AM

Ok... lets start with the winch rating. I believe ALL Warn winches are rated at their "true" stall speed. e.g. hs9500i will stall at 9500lb pull. Now.. depending on charging systems, etc. when some people in my club did a test (one guy used to have a accurate device to do this) before these newer style winches came out. None of the Warn winches pulled at their full stall. the closest was a 8274 that pulled around 7,000lb, the m8000 was something like 6500, but that was the worst it got. The Ramsey (and I think milemarker), while a SLOW winch pulled closest to its max before stalling. granted I can't remember if they were on the last wrap or second to last wrap. :rolleyes:

Now, looking at Warns charts to prove Gordon wrong (sorry man). We'll start with the trailer winches, starting here because they have a nice rolling load chart. A T2500, a 2500# winch is rated at a 2500# load. on the *last* wrap. Here is this winches rated pulls:

http://www.warn.com/InternetHome/products/Winches/winchT2500.shtm

Now, looking elsewhere on their site they give you a chart that explains shows the rolling load capacity of each winch based on the % grade. So that same 2500# winch has the ability to pull a 12,500# rolling load up a 10% grade on the last wrap on the drum. Here is their chart:

http://www.warn.com/InternetHome/products/Winches/HoToChooseTrailer.shtm

Now on to the vehicle winch ratings. Taking what we just learned with the chart up above.. just look at the specs.. the rated line pull on a hs9500i for example is 9,500# on the LAST wrap. Now on the first wrap it is only 2,000lb. SO, if Gordon is right and the winch ratings were based on a 15% grade, and I quote gordon:

"the way winches are rated is pulling a rolling load up a 15 degree slope so a 8000 lb winch could theoretically dead lift 8000 * sin(15) or 2070 lbs, but for safety reasons they don't recomend overhead lifting with them. Also a winch that is rated at 8000 lb "intermitant load" actually stalls at closser to 12000 lbs."

That same hs9500i has a 9500# load rating on wrap #1 (last wrap), so per his calculations the "real" stall rating, e.g. dead lift rating for example. My winch could only pull 9500 * sin(15) = 2458#. Not very usefull on the trail IMO. A stuck up against a rock I would have to winch and force my tire up and over would easily exceed that on a admittedly heavy 4800# YJ.

The winch doesn't care wether it is pulling straight or overhead, does not affect rated stall. So.. if you placed a 8,000lb block of steel below your winch and lifted it up it would pick that up just as easily as a block of steel on wheels being pulled up a 15% grade weighing in at 33,600# (I used warns chart for that figure, didn't feel like dusting off my algebra books)

Without word back from the manufacturers.. I don't think I can prove this further without a gauage to measure lb's up to 10,000 and get my winch to stall out on it.

92xj

02-23-2002, 09:55 AM

Good info, dude. See if you can get some details on that test your club did, I'd rather see that than anything the manufacturers say. I'll post their replies when I get them.

Travis Waldher

02-23-2002, 10:05 AM

Well.. now the snatchblock:

Ok.. this diagram (no makin fun of my art)

http://www.pnw4x4.net/images/temp/snatchblock.jpg

that is how the loading on a snatch block works. So... lets just say you are right for a second and somehow those 19,000lbs of force are applied to the winch brake. But you did say the winch could pull it since the same loads are being applied. Since there isn't another winch on the other side of that cable pulling too. (you see where I am getting at?) that would be a 19,000lb load being placed on the winch, winch mount, drum.. and more importantly that 5/16" wire rope rated at 14,400lbs. Yess.. the cable would snap even if everythign else survived that kind of pull on the winches end.

My point.. the rated pull on a double line is 19,000lb. Because the load is being distributed evenly between the cable, winch and tow hook. The brake rating would be the same since the physics in place for the pull haven't changed. the load is STILL distrubeted evenly beteween the winch and tow hook. e.g. 9500lb. So.. even while the snatch block (in a perfect 180degree situation) would see a load of 19,000lb. the winch drum, brake, etc. are still only seeing a load of 9,500lb.

Travis Waldher

02-23-2002, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by Land Crusher
rumor is some one had to get ther 4x4
winched out of a lake near the rubicon
last year.

OVER 80 FEET DEEP (smile)

But I dont think any one will post pics

rumor? wasn't rumor I saw pics of it somewhere in the water. (something about a parking brake failing while people were in camp)

I just wish someone would have posted the pics of the extraction. I mean damn.. thats value for you money when it came time to pay the $1 tow fee. Consdering at least 2 winch rigs, at least another 2 rigs to strap to those, a scuba diver, etc.

I heard though that they bascially refilled the fluids and it started and drove off the trail.

Gordon

02-23-2002, 10:52 PM

When that Toyota rolled into Spider lake, I was camped next to that group, I wasn't there for the rescue though.

Please prove me wrong Twaldher I want my HS 9500i to pull more than a few thousand pounds too. but since it has 5/16 cable and the breaking strength of that 5/16 aircraft cable is less than 9500 lbs I sure don't think it can pull that hard. I would rather have my winch stall than snap cable. Also the strength of a cable is significantly reduced when it is forced to make a sharp bend, like around a clevis or even a snatch block pulley.
for the intermittent load ratings being different than stall ratings Look in a Summit catalog of the Superwinch X9 it says it is rated at 9000lbs and stalls at 11900 lbs

That said all of this is BS. what your winch can pull is gonna depend on how many layers of cable condition of the battery/alternator how hot the winch motor is how hard the cable is rubbinbg on something etc, so who cares how much it can theoretically lift. Just buy the biggest fastest one they make, make sure it is mounted good and solid (those 4 3/8 grade 5 bolts would be kinda sketchy for 9500 lbs)then throw a snatch block in the tool box and go use it, but be safe. I got a HS9500i because on the trail it pretty much comes down to that and a 8274 for speed and power, and the 9500 fit better.

Travis Waldher

02-24-2002, 12:29 AM

Actually those 4 3/8" grade 5 bolts that hold the winch on its mounting plate. Are plenty. Grade 8 would be a waste.. a couple reasons... 1) typically a winch will produce a shear force against the bolt. not a pulling force against the bolt head. So while Grade 8 would still be ok for this.. grade 5 would probably last just as long, itd just stretch first.

2) do you really think the case of the winch is stronger than that grade 5 bolt?

This is one area I don't think Grade 8 is really necessary. but run it if you want to.

92xj

02-24-2002, 04:19 AM

Originally posted by twaldher
Well.. now the snatchblock:
….the load is STILL distrubeted evenly beteween the winch and tow hook…

All right, I think you’ve convinced me on the winch brake issue, using a snatch block doubles that as well because the tow hook is bearing half the weight. The trailer hitches also are a good argument for the other thing – the best warn 3500 pound trailer winch sells for about $400, and it can pull 15,000 pounds up a 15% grade, so it doesn’t make sense for an $800 HS9500i to have less capacity. I’m still curious to see what the manufacturers say, and I’d really like to see some real world tests.

So it looks like you’re right on both points – but don’t get a SWELLED HEAD over it, cuz you’re a marked man – Gordon and I are both gunning for you now. Naw, you know I’m just kidding. I could care less if I’m right going into a discussion like this, the goal is to know more coming out, and I’ve learned a lot on this topic.

And I think all this theory means a lot in the real world. I like the shit out of my M8000 winch. It’s cheap, light, low profile and it’s always got me out of trouble. But it’s weak, so I want to know how to make the most of it. I may have to get a bigger one if I get into waterfall climbing, but I’ll want to make the most of that one too.

BillaVista

02-24-2002, 05:40 AM

So while Grade 8 would still be ok for this.. grade 5 would probably last just as long, itd just stretch first.

Umm, do you want to explain this, because it sounds suspiciously like you're going to fall into the common misconception trap.

note for all: My Warn catologues are filled (on every page) with little warnings about not using the winch as a hoist. Might just be a liability thing ?

92xj

02-24-2002, 06:05 AM

Originally posted by BillaVista

note for all: My Warn catologues are filled (on every page) with little warnings about not using the winch as a hoist. Might just be a liability thing ?

Yeah, mine too. I think it's part a liability thing and part true. You know, they make industrial "people winches" that have to meet far stricter standards than any other kind of winch, including our RV winches. There are a lot of ways winching can go wrong and injure or even kill people. It's true for all types of winching but certainly more true for this kind of stuff. I think with sufficient knowledge and planning those risks can be managed, but I think you're right to bring this up.

But I still want to be able to look up and say, "I wish my jeep was up there" and make it happen.

white knight

02-24-2002, 08:46 AM

Excellent Thread,

Thanks for the info.

Travis Waldher

02-24-2002, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by BillaVista

Umm, do you want to explain this, because it sounds suspiciously like you're going to fall into the common misconception trap.

note for all: My Warn catologues are filled (on every page) with little warnings about not using the winch as a hoist. Might just be a liability thing ?

Well.. strictly concerning this thread and nothing else. The casing of the winch that the bolt goes through to bolt the winch down to the mounting surface. I highly doubt that casing is any stronger than a Grade 5 bolt. (It does not look like mild steel even, too light for that) So lets just say you get in to a situation where somehow the pull on the winch exceeded 50,000lb or something like that. The grade 5 bolt would theoritcally go first and the winch would be ripped off the jeep. But the winch itself would be fine. Use a grade 8 bolt in its place, I am willing to bet that the winch would come off the winch mount if not at the same time but very shortly after the breaking point of a grade 5 bolt. Only difference you just destroyed your winch's casing. Much harder to fix. :) (assuming your alive at that point to care :D )

I use Grade 8 on just about everything, but on the bolts that hold my winch down I still use Grade5. I personally didn't feel it was worth finding a grade 8 square nut.

aaronlosey

02-24-2002, 10:01 AM

ok, who saw the gods must be crazy when they winched that landrover straight up into a tree? :D

so in other words, it can be done, i saw it in a movie once. ;)

BillaVista

02-24-2002, 10:35 AM

I use Grade 8 on just about everything, but on the bolts that hold my winch down I still use Grade5. I personally didn't feel it was worth finding a grade 8 square nut.

OK - loud and clear now. Good point, think I will follow suit. BTW - don't know if I've ever seem a grade 8 square nut?

but I think you're right to bring this up.

Well, I have some experience with the winch we use on the helicopter to winch people out of the sea when they're having a bad day. As you say, the certifications are HUGE and the cost to match ...I think we pay anout a quarter mill a pop. The coolest thing they have is a archimedes screw type gear (worm gear?) in fromt of the drum with a little hawse mounted on it through which the cable passes. as cable reels in or out it travels back and forth across the drum, ensuring perfect wrapping every time. The winch is hydraulicly powered and electronicly controlled. Only good for a couple thousand pounds (max operational load is 600 lbs due to possible g force etc.) but it'll do 200 feet a minute fully loaded !

The best thing is the groovy spring buffered, double throated, lighted hook though!

Home Built

02-24-2002, 11:21 AM

First of all let me say that this was a great thread to read on and I did learn alot about winches, and their capabilities...
I have one question to add to this....
If your using a snatch block in winching I have been told that when ever possible to bring the cable back to something next to your truck and try not to use your vehicle as the final anchor.
I have done this as much as possible but there are times that you just can't do this.
I have 2 D-rings on the front of my truck on each side of the roller head on the winch tray that I made.
would it be better to make some kind of cable with hooks that would come to a center point using both rings to anchor too or does it matter. My question is really wondering if I would bend up the frame if I don't pull from a center point like the winch does??

Krylon..

02-25-2002, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by Gordon
the way winches are rated is pulling a rolling load up a 15 degree slope so a 8000 lb winch could theoretically dead lift 8000 * sin(15) or 2070 lbs, but for safety reasons they don't recomend overhead lifting with them. Also a winch that is rated at 8000 lb "intermitant load" actually stalls at closser to 12000 lbs.

I think the main reason the winches are advertised or labeled to not use for overhead lifting is because of the way the end of the cbale is clamped for a loop. I dont think the aluminum clamp that is used is designed for overhead lifting..... I saw thi on the net somewhere, I will try and find it and post it....

Gordon

02-25-2002, 02:44 PM

Well it looks like I am wrong on the 15 degree thing. I was sure I had that in writing somewhere but I can't find it.

I calculated the power available using the curent draw and 12 v from warns page and the power used utilizing the line speed and load. for a HS9500i at a 6000lb load the line speed is 7.59 ft/min that would require 902watts. they say it draws 305 amps at that load and at 12 volts that corresponds to 3660 Watts or 4.9horsepower that means if the gear train and motor cmobined are only 25% efficient it can really pull the whole 6000 lbs I would have calculated at the 9500 lbs but they only had line speeds up to 6000 lbs for that winch.

I also calculated the shear strength of a coarse thread 3/8 grade 5 bolt. those are plenty strong for 9500 lbs.

So I guess 9500 lbs is really about 9500 lbs. Sorry for passing on the missinformation. The only thing that scares me is a cable with an 8500 lb breaking strength on a winch that can pull 9500 lbs.

92xj

02-25-2002, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by Gordon

The only thing that scares me is a cable with an 8500 lb breaking strength on a winch that can pull 9500 lbs.

Yeah, me too. Worse, it seems that the error factor in the average breaking load is around 30%. That milemarker study earlier this year, where they were trashing the HS9500, had cable breaks as low as about 7000 lbs and as high as 10,000 lbs.

I think I may go to the 3/8 cable for this very reason. I hate to give up length, but I carry an extension anyway. Now I need to work on making the extension connector stronger than either cable.

Like you said above, I'd far rather have the winch stall than have the cable snap.

BTW, can you post the formulas you used for the calculations in your last post? I don't know how to do that.

92xj

02-25-2002, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by Home Built

I have one question to add to this....
If your using a snatch block in winching I have been told that when ever possible to bring the cable back to something next to your truck and try not to use your vehicle as the final anchor.

I think this would depend on your reason for using the snatch block. If you use it just to get a better line, the rule is to have as small an angle as possible. Cable breaking loads are lower the higher the angle is. However, hooking the cable back to your own truck gives the winch more power, in effect, like a block-and-tackle setup. A winch with a load rating of 8000 on a single line would be rated close to 16,000 on a double line, where the line is connected to the vehicle where the winch is mounted.

Travis Waldher

02-25-2002, 04:46 PM

A note on using D-rings though...

Unless you KNOW how to weld.. and unless what you are welding them to is at least 3/16" steel. that say 10,000lb rated D-ring may only hold as little as 10lbs.

Thats the bad part about the D-ring.. it seriously depends on the skill of the welder that puts them on to achieve anywhere near their breaking strength.

Myself? I use them, then again I know people that have been welding for nearly 20 years. ;)

Travis Waldher

02-25-2002, 04:59 PM

Here ya go on the 9500i:

http://www.warn.com/InternetHome/products/Winches/winchHS9500i.shtm

toward the bottom of the page.

And for the life of me... I can't remember where I read it.. but I *think* the breaking strength on a 5/16" aircraft grade wire rope is 9,800lb, and 3/8" was 14,400lb. I'll have to go looking for that tonight.

Originally posted by Gordon
Well it looks like I am wrong on the 15 degree thing. I was sure I had that in writing somewhere but I can't find it.

I calculated the power available using the curent draw and 12 v from warns page and the power used utilizing the line speed and load. for a HS9500i at a 6000lb load the line speed is 7.59 ft/min that would require 902watts. they say it draws 305 amps at that load and at 12 volts that corresponds to 3660 Watts or 4.9horsepower that means if the gear train and motor cmobined are only 25% efficient it can really pull the whole 6000 lbs I would have calculated at the 9500 lbs but they only had line speeds up to 6000 lbs for that winch.

I also calculated the shear strength of a coarse thread 3/8 grade 5 bolt. those are plenty strong for 9500 lbs.

So I guess 9500 lbs is really about 9500 lbs. Sorry for passing on the missinformation. The only thing that scares me is a cable with an 8500 lb breaking strength on a winch that can pull 9500 lbs.

92xj

02-25-2002, 05:17 PM

Here's the link to the Milemarker-financed study, it was the xd9000, not the hs9500. Warn had some problems with the study, see their web page for their side of the story. The most interesting part to me was the wide range of breaking points for supposedly identical cable.

http://www.winchtest.com/xd9000i/1.html

And here's the e-mail I just got from Superwinch:

Bill,

Winches are, by definition, pulling devices. However, in order to get a
true rating, the only way to do it, since the friction coefficients of
different objects, of different weights, resting on different surfaces have
so many variables, is to rate the winch based on what it can "deadlift",
single line, on the first layer of cable around the drum. For each
additional layer of cable around the drum the winch loses approximately 10%
of its initial rating, due to the change in gear ratio. The rating is the
weight at which the winch can effectively operate by moving the max. rated
load for at least 30 seconds without overheating the motor. The stall load
is the weight at which the winch stops (stalls). There is no mathematical
formula for figuring the stall load on a winch. Our winches will pull one
and a half times their single line rating up a 70% grade. Obviously, this
is under perfect conditions with a constant angle and no obstacles to
overcome on the way up. As far as rope strength, we can only recommend the
rope we supply with our winches, which is usually the result of a
combination of factors. Our wire ropes try to meet a happy medium between
being able to handle a certain amount weight in excess of the winch's rating
and still not exceed the drum's capacity. Keep in mind that all winches are
rated on the first layer of cable around the drum, no matter what the rating
is for.

Best Regards,

David

Travis Waldher

02-25-2002, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by 92xj
Here's the link to the Milemarker-financed study, it was the xd9000, not the hs9500. Warn had some problems with the study, see their web page for their side of the story. The most interesting part to me was the wide range of breaking points for supposedly identical cable.

http://www.winchtest.com/xd9000i/1.html

Hmm... don't have time to read the entire thing.. but I wonder what the lab was doing to that winch?

Real world case... an SUV Event.. I have an HS9500i. We did a double pull up a 50-55 degree incline (steep enough to feel the weight go from you ass to your back) approximately 30-35' long. and then powered out. This was for the participants to experience a steep winch pull. They participant operated the winch and had control. Well.. we required the hosts to go first.. so of course they got to that step in one big mass after the 101 course.

I came back to seem my jeep coming back down that hill a little slower than when it started. My charging system never dropped below 10v. But the winch had been operating in and out for nearly 1 hour straight before the brake croaked and the motor burnt up. (The relays were fine)

So much for their 6 minutes on the lab bench huh? :rolleyes:

BillaVista

02-25-2002, 05:49 PM

My Machineries Handbook, 24th edition, lists the following for 6x19 standard hoisting wire ropes.

5/16
mild plow steel 6440
plow steel 7420
impr. plow steel 8520

3/8
mild plow steel 9240
plow steel 10620
impr. plow steel 12200

It also says:
The strength figures shown have been obtained by a mathematical derivation based on actual breakage tests of wire rope and represent from 80 to 95 per cent of the total strengths of the individual wires, depending on the type of rope construction

The maximum load for which a wire rope is to be used should take into account such associated factors as friction, load caused by bending around each sheave, acceleration and deceleration and if a long length of rope is to be used for hoisting, the weight of the rope at its maximum extension. The condition of the rope and type of attachments should also be considered. Factors of safety for standing rope usually range from 3 to 4, for operating rope, from 5 to 12. Where there is the element of hazard to life or property, higher values are used.

On the other hand, my local farm and industrial store catologue lists the following:
7x19 galvanized cable:
5/16 9800
3/8 14400

So, I need a new cable for my 8274, and I haven't decided whether to use 150' 5/16 or 100' of 3/8??

Home Built

02-25-2002, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by 92xj

I think this would depend on your reason for using the snatch block. If you use it just to get a better line, the rule is to have as small an angle as possible. Cable breaking loads are lower the higher the angle is. However, hooking the cable back to your own truck gives the winch more power, in effect, like a block-and-tackle setup. A winch with a load rating of 8000 on a single line would be rated close to 16,000 on a double line, where the line is connected to the vehicle where the winch is mounted.
I would be doing this to get myself out of a tough spot..
The D rings that I have welded on the front are welded to a 1/4in plate that I a made the winch mount out of.
I do use a very tight angle when I have done this in the past, and it is not very often. I just wanted to see if someone knew if I would be in danger of bending my frame or damaging something else on my truck doing this only hooking it to one side of the mount instead of centering the load on the mount. I know that using a snatch block will increase the pulling power of the 9000 lb winch that I have and that is what concerned me about doing this in the past..
Thanks for the reply.

Travis Waldher

02-25-2002, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by BillaVista

On the other hand, my local farm and industrial store catologue lists the following:
7x19 galvanized cable:
5/16 9800
3/8 14400

So, I need a new cable for my 8274, and I haven't decided whether to use 150' 5/16 or 100' of 3/8??

I wanna say that the warn cable was 7x19. the 8274 came with 3/8" originally. ;)

Travis Waldher

02-25-2002, 10:32 PM

Originally posted by Home Built

I would be doing this to get myself out of a tough spot..
The D rings that I have welded on the front are welded to a 1/4in plate that I a made the winch mount out of.
I do use a very tight angle when I have done this in the past, and it is not very often. I just wanted to see if someone knew if I would be in danger of bending my frame or damaging something else on my truck doing this only hooking it to one side of the mount instead of centering the load on the mount. I know that using a snatch block will increase the pulling power of the 9000 lb winch that I have and that is what concerned me about doing this in the past..
Thanks for the reply.

well. I did this all the time when I had two tow hooks onthe jeep. I just double lined it back to the one hook when I needed to. Tho two hooks would probably be better and distribute the load more evenly across teh entire frame.

Something to keep in mind... if the winch and the tow points are integrated in to one bumper that is then bolted tot he frame. All of that pressure will be on the bumper not your frame. The only pressure your frame should see is whatever force it takes to free your rig.

BillaVista

02-26-2002, 06:53 AM

I wanna say that the warn cable was 7x19. the 8274 came with 3/8" originally

When you say originaly, you mean when they first produced them? They now come with 150' of 5/16, and I'm thinking I won;t get 150' of 3/8 on the drum.

'Course if I drop to 100', that means easier to get more cable off the drum for better gearing.

Travis Waldher

02-26-2002, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by BillaVista

When you say originaly, you mean when they first produced them? They now come with 150' of 5/16, and I'm thinking I won;t get 150' of 3/8 on the drum.

'Course if I drop to 100', that means easier to get more cable off the drum for better gearing.

I think before the 8274-50 came out they used 3/8 cable. I Remember reading that somewhere when I was shopping around for a winch.

One thing to note guys... when choosing a larger cable. Talk to Warn FIRST! the size of the drum may be too small to allow the cable to properly wrap around it on the first wrap. While the M12000 and 8274-50 have a 3.5" dia. drum. The other low profile RV winches (not counting the M15000) have a 2.5" drum.

So I would think putting a 3/8" cable on a 8274-50 would be no problem. putting that same cable on a 9500i, 8000, etc. would be.

92xj

02-26-2002, 03:11 PM

Here’s the answer from Warn. Note how he dodges the wall-climbing part of the question, as expected. Looks like he’s well trained, I’m sure his lawyers are proud of him.

Look, I agree a failure is possible, and I’m not willing to pay $250,000+ for a failure free winch. But there’s got to be a way to do it with a reasonable risk profile. You saw above the hoops I was willing to go through to do the winching from outside the vehicle. Add to that some redundancy (say, an extra cable – no, 2 extra cables – anchored above, every 5-10 feet you snug them up, use fat enough cables to handle the calculated shock effect of a 5 foot drop X 4000 pounds, you get the idea). Then on top of that, keep everybody below out of the way and be willing to let the vehicle fall if that 1-in-a-million long shot strikes.

Hell, you ever seen a mountain climbing team using pinions to go up a cliff face? Do you think the climbing outfitters just say “we sell this gear, but we recommend you only use it up to 15 feet off the ground and we refuse to discuss the possibility of climbing a cliff face.” Why not talk about it, say here are the risks, here’s some stuff you can do to minimize those risks, and don’t blame us if you kill yourself.

Anyhow, there's some good info in here on the other points:

Bill,
Hope this helps:
Warn winches are rated by the pulling force that can be developed and
sustained for some distance with the cable on the first layer on the drum.
The stall load is dependant on the amount of time the winch has been
operated and how fast the load is applied. A cold motor will develop more
torque than a hot motor. Therefore, the faster the load is applied, the
higher the stall load will be. Warn does not test the stall load, as this
has little affect on the field performance of the winch.

All the brakes used in Warn recreational winches are designed to hold all
loads up to and including rated load. In order to obtain the best
performance from the brake, the friction ring should not be excessively worn
and the brake assembly should be free of contaminants (ie. mud, silt, etc).
Warn uses industry standard wire rope that conforms to the breaking
strengths listed in the Wire Rope Users Manual. Care should be taken to
maintain the wire rope and replace it when damaged, especially if extended
high load pulls are expected.

The winch required to ascend a given obstacle depends primarily on the
vehicle weight. Small vehicles such as a Samurai can often get excellent
results with a 6000 lb or 8000 lb winch, while a full size Bronco may
require a 9000 lb winch or larger. Longer pulls at high loads also require
a winch with a higher rating. Note that Warn does not recommend using
winches for hoisting applications (an 80Â° incline). Thanks for your
interest in Warn products.

Michael McEwen
Technical Customer Service Representative

BillaVista

02-26-2002, 06:15 PM

use fat enough cables to handle the calculated shock effect of a 5 foot drop X 4000 pounds

Trouble is, you can;t carry a cable big enough for that...it's probably be 6" in diameter or more.

Bottom line - (like climbing) buy the best you can, be careful, realize what you're doing is inherently dangerous, and act as if it could go wrong at any time.

Warn uses industry standard wire rope that conforms to the breaking

There's a briliant piece of non-information ! Not very helpful, was he

92xj

02-28-2002, 03:19 PM

Just to close off this chapter, here's my final correspondence with Warn. Ramsey never did answer, that's about par for their customer service as I hear tell. I sent it to technicalassistance@ramsey.com.

My reply to his email above -

Hey, Mike, thanks for the quick reply. Useful info about motor temp vs.
torque and what to check to keep the brake in top shape. On the cable
ratings, was I supposed to have gotten one of those Wire Rope Users Manuals
with my winch? I'm almost certain I saved all the lit, but I don't have that
in my file. Could you send me another one, preferably an e-version if you
have it?
Also, I'm a little confused about the "no hoist" recommendation. I mean, I
know that is all over the manual and I think its a good thing. I sure don't
want to pay more for my next winch because ya'll got sued by some fool who
hurt himself doing something stupid. But does that mean ya'll can't even
talk about it? Surely you must know that lots of us use winches in
situations like that, and what we're trying to do on this forum topic is
figure out ways to minimize the risk. If the legal guys have ordered you to
stay mum that's okay, but I'm going to do it anyway and I sure would like
the benefit of your company's experience.
Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions.

His reply -

The wire rope users manual is not something we produce. That is a wire rope
industry booklet. You can try your local wire rope manufacture for a copy or
a rigging supply company.

Winches and hoists are not built the same, it is a safety issue. Because of
the differences there is no safe way of using a winch to hoist.

Michael McEwen
Technical Customer Service Representative

geargrinder

02-28-2002, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by aaronlosey
ok, who saw the gods must be crazy when they winched that landrover straight up into a tree? :D

so in other words, it can be done, i saw it in a movie once. ;)

Those Rover capstan winches are PTO driven, which is super strong as long as the engine is running. I have heard that they will pull the vehicle vertical "just like the movie".

BillaVista

02-28-2002, 07:02 PM

92XJ,

I have done some research also, and found out a fascinating fact. Did you know that if you were to follow industry guidlines (and by industry - I mean users of wire rope industrially, folks like crane and gantry and hoist operators who are governed by federal standards and codes and such) the MOSt you could pull with your 9000lb winch would be 1960lbs. this is because the industry demands a safety factor of 5. That is, the safe working load is 20% of the breaking strength, so assume your 9000lb winch came with a 5/16 cable with a breaking strength of 9800lbs, acccording to industry standards you shouldn;t load it more than 1960lbs...interesting huh?

You can read all about this stuff, as well as other neat stuff like how to properly use rigging hardare, the proper name for the common "shackle" we all use, how many wire rope clips are required for given types of wire rope when making a termination, etc. at:

http://www.hanford.gov/docs/rl9236/rl9236tc.htm

Download and browse the pdf files.

Fascinating stuff, no wonder Warn won't talk about it!!

(I'd love to see buddy's response to this!)

DozerDan

02-28-2002, 08:40 PM

lots of cool tech but where are the FAWKING Pictures...

RobTB

02-28-2002, 08:41 PM

That is pretty crazy. I would never do that with my truck. :flipoff2: :eek: :flipoff2: :eek:

92xj

03-01-2002, 01:25 AM

Originally posted by BillaVista

http://www.hanford.gov/docs/rl9236/rl9236tc.htm

Thanks for the link, BillaVista, I've just glanced at it so far but it looks like some good info. Any other links you come across like that, let me know. Here's one I was looking at the other night, an on-line wrecker's manual. http://www.wreckmaster.com/World/Recovery20.htm

I don't think I'll do any wall winching with my 12-year-old M8000. I was looking at the big Warns, the M15000 costs $1200 which is only $400 more than a new HS9500. And the 15's drum is apparently designed to handle 7/16 cable, probably upgradeable to 1/2. The downside is that probably makes normal day-to-day winching more inconvenient.

Well, all that's a year or more away. This year, I guess I'll just stay on the ground with my jeep and get my winching fun pulling out of mudholes and moving logs off the path.

92xj

03-01-2002, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by dozernad
lots of cool tech but where are the FAWKING Pictures...

Here's a few more - first, the SAFE way to winch your jeep up that waterfall....
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

http://www.ramseywinch.de/Fotos/Lila_Tage/Ostern3.jpg

Next, a couple unsafe dudes. Notice how they're wearing helmets, so that their faces will still be recognizeable when they're lying in their coffins after those suspended vehicles UPHILL of them break loose.

http://www.ramseywinch.de/Fotos/Lila_Tage/Ostern13.jpg

http://www.ramseywinch.de/Fotos/Lila_Tage/ostern15.jpg

And a few more interesting shots.

http://www.ramseywinch.de/Fotos/Croatia_Trophy/photo71.jpg

http://www.ramseywinch.de/Fotos/Lila_Tage/Ostern17.jpg

BillaVista

03-01-2002, 04:58 AM

92xj,

How about the US Army's wheeled vehicle drivers manual, chapter 22, vehicle recovery:

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/21-305/ch22.pdf

Diesel_Cruiser

03-01-2002, 09:48 AM

http://www.webphotos.com/view_photo.asp?mi=1&smi=1&a=64564&p=1278686

TNToy

03-01-2002, 10:04 AM

Originally posted by Diesel_Cruiser
http://www.webphotos.com/view_photo.asp?mi=1&smi=1&a=64564&p=1278686

randii

03-01-2002, 10:19 AM

Rescued from burial up above....

Hmm... don't have time to read the entire thing.. but I wonder what the lab was doing to that winch?
I haven't read :( but I'd guess they were doing full, loaded pull the full cable length. Mebbe multiple iterations.

But the winch had been operating in and out for nearly 1 hour straight before the brake croaked and the motor burnt up. (The relays were fine)
I betcha it was not TRULY one hour STRAIGHT.... I can't think of an instance where this would the case, except for perhaps on a dep-water oil drilling rig -- seriously, who winches FULL duty cycle continuously for more than a few minutes?

So much for their 6 minutes on the lab bench huh? :rolleyes:
I actually believe their bench test -- and bet their MM hydro winch would keep merrily pulling... but reality rarely requires a 100% duty cycle with continuous full load for more than a minute.

I'd love to have a PTO (shaft or hydro) AND an electric winch... but if I can only have one, I'd buy an electric winch first.

Randii

BillaVista

03-01-2002, 03:06 PM

Yota-San has attached this image:

Ouch! Check the passengers hand on the outside...drivers...educate your passengers lest cable go snappy and friend lose hand in crushed pulpy mess!

92xj

03-01-2002, 04:00 PM

Hey dieselcruiser, do you know anything about that winch job? I can't figure our if they're being winched by somebody else and the snatch block is hanging from their winch hook (what it looks like) or if they're winching themselves on a 3-line rig-up. It's a way cool pic, but there's several counts where they're gonna lose safety points (hand outside roll cage like Bill said, useless passenger in harms way, even the driver doesn't need to be inside, using winch hook as tow point). Hopefully they just climbed back in for the photo op after they got it stabilized instead of riding up like that.

Randii, I agree with you, I'd love to have a PTO or hydraulic but only after an electric - the dead engine thing is too much to overcome, I've already winched out of more than one river with the motor dead. I wonder, though, if you could buy a small gas-powered generator to run the hydraulic pump? I don't see why not, but it seems like somebody would have thought of it before now.

Check out the army manual link billavista posted for a poor man's PTO on page 4 (crowbar fixed on hub with rope attached). I don't have a protruding axle with a hole, but my wheels have some of those nifty useless extra holes in them, I think I could run rope through there and tie something on. I don't have lockers (yet) so I'd have to do both wheels. It wouldn't work for heavy duty but might get me out of a muddy field if the winch died. There are some other good no-winch recovery options in there too.

Rerard

03-01-2002, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by BillaVista

Ouch! Check the passengers hand on the outside...drivers...educate your passengers lest cable go snappy and friend lose hand in crushed pulpy mess!

YUP I was thinking the exact same thing, brings back memories of Q-Bert's post a few months ago about the lady that lost her fingers...

Travis Waldher

03-01-2002, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by randii
Rescued from burial up above....

But the winch had been operating in and out for nearly 1 hour straight before the brake croaked and the motor burnt up. (The relays were fine)
I betcha it was not TRULY one hour STRAIGHT.... I can't think of an instance where this would the case, except for perhaps on a dep-water oil drilling rig -- seriously, who winches FULL duty cycle continuously for more than a few minutes?

Randii

Umm.. IF you had read my ENTIRE reply. you would have known why it was operated for one entire hour straight. the most it got was a 1-3 minute break every 5-10 minutes. But.. if you keep doing that.. LIKE the lab did. They never specified a cool down period for the winch, that is why their test wasn't worth the paper written on. WARN STATES that their winch is NOT continuous duty, but from what I did read from the report, the lab operated their test winch, much in the same way I did. And low and behold, the winch failed because it was being operated outside of its rated duty cycle, which for warn is intermittent, betting less than 10%.

So.. MM to make their winch looked better attacked the only thing they could. Duty Cycle. Just because an independant 3rd party did the tests, DOES NOT mean that MM didn't outline to the lab what the tests needed to do.

Bottom line is MM makes a good winch, but unfortunately is kinda useless on a trail rig. What good is a winch that won't work if the engine wont run. Now.. if someone made a small electric hydro pump that could flow what MM required, consume less amps at full load than a Warn. I would probably switch to MM.