Seeing all the responses to Big Rich's "Modified Stock Solution" thread, I've noticed a theme. Seems that a lot of people want to compete, but don't necessarily want to take it seriously. And that creates a dilemma for promoters like Rich (or me, if you're into mud).

See, the problem with low entry fees that everyone can afford is that EVERYONE shows up. And that makes for more work for everyone involved. What's more, that long day gets boring for the spectators. And like any competitive motorsport, spectators are the key to keeping the sport successful. And the fans aren't just bored because it's a long day, they're bored because a lot of the action is, well, BORING if EVERYONE competes.

That's why when everyone else was charging $15 to enter a mud race, I charged $30. Now everyone else charges $20, & I charge $40. If $40 per class doesn't shorten the show, it'll go to $50 per class next year.

Like rock crawling, I have multiple classes for different levels in mud racing. But, the crowd really only enjoys the folks within each class that are SERIOUS about what they're doing. So, I'm riding a thin line here. On the one hand, I don't want to discourage 1st-timers from competing. On the other hand, I don't want to be overwhelmed with slow trucks that'll put the crowd to sleep.


Anyhow, that's my commentary on the situation I & Big Rich face when putting together 4x4 events. Still, I'd like to see what y'all have to say on the subject.

Comments?

TEX

What about just making a qualiying time and charging a low amount? That might also discourage first timers though..

maybe you could have the qualifying round and then the ones who dont make it have to run before the posted time of the boys who qualified... That way if ya didnt wanna come until the big boys got out there you wouldnt have to... But you could get there early AM and stay all day for to see everyone...

Originally posted by TyTy
What about just making a qualiying time and charging a low amount? That might also discourage first timers though..

maybe you could have the qualifying round and then the ones who dont make it have to run before the posted time of the boys who qualified... That way if ya didnt wanna come until the big boys got out there you wouldnt have to... But you could get there early AM and stay all day for to see everyone...

Yeah, that could condense the "show" for the spectators who just want to see "the finals". On the other hand, then we'd have to run some folks twice, so it'd get into additional work. Interesting idea though.

TEX

Motorsports events are few and far between around here to begin with. So when anything comes into town the house is packed. The promoters around here usually oversell the event (which is common to do to an extent) but they don't expect everyone to actually show up. I've noticed that there are plenty of guys that would like to get serious about competition, but they don't have the budget, or time off, to drive to the next show. This includes everything from moto-cross to mud.

When the monster trucks come to town and they have the tough truck races, they usually have a big turn out. Usually it is a bunch of guys that everyone knows so it draws a bigger crowd to the event. There are people that run their daily drivers, there are people that run full awn off road rigs like the guys here have. Because of the large turn out for the tough truck, they lump them all into one group and let them have at it on the same course. You get people tearing up rigs that take forever to get off of the course, you get the full awn rigs embarrasing the little guy, and unless there is breakage, you always have the same winners. Hazards of having an event like this in small town USA. There is a need for more space between classes to get more people involved.

There are two mud events here in Oregon that I know of that draw crazy numbers of people. Foster Lake is just a big mud run over in Sweet Home, Oregon where they used to let people out onto a drained lake bed, for one day only, to have a blast. Every kind of rig imaginable was there. There were rigs that people created just to run that lake bed. Nothing organized, just for fun.

The second event is at Starkey. This is an actual event that lasts for three days of constant mud racing. From mid morning until dark you have trucks in the lanes. Classes for everyone. Nothing else special about the event. Nothing on the side to keep people occupied. They just show up, get soused, and watch the trucks run in the mud. I guess it's the fact that so many trucks show up, they don't get bored from seeing the same truck twice.

Originally posted by FYRMAN
three days of constant mud racing

I just creamed myself :D:D



TEX

I would love to compete. I would be in it to win, but I just can't make it happen without a bunch of sponsors and money. I have thought about entering a CalRocs event but the rig isn't ready. One of these days I will make it hopefully. The desire to win is definately there and I think I could probably do good.
joe

When I go watch the Bozeman Mudbog I see a lot of not-competitive rigs.

The biggest class is the 35-under "street" class where anyone n' everyone can run. $20/$25 entry fee buys you a T-shirt to boot.

A lot of the crowd are friends/family of the competitors that show up to cheer Bobby on.

The BEST part is Bobby is almost always running a jacked up Chevy with monster 35" mudders and dual glasspacks with chrome tips muffling a worn out 350 and 3.73 gears... but with the razor-backs and Lund visor it sure looks cool.. to about the 20' mark where it SINKS like a ROCK.

:D :D

Then there are the retired racers and/or hot-rodders with 514s in an otherwise "stock" high-boy with 35s that'll tear it up..

The true "racers" make up the minority at the mud-bog running in the "Limited" and "Open" tire classes.

The money maker is every college kid with a set of glasspacks and something to prove.

At the other races, it's almost exclusively "racers" with a very very small or non-existant "stock" and "street/trail" class - even for something as mundane as sand drags.

Most people won't risk their pretty street machine.

I like the modest entries ($20 for one event, $10 for each additional one.. give or take).

A $50 entry isn't going to make or break me, but the $30 would cover most of my gas to the event.. and then there's the inevitable breakage. :)

One club runs a $100 "heavy metal" class baja.. winner takes half.

I don't run it. $100 is too much money to donate to someone that already has too much money tied up in their rig.

It surely won't be my beater Scout II with non-reservoir shocks winning after a 2 hour race against ex Dez-racing trucks with multiple remote reservoir shocks..

The problem there is that they're not bringing any new blood into the sport.

Collectively we have poor turn-out to our races and we keep trying to get more people involved so we can have more spectators and racers.

Hmm.. I've rambled again.. must be time to go wrench on something. :D

hey what about want to compete bad just for fun but can't yet cause the truck isn't done and I need to buy a house to park it at so it'll be a few years yet crowd?

Right now I don't have anything that I am willing to compete in but when I get my flatty done I fully intend to enter AND be competetive. I won't be able to go to every event but because most of the competetive rock crawling events are so far away I can't afford to enter "just for fun." Who knows, maybe this thing I'm building will work in mud racing too, light weight with decent power, you never know.

:smokin: :smokin: :smokin: :smokin:

The problem with competition now is the bucks involved. The folks who want to compete can't afford what it costs to be competitive and most of them don't want to be in the "also ran" category that they'll surely end up in with their street /trail rigs.

Back in the olden days most everything was low pressure, run whatcha brung, have fun, drink beer type stuff. Now, to be competitive you gotta have a sponsor or be indepently wealthy and that leaves most of the young people out.

A few of you might remember the Gold Country Classic in Georgetown. We had a hell of a lot of fun for 2 or 3 days and nobody really cared who won.

I'm the competitive type.
I don't mind paying a larger entry fee but I want the pot to be higher also. It's for fun but I'm there to win and so far have done pretty good ( even when they put our naturally aspirated machine against the nitrous boys).
I'm not interested in paying a $30.00 entry fee to win $60.00 for 1rst place. That doesn't even pay for my gas to get there.
I also think it's extremely important to have fair classifications.
Nitrous mixed with and naturaly aspirated is not a fair class . Tractor tires mixed with DOT tires is not a fair class either.
It has to be challenging yet achievable

One of the best bogs we have competed in was a $35.00 entry fee and a $450.00 for first ( it's nice when you have two drivers as you can do a 1rst and 2nd take :D) . Not only did this attract over 60 very cool trucks but a very very large audience. It was one of the most fun and feel good events I have competed in.

Originally posted by white knight
I'm the competitive type.
I don't mind paying a larger entry fee but I want the pot to be higher also.

Yup, that's fair. I put all my entry fees back into the prize purse, so as the fees go up, so does the purse. 'Course that's part of the reason that the higher fees aren't discouraging racers & I'm getting these 8-9 hour events :D

I'm not interested in paying a $30.00 entry fee to win $60.00 for 1rst place. That doesn't even pay for my gas to get there.

My most recent event had 28 trucks in your class (that's a non-NOS class BTW) & on a $30 entry (last year was $30 per class), that's $336 to win :) (40% to 1st, 30% to 2nd, 20%, to 3rd, 10% to 4th). It's easy for us to give out good purses in the kinds of classes you'd run here because there's usually a lot of entries. For us, the problem is the top class. The racers come from out of town, so they don't drag any extra spectators along with 'em. And they only have 8-10 entries in their class, so not much entry $$ to put into the purse. But, they have the most expensive machines & put on the best show, so we have to kick in extra $$$ to get them to show up. At most events, I'm kicking in an extra $3,500 spread over the 3 fastest classes, and I could really stand to add another $1,000 to Modified & another $1,750 to Pro Mod to beef up those classes. Maybe someday.

I also think it's extremely important to have fair classifications.
Nitrous mixed with and naturaly aspirated is not a fair class . Tractor tires mixed with DOT tires is not a fair class either.
It has to be challenging yet achievable

Yeah, you try not to mix that stuff up. But, even with 11 classes, I end up with some folks who make one mod too many & wind up in a class they really didn't want to be in. For example, if you've put a 4-link under your truck & want to run on my shallow Fast Track, you're gonna be in a class with cut tires & NOS (but not rails). If you're willing to run the Pit with that truck, you don't have it quite so tough though. Same thing with a truck that is otherwise stock appearing, but has no bed. That's gonna be up against tractor tires in the Pit, cuts & NOS on the Fast Track.

Then, you get the guys who essentially have built a "rail", but have a stock 350 in it. They can't even beat my street truck, but they're gonna be in one of the top classes just because they've cut damn near everything off their truck. And some of these guys then have the nerve to complain about the class they're in. I try to explain it like this: the classes that allow extensive body, frame, suspension, and tire modifications are the same classes that allow extensive ENGINE mods. And if you modify everything BUT the engine, well you're gonna race with folks who modified everything INCLUDING the engine.

Anyhow, I do think that your rig getting mixed up with NOS & tractor tires is a raw deal. Around here, it'd be a better setup for ya. At MMRA or my GUMBO events, you'd be running with trucks like yours. At MMOR events, you WOULD be running with NOS & cut tires, UNLESS you dropped down to 40" or smaller rubber, and then you'd be with trucks like yours.

TEX

Thanks for the info

I felt it WAS a raw deal, going against the rails. Still took third though.

If I would have known ahead of time- at least you know what you're getting into. I found out when I got there.
At that point you just say- hey this is for fun- let's see what happens

I understand it's hard setting up these events and a lot depends on who and how many show.

I'd still rather have these events available , be able to compete and have a good time. It's not like you're really in for the money. It's more of an adrenaline rush :D

I would like to be in a new catagory. :D

In my junk ever gets finished I plan on beating the hell out of it for fun and competition until I run out of repair $$$!!! :)

Tex, if I am running the Turbo 4.3 and inject a 50/50 methanol/water mix so I can turn to turbo up another 10 pounds of boost like I plan to would the rules consider that a power adder like NOS? It will add another 110 hp or so. :D

Originally posted by MattS


Tex, if I am running the Turbo 4.3 and inject a 50/50 methanol/water mix so I can turn to turbo up another 10 pounds of boost like I plan to would the rules consider that a power adder like NOS? It will add another 110 hp or so. :D

Methanol is legal fuel in all classes except the "street" classes. The turbo is actually a bigger no-no than NOS. BUT, because yours is a "factory" piece, you can get an exemption - even if it ain't "factory" in your truck ;) And nobody with a 523" in a Ranger is gonna gripe about a turbo 4.3 :D

TEX

Thanks Tex!! LOL They might not complain before but when they get beat and realize my little 4.3 is putting down over 450 hp they might get a little mad. :angel:

Originally posted by TEX
And nobody with a 523" in a Ranger is gonna gripe about a turbo 4.3 :D

TEX

Originally posted by TEX


Yeah, you try not to mix that stuff up. But, even with 11 classes, I end up with some folks who make one mod too many & wind up in a class they really didn't want to be in. For example, if you've put a 4-link under your truck & want to run on my shallow Fast Track, you're gonna be in a class with cut tires & NOS (but not rails). If you're willing to run the Pit with that truck, you don't have it quite so tough though. Same thing with a truck that is otherwise stock appearing, but has no bed. That's gonna be up against tractor tires in the Pit, cuts & NOS on the Fast Track.

Then, you get the guys who essentially have built a "rail", but have a stock 350 in it. They can't even beat my street truck, but they're gonna be in one of the top classes just because they've cut damn near everything off their truck. And some of these guys then have the nerve to complain about the class they're in. I try to explain it like this: the classes that allow extensive body, frame, suspension, and tire modifications are the same classes that allow extensive ENGINE mods. And if you modify everything BUT the engine, well you're gonna race with folks who modified everything INCLUDING the engine.


Tex, this is my problem. I only enter mud events once or twice a year, but I wheel just about every weekend. The mods I have made to my Jeep take me out of the classes where I can be competitive (suspension vs engine mods). I'm going to spend my money on my rig where it makes the mosts sence. I don't need 400hp to run the trails up here, but a workable suspension is a must. So I just run to have fun. In Maine, the entry fees run in the $10-$15 range. I just got an email with the purses for this years events, if your interested, I can PM you with them.

Originally posted by Archie_G


I just got an email with the purses for this years events, if your interested, I can PM you with them.

Sure, always feel free to send me mud info :)

TEX

I just signed up for my first compatition :D. I've never even seen a compatition before so it'll be interesting. The way the classes come out, I'm one of the babies in the wild class (top class-and this is just a family type compatition, so no real hard stuff), so I guess I'll have to rely on more driver skill. Can't wait to see how I do compared to other folks! :cool: