I got this off the rec.backcountry newsgroup and thought I'd pass it on. This guy is getting some feedback, but needs to get more.

Robert

From: enough_already@lycos.com

Subject: the white trash wilderness experience

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry, rec.autos.4x4

The subject line is a summary of offroading for offroading's sake,
rather than a means to get someplace. I see the merit of using dirt
roads to get to remote places, but those who just want to pit machine
against nature are white trash in my opinion.

There is a general disregard for nature among people who don't want to
get out and walk, and are often in too poor shape to do so. Noise and
gasoline fumes are the antithesis of what nature is about. For the
hardcore offroader, wilderness is just a backdrop for the beer belly
"sport" rather than something to be enjoyed on its own merits. These
are the same people who want to jet ski on pristine lakes. I think we
should restrict this breed to dirty reservoirs and old mining pits.

The celebrated Rubicon Trail in California has become white trash
heaven, as a recent tour showed me. It's getting more crowded all the
time, which magnifies the crass atmosphere. Big deal if a Jeep can
climb a rock sluice. It's been done thousands of times. Want to
prove something? Get out and hike those same miles!

When these couch potatoes bitch about lack of access to wilderness, I
have little sympathy. I hope this "sport" doesn't spread into new
lands as existing trail acreage is taken over by land development, aka
overpopulation.

E.A.

http://enough_already.tripod.com/

If any other species behaved like Man we'd call it a plague.

Where do these people come from?? :rolleyes:


:usa:

Originally posted by Yellowsub1962
Where do these people come from?? :rolleyes:


:usa:

Maybe granola ville?:confused: :confused:

The link to enough already doesn't work for me!!!!!

I would like to talk to this guy... Out of shape? Well I am an avid offroader and a Wild land firefighter (hot shot Crew) and I am in great shape! I am on a hot shot crew I can hike this little clown into the dirt I guarentee it for god sakes I do it for a living! Why do these people think the world is all about them? Its our land not your land.

I hate being lumped in with the bubbas. I love wheeling, and use it both as a way to get there and also as its own end. And I'm also not a beer bellied slug, I run 5 miles a day, lift, and was high angle emt on Graham County Sheriff's SAR until a few years ago when I moved to NM. On occasion just for a cheap thrill I ride my Diamondback Assault 24 BMX bike on downhill mtn. bike trails just because I can. Not in shape with a beer belly, not hardly. And I know damn well I'm not alone.:mad3:

I have a tear in my eye, I'm so proud:D Really, some people just don't like us...never did, never will. I personally feel anyone who puts as much effort and money into a vessel and takes it into the great outdoors as we do, is a REAL nature nut! All the tree huggers just seem to want to gate everything off limits to everyone.
I also have a problem with the vehicle restrictions many government agency's put on public lands. With the americans with disability's act, it seems that they are breaking the law by not allowing me (with a missing leg) to have access to this public land. I feel that my Jeep is a mobility device, and by not allowing this device, they are discriminating (sp?) against me.....Okay, so I get around just fine with a fake leg, but I might have a lawsuit here to open up more public lands to wheelers. What do y'all think?

Cutter, the ADA implications in closures are huge, and the gov and GAGs both know it, but try to avoid it. It is an angle very much worth pursuing.

Brad,

Unfortunately, there isn't much room to use the ADA in respect to Designated Wilderness at least. I found a report from some government Agency from around 92? (after the passage of the ADA). This agency was formed and tasked with the sole purpose of reviewing the effects of the ADA and the Wilderness Act.

Bottom line was that even though wheelchairs can be considered "mechanical transportation" they are allowed in Wilderness (including motorized wheelchairs, indoor type), HOWEVER, there is no requirement to make special provisions for them.

The real interesting thing I found from this report was that in a survey of land managers, the Agency found that over 50% didn't feel that wheelchairs were allowed (in many cases in direct conflect with existing published regulations). They concluded that edjucation was needed as most land managers didn't even know the regulations that govern the land they are to manage.

Robert

I wasn't referring to wheelchairs specifically, I was referencing access in general. It has ADA implications that as far as I know have not yet been addressed in the courts. I'd love to see handicapped access issues addressed in federal court.

Brad,

If you want, I'll find where I downloaded the report (I saved it in word I believe) and email it to you.

Really they did address access. Basically said if they can't have access with a standard wheelchair, they were SOL. I agree that I'd like to see it challenged in court, but it appears that the issue was considered and decided.

Robert

Doc, send it on, I'd appreciate it.

Brad, if there is anything I can do let me know. I would be very willing to take this to a court (I don't really know how, but i'm checking into it). I personally can get around very well, but this maybe could be an angle to get a bit more land opened up. I travel around the country to wheel, so I would be interested in getting land opened up anywhere.
Just let me know,
Lewis

Originally posted by landuseorc
I wasn't referring to wheelchairs specifically, I was referencing access in general. It has ADA implications that as far as I know have not yet been addressed in the courts. I'd love to see handicapped access issues addressed in federal court.

Brad,

It's on the way. By the way this does hit close to me. My brother is a parapalegic (fell repelling) and rides offroad with us alot. He finally traded his Tracker in for a YJ a year ago and can hit some decent trails.

Robert

keep me in mind if I can help

We can try to push it again. Just because it's been denied before doesn't mean that it won't succeed the second time around.

Well hate to bring it up again, but here he is again. Must have gone back in his cave for awhile. Thought some might be interested.

On 2002-02-24 JGP (JGP@JGP.COM) wrote:


>what a spurious and badly targeted argument.


Sorry I took this long to respond, but I never read the replies to my
original post. My argument was targeted just fine. You merely tried
to deflect it.


>The pollution inflicted on this planet by the motor car is a very

serious

>problem thats needs serious attention, but starting with off-road

drivers is

>illogical.


Stop there and read my original post again. It was about *attitudes*
toward wilderness, not specifically pollution. But since you raised
that point, don't forget *noise* pollution, which is not created in
wilderness by cars in cities miles away. And on heavily traveled
trails there are problems with local air pollution from hundreds of
vehicles. It injects gasoline fumes directly into the woods like no
city cars can.

But I'd rather have you stick to the main point about attitudes.
People who burn gas and make a racket in wilderness are rarely in it
for the same reasons as those who do it on foot or horseback. I think
their aesthetic values are far more urban and destructive.

Look at the many offroad websites and honestly tell me these people
are pro-nature. Most of these sites are full of articles panning
environmentalism. They respect nature only to the point where they
have to shut off their engines or keep out. They spend a lot of time
trashing laws like the ESA, and claim that opening up MORE land to
MORE vehicles will somehow save endangered species from "poorly
written laws."

Read through the rhetoric and it's clear these people don't care about
much beyond motorized access. They offer no suggestions for helping
threatened species, they just claim they can't "really" be endangered,
as if there was never a reason for the ESA in the first place! True
conservationists don't put all their effort into DENYING environmental
problems.

Here's is one example of such denial from an off-road group:

http://www.off-road.com/landuse/paige/dunes_closed.html

Read the above closely. Nowhere in that article will you see genuine
concern for non-human, non-motorized life. They ignore that human
population growth (2.5 million each year in the U.S. alone) is forcing
wilderness to be "shut down" before it's overrun by people. So-called
victories for nature are usually just a postponing of the human
invasion in a particular area. So-called land grabs are last stands
for species threatened by human takeover.

The rhetoric of off-roaders is consistently anti-protection and
pro-intrusion. To them, nature has little value unless people can
access it by road. It's just another manifestation of anthropocentric
greed. Engines speak louder than words.

E.A.

http://enough_already.tripod.com/

If any other species behaved like Man we'd call it a plague.