Okay, this is related to the other thread I brought back to life, but a different subject. I have had the Rockware "Offset" Tie-Rod for about 4 years now. Good product, but I have slighty bent it many times and well I think I finally bent it too much to trust it on a hard trail. So it's now time to replace it. So the question is: Do you think the bend in the "Offset" Tie-Rods takes away much of the strength versus a completely straight Tie-Rod? Obviously physics dictates that there is some strenght loss due to roughly four 90* bends to lift it out of the way.

I'm just trying to come up with some options to get around this problem, so far I have:

1) Deal with it.
2) make it bigger, like 1" DOM
3) reinforce it with more steel like they would on "Home Improvement"
4) don't use "Offset" Tie-Rods and make them thick as hell and know your going to drive them over rocks.
5) Move everything to the front of the axle.
6) screw it, go watch Napolean Dynamite again...

I am trying to keep cost down so 5 is out, 1 and 4 are out due to just being impractical. What am I not thinking of?

How much lift do you have Larry? According to John B-S, if you have five inches or more, the Euro-knuckles are acceptable for use to move everything to the front. I believe he responded to my request a while back-search?

After having bent one of Matt's tie rods, I now have a 1-1/2" (solid) 4340 cross tube and probably should call Keith to order one of his offset track rods. In spite of my bragging about not having broken anything, I do bend stering components on a regular basis.

Peace,
PT

Anyone ever investigate the possibility of making a tierod from spring steel?
Bill.

I believe he responded to my request a while back-search?

After having bent one of Matt's tie rods, I now have a 1-1/2" (solid) 4340 cross tube and probably should call Keith to order one of his offset track rods. In spite of my bragging about not having broken anything, I do bend stering components on a regular basis.

Peace,
PT

I saw that thread. I am running about 5 inches of lift, but for now am avoiding the conversion due to the $200 plus for just the knuckle not including the tubing, fittings etc. In the end the conversion would probably run close to $400 knowing me. Too much for now. I'm thinking more like bending my own and building it for about $100 in parts/materials.

Just get some 1.5" 0.25" wall DOM and be done with it. I just built some rear links with the 1.75" 0.25" Wall DOM, and I don't forsee them breaking... ever.

Just get some 1.5" 0.25" wall DOM and be done with it. I just built some rear links with the 1.75" 0.25" Wall DOM, and I don't forsee them breaking... ever.

1.5", 0.25" wall thickness=1.00" ID. The tap drill diameter for the 11/16" tie rod ends is 5/8", hence, wouldn't we want something with an ID of <5/8"?

How much does Keith charge for his bent tie rods? Prolly cheaper and far easier than trying to make your own (did I just say that?).

Peace,
PT

1.5", 0.25" wall thickness=1.00" ID. The tap drill diameter for the 11/16" tie rod ends is 5/8", hence, wouldn't we want something with an ID of <5/8"?

And this folks, is why you don't post on pirate immediatly after a thermodynamics final...

I wasn't thinking...I'm using the big stuff... but I'm also using inserts and the 1-ton tre's.

1.5", 0.25" wall thickness=1.00" ID. The tap drill diameter for the 11/16" tie rod ends is 5/8", hence, wouldn't we want something with an ID of <5/8"?

How much does Keith charge for his bent tie rods? Prolly cheaper and far easier than trying to make your own (did I just say that?).

Peace,
PT

Probably going with something other than the Rover rod-ends, not sure what the GM's take as listed in the other thread.

Keith wants $200 without rod-ends. Not a bad price, but I think I can do it cheaper and have excess steel for the inventory when finished! Plus as your well aware it's much more fun to build it yourself.

3) reinforce it with more steel like they would on "Home Improvement"

6) screw it, go watch Napolean Dynamite again...


I always like option #3.
I wont even ask what #6 is.

For arguments sake and because it might be valuable tech for others, lets forget about cost for a second.

Couldn't you
1. Cut off the axle flanges and replace with Series flanges.
2. Get some Series balls.
3. Get the BCB swivel housing.
4. Use all your existing brake components.
5. Have some stearing arms made that go ontop of the swivel.

This would let you:
Rotate pinion to correct for lift
Correct stearing geometry dur to rotating axle.
Get the tie rod and drag link up out of harms way.
Correct any bump stear caused by lift.
Get stronger swivels.

Other then cost of the BCB swivels, this wouldn't be bad.

Would it work?

Pete












ps. ok what the hell is #6?

Pete:
Lifting 5" and using the "Euro" knuckles would more easily accomplish what you described.

The Series swivels would allow for the tie rods in front, but the interference with the panhard rod is the issue, hence the necessity for such a drastic lift.

ps. ok what the hell is #6?

Dang!!! (http://www2.foxsearchlight.com/napoleondynamite/epk/index.php)

ps. ok what the hell is #6?


Pete:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0374900/


I can't believe you've escaped Napoleon Dynamite. Rent it and understand what all the dorks are giggling about :flipoff2:

OK, the movie must have come out while I was otherwise engaged in the desert :D

Pete:
Lifting 5" and using the "Euro" knuckles would more easily accomplish what you described.


Aloha Paul,

Since my 110 sal front came off a MoD armoured truck it was a RHD vehicle. I picked up a NADA swivel off a LHD in Canada, so I have arms front and rear on both knuckles.

I understand that you need to lift to place both steering rods in the front because other wise you get interferance with the panhard rod.

But if the pan hard wasnt a concern I guess the BCB housing would work.

Pete (obviously still fighting the leave - coil battle)

I always like option #3.
I wont even ask what #6 is.

For arguments sake and because it might be valuable tech for others, lets forget about cost for a second.

Couldn't you
1. Cut off the axle flanges and replace with Series flanges.
2. Get some Series balls.
3. Get the BCB swivel housing.
4. Use all your existing brake components.
5. Have some stearing arms made that go ontop of the swivel.

This would let you:
Rotate pinion to correct for lift
Correct stearing geometry dur to rotating axle.
Get the tie rod and drag link up out of harms way.
Correct any bump stear caused by lift.
Get stronger swivels.

Other then cost of the BCB swivels, this wouldn't be bad.

Would it work?

Pete





ps. ok what the hell is #6?

Im in the process of doing this. Ill let you know how it turns out in a couple years when I finish. :flipoff2: I suspose that if one were to go the euro knuckle route to would be less money, but it you consider the BCB knuckle, you are also reindexing the balls at the same time.

Has anyone (Kieth K) looked into the possibility of creating Histeer arms for the coiler knuckle, im sure some machine work would be required on the knuckle, but is it doable?






Oh and Larry, "do you ever take it off any sweet jumps?"

-Jeff

Has anyone (Kieth K) looked into the possibility of creating Histeer arms for the coiler knuckle, im sure some machine work would be required on the knuckle, but is it doable?






Oh and Larry, "do you ever take it off any sweet jumps?"

-Jeff

I asked about this long ago and got soundly flamed for the lack of safety given the design of the swivel ball and upper pin.

I asked about this long ago and got soundly flamed for the lack of safety given the design of the swivel ball and upper pin.

It is a question of weather the coiler knuckle has enough metal on top to make it work. Since I don't have one loose to compare, im not sure. I do have the BCB & Series knuckles, which are more then beefy enough.

As for the Euro knuckle Idea, Does anyone have any pics oth this set up?

-Jeff

Oh and Larry, "do you ever take it off any sweet jumps?"

-Jeff

http://pics.montypics.com/lwg/2005-05-12/1115930958_larry_air.jpg

I think Keith has dabbled with this conversion before, I suspect there wasn't enough demand at the time for it. Eventually I will do it, just not right now.

It is a question of weather the coiler knuckle has enough metal on top to make it work. Since I don't have one loose to compare, im not sure. I do have the BCB & Series knuckles, which are more then beefy enough.

As for the Euro knuckle Idea, Does anyone have any pics oth this set up?

-Jeff

search this forum for "euro knuckle" :flipoff2:
There are pics of Disco from VA that had it done. Believe at RTE.
What is not shown in the photo, nor explained is if they drilled and reamed a second hole in the right hand arm or if they used a Y type drag link/tie rod.

JL did the hi steer arm, but the photo has disapeared into the vast reaches of the web, did anyone ever save it?

I have some loose coil swivel housing and they are definately "thinner" then leaf housings on the top.

Is ackerman angle tied to the length of the steering arms on the swivel housing?
Wondering if using the BCB housing and longer arms would clear the panhard rod.

Pete

"Anyone ever investigate the possibility of making a tierod from spring steel?"

I have seen this done. I want to say Sumo bars are made with spring steel.

My solution for LWB #2 is a conversion to D-90 drop arm and tie rod track rod sleeved with Dan Bars (1/4 wall hardened steel cad plated with zerks you pump full of grease so they work like rollers)

Found the photo of the disco. Still looking for JLs arm

http://www.rovertym.com/wheeling/DSCN0149.jpg

It almost looks like stacked heim joints.

-Jeff

6) screw it, go watch Napolean Dynamite again...


you LIKED that movie?

It almost looks like stacked heim joints.

-Jeff

That's how it was done.

Larry, I'm too lazy to break out my ME reference books - but I'd go out on a limb and say that every bend in a tie rod (designed to withstand compressive loads) reduces its strength by several times (I'd say between 2 and 10). Seeing bent and curved drag links and tie rods always amazes me. I realize that sometimes there's nearly no other way - but, if I had to do it, I'd gusset every bend in the tubing.

I made a tie rod for my Wag from 1" ID, 0.120 wall tubing; had to use heim joints, and had bungs welded to the ends of the rod. Been bashed to pulp by jeep people claiming they make tie rods out of 7/16"-wall tubing - but, something tells me it'll be okay, compared to stock LR or jeep tie rods.

This - http://3rj.com/auto/68Wag/AxleConversion/frontRangeRover.jpg - could give an idea how to deal with the tie rod and drag link when you can't live with the straight tie rod behind the axle.

This - http://3rj.com/auto/68Wag/AxleConversion/frontRangeRover.jpg - could give an idea how to deal with the tie rod and drag link when you can't live with the straight tie rod behind the axle.

How tall is the drag link bracket (in red)
I don't understand what you did to the stearing arm (green) do you have a photo of same from the front?
Why not use the rover taper?
Pete
http://www.aloharovers.com/howto/coilsteer.jpg

to achieve the proper Ackerman angle, tie rod in front of the axle needs to be longer than kingpin-to-kingpin distance. I found that if I used ball joints in the TREs, they would not clear the rims.

the drag link mount is offset by 1 5/8" from the centerline of the tie rod - here's a sketch I made (it was done a bit differently):
http://3rj.com/auto/68Wag/AxleConversion/bracket2.jpg

to achieve the proper Ackerman angle, tie rod in front of the axle needs to be longer than kingpin-to-kingpin distance. I found that if I used ball joints in the TREs, they would not clear the rims.

the drag link mount is offset by 1 5/8" from the centerline of the tie rod - here's a sketch I made (it was done a bit differently):

Cool.
Do you have a photo of the axle on the Jeep?
I want to put my coil axle under my 88 and keep the leafs
Pete

Larry, I'm too lazy to break out my ME reference books - but I'd go out on a limb and say that every bend in a tie rod (designed to withstand compressive loads) reduces its strength by several times (I'd say between 2 and 10). Seeing bent and curved drag links and tie rods always amazes me. I realize that sometimes there's nearly no other way - but, if I had to do it, I'd gusset every bend in the tubing.

I made a tie rod for my Wag from 1" ID, 0.120 wall tubing; had to use heim joints, and had bungs welded to the ends of the rod. Been bashed to pulp by jeep people claiming they make tie rods out of 7/16"-wall tubing - but, something tells me it'll be okay, compared to stock LR or jeep tie rods.

This - http://3rj.com/auto/68Wag/AxleConversion/frontRangeRover.jpg - could give an idea how to deal with the tie rod and drag link when you can't live with the straight tie rod behind the axle.

I was kind of thinking about gusseting the bends. It sometimes seems squishy under real high loads (Read, diff locked trying to turn 12.5" wide tires with underpowered Rover PS).

The URL you listed is the more expensive option, but probably the better one. Those RHD swivels run about $250 + I would have to machine them to fit my larger axles + build all new links with either Heims or HD Tie-Rod ends. ultimately this could run upwards of $400 or $500. Too much for the time being.

... ultimately this could run upwards of $400 or $500. Too much for the time being.

You know, if you help Uncle Rico sell a couple of 36 piece sets, you'd have the cash in no time....

:flipoff2:

-Jeff

The URL you listed is the more expensive option, but probably the better one. Those RHD swivels run about $250 + I would have to machine them to fit my larger axles

Do you have an extra NADA spec right hand swivel?
If so find someone on this list from OZ that will swap you for a RHD left side swivel.
There were a couple of guys expressing an interest in the dual arms.
I paid $75CAN for my LHD swivel from a guy with a bunch of rovers that were sold at an auction in Alberta in 2003.

I know about machining the stub to fit larger axles, what on the swivel housing needs machining?
Pete

Larry, I got lucky by finding a RHD knuckle for $50 on my way to work :)
But, looking back, it appears like you could make high-steering similar to Dana 44 (people often do it along with SOA conversion), using the two bolt holes on top of the knuckle (that cover the kingpin).
The heim joints weren't that cheap, either - about $40 a pop.

Pete - here are some photos:
http://3rj.com/auto/68Wag/AxleConversion/frontRangeRover_installed.jpg
http://3rj.com/auto/68Wag/AxleConversion/RR_right_front_knuckle_axle_installed.jpg
And there's a long-ass write-up:
http://3rj.com/auto/68Wag/AxleConversion/RangeRoverAxleConversion.pdf

[QUOTE=evilfij
I have seen this done. I want to say Sumo bars are made with spring steel.
[/QUOTE]

From Ian Sykes, inventor of Sumo bars:

"Steel tube specification

BS6323 Part 4 CFS 3 BK
Suivant Specification Client TRUMECH

"

I don't know what it means.

But it didn't bend like spring steel...

T

You know, if you help Uncle Rico sell a couple of 36 piece sets, you'd have the cash in no time....

:flipoff2:

-Jeff


I Want That!!!

Do you have an extra NADA spec right hand swivel?

Pete

I wish! Then there would be no question what to do. The only place I know of with them is Rovers Down South and I think they run about $250 from George.

I've got one (or a couple).

I wish! Then there would be no question what to do. The only place I know of with them is Rovers Down South and I think they run about $250 from George.

Wow!! Or are you saying that George has the RHD swivel?
I paid $100 for a complete LHD RRC front axle, rotor to rotor. If you can find someone that wants to do the swap let me know, I would sell you the 'merican swivel for $50.
Seriously search for Euro knuckle. In those threads I saw some folks from OZ that want to do the conversion, but they need the American type dual arm swivel.
Pete

Larry, I got lucky by finding a RHD knuckle for $50 on my way to work :)
But, looking back, it appears like you could make high-steering similar to Dana 44 (people often do it along with SOA conversion), using the two bolt holes on top of the knuckle (that cover the kingpin).
The heim joints weren't that cheap, either - about $40 a pop.

Pete - here are some photos:


Thanks for the photos.

Problem with the Rover coil swivels is that the thread depth on those two bolts is pretty limited.

Pete

I'll take a look at the swivels without the drag link arm and see if there's enough material to drill and tap holes. But, that may be it - one would need a RHD knuckle to do this conversion.