Well the new shop is up, its a 30x60 metal building, 16 foot eave height, 18 foot center height, two 12x12 roll up doors, and a standard man door. Pics are below. The shop is gonna be used for heavy fab of trucks and also will see duty doing body work, as I specialize in custom one off body work. So light is very important. Teh shop will also have a 15x15 office, that will be raised 8 ft above the floor in the back corner, under teh office will be the machinery area, drill press, mini lathe, etc. I'll list below the electrical plan, and few questions , the more you guys help out the better.

Plan:

-Twelve (12) Metal Halide(sp) 400 Amp fixtures, spaced in three rows every 15 foot
-ten 8 foot high output flourescent lights, mounted 8 foot off the floor,they will be bolted to the wall, to try and throw light in shadowed places
-four 4 foot light in machinery area
-ten 240 outlets, each with it own 40 amp breaker
-thirty 110 outlets, 8 per breaker
-two 200 amp ,30 outlet boxes
-all 3/4" conduit
-all water tight outdoor boxes
-theres more but I can't think of it

Questions:

What size breaker for the 110 outlets and lights?
What wire size for 240 outlets?

http://fletcherscustoms.homestead.com/files/shop.JPG
http://fletcherscustoms.homestead.com/files/shop2.JPG

this picture you can see the foundation for the new house also, 1800 sq foot shop, 2200 sq ft house, in the middle of 36 acres
http://fletcherscustoms.homestead.com/files/shop3.JPG

Rather than a High bay type of fixture, look into a HO type of fluorescent.

Like these (http://www.acuitybrandslighting.com/lightware/Products/Product_Catalog/Family.asp?Brand=LL&Family=AFP)
or like these (http://www.acuitybrandslighting.com/lightware/Products/Product_Catalog/Family.asp?Brand=LL&Family=MS5%20R)

or these (http://www.acuitybrandslighting.com/lightware/Products/Product_Catalog/Family.asp?Brand=LL&Family=HB)

or even these (http://www.acuitybrandslighting.com/lightware/Products/Product_Catalog/Family.asp?Brand=LL&Family=MS5HB)

They consume less energy, produce more lumens (measure of light output) per watt of energy consumed, and are easier to hang. They are more expensive up front, but the operating cost and the light output will make it more than worthwhile to you.

Your lighting needs to be on 20A breakers.

2 panels probably won't be necessary, a 42 ckt panel will probably be sufficient.

For 40A circuits, you'll need #8 wire (you sure that's the right size circuit for these?)

thanks for the help. the plan was to run HO flourescents, but the local shop , told me I was going about it all the wrong way. These MH are supposed to be low bay style and give off better light. I was orginally going with 35 standard 8 footers.

My welder, plasma, and compressor all recommend 40 amp breakers, for the 220

flourescent makes more lumens per watt than metal halide? What school did you go to? MH all the way. Fabulous light. Have 6 in my 40x64 shop. I'd need dozens of flourescents to make as much light as those 6 do. Bulbs cost $11 and last 20 years. No cold start issues. Startup in seconds. I see no downside to them. You need a high ceiling though. Mine are mounted 14 feet up.

I think 12 MH will be nice, we will see by this weekend. Report back to you all next week. 12 in a 30x60 shop should be enough I hope

Disclaimer: I tend to go a little overboard on such things. Thats' because I rarely regret having "overdone" something, but if I get it done and then find it's not sufficient that ticks me off.

I'd say in a shop that size ten 240 outlets is not nearly enough. I've got a dozen in my 25x32 shop. In certain areas I wired the 240's in tandem, theory being I could run the welder and plasma both from basically the same location - not both going at the same time of course as that would overload the circuit, just meaning I could plug them into basically the same spot on the wall and not swap plugs or run leads great distances.

Second, you don't need each 240V on it's own breaker unless you're gonna have multiple guys working in the shop at once with 240V tools. You could put anywhere from 5-10 outlets on a single breaker, just think about how the shop is likely to be used and lay it out accordingly. But most of the time you'll probably just have awelder going or a plasma.

Your compressor should of course be on a dedicated circuit, probably only 30A

Third, plan for changing tools. My plasma recommends a 50A breaker. Who's to say one day you might not also own something bigger? Run 50A for all your 240V. The additional cost will be minimal, you'll just have to step up to 6ga wire.

Likewise, if you run 50A 240V circuits it's entirely conceivable you could have both a plasma and welder going at the same time on the same circuit, provided that neither machine is cranked up to it's max. I mean if you're just welding 3/16" and your buddy's cutting 1/8", both machines would probably not trip a 50A breaker even if run at the same time.

My .02.

If you're one who regrets overbuilding stuff, then go w the minimum and expand. I prefer to over-do it from the start, because there will inevitably be ONE day when you'll have lots of activity going on all at the same time and you'll be glad you ran all those outlets and increased circuit capacity.

BTW, sweet freakin' place! Exactly what I want, particularly the part about being in the middle of 36 acres. It always annoys me when people build right at the edge of a huge piece of land where everyone can see what you're doing. Give me a longer driveway, I'll deal w the maintenance.

There is a recent thread about shop lighting. MH is definitely the way to go if you are going to put your lights on and leave them on all day. They do have a cycle time so you can't flip them off and right back on. The new solid state ballasts are supposed to mitigate this but they are spendy still AFAIK.

Flourescents are not quite as efficient as MH but the difference is small. I'm not sure I would buy HO Flos with good, standard flourescent ballasts performing well and being cheap, but you have money so who knows. I don't know much about them but I do know that in order to get the intensity you want with Flos, you will have to stack them, and this has the advantage of mitigating 'point sources' of light. That is, you will get less shadows the more point sources you have.

Flos are not point sources because the light up all the way across, yes more intense in the middle but the light is spread. MH's are point source emitters but you have enough sq feet to require enough MH bulbs that shadows shouldn't be a problem. You don't notice HID lighting shadows in a factory or big shop because there are 100 bulbs up there. But in a shop where you may only have 3 or 4 bulbs, you will get shadows and dark spots.

IMO because of this Flos are the best solution even for that big nice shop you got there.

MH light is very nice, blueish white for standard MH bulbs and you can get wide spectrum bulbs that will give almost a perfect white light.

If you have a chance to see MH lighting somewhere definitely give a look and know what you're getting into, and try to apply it to your shop. I.e. reduce the number of bulbs, try to get down beside something that shadows most bulbs and see how the light is.

OTOH with MH, you can literally blast your shop with light and it will be bright everywhere, but realize that with point sources, in a shop to work on trucks, you will be look UP all the time, and that is another major disadvantage of MH bulbs. The biggies, 400w and up, will light-blind you in an instant.

That will never happen with Flos.

Yeah I still vote Flos all the way.

MH only makes sense if you have a factory where you run lights 24/7 and the small difference in efficiency actually works out to 5 figures a year or something like that.

flourescent makes more lumens per watt than metal halide? What school did you go to? MH all the way. Fabulous light. Have 6 in my 40x64 shop. I'd need dozens of flourescents to make as much light as those 6 do. Bulbs cost $11 and last 20 years. No cold start issues. Startup in seconds. I see no downside to them. You need a high ceiling though. Mine are mounted 14 feet up.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you, but will suggest that you do some more research on the new T5HO standard of fixtures that are now emerging into the market. Several retailers are moving to them, removing their MH fixtures and replacing them with these (*Home Depot and Wal Mart are 2 big players that I can think of right off hand)

Yes, I like high bays too, I've hung thousands of them over the years, and they do put out a lot of light, but the new fixtures are putting out more light and getting cheaper to operate all the time. One of the first exciting innovations that have come about from the energy cruch legislature that passed during the 1990's.

If you're one who regrets overbuilding stuff, then go w the minimum and expand. I prefer to over-do it from the start, because there will inevitably be ONE day when you'll have lots of activity going on all at the same time and you'll be glad you ran all those outlets and increased circuit capacity.

I agree with the overbuilding. Figure out what you need and then go 150%. Heck, just go ahead and double it. Chances are that a couple years down the road you'll be doing things you never considered now. If you're installing the stuff yourself, it is going to take you just as long to pull the wires either way. Ok, so the heavier gage takes a bit more effort and doubling the number of fixtures and receptacles takes some more time, but in the overall scheme of things it isn't going to take that much longer. If you're paying someone else to do it all then you're going to pay him to come back and change it and upgrade it and everything else.

BoilerMaker....

Check those MH Light spacings. 400 Watt every 15 feet might be too much light!

My building is 30' x 50', but back 10' x 30' will be enclosed office area... so the metal halide lights cover the 30' x 40' area. Basically six lights should be good, as I have 175W fixtures.

With your comment "three rows every 15 feet"...

With 30' wide building.... two rows down the 50' length. First row at 7', then at 22', 37, 52' basically 7' from end walls, 15' from each other. Now from the sides of the building 7' in, 15' apart, so at 7' & 22'. So I come up with eight lights.

I'm still mounting, looking, moving, etc. 14' side walls, but still pretty similiar to your shop. Still looking at using some floresent "instant on" for those times when you walk in, flip lights on, grab something, lights off, walk out. MH doesn't like that on/off. Noticed the age of the MH bulbs play a big role in how long they take to start up.

I have pictures of my shop up here (some make as yours, btw...). Expoxy floor (silver/gray) and the white insulation make it light up in there. Also read up on my bird issue.... before they move into your building! :)

Tom :usa:

I don't want to get into a pissing match either, but I installed my lights within the last couple years. I did all the research. I spoke to folks. Dad installed lots of flourescents in his new shop. I installed 6 400W metal halides. I know which shop I like working in. RE: too much light. My MH dealer was all set to sell me my requested 250W MH's. He said before he sold them to me: Don't forget, your eyes get less efficient as you get older. I upped to the 400W fixtures (same cost) and the decision was spot on. My spacing is 12ft on center. I light only the front 2/3 of the shop. Its perfect. Dad has high output 8ft fixtures about 4ft on center the length of the building. His shop is way darker than mine. Yes, flourescents are getting better in efficiency all the time, but MH is still on top, and the fact that the bulbs last 20 years and there are less of them than flourescents would be for the same lumens/ft, makes them a winner. Not to mention that I paid $60/fixture for those, and decent flourescents would be $80/fixture or more, and a hell of a lot more of them would be needed. To each his own, but MH still rules, IMHO.

Oh BTW, the HD and walmart that just went in here used MH too. Maybe it's a local thing.

Edit: The information I have found on T5HO vs HID at prolighting.com is misleading. Prolighting claims that HID's lose 45% of the initial 36,000 lumens and T5HO's lose only 6% of the initial 20,000 lumens. What they DON'T tell you is that the HID's lose the lumens over 20 years of bulb life, not all at once. The same goes for the T5's. Over the course of the 20 years, you will get more lumens under the curve with the HID's.

Not to mention that I paid $60/fixture for those, and decent flourescents would be $80/fixture or more, and a hell of a lot more of them would be needed. To each his own, but MH still rules, IMHO.

Where did you find the fixtures for $60/each? I was pricing around $250 each, major $$$$. I bought 10 surplus units (low bay 175W MH) for $400 for all 10. Not a bad deal.

Also on the bulbs.... how often do they need to be replaced? I have one bulb (newer one) that is "day light" spectrum, others have a slight "yellow" spectrum to them. Since they are used fixtures, good chance different bulbs.

How tall off the ground are the lights? I finally put mine on 10' centers, but they are 15' at the ground. Under the center of three.... no shadow at all... so debating stringing 8' apart over the work area.

Tom :usa:

A guy in Indianapolis named Joe Hurrle. He sells HID's on ebay. I called him up, and told him what I wanted. He had just gotten some in that matched my needs. They were used for 1 year, then taken down. 400W lowbays, with really nice refractors. He even threw in two new bulbs per fixture. I have lighting for 40 years! Bulbs last about 20 years each he said. He had some burning in his warehouse that had been there 40 years. They were pretty dim though. He said useful life is about 20 years, then pitch them and put new ones in, they are like brand new. Fixtures don't wear out, only the ballasts can go bad. Those aren't even that much to replace.

Well I ordered ten 400 low bay MH's today. Should be here sometime next week. I started running conduit today. My measurement tell me about 400 feet total to be used in the shop.

Thanks for all the ideas on what to do. Boy I need them.

Congrats on your place. It looks fantastic and I'm sure you will be happy with overdoing the lighting. Overkill is the only way to do things.

Someone mentioned the new T5 flos. We just relamped our entire factory (130,000') with those. Project was about $175,000. Power savings over the old "whatever was up there" will pay that back in about 9 months.

My 36'x40' (12' walls) shop has 16, 4' regular flos - the cheap ones. They just plug in. I figure that when a ballast finally goes, I'll just replace the whole fixture for $10. This was by far the cheapest way to go and I never have any problems with shadows. I do have two 4'x4' windows and windows in my two overheads - those help a lot.

Still can not take a photo of the lights. :flipoff2:

For any of the high bay or low bay fixtures you can get different lenses for them as well. The parobolic is great, reduces the spot light effect they have and cast the light all over the building.
Painting the floor a light grey and the walls white to reflect the light helps a lot as well.

Damn, with that many metal halides you better put on sunglasses before you go to work :smokin:

Its not a big issue, but its something to be aware of: http://www.news-medical.net/?id=1701

Nice choice with the MH. I have a couple for above my work area and I absolutly love them.

You might consider T8 Flourscents.... cheaper option.


"Metal halide fixtures work well in large buildings with high ceilings, and are available in very large wattages specifically designed for these locations. The downside is that the initial fixture cost is very high, replacement lamps are very expensive, lamp life is only half that of fluorescent (10,000 hours vs. 20,000 hours for T8 fluorescent), and quality of light is much lower. Metal halides typically have an average output of 45-55 lumens per watt; fluorescents have 85-90 lumens per watt.

Light quality is a measure of the ability of a lamp to render an object in a natural way, and is called the "color rendering index" or CRI. This is a scale from 0-100, with 100 being natural sunlight. Most metal halide lamps have a CRI of 65-70, while most T8 fluorescents are around 86. Light quality is *very* important in a shop! "

Another vote for Flo's..........Especially if you are going to do body work, you cannot see everything with the halides. Walking around a truck with a light in your hand is no fun :cool2:

Another vote for Flo's..........Especially if you are going to do body work, you cannot see everything with the halides. Walking around a truck with a light in your hand is no fun :cool2:


Funny you should mention that. When I had my truck in for PaintLess dent repair, they told me that the repair work would show up more in florescent light. :confused: Weird, huh?

Natural sunlight and other lights make it very hard to see. You basically see some little bumps that look like paint texture. But when its under florescent, you can see it easier. It's still hard to see, and you would never know unless I told you it was there, but I found that very interesting about the florescents.

I still love my MH for my work area (home shop), but I might have to check out the florescents you guys are recommending when I move and get a real shop. The MH just happens to be all I have right now. :p

If you do not mind me asking, how much was that building?

,$28,897

So in you guys opnions, how many and exactly what FLO's should I run. My Mh are on back order right now. SO I am still looking at options

Nice shop. Any reason you built the shop before the house?

Basically the shop guys got doen before the house contractor!!!

Nice shop. Any reason you built the shop before the house?

because wheelin' is more important than everything else...hehehe

what if you did some combination of the two lights like one row or column the length of your shop and one fixture would be flo and one MH or or whatever else you wanted??

am i smoking crack on this?? like everything, there are advantages and disadvantages to both. is there something better than one of these or both??

Well hell the MH came in and will start going in this week, if I get off my lazy butt and work some!!! I also got 12, 8 foot HO Flo's going in also. I figured while I am doing it why not go overboard. I'll get pics up in a few weeks when I get it all said and done!!

My $.02 on outlets, lights, ect...

Having worked (40-80 hours a week for a minimum of 4 weeks) in about 20 shops over the last 10 years, yeah I know but I need to be challenged, I have seen both the good and the bad. I would double the number of normal drops, at even intervals, of 220, 110, and 440 (if you use it) and the number of air line drops. I would also evenly light work and assembly benchs and supply 110, and air as well.

We have already done the 110 and 220 outlets!!! Let me see if I can put into words how we did it. Every 5 feet there is four 110 volt outlets, they are serperated two per breaker, for 4 boxes, so you got a total of 8 outlets on each breaker. 220 outlets are doubled every 10 feet so total of 24 total on the back and side walls, and 2 extra on the front wall between bay doors. The 220 ares done 4 per breaker and are split up all a long the wall so two on the same breaker are at least 30 ft apart, all #6 wire and 50 amp breakers. Its been a big learning experience, this is my first big undertaking in electrical department. So far we have ran over 1000 ft of conduit, about 500 ft of #6, and about 600 ft of 10/2. And we have not even started doing the lights. My only mistake so far was onlly using 3/4" conduit!!! It would not allow me to pull enough wire and I ended having a lot of conduit runs!!

The MH lights will result in pretty bad eye strain due to the spectrum emitted.

you will likely be better off with many fluorescents with mixed spectrum emitters-some cool-white, some warm white, etc. Also, try not to put the lights all in the same orientation as the polarization of the light may also lead to eyestrain.

I have mainly 4' fluorescents in my shop mounted in a semi-random fashion. IIRC, I have 11 or 12 lights mounted on the walls of a 1500 sq. foot room. Fairly well lit, but time for some more as there are some dark corners.

My dad sold industrial lighting for more than 20 years and I did too for a coupla months. A cool discipline, workspace lighting.

My MH's don't do anything to my eyes. Did all your MH's have refractor lenses on them? All the lights in our prototype shop are MH's and they all have refractors, and nobody complains... FWIW.

My MH's don't do anything to my eyes. Did all your MH's have refractor lenses on them? All the lights in our prototype shop are MH's and they all have refractors, and nobody complains... FWIW.

Metal Halides are less distracting than HPS, but not good. There was a study done on lighting in banks. When the banks went to a broad spectrum fluorescent, accounting accuracy increased and absenteeism dropped. I've been out of the lighting industry for a few years-I'm sure that more studies have been done since. MH and HPS are popular for one reason and one reason only-they're efficient and that equals cheap to run!

Artificial lighting, unless carefully spec'd has the same effect on your eyes as fingernails on a blackboard to your ears.

My shop has a broad mix of fluorescent lights mounted at random angles and intervals to reduce eyestrain.

Yesterday I replaced all of the flo tubes in my shop yesterday (24 of them) with phillips "daylight" 40W tubes.... made a huge difference. The light is more blue than yellow and I feel it more resembles true daylight. I would reccomend them.

Yesterday I replaced all of the flo tubes in my shop yesterday (24 of them) with phillips "daylight" 40W tubes.... made a huge difference. The light is more blue than yellow and I feel it more resembles true daylight. I would reccomend them.

Bingo-if you can afford to go this route, do it. Anything with a CRI above 90 will be easy on the eyes. Mixing various types of fluorescents can mimic the more expensive lights by taking advantage of the various spectrums of each type of tube.

Still can not take a photo of the lights. :flipoff2:


http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=189551&stc=1



your shop is built like mine, how did you mount your plugs without a horizontal bar at a decent height?

go to fletcherscustoms.homestead.com and click the shop link or misc , hell I cannot remember