Converting a 1/2ton 9.25 to 8 lug pattern

[ffdustyw]

Anyone know who I would need to talk to to convert my 5 on 5.5 lugs 9.25 to and 8 lug pattern? Has anyone done this?

[Elwenil]

Why would you want to? The 9 1/4 is a POS axle, and what good is 8 lug if you don't get the advantage of a full floating axle? Get a Dana 60 and call it good.

[mondtster]

I believe that all you should have to do is go and get a set of axles from a light duty 3/4 ton truck or a van with a semi floating axle and you should be set.

Depending on what the new axles may cost, you may be better off just looking for a dana 60 or some other axle that is full floating and has more gear ratio selections. The lowest you can currently go is 4.56 which may not be low enough depending on what you are wanting to do.

[GRMhick]

yup. New shafts and drums. Heck you can even keep all the shoes and backing plate off the old brakes.

and I dont understand the POS comment. Compared to the chevy 1/2 ton axles, its awesome.

[ffdustyw]

For starters I have a front D60 ready to swap in and i don't want to have to carry two different spare tires if I get a flat. I would like to save some money. I could through one of my 14 bolts in but I would have to swap gears and buy another locker.
I already have my 9.25 set up with a detroit and 4.56's. THAT SAVES ME MONEY. I expected a comment like the 60 comment. I have had my 9.25 with the Detroit for 5 years and have never broken an axle. So I will take the POS comment and totally disreguard. It has been a great axle. The 9.25 is about the same strength as the D60 unless I spend the money to upgrade to 35 spline shafts in the D60.

I believe that all you should have to do is go and get a set of axles from a light duty 3/4 ton truck or a van with a semi floating axle and you should be set.

Depending on what the new axles may cost, you may be better off just looking for a dana 60 or some other axle that is full floating and has more gear ratio selections. The lowest you can currently go is 4.56 which may not be low enough depending on what you are wanting to do.
I will check into the 3/4 ton components. As far as the gearing options go I do not need anything lower than 4.56. I have an Atlas II if I need reduction gearing on obstacles. The 4.56 keep her friendly on the road.

[ramv]

Why would you want to? The 9 1/4 is a POS axle, and what good is 8 lug if you don't get the advantage of a full floating axle? Get a Dana 60 and call it good.


Next time think before you post.

The 9.25" is rated to 50% more axle torque then the 30 spline 60.

I broke one shaft on my 9.25" in 3 years of wheeling, with 37" Krawlers, it was on the Ultimate Adventure last year and the flange had been bent for a long time.

Anyway, tech: I looked into doing this as well, you need to get stock shafts from a '94-'95 LD Ram 2500 also the drums. None of the local autoparts store could find them for me, so I would suggest the junk-yard.

I'm going with a 70 from a '98 ram just because I only had 4.10s, and was thinking of going deepr, also thought since I broke one, I might as well upgrade.

[76dodgecrew4u]

The 9.25 is about the same strength as the D60 unless I spend the money to upgrade to 35 spline shafts in the D60

NO WAY!!! The D60 is only matched by the 14 bolt, the sterling 10.25 and a D70 or D80. Its like saying a 12 bolt chevy is just as strong as a dana 60 or a ford 9 in. is as strong as a 60. You have to modify any other axle to make it as strong as a stock 60. I guarantee that if I had a 9 1/4 behind my 440 it would twist it all up.

The Dana 60 features full floating axles which better distribute overall vehicle weight and any additional cargo weight. I love Mopar and would push a Dodge before driving anything else, but the 9 1/4 is a very mediocre axle. I had a 98 Dodge with just over 40k and the pinion bearing lost its preload, sheared the pinion at the yoke and spilled 80-90 all over the highway. This was without any load at all. I have come realize this is a common problem mainly with the 94 and up trucks, I don't know why either.
I have seen 8-lug dodge vans with a 9 1/4 8-lug, but van axles are narrower. I think I have seen one Dodge truck in a yard with the same combo and I have been scrounging parts for 15 years.
Sure Moser or Strange could make what you need but then you have nothing more than alot of good money thats kinda wasted. With 4.56 gears it wouldn't take much to twist that pinion all up, but you could buy that Chromoly yoke that Mancini sells, again thats more money. I could only see spending the time/money on your Dodge corporate axle if you are all show, but I use my truck and use it hard, the last thing I want to replace is a broken rear axle. Even after you swap the D60 in the front, the rear will always be a weak point. The 9 1/4 was developed to be a what it is---"Adequate for daily light truck use" this is straight out of a late 1973 TSB put out by Chrysler.

I'm not knocking you for building up a 9 1/4, I just don't like the use of a crush sleeve instead of shim packs to determine pinion preload. I would convert to the D60 simply for strength, insurance on the trail and because it just sounds better to say, " Dual Dana equipped"

[76dodgecrew4u]

I'm going with a 70 from a '98 ram just because I only had 4.10s, and was thinking of going deepr, also thought since I broke one, I might as well upgrade.

Even though he said it was a good axle look at the end result.

[lmagee]

NO WAY!!! The D60 is only matched by the 14 bolt, the sterling 10.25 and a D70 or D80. "

Sorry the dana 60 is not even in the same class as a 14 bolt , a 70 or 80. A dana 60 rear has dana 44 size 30 spline axles, weak stuff. I would rather run a 9.25 than a 60 for strength reasons other than it being c-clip. The 9.25 shafts are rated for more tourque than the dana 60 30 spline shafts

[KB440]

Dusty I check on this as well before going to a D70. From Napa the 8-lug shaft are the same length and $120 ea. The 8-lug drums use the same brakes and were $64 ea. That's all that's needed.

[GRMhick]

a 9.25" has 1.5" shafts, tapered down to 1.31".

I have had no problems in 125k miles on mine. I pull a 6k trailer with my dodge too.

minus the C-clip part, it is as good as a 9". It will laugh as a 12 bolt.

It IS as strong or stronger than a dana 60, even a full floating. Sure the hubs are stronger on a 60, but that doesnt do you any good when you break a 60 shaft at the flange (same place a 9" breaks).

the 9", dana 60, sterling 9.75" and 9.25" are all about even in strength.

the 35 spline 60, 70, 80, 14 bolt, sterling 10.25, etc are all in about the same strength boat again.

to compare a 9.25" to a 12 bolt is like comparing a 4.0 i6 to a 5.2 v8. There really is no comparision.


And i am sorry your 9.25" lost a pinion bearing, but it probabally had a tracloc, which exploded. and trac loc's suck ass, not the 9.25".

[ffdustyw]

Dusty I check on this as well before going to a D70. From Napa the 8-lug shaft are the same length and $120 ea. The 8-lug drums use the same brakes and were $64 ea. That's all that's needed.
Thanks for the info. I will be checking into it. This is much cheaper than building another axle right now.

As far as the debate goes I do plan on eventually changing out the rear to a D60 with 35 spline shafts and disk brakes. I just don't have the funds to do it right now. All my money was wrapped up in the Atlas II and new drivelines earlier this year and the D60 ARB and 4.56 gears.
I will just say this I have seen a stock D60 with a lock right snap axles under the weight of a XJ on 37's. I doubt that it would do much better under the weight on my fullsize Dodge in stock form.
And no way in hell is a D60 in the same class as far as the strength of a 14 bolt in stock form.

[Elwenil]

Next time think before you post.


Think before I post? I don't need to think about it. I have experience. In my opinion the 9 1/4 IS a POS axle. It was originally designed as a car axle for the larger C bodies, and I think it is a poor choice for a truck. My main problem with the 9 1/4 is the weak pinion bearings and the crush sleeve that never seems to hold the correct preload. This is a common problem and everyone knows about it and can't say they've never heard of it. Go to any used car dealership and find a half ton Dodge with an automatic and shift from reverse to drive. The horrible clunking noise? Yeah, that's slack in the rear end caused by the pinion bearings getting loose. I've seen it in trucks with less than 30K miles. If an owner complains about it, Dodge will tell you that it is normal. It's not, and if you bitch about it enough they will replace the axle assembly. I've seen it many times, and I know that it is not normal because I was told that by our Mopar Parts field rep. when I was a Parts Manager at our local Dodge dealership. Every truck I have owned that had the 9 1/4 either had too much slack, or it howled like a dog under load. I've had several open 9 1/4s, two with the factory limited slip, 1 with a LockRight, and one with a Auburn HP limited slip. I've never been happy with any of them. I have the papers from my '84 Ramcharger that was a Virginia Game and Inland Fisheries truck and all the maintenence records with it. The truck had 280,000 miles when I got it and was on it's second engine and it's 5th 9 1/4 axle. The first one was a factory limited slip and it was blamed for the axle coming apart, so it was replaced with a open rear. There were no notes on why the other 4 went bad. on my '88 W150 show truck, I would have to replace the crush sleeve about every 8000 miles to keep the slack from getting out of hand. Granted, the 9 1/4 was not designed to handle 39s and 4.56s under a very heavy show truck, but I would think it would see the same sort of stress in an off road application. (This is an "Extreme Rockcrawling" site, is it not?) Naturally you can out enough money into anything to make it do what you want, but the fact that it has the pinion bearing problems and is still just a C clip semi floater make the 9 1/4 a poor choice for a truck. When I bought my '74 W100 I made sure it had the large bolt pattern 8 3/4" axle because if it had a 9 1/4 under it for some reason, I wouldn't have bought it. The 8 3/4 is a car axle also, but is much stronger and will take a lot more abuse than the 9 1/4. My whole point is that the D60 is a much better choice since it is a full floating 4500 lbs axle with larger brakes and a wider range of gear and locker choices. Before I would spend money swapping over a bunch of stuff to make a 8 lug 9 1/4, I'd just keep that money in my pocket and add to it later and get a D60. Ffdusty, you said yourself you don't plan to keep the 9 1/4, so why put money into it? If you have the van axle laying around already, then it may not cost you much. I may be wrong, but for some reason I was thinking that the van axles were wider. If so that would make swapping shafts more difficult. After all of this arguement I'll end my post with this. The '74 W200 I have has 176,000 miles on it. I bought it from the original owner's son. It was bought new at the dealership where I worked, and was well known in the area. I know the total history behind the truck. It was mainly used to push snow and haul gravel and hay on the owner's farm for all it's life. The D60 has had nothing done to it except brakes and wheel bearings, and the bed has been replaced twice. Once from road salt rusting it out and once from hauling too much weight and it buckled the bed sides outward. That's about all the testament I need to the Dana 60's strength. I expect to still get a lot of life out of this axle once I swap it under my W100.

[ramv]

You are my hero. Breathe.

What can I tell you, other then the No slip in mine, everything is original, 100 000 + miles. 30 spline 60s will not stand up to the torque the 9.25" will in a wheelin envirnoment. Yes they will haul more weight, but I thought this was a rock crawlin site, not a tow/haul site.

[Elwenil]

Hmmm, well lets think for a minute. If you put more weight on an axle, it will take more torque to move the truck. Simple physics, it will take less force to move something with lighter weight. The 9 1/4s ring gear may take a lot of torque before breaking something, but the fact is that it crushes the crush sleeve more and the pinion loses preload. No, it may not come apart then, but if that damage is not repaired, it will only get worse. The D60 does not seem to have this problem because it's preload is set by shims and the whole thing would fly apart before you could crush them anymore. With all of that said, even if the 9 1/4 and D60 could haul the same, take the same torque, and have the same durability, I would still take the D60 over the 9 1/4 for safety reasons. If you snap an axle on the 9 1/4 your wheel is either going to fall off immediately, or it will walk out of the housing. Either way you loose support for the vehicles weight on that corner and more importantly, you loose braking ability, especially with drum brakes. If you snap an axle on the D60, you fish out the broken inner piece, and if you have a locker, you can probably limp home. At the very least you still have a truck that can be winched/towed and can stop itself. So to clarify myself, the D60 in my opinion is a better axle for hauling on road because of it stronger housing and pinion shim preload, and is a better off road axle because of the wide selection of gears and lockers and it's full floating design. I can see no reason why one would choose the 9 1/4 over the D60 for either application. They are very similar in size and weight and both are still readily available in the boneyards. The D60 may cost a little more, but to me the advantages far outweigh the increased cost. Naturally if the 9 1/4 is all you have, by all means make do with what you have, but I wouldn't put any money in what is, to me, and inferior axle.

[GRMhick]

I dont see why you are so damn anal about the crush sleve. I have only heard of one person having a problem with a 9.25". IN fact my buddy has 280k miles on his with no problems.

And yes, I got that clunk at about 105k miles. I am waiting for the axle to blow up before I replace it. I will bet it will last longer than I have the truck.

also, the 8.75" uses the same pinion and bearing assembily as the 9.25", so you have some shitty reasoning why you wanted that 74 so bad.

And sure there is the advantage that the dana 60 is better because you can get off the trail when you break a shaft, but the fact of the matter is that your much less likely to break a shaft on a 9.25". Plus it sucks ass when the recoil from breaking a dana 60 takes out your detroit locker.

[76dodgecrew4u]

A 741 and 724 case 8 3/4'" axles DO NOT use a crush sleeve! The 489 case is the only setup that runs a crush sleeve and I have never seen, heard or read about one losing the preload like a 9 1/4. Alot of people with these axles will never know their crush sleeve is defective, it may last 200k but it will always be powder keg that may explode at anytime.

30 spline 60s will not stand up to the torque the 9.25" will in a wheelin envirnoment. Yes they will haul more weight, but I thought this was a rock crawlin site, not a tow/haul site
Why do 90% of all trail rigs run them?

Any axle will break if pushed too hard. According to every 94 and up ram owner that has posted, the 9 1/4 may be stronger ( I fail to see that, but thats there opinion) but what good does it if the pinion is constanly failing?

Hell, I know a 60 has its weakness, again every axle does! So I run a D70 only because I want a bulletproof drivetrain.

Elwenil and myself are just fighting an uphill battle...

I think alot of the stubborness come from the fact that you can't pick up a 94 and up D60 cheap so these guys make due with the 9 1/4"
I can pick up early d60's for $50 a piece from the crusher yard, I quit pulling them because what do I need 50 d-60's for? I hate to see crushed, but you can't save them all.

[Elwenil]

Thank you, 76dodgecrew4u. Also another reason I wanted the 8 3/4 is I have half a dozen center chunks of various ratios to replace it with from my street racing days. I'm not trying to seem anal about the crush sleeve, I just see it as a major weakness since I have had nothing but trouble out of them in several trucks and it was a common complaint from customers even in the newer BR1500 Rams. Besides, if the 9 1/4 was so wonderful, why didn't Dodge just add heavier tubes and use it in all the 3/4 ton trucks? It's just my opinion that the 9 1/4 sucks because it has failed in just about every application I have had one in. I'm sure that with the right maintenance one could last in certain applications for a good long time. Especially if you are willing to ignore the clunking noises, but I for one see abnormal noises as a sign that something has gone wrong. For all of you who want to keep your 9 1/4s, good luck and thank you. It will leave more D60s for the rest of us.

[GRMhick]

= Besides, if the 9 1/4 was so wonderful, why didn't Dodge just add heavier tubes and use it in all the 3/4 ton trucks?

They did for about 10 years.

and I am not saying the 9.25" is a wonderful axle. In fact I only run it because its in my truck. I am just saying i have yet to have any problems with it (this is comming from a guy who breaks a ring and pinion on every wheeling trip in his trail rig).

And the rest of the ram isnt anything to ride home about. I am just happy my rear end is holding up this well.

[American]

Tell ya what. You can bitch and moan all you want, but this guy asked as simple fucking question for a good reason. HE hasn't had any problems out of his 9.25" yet, and so he is swapping the shit that is breaking (d60 swap). These guys (RamV, GRM, ffdustyw) are all extremely knowledgable about Dodge trucks, especially 94-02's. They all like to wheel hard, and they know their shit. I can count on being able to PM them on either this board or PS.com and know that their advice will be of a reliable source. You are talking shit to them for no reason, and you are making yourself look stupid.

At Pavementsucks, we are a bunch of guys with late model Dodges (mostly). 80% of us wheel our rigs, and I'd say that these three guys are of the more hardcore wheelers of the site. They know what brakes on a 94-02 Dodge... OBVIOUSLY YOU DO NOT.

So shut up, and answer the question... or move on.
If you are talking shit to be cool: You're not.
If you are talking shit to be an ass hole: You are.

[76dodgecrew4u]

Nobody is talking shit. This has been a point and counter point discussion the whole way. I run trucks from 1972-1980 because there cheap and plentiful. Elwenil sounds like the same kind of guy. I have had my share of problems with the new stuff and felt that I might illustrate those problems to give a fellow wheeler another opinion. He ( ffdustyw) is a big boy, if he don't like what we are saying he can tell us. If nobody ever spoke up about the problems they have with there rig or past rigs they have owned, then having a tech forum would be worthless. Maybe somebody else has read this post and learned something they may never have been aware of.
Who are you to say that is wrong?
I could understand your brash comments if we called anybody names or told them there idea was stupid, but we have done nothing like that.

Dusty I check on this as well before going to a D70. From Napa the 8-lug shaft are the same length and $120 ea. The 8-lug drums use the same brakes and were $64 ea. That's all that's needed.

This good advice.. convert your truck to 8-lug and let us know how easy/hard it was. Hell I got a good suggestion, take pictures and do a tech write up on it.
Let close this thread and stop the hostility.

[ramv]

A couple of thoughts, maybe more tech related.

1) As american pointed out, all the pro guys were running '94+ trucks. Could Dodge possibly have changed the pinion bearing/crush sleeve design for these? I found out the '94+ D70 bearing changed as I drove across the city twice today to get one since my install kit came with the more std style.

2) You see a lot of 60s for the reasons you keep pointing out, extremely cheap, readily available, lots of gear/locker choices. No one is arguing against that. 9.25s are much rarer, and not the right swap for most (no narrow 5 on 4.5 like the 8.8, very few 8 lug) However, it has been noted in several tables, as well as from real world experience people tend to snap more STOCK 30 spline 60 shafts in identical situations. Now, can you beef a 60 stronger? Absolutely. My brother has a great junkyard example, that is a FF with 35 spline 70 shafts, disc brakes, etc all for less then most of us spent on a gear set.

3) A stock D60 is in no way comparable to a D70, 14 bolt FF or Visteon 10.25/10.5.

4) Failure on most broken 9.25" shafts comes at the minor spline diameter, ~ 1.30" indicating excessive torque (they neck down to this point, at the inner bearing, so it is only seeing torsional loading) 30 spline 60 failures also occur at th neck down which is ~ 1.19" ( feel free to check those figures, they are close but may be slightly off). By strict mechanical analysis, clearly the smaller area/diameter will be a more likely failure point.

My original intentions were to do a 8 lug swap on mine using chromo shafts. No one makes these however, the only 8 lug shafts are mild steel, which I had extremely good luck with in 5 lug, however I wanted to upgrade at the same time. Then I came across a 70 housing cheap, but as clean as my truck is right now with the 60 front and 9.25" rear I wish I had of just spent the $250 on shafts and drums and done the 8 lug conversion.

THe 70/detroit combo should be stout, and the 5.13s should be nice, but the 9.25" w/ 4.10s worked awesome for me for 100k+ miles and 3 years of hard wheeling and I'll miss my parking brake and great ground clearance. Still original bearings, carrier, seals and gears and no leaks, play or issues.

[American]

Nobody is talking shit. This has been a point and counter point discussion the whole way. I run trucks from 1972-1980 because there cheap and plentiful. Elwenil sounds like the same kind of guy. I have had my share of problems with the new stuff and felt that I might illustrate those problems to give a fellow wheeler another opinion. He ( ffdustyw) is a big boy, if he don't like what we are saying he can tell us. If nobody ever spoke up about the problems they have with there rig or past rigs they have owned, then having a tech forum would be worthless. Maybe somebody else has read this post and learned something they may never have been aware of.
Who are you to say that is wrong?
I could understand your brash comments if we called anybody names or told them there idea was stupid, but we have done nothing like that.



This good advice.. convert your truck to 8-lug and let us know how easy/hard it was. Hell I got a good suggestion, take pictures and do a tech write up on it.
Let close this thread and stop the hostility.
YOu weren't the guy who I was referring to bro. No worries.

[Elwenil]

I assume I was the guy then. I still don't see anyone "talking shit" but you, Amerrican. Are you "talking shit" to be cool or to be an asshole? I'm confused on that point. So far this discussion has been just that, a discussion. We have one side expressing their ideas and opinions, and then we have the other side doing the same. No one here has been cussing at one another of even getting hot under the collar that I can tell. Well at least until you showed up. As for the newer '94 and up Rams, no I don't fool with them much. I dealt with them a lot at the dealer, and I was there for the launch, but I prefer the '70s to early '90s models for simplicity and they are much cheaper and in some cases more durable. I've been doing this for over 15 years and I do have some deep set opinions on a few things, but you can't learn anything with a closed mind. I enjoy this type of discussion since it is a good way for everyone to learn something and learn the how and why behind it. There are a lot of good people here that have a wide variety of knowledge about Mopars in general. There are also a lot of people here that have no useful knowledge to apply and prefer to "talk shit" and run off at the mouth like some teenager with a bad attitude. Naturally I prefer the latter. I fail to see how posting a rant in this thread about not answering a man's question is useful when you offer no tech at all. If you are here to defend your friends, that's fine, but I don't think that they need it as they seem well informed and know what they are talking about. All in all I think we have all proved our case. The 9 1/4 may be a good rear end in the right application and is cost effective. The D60 may also be a good rear in the right application and has a few extra features that I think are nice, but does generally cost a little more. I think that pretty much sums it up. I have a lot of respect for GRM and a lot of these other guys that provide free knowledge and advice, here for the asking. On the other hand, I have no respect for the guys who come on here cussing and talking trash for no useful purpose. I think it is pretty obvious to all here that Pirate 4x4 has a bad reputation for flamers and idiots. Still, there are a lot of good people here that need help and a lot of good people that can provide that help. The only reason I am here is to try and help out with what I know, and in that way I honor those that I have learned from and can pass on some of that knowledge. Now, with that taken care of, lets continue with the topic at hand.

[ffdustyw]

I have to agree with the crush sleeve issue in the 9.25. I had excessive slop in the meshing of the gears a while back. I had to pull the pinion crush sleeve out, mash it back out and then retorque it back to the correct torque. Never had to buy a new one. It has worked like a champ for a years so far with no slop. I know its shade tree as hell but it works.
Like Elminil said he is speaking from his own experiences and personally I would feel the same way about the 9.25 if I had that many problems with it. You have to be the most unlucky 9.25 owner on the face of the planet. Personally I have had pretty good luck with it and I live by the saying "don't fix it if it aint broke". So when it does break I will be swaping to the D60 with a set of CM shafts.

[SolidAxleDurango]

Coupla things.... Prolly not adding any value here, but what the heck... This thread looks fun. :D

Elwenil, I have ADD and there's no fucking way I'm reading anything you typed. There might be good info in there... Might even be GREAT info in there... But until you break it up or use paragraphs or something, there's no way I can concentrate on it.... Jeebus!!

About the 9.25. I had one for about 60k miles. Put 4.56 gears in it. Also locked it. Did great. No probs what-so-ever. No broken shafts. No pinion probs. Oh... Ok... it seeped out the rubber plug! :D Swapped for a 60, but not an ordinary 60. Specs in sig. Also put in a 5 on 5.5 44 up front. So, to do this up front and NOT run full width (I didn't) would require custom work to keep the 9.25 (not a simple matter of finding the correct JY shafts)... So I elected to upgrade all around.

IF shafts are your problems... then yes, an upgrade is in order... But I wouldn't expect a (stock) 9" or 60 to do you any better. That's really a lateral move.

IF pinion preload is your problem, then get some driving lessons and keep your driveshaft/pinion snout out of the rocks!!! :flipoff2:

[ffdustyw]

IF pinion preload is your problem, then get some driving lessons and keep your driveshaft/pinion snout out of the rocks!!!
I don't think the crush sleeve problem had anything to do with wheeling or driving. I was having a problem with a leaking pinion seal and had to change it 3 times in a short amount of time finally putting in a speedy sleeve. I think in the process the crush sleeve got mashed further than it was intended. Another thing you can do to prevent it from over crushing is when you torque your yoke check the play and lock tight the nut where the gears mesh the best. It works "Done it". I believe that the crush sleeve is set at 300 pounds if I am not mistaken. Alot more than an impact gun will produce. After you change your yoke keep an eye on the amount of heat build up in your pumpkin after a trip on the highway (put your hand on the side of the pumpkin). If there is too much then there is most likely to much slop.

[SolidAxleDurango]

I don't think the crush sleeve problem had anything to do with wheeling or driving....

A decent bang or drag (or several) will definately cause wear/slop in that crush sleeve...

[GRMhick]

A decent bang or drag (or several) will definately cause wear/slop in that crush sleeve...

Sounds right. I never had a noise out of mine until I bashed the driveshaft on a rock and wedged the truck's pinion yoke against a rock.