My seriously newbie style question.... [Archive]

Cliffy [JD]

02-28-2002, 10:26 PM

Ok I feel stupid for asking this, but I'm more of a fabricator and builder than anything else. IE: I can build an engine from the ground up and it'll run sweet. But when it comes to diagnosing Electrical type problems I'm usually the UGLY DUCKLING......

So here's my question.

My 345 is giving me really hard starts, to where I end up flooding it, or running my battery dry. At first I'm sure it was because of my gas tank issues, but I've got that straightened out and I'm still having troubles.

Here's what I've done.

Flushed Fuel system COMPLETELY (even rebuilt carb twice!!)

Put in new plugs

New cap

New Rotor

New Coil

Still getting hard starts....WHY!!!

I gapped the plugs at .032 or 32 whichever you want to call it, is that too big.

Here's a clue (I think): When I FINALLY get it running it's as smooth as a baby's ass (Believe me I have an 8 month old) and sounds GREEEEAAAAAT! but it's such a biatch to get there.

I've looked into the PERTRONIX system and it sounds like a good idea (Especially since I HATE points; once again that's just me) and for not too steep a price either ($79.00), until you add the COIL (another $79.00)

So what other tips have you got for me.

Old Scout; you brag about being a Scout God of sorts "After runnning IH for over 22 years I think my ""I think"" is a closer answer than other guys ""Exact date"" ......" In reference to the "unimproved cooling intake" (I believe)

So help me out here guys, what am I missing

New battery, plug wires, points, and why when it does get running does it run so sweet?!?!?!?!?

This is my first IH engine so I'm kinda :confused: I need HEI!!

Thanks in advance.;) :beer:

HarleyM

02-28-2002, 10:37 PM

I'm taking a guess here that it is electronic ignition. Does it have the little brain box that is mounted on the firewall? If it has this brain box that is probably what is giving you fits. I had a 76 ferd that did exactly what you are describing. Replaced the box and never had another problem. I'll state now that I've never messed with a scoutII, so don't hammer me to hard if it is a different type of ignition.

jdjanda

02-28-2002, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by Cliffhanger
Ok I feel stupid for asking this, but I'm more of a fabricator and builder than anything else. IE: I can build an engine from the ground up and it'll run sweet. But when it comes to diagnosing Electrical type problems I'm usually the UGLY DUCKLING......

So here's my question.

My 345 is giving me really hard starts, to where I end up flooding it, or running my battery dry. At first I'm sure it was because of my gas tank issues, but I've got that straightened out and I'm still having troubles.

Here's what I've done.

Flushed Fuel system COMPLETELY (even rebuilt carb twice!!)

Put in new plugs

New cap

New Rotor

New Coil

Still getting hard starts....WHY!!!

I gapped the plugs at .032 or 32 whichever you want to call it, is that too big.

Here's a clue (I think): When I FINALLY get it running it's as smooth as a baby's ass (Believe me I have an 8 month old) and sounds GREEEEAAAAAT! but it's such a biatch to get there.

I've looked into the PERTRONIX system and it sounds like a good idea (Especially since I HATE points; once again that's just me) and for not too steep a price either ($79.00), until you add the COIL (another $79.00)

So what other tips have you got for me.

Old Scout; you brag about being a Scout God of sorts "After runnning IH for over 22 years I think my ""I think"" is a closer answer than other guys ""Exact date"" ......" In reference to the "unimproved cooling intake" (I believe)

So help me out here guys, what am I missing

New battery, plug wires, points, and why when it does get running does it run so sweet?!?!?!?!?

This is my first IH engine so I'm kinda :confused: I need HEI!!

Thanks in advance.;) :beer:

Idle screws or timing, did you time off number 8?

tsm1mt

02-28-2002, 10:52 PM

Once you get it running, it's good to go?

And if you shut it off for a moment, then restart it, does it fire right up?

Is it only giving you a fit when it's sat for a day? Maybe just overnight even?

If that's the case.. the carb bowl is draining out. Mine has this wonderful feature as well.

Could be as simple as a loose fuel line clamp between the pump and carb.

I *thought* I re-tightened my clamp and it would fix my problem, but I guess I didn't get it..

Could be a worn out pump.

On my racer, which may go a month or two w/o running, I have an electric fuel pump.

Fire up the electric pump, wait a moment until it primes the carb, give it a pump or two, hit the push botton, and cover your ears.

Starts every time that way.

-Tom

AgaveHound

03-01-2002, 01:27 AM

I agree with the fuel draining out idea. I just fixed mine by tightening up the fuel line clamps. It was a bear to fire up in the morning, but not a problem when the fuel filter was full. When it's difficult to start, can you check for fuel in your in-line filter, if you have one?

Also, even if it runs good when fired up, try advancing the timing a bit...but only a little at a time! What's your point gap at? It 'should be' gapped at .016" if I remember correctly.

Also, try opening up the spark plug gap to a least .035". Mine ran like crap gapped at .035" for some reason, but after I opened it up it ran much better. Now I run it at .047-.050" or so, but I'm pushing 40k(?) volts through it too. I'm running the Pertronix, Super Stock coil and Autolite 85's.

From what I've read, the main purpose of HEI is to push more volts through the system. More volts = bigger usable spark plug gap = bigger/hotter spark = more efficient fuel burn.

But WTF do I know? I'm a NEWBIE! :flipoff2: :p :flipoff2:

Good luck

Cliffy [JD]

03-01-2002, 08:25 AM

Ok I may have to agree here about the bowel draining. It has a new Fuel Pump on it (I just forgot to mention that) but I crawled under after reading this and noticed that my flare fitting on the hardline is leaking a bit.:(

Thanks for the tips

I will also check for a "brain box" as I've read about this in the BB, but after the latest thread from them maybe I should dismiss it. :eek:

muskyman

03-01-2002, 08:41 AM

If you want to confirm the bowl leakdown , the best way is let it set a few days then pull the carb off and look down in the manifold...bet you see a puddle of gas....leak down it is

pitch the little gold box! (ignition)

it may not be your problem now(they are correct on the bowl leak down I'd bet)

but it will go bad at a bad time...they always do

and get the standard holley points distributor

then use the points to ground the square wave trigger wire on a jacobs ignition, and kiss all your ignition problems good bye.

I did this years ago and it has to be the the best system I'v dealt with...it makes great power...boosted torque and made the motor so much more driveable at ultra low rpm on the trail.

it just never wants to stall...even underwater.

Brandonw

03-01-2002, 10:46 AM

Cliffy [JD]

03-01-2002, 12:22 PM

Like I said, I'm gonna look into the Pertronix system, that should eliminate the BOX and boost power a bit.

It's a QJ off of a 90-ish chevy van w/a 5.0. On top of a 392 4bbl intake.

Yeah I've seen the puddle of gas you referred to. So that puddle leaking into my intake is caused (most likely) by the fact that my fule pump is leaking??? hmmmmm
:usa:

Hooper

03-01-2002, 04:48 PM

He said he had new points. That rules out a gold box.

Hooper

03-01-2002, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by Cliffhanger
Like I said, I'm gonna look into the Pertronix system, that should eliminate the BOX and boost power a bit.

It's a QJ off of a 90-ish chevy van w/a 5.0. On top of a 392 4bbl intake.

Yeah I've seen the puddle of gas you referred to. So that puddle leaking into my intake is caused (most likely) by the fact that my fule pump is leaking??? hmmmmm
:usa:

Can't see how a puddle of gas in the intake could be related to a leak at the fuel pump.

tsm1mt

03-01-2002, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by Hooper

Can't see how a puddle of gas in the intake could be related to a leak at the fuel pump.

Yep. Two leaks to look for.

One is worn throttle shaft bushings and/or bowl gaskets- when you shut it down, the fuel leaks out of the ends of the "butterflies" and spills onto and into the intake.

The other is a loose clamp or fitting between the bowl needle and the fuel pump, which allows the fuel to drain down/back/out.

Hooper

03-01-2002, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by tsm1mt

Yep. Two leaks to look for.

One is worn throttle shaft bushings and/or bowl gaskets- when you shut it down, the fuel leaks out of the ends of the "butterflies" and spills onto and into the intake.

The other is a loose clamp or fitting between the bowl needle and the fuel pump, which allows the fuel to drain down/back/out.

I'm not following. Do you mean that since there is a leak at the fuel pump fitting, it kills the suction in the fuel line which would otherwise prevent a carb leak down?

I assumed since he said he crawled under that the leak was at the fuel pump end, not the carb end.

Not sure how a fuel leak at the fuel pump end would cause a carb to leak into the manifold.

I do understand how a worn carb can leak into the manifold, just not how the fuel pump leak is related..

tsm1mt

03-01-2002, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by Hooper

I'm not following. Do you mean that since there is a leak at the fuel pump fitting, it kills the suction in the fuel line which would otherwise prevent a carb leak down?

I assumed since he said he crawled under that the leak was at the fuel pump end, not the carb end.

Not sure how a fuel leak at the fuel pump end would cause a carb to leak into the manifold.

I do understand how a worn carb can leak into the manifold, just not how the fuel pump leak is related..

I don't think they're related. He might have TWO leaks. :D

If it's IN the intake, it's in the carb.

If it's ON the intake, it could be the carb, or just a loose fuel fitting that's dripping onto the intake.. if it's down near the pump, it's not the carb, it's a loose fitting, or a shot pump, allowing the carb to drain back towards the tank (or onto the ground).

Hooper

03-01-2002, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by tsm1mt

I don't think they're related. He might have TWO leaks. :D

If it's IN the intake, it's in the carb.

If it's ON the intake, it could be the carb, or just a loose fuel fitting that's dripping onto the intake.. if it's down near the pump, it's not the carb, it's a loose fitting, or a shot pump, allowing the carb to drain back towards the tank (or onto the ground).

OK. That makes sense then. I thought you thought they were somehow related.

So, have we figured out if he has points or gold box yet? He only has one or the other. Gold box is nothing more than electronic points.

Speaking of which, I have to call Napa and order up another gold box.... unless someone has recently converted and has a working gold box they are not using. Nothing wrong with gold box, as long as you have a spare. Heck of a lot easier to replace than points, just more expensive... <g> But, if you have two on hand, one in the rig, and one in the tool box, you are in pretty good shape. My problem is, right now I have a marginal one in the rig, but my spare is shot..

AgaveHound

03-01-2002, 06:17 PM

Hoop, I just switched from gold box to points/Pertronix. The gold box worked fine when I disconnected it. E-mail me if you want it. I think I saw a reciept for it, so it's not the original. It's not doing me any good...:)

Brandonw

03-01-2002, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by Cliffhanger

Yeah I've seen the puddle of gas you referred to. So that puddle leaking into my intake is caused (most likely) by the fact that my fule pump is leaking??? hmmmmm
:usa:

try pouring some gas into the float bowls, if it fires right up than everything else should be fine just that it drains out. I gota figure out where I'm leaking. The gasket on the botom of the spacer is soaked with gas. Anybody know how much a rebuild for an Edelbrock 1405 is?:question:

muskyman

03-02-2002, 12:51 AM

He may be fighting to interelated problems.

having a less then sealed fuel line between the pump and carb can cause to problems.

one rich

one lean

and they dont cancel each other out.

the first is when the whole system is running well and up to pressure and you shut it off the hole /leak allows the system to drain out into the carb and out the lower leak until there is no more pressure.

kinda like how water stays in a straw when you pinch the top,when you let go the water runs out

this combined with a less then perfect/dirty float seat you will get leak down.

then you get the puddel and the over rich hard starting it causes

the second is after sitting long enough that the said puddle of fuel is now evaporated off and not causing a rich condition

but as it lets the fuel drain into the carb it also allows the fuel to drain all the way back into the tank as well.

making these starts just like a first start after running outa gas.

the carb has just enough gas to give you one fire? maybe then it has to crank and crank till it sucks up and represurizes the whole system.

then it starts and runs well because the leak is not enough to undermine its running quality.

well good luck hope this helps

pablo955

03-03-2002, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by Brandonw

try pouring some gas into the float bowls, if it fires right up than everything else should be fine just that it drains out. I gota figure out where I'm leaking. The gasket on the botom of the spacer is soaked with gas. Anybody know how much a rebuild for an Edelbrock 1405 is?:question:

Just be careful when puring gas into the carb. I was doing that once and caught the whole carb/air filter on fire. It was quite an experience, and it makes for a good story now, but it sure did make for alot of extra work at the time. It really sucks to have to rebuild a newly rebuilt carb because you have just filled the thing with powder from a fire extinguisher!

I know, newbie mistake!:emb3:

Good luck!
Aubrey

tsm1mt

03-03-2002, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by pablo955

Just be careful when puring gas into the carb. I was doing that once and caught the whole carb/air filter on fire. It was quite an experience, and it makes for a good story now, but it sure did make for alot of extra work at the time. It really sucks to have to rebuild a newly rebuilt carb because you have just filled the thing with powder from a fire extinguisher!

I know, newbie mistake!:emb3:

Good luck!
Aubrey

Only once? :D

I've set my Scouts on fire multiple times (slow learner?)

I recall one morning before work (in a shirt n' slacks, of course) "priming" the carb with a little gas.. didn't have a small cup handy, so I figured I'd just pour carefully from the 5gal Jerry can..

Yeah, right.

Oh well, some of it made it on the carb...

Fireball followed (hey, it started).. and there I was blowing on the flames to blow them out - Huff, puff.

Had some rags or my coveralls handy that made a good blanket to smother the flames.

Talk about interesting..

Teach me to follow Hofstetter's advice.. :D

Cliffy [JD]

03-04-2002, 09:03 AM

This is what I know. I had just changed the rotor and cap, and under the rotor, instead of seeing the usual points stuff it looked like a black 1/2-3/4" thick disk. I didn't try to look under the disk though :(

Also the Pertronix guy I talked to said that my scout "being a '78 should DEFINTELY have a prestolite dist" so if that helps:confused:

I think what's happening (after deciphering all of the posts above) is my bowles are draining due to the leak at the fuel pump.

I have never noticed any liquid in the intake until AFTER I'VE FLOODED IT. I know my butterfly shafts aren't worn (my first carb on this thing was though) and there's no longer gas leaking on my intake (there was with my second carb)

I'm convinced the problem is NOT with the carb.

I'm gonna put a new hardline into the fuel pump with some thread sealing tape, and then if that doesn't do it (and I think it will) I'm gonna put new plug wires in , and regap my plugs and if I still have problems I'm gonna persue the pertronix system, but I'd rather not spend my money on that JUST YET

Hooper

03-04-2002, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by Chas76SII
Hoop, I just switched from gold box to points/Pertronix. The gold box worked fine when I disconnected it. E-mail me if you want it. I think I saw a reciept for it, so it's not the original. It's not doing me any good...:)

How much you want for it? I'll probably take it off your hands.

Thanks

AgaveHound

03-04-2002, 10:43 AM

How about the cost of a six pack and shipping? Like I said, it ain't doing me any good. PM me with your zip code and I'll check cost for UPS. According to my reciepts it was bought new in '96 by the PO, so it should have a few years left in it. :beer:

Chuck

Shadow man

03-04-2002, 12:25 PM

Pat, You could go to the Heep safari in a couple of weeks. I'll just go down to CS and pick it up for you, and give it to you in person:D

Hooper

03-04-2002, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by Shadow man
Pat, You could go to the Heep safari in a couple of weeks. I'll just go down to CS and pick it up for you, and give it to you in person:D

Duthie is going to CalRocs and hammers this week.

But then, a gold box weighs, what, a pound, plus packaging. It can't cost too much. :) Probably not worth worrying about inconveniencing anyone worrying about meeting schedules, hooking up and such.

Thanks though.

Wish I were going. Gotta wait for the sons to get old enough to call it a daddy, sons outing......

jdjanda

03-04-2002, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by Hooper
Wish I were going. Gotta wait for the sons to get old enough to call it a daddy, sons outing......

Just wait it's great, my wife actually encourages it. Gets me and my son out of the house for the day. When the little one is old enough we'll be able to split for the weekend and the wife will get a much deserved break from the kids.

Joe

Hooper

03-04-2002, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by jdjanda

Just wait it's great, my wife actually encourages it. Gets me and my son out of the house for the day. When the little one is old enough we'll be able to split for the weekend and the wife will get a much deserved break from the kids.

Joe

That's the plan. Me and the three boys, take off for a 3 or 4 day weekend, wheeling, camping, fishing, carrying on.... <g>

Wife gets to go shopping, or do whatever it is she wants to do. But, mine are 6, 4, and 2. Not old enough yet to make it feasible......

RustoleumWhite

03-04-2002, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by Hooper

That's the plan. Me and the three boys, take off for a 3 or 4 day weekend, wheeling, camping, fishing, carrying on.... <g>

Wife gets to go shopping, or do whatever it is she wants to do. But, mine are 6, 4, and 2. Not old enough yet to make it feasible......

course, with the way Sara like to shop.... you'll be broke by the end of the weekend... :D :flipoff2:

Hooper

03-04-2002, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by RustoleumWhite

course, with the way Sara like to shop.... you'll be broke by the end of the weekend... :D :flipoff2:

<g>

I talked her out of the new Saturn Vue. Explained to her that we could afford it, but that it would increase our car payments by $200/mo and wouldn't she rather spend that money on something else, like clothes, curtains, etc, stuff I know she is going to buy anyway, that I really can't *keep* her from buying... <g>

She agreed.

<whew>

jdjanda

03-05-2002, 12:16 AM

Originally posted by Hooper

Wife gets to go shopping, or do whatever it is she wants to do.

A day working on the Scout costs me whatever I spend, and whatever the wife can spend while I'm doing said work. Usually double what I spend.

tsm1mt

03-05-2002, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by RustoleumWhite

course, with the way Sara like to shop.... you'll be broke by the end of the weekend... :D :flipoff2:

:D Broke Scout, broke bank account.. yep, broke. :D

Hooper

03-05-2002, 11:26 PM

Originally posted by tsm1mt

:D Broke Scout, broke bank account.. yep, broke. :D

Yep. Broke. But, usually well rewarded since her favorite shopping store is VS. :D

jeenjer

03-06-2002, 09:36 AM

Hey cliffy, ditch the 345 and go for the caddy:D

Chad H

03-14-2002, 06:17 AM

Sooo, back to the subject... Have you figured the problem out?

Cliffy [JD]

03-14-2002, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by jeenjer
Hey cliffy, ditch the 345 and go for the caddy:D

Yeah yeah, jeremy, you gonna fund my project, find me a BOP TH400 and buy my atlas at the same time?? :flipoff2:

Cliffy [JD]

03-14-2002, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by The Chad
Sooo, back to the subject... Have you figured the problem out?

No Every friday lately it starts snowing and it's been too cold to get anything done. This morning it dropped (and is still dropping) 4+ inches of the white stuff, and I don't mean COKE!!

This weekend though I'm gonna DRAG :( stumpy (that's what I'm calling it right now) into the warehouse to get some shiat done.

PS: It's my 23rd B-day this weekend.:beer:

tsm1mt

03-14-2002, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by Cliffhanger

No Every friday lately it starts snowing and it's been too cold to get anything done. This morning it dropped (and is still dropping) 4+ inches of the white stuff, and I don't mean COKE!!

This weekend though I'm gonna DRAG :( stumpy (that's what I'm calling it right now) into the warehouse to get some shiat done.

PS: It's my 23rd B0day this weekend.

My problem is it's been so WARM all the snow melted.. didn't get the entire front driveway concreted ($$$$).. but since it WAS all dug up n' such, it's nice soft dirt w/ no grass.. and about ankle-deep with all of the moisture. :D I'm happy when it freezes solid. :)

Anyhow.. happy birthday!

We're all gettin' old...

Chief yelling alot

03-14-2002, 10:24 AM

CHECK YOUR OIL

I had a pos burnt out 304 with a crap holley that leaked gas down the intake one day after sitting about a week.

RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR :nuke:

Cliffy [JD]

03-14-2002, 11:43 AM

Ummmm,................ The first thing I ever did to it was change the oil, but thanks buddy.;) :beer:

jeenjer

03-14-2002, 06:35 PM

happy birthaday, are we doing any thing fun this year:question: Hey maybe for your present I'll come down and get that heep running right. Just need to throw in some good ol' GM parts:flipoff2:

mtndewmaniac

03-20-2002, 11:42 PM

JD, on my 74 caddy eldorado, I had the 500 in it, and for a HEAVY car, it was quick. Then it did itself a FLAME JOB:nuke:
Poof it was up in smoke, come to find out, the plug in front of the Q-jet, (since the fuel inlet was on the side-front) it popped out while the engine was running. Just look at it and see if it's O.K.;)

GRMhick

03-23-2002, 11:53 PM

ok, on my old 77 d-150 I had a similar problem.. I rebuilt the carb, new ignition, re-wired the whole underhood section.. nothing... still started like crap.. ended up being my voltage regulator was going out and it wasent allowing enough amps to get to the ignition box.. but even after that it still took maybe 30 sec.. so I added a relay for the power in on the ignition box, and it fired right up in about 3 sec.... down side is that it stayed running for about 10 sec after you took out the key :rolleyes: But thats how life goes.. I was right at that point when the tranny went out and I parked it.. hpe to have the old girl up and going again sometime.. but it is #2 in line... and probabally wont be till next summer :emb:

mtndewmaniac

03-24-2002, 01:23 PM

hope you find the problem soon, as to how i'm sure it creates more stress on the starter to have to crank longer, and how the motor is "dry" until the oil starts pumping. still sounds like that fuel is escaping, draining etc. thus fuel having to be pumped to the engine before it starts, maybe a small electric "booster" pump to prime the fuel system.:rasta:

SnowScoutII

04-02-2002, 01:57 PM

:flipoff2: So when I firsty got my scout the fuel pump had a fine crack on the inside of the pump. This caused mine to run funny because it was sucking air and losing fuel. I replaced the pump only to fine although it ran better it still wasnt up to par. I replaced the fuel filter and the gas tank (got one out of my 79) and the sendeing unit and it fixed the prob. the have a tendincey to rust on the connectors of the sending unit. So I think I consider myself lucky. It only cost baout 15 bucks and some bloody nuckles. I have a control box out of my 79 if you want it. I know it wont go in my 72 but Im sure it still works:jeep: :grinpimp:

mtndewmaniac

04-02-2002, 03:39 PM

Hey cliffy, any luck on the scout yet, or just trying to keep warm. You are going to drop the axles under it from the blazer?
I just picked up a subaru AWD, for $45.00. needs a motor. as soon as this is running I'll be tearing down the cherokee getting it prepped for the build up. :flipoff2: :D

Cliffy [JD]

04-02-2002, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by SnowScoutII
:flipoff2: So when I firsty got my scout the fuel pump had a fine crack on the inside of the pump. This caused mine to run funny because it was sucking air and losing fuel. I replaced the pump only to fine although it ran better it still wasnt up to par. I replaced the fuel filter and the gas tank (got one out of my 79) and the sendeing unit and it fixed the prob. the have a tendincey to rust on the connectors of the sending unit. So I think I consider myself lucky. It only cost baout 15 bucks and some bloody nuckles. I have a control box out of my 79 if you want it. I know it wont go in my 72 but Im sure it still works:jeep: :grinpimp:

I had posted in another thread, that I figured my problems out. Thanks for the offer though. BTW mine is a 78