"Big Rig" Questions Post

[SanDiegoCJ]

Okay, some of this was touched on in a couple of recent posts, but how about
getting the info in one thread. I'm talking "Semi Tractors" here.
What I'd like is replies from people who have first hand knowledge. What I'm
"hoping" for is that this doesn't turn into a "Ford vs. Chevy" type of rant.

#1. How do the major brands compare to each other ? i.e. Peterbilt, Frieghtliner, volvo........... etc.

#2. How do to different engines compare ?? Cummins, MBE, Cat, ..... etc. on reliability, fuel mileage, power.

#3. How do to different transmissions compare ?? Manual, autoshift manual, autos. What brand names/types are know problem children ?

#4. General info, such as price, ride, resale, etc.

[84k5bd]

i think that this is an excellent idea. i have been doing some research but i think it would
be nice to have people with first hand experience.

[CJHeap]

Here is something to remember, All of the majors use the same driveline and engines. Mack is an exception and makes an excelent product. Very efficient and tough.

Detroit makes the most efficient diesel engine and it already meets the new emissions requirements.

We have run all of the brands and they are all good. Peterbilt is the standard while Freightliner is considered the entry level but they all are nice. Peterbilt usually has a better resale.

We only run manual transmissions, we do not want drivers who can not drive.

[4x4not]

I have no experience with rigs (other than the old International flat beds I used to drive @ the lumber yard) but when I was at the Peterbilt store a couple months ago they were poking fun at a couple Frieghtliner drivers, saying they were the "pansies rig" :D

Just thought it was kind of funny. Now back to your regularly scheduled program....

[SanDiegoCJ]

Detroit makes the most efficient diesel engine and it already meets the new emissions requirements.




Which one of the Detroit Diesel engines are you referring to ??? There are a number of them on their website. :confused:

[AGGIECJ-7]

stay away from the cat or the cummins engines...a detroit will leak like hell(and if its not leaking oil something is wrong with it) but it will last. I would also be weary of buying a new one. we have 46 new busses with 50 series detroits in them and all of them are problematic. This is not due to the engine but rather the electronics....full mechanical is the only way to go..

[dumass]

I really liked my Cat in the old rig. The new one's Detroit, mainly because the only local service at the time I bought it that seemed even remotely reliable was Detroit or Cat. Before the Cummins dealer here closed I would not have hesitated to buy one. Newer Volvos only come with Cummins or Volvo and 625hp sure would be cool. I couldnt find a big pony 18 spd autoshift with a Cat. The Cat in my Freightliner was just a little 3126B 330/880 so with a 6spd I spent a lot of time going 35mph on the hills. I'm never doing that again. Being underpowered and under braked sucks.

http://www.roadking.com/inside/story143.php This article sold me on the autoshift trans, the funny part is they had it for sale (in TruckPaper) and I bought it. Dealing with truck salesmen was the only downside to getting a truck.

TruckPaper.com is THE source. I talked to dealers literally from SoCal to ME once we decided on a 770 Volvo. Fontana is wall to wall trucks. If you go to some dealers and test drive a couple different rigs you'll get a good feel for what you like. The autoshift is like driving a car, my 770 handles as well as my ford. If I didn't have the 770 I think my second pick would have been a T2000 KW. Getting a rig dynoed and dot inspected weeds out the shitboxes pretty fast. I think dealing with private parties turned out well but some guys like the fleet maintainence. With the Cummins cpl (core parts list) and serial number or just the serial number on the other engines you can get a full report on all service since new done under warranty or dealer. Spit out the computer and you get a really good idea what you're buying.

[sceep]

Our ford was $2500.
It has 145k on the odometer.

We've got $2500 into it in repairs and a flatbed.

It rides like shit and tops out at 63mph. (the new air ride seats are nice though) you have no option other than sitting straight up, passenger or driver.

It gets 7mpg. loaded or empty.

it pulls our load.

$5k tow rig. I'm not complaining.

http://www.dana60.com/sceep/a4f/g-town/leave3.jpg

[willymutt]

OK, finally something I can contribute to.

As you see in the sig, I work for a Freightliner, Western Star, and Sterling dealer. I know this will make me a little biased, but I've heard almost everything when it comes to opinions. And you know what they say about those!

As far as brands, it depends on where you can get service in the area and what kind of reputation they have. Petes, KW's, and WS's all have great resale. The down side is that if you are buying used it is a wash. All used trucks seem to be up in price right now. The market is crazy. Many of my customers buy FTL's because they buy used and know that they get the most bang for the buck with a FTL. I still sell what ever used truck the customer wants, but for first time buyers I try and make them money and worry about looks afterwards.

Engine: MBE is the fuel economy leader right now. It is followed by Detroit, then Cummins, then Cat. I don't know much about he Volvo because they are a four letter word in this area because of the dealer. The MBE was introduced in 2003, so a used one is still good money. I have seen many Detroits and Cummins go 1 mil+ before overhauls. The Cats all seem to be 700K. I don't know why, but that is what the average is around here. I like the MBE for certain applications and not for others. The specs will dictate how well the truck performs both in power and fuel economy. You can have a truck spec'd to go 70 and drive it 90 and expect to get good fuel economy. The average right now seems to be 6 to 7 mpg. Doesn't seem like much, but look at the power you have.

Tranny: We are selling more and more autoshifts. The full automatic hasn't taken off yet because of price. There are many different models out there. The newest ones will have only a 2 pedal system like a true auto but be a automated manual. Stay away from a first series autoshift. They have more and more problems as they get older. I still prefer the 13 to anything else out there. Good all around tranny.

Resale varies from area to area. In our market which is a lot of farmers, tall sleepers are cheaper. In our Omaha area, they bring more money. Spec's will dicate the price also. Owner operator spec's bring more than fleet spec's obviously.

I think I answered all the questions. I would be glad to answer anything else for you guys.

[CJHeap]

Which one of the Detroit Diesel engines are you referring to ??? There are a number of them on their website. :confused:

They were 60 series 500 hp units in 2001 Petes. At the same time we had a 91 Pete flattop with a 400 hp Cat, 2 97 Petes with 450 Cummins and a 99 FLD with a 60 Series.

All were good and made money. My favorite was the 91 since it was turned up and would fly across the desert.

You need to tell us what you are wanting to do since it will determine what is your best option. I will tell you from experience that it is not easy to make money driving OTR.

[Urban Wheeler]

About as much as I can say is I drove a Mack CH-613 with the 427 hp motor and 9 speed. The cab was roomy with lots of storage, but I hated the 9 speed. I moved out of that to a Freightliner Century. Lots of room in the cab, however I didn't like the angle of the steering wheel or the positioning of the spokes. I left that for a KW. The T-600 has a smaller sleeper and much less storage, (I had to take home about 2/3s the stuff I had) but it was way more comfortable to drive, better angle on the steering wheel and tons of foot room. I ditched that for an FLD Freightshaker with a bigger motor and tighter shift pattern. That thing sucked the root. I liked the bigger motor, and it was goverend at 75 I think, but I had no foot room and it turned like a cruise ship. I don't know how many times I had to back up in an intersection in order to make the turn. I went back to the T-600.

I have also driven a Peterbilt for a short time and liked it, very smooth, but the clutch pedal takes some getting used to.

I wouldn't take anything less than a ten speed whether it's a straight ten or super ten (super ten is cool, it shifts 9-10 for you)

Cabovers are cheap used, but they have the least amount of storage unless you get a condo, and the ones you see in truckpaper.com are low power, high mileage units. You get good turning because they are so short, but you also get a ton of engine noise because you are right on top of the thing. If you can find one with a Big Cam Cummins, you can put some money into it and get yourself 400-500 hp.

[SanDiegoCJ]

They were 60 series 500 hp units in 2001 Petes. At the same time we had a 91 Pete flattop with a 400 hp Cat, 2 97 Petes with 450 Cummins and a 99 FLD with a 60 Series.

All were good and made money. My favorite was the 91 since it was turned up and would fly across the desert.

You need to tell us what you are wanting to do since it will determine what is your best option. I will tell you from experience that it is not easy to make money driving OTR.


I'm not "trying to make money by driving OTR". I'm looking at getting a used
semi tractor and converting it into a "Toterhome" type of vehicle to use as a
motorhome and a tow rig for a trailer with the rig in it. Trailer weight would be
15K max. I DO NOT want a "slow" vehicle. I want something that will pull any
mountain grade at 70mph. I also want it reliable. "Problem Child" type equipment
is not wanted.

[andyr354]

On the farm we have a 92 ford L9000 with a non computerized N14 and 9spd. The engine plate says 350hp is where it was set from the factory anyway. Has almost 600K miles on it now.

Pulls 700+ bushels no problem (around 80K total loaded truck and all). With the 9psd 65 is top speed. Rolls through the steep hills on soft gravel roads and you never need to shift down once you are rolling. Harly ever use my dads dodge Cummins for pulling the stock trailer or bales around anymore. This truck does it so effortlesly it is not worth working the crap out of a pickup.

We also have a ball hitch behind the 5th plate and put the 25' goose trailer on it. You can load the trailer with as much crap as will fit on it and the truck does not even know it is back there.

[dumass]

I'm looking at getting a used semi tractor and converting it into a "Toterhome" type of vehicle to use as a motorhome and a tow rig for a trailer with the rig in it.
imho if you really want a toterhome you have 3 choices;
1. settle for a factory aero sleeper and add a seperate non-airride box behind it
2. go with a non-integral sleeper and boot to any size box/sleeper you can build
3. take the airride out of the cab and hope the wheelbase makes the ride bearable

the downside of the toterhome is in order to get 12' or more of sleeper/coach space you're over 300" of wheelbase. My 770 has a setback axle and one of the shortest ca's and at 248" I drove up to the Sunset Grill restaurant in Moab. I'm 29' 6" oal 70" sleeper and a 12' bed. It handles u-turns etc. better than my F-250 xcab standard bed at 20' oal.

Trailer weight would be 15K max.
If you plan to tow a trailer unless it is also registered as an rv it can't legally exceed 10,000lbs. also the total overall combined length cannot exceed 65'.

I DO NOT want a "slow" vehicle. I want something that will pull any mountain grade at 70mph.
Anything over 470/1650 will do that. Interstate highways are limited to 6% grade maximum. On the secondary roads it gets steeper than that but 10% is steep. My truck is scary fast but in order to get an 18spd (2 od gears) you have to get big hp. To go "X" speed it's as simple as engine rpm x trans ratio x axle ratio x tire size = mph If you gear for 75mph and want to go 55 you will have to downshift to direct drive (1:1) and it will diminish your fuel economy and power 13s and 18s split the od so you get 2 overdrive gears. check out
Road Speed Calculator
http://www.roadranger.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?GXHC_GX_jst=c7014444662d6165&GXHC_JSESSIONID=12b26d8559eefa0b&pagename=Roadranger%2FeTpageDetail%2Fouter&Node=Products+and+Solutions&c=Page&cid=1049753925354&inner=y
If you search TruckPaper for 500 hp and autoshift (best feature for enjoyment and resale in the rv market) you'll miss the trucks that they didn't check the right trans box when they submitted the ad, so you're stuck reading them all.

AutoShift 10-Speed
http://www.roadranger.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=Roadranger%2FeTpageDetail%2 Fouter&Node=Products+and+Solutions&c=Page&cid=1054236439609&inner=y

AutoShift 18-Speed
http://www.roadranger.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=Roadranger%2FeTpageDetail%2 Fouter&Node=Products+and+Solutions&c=Page&cid=1054236441757&inner=y
I also want it reliable. "Problem Child" type equipment is not wanted.
If you go with a relatively new ('98 or newer) rig with around 500,000 os so it should be pretty trouble free if you do the dyno, ecm spit and service history with the vehicle and engine vins.

[Urban Wheeler]

take the airride out of the cab and hope the wheelbase makes the ride bearable


A couple things... I don't believe that the airride cab does that much for the driver. The bags are at the back of the cab, driver is at the front, where the solid mounts (hinges) are.

I have seen big ICT and Sundowners with the whole thing on bags, and I have also seen them the other way, just a daycab on bags with a walk-through to a solid mounted cabin.

Buying a class 8 tractor to tow a small amount of weight like that is a huge investment, with the truck, insurance, class A CDL, and you may even have to have authority, too. I would think that a smaller class 5 size vehicle would be a better choice for occasional towing/traveling, since you didn't say how often you would be using it.

One other thing, a lot of fleets have the top speed around 65-70, although there are some companies that are notorious for having slow trucks, that is they set their top speed to 60 or so.

[SanDiegoCJ]

A couple things... I don't believe that the airride cab does that much for the driver. The bags are at the back of the cab, driver is at the front, where the solid mounts (hinges) are.

I have seen big ICT and Sundowners with the whole thing on bags, and I have also seen them the other way, just a daycab on bags with a walk-through to a solid mounted cabin.

Buying a class 8 tractor to tow a small amount of weight like that is a huge investment, with the truck, insurance, class A CDL, and you may even have to have authority, too. I would think that a smaller class 5 size vehicle would be a better choice for occasional towing/traveling, since you didn't say how often you would be using it.

One other thing, a lot of fleets have the top speed around 65-70, although there are some companies that are notorious for having slow trucks, that is they set their top speed to 60 or so.


It's not just a towrig, it's also a "motorhome". It would have a 16'-17' "box"
on it with bed/stove/shower/fridge/sh!tter. Sort of a short version of a Class C.
It can be registered as a "recreational vehicle" in Cali, so no "Class A" license
is needed. I see it as a cheaper alternative to a large 38'-40' Class A diesel
pusher motorhome.

[Pat98TJ]

Detroit makes the most efficient diesel engine and it already meets the new emissions requirements.



Uh...the Mercedes engine in the Freightliners is more efficient.

I run a www.showhauler.com rig w/ a N14 Cummins, 10 speed auto. 40,000LB hitch.

[SanDiegoCJ]

Uh...the Mercedes engine in the Freightliners is more efficient.

I run a www.showhauler.com rig w/ a N14 Cummins, 10 speed auto. 40,000LB hitch.


That's a nice looking rig, but for my use I prefer this style cause it would allow
me to tow a gooseneck or 5th wheel trailer.

[85blue4runner]

stay away from the cat or the cummins engines...a detroit will leak like hell(and if its not leaking oil something is wrong with it) but it will last. I would also be weary of buying a new one. we have 46 new busses with 50 series detroits in them and all of them are problematic. This is not due to the engine but rather the electronics....full mechanical is the only way to go..


What first hand knowledge do you have that tells you Caterpillar, Cummins and Detroit Diesel all make shitty motors, or leak oil?? that is a pretty bold statement....:flipoff2:

[rockmup]

What first hand knowledge do you have that tells you Caterpillar, Cummins and Detroit Diesel all make shitty motors, or leak oil?? that is a pretty bold statement....:flipoff2:

Thats what I was thinkin....... We have over 2000 rigs in our fleet, not all of which are OTR rigs. I fix them and maintain them. I also used to drive them for 12yrs.

Detroits, you can fill them up with dirt and they will just about keep running but when they are done their done. Use only Detroit remans (Turbos and Blowers) for rebuilds. The D-Decks ( Electronics ) are not alot of trouble in our fleet. Lots of power

Cats, Almost the same as the Detroit. But you can only get parts from Cat and they are not cheap. Lots of power.

Cummins, Cummins +, One of my favorites. There are not as many parts in this whole motor as there are in just the head of a Detroit.

Internationals DT530, 466 etc, Smaller class of motor but worth a look.

A rebuild is a rebuild. In frame or out.

I don't think one is way better then another because Most of the reliabity depends on the operator IMOP

[70~K5]

What first hand knowledge do you have that tells you Caterpillar, Cummins and Detroit Diesel all make shitty motors, or leak oil?? that is a pretty bold statement....:flipoff2:

2 stroke Detroit’s were always known for leaking oil. I come by this knowledge from years of operating them. According to Caterpillar their engines need rods & mains after 300-350K miles and a inframe after 600K.

[dumass]

A couple things... I don't believe that the airride cab does that much for the driver. The bags are at the back of the cab, driver is at the front, where the solid mounts (hinges) are.

I have seen big ICT and Sundowners with the whole thing on bags, and I have also seen them the other way, just a daycab on bags with a walk-through to a solid mounted cabin.
That is as retarded as saying that the swingarm on a motorcycle doesn't affect the ride anymore than a hardtail because the swingarm pivot is in the front. Renegade,Trendsetter, powerhouse coach and the rest do this because if the body doesnt move the connection between cab and motorhome section is less likely to seperate.


Buying a class 8 tractor to tow a small amount of weight like that is a huge investment, with the truck, insurance, class A CDL, and you may even have to have authority, too. I would think that a smaller class 5 size vehicle would be a better choice for occasional towing/traveling, since you didn't say how often you would be using it.
You obviously don't know anything about motor coach/toterhome conversions as far as legality. Please do a thorough search on escapees.com HDT and MDT forums. Moreover I challenge you to find a motorhome for under $50,000 with the capabilities of a conversion. In fact I would say find one for less than $100,000 that can compare. For the price of a dually you can get a badass rig that will do any job you give it for 800,000-1,000,000 miles. Pluss you don't have to deal with the "yuppie asshole" effect of pulling up in something more expensive than everyones houses.

One other thing, a lot of fleets have the top speed around 65-70, although there are some companies that are notorious for having slow trucks, that is they set their top speed to 60 or so.
Any ecm setting can be reprogrammed in about 30min at any dealer within the limits on the engines' mechanical ability. With the vin# of any engine (you will also need the cpl, core parts list for Cummins) you can determine what you can get.

[dumass]

That's a nice looking rig, but for my use I prefer this style cause it would allow
me to tow a gooseneck or 5th wheel trailer.
SDCJ,
What exactly do you want to take with you? I am planning an 18'-20' box to haul 1 buggy inside and a bumper pull trailer (under 10,000gvw) with a stacker for my fishing boat. This would give me the ability to make a quick weekend run with 1 rig in the back (36' oal) or add a trailer (18' = 3' tongue = 21') (total length 57') to the back and take another rig (streetable and able to tow the buggy on the tag trailer from camp or on trails where you need to come out other than where you went in.) with a boat on the stacker you can cover almost any vacation. Eventually I would like an enclosed stacker.

[SanDiegoCJ]

SDCJ,
What exactly do you want to take with you? I am planning an 18'-20' box to haul 1 buggy inside and a bumper pull trailer (under 10,000gvw) with a stacker for my fishing boat. This would give me the ability to make a quick weekend run with 1 rig in the back (36' oal) or add a trailer (18' = 3' tongue = 21') (total length 57') to the back and take another rig (streetable and able to tow the buggy on the tag trailer from camp or on trails where you need to come out other than where you went in.) with a boat on the stacker you can cover almost any vacation. Eventually I would like an enclosed stacker.


I'm thinking a enclosed gooseneck with appx. 20'-24' floor length so I can have one of
my rigs in it plus a "mini-shop" up front with generator, air compressor, welder,
tools, etc. From the research I've done that trailer will weigh in at 12,000-13,000 lbs
loaded. In Cali you pull a gooseneck or 5th wheel from 10,000-15,000 lbs with
a Class C (passenger car) license with a simple endorsement.
Most of the Toterhome conversions I've seen are about 32', so the combined
length of the trailer and Toterhome will be easily under the 65' max.

[HeyBeerMan]

We have been buying used fleet truck with 450,000 +/- miles and converting them into tool trucks for our company. The last 6 have been single screw Freightliners with 460 hp 60 series Detroits. I'll tell you what the price is right and they move out.
That being said for personal use, I use a Mack 613 twin screw with a E-6 350hp. Its turned up and runs ok but a little too slow on the hills for me. It will cruise 85 once I get her wound up. I think you would probably be happy with any of the manufactures. What ever you get you will be working it about .01% of what it's made for. Just get a 400+ motor and don't look back.


:beer:man

[ScoutIITD]

SDCJ,
What exactly do you want to take with you? I am planning an 18'-20' box to haul 1 buggy inside and a bumper pull trailer (under 10,000gvw) with a stacker for my fishing boat. This would give me the ability to make a quick weekend run with 1 rig in the back (36' oal) or add a trailer (18' = 3' tongue = 21') (total length 57') to the back and take another rig (streetable and able to tow the buggy on the tag trailer from camp or on trails where you need to come out other than where you went in.) with a boat on the stacker you can cover almost any vacation. Eventually I would like an enclosed stacker.

Jim,

I like your 770 conversion. :cool2:

I hope you don't ever have to chain it up on a pass some time that bed looks like it would make chaining up a pain.

[dumass]

I make it a point to avoid snow like the plague :D

It's locked (power divider) and locked (air) in the back so hopefully without a dead tag axle I'm good to go.

[dumass]

I'm thinking a enclosed gooseneck with appx. 20'-24' floor length so I can have one of my rigs in it plus a "mini-shop" up front with generator, air compressor, welder, tools, etc.
If you go straight motorhome with garage you don't have to obey the 55mph with a trailer law and if you only need to move 1 rig it is way maneuverable. At Jon's (Allpro) jambo at table mesa we rolled into camp at 3am (yes, I'm the asshole....sorry) and missed a turn in to camp. I could never have made a u-turn with a trailer on a dirt 2 track so thank God I didn't have a trailer. With some of the 24v stuff you can get a pretty complete welding setup with just a small genset and dc. If you go with a daycab or cutaway an FL 112 and add a 24'-28' box you can easilly get what you're after. The toterhomes are more problematic to register as it's still "possible" to pull a commercial trailer. As if I'm going to run a load of lettuce on my boat or truck :rolleyes:

It seems that the latest "garage motorhomes" are more aimed at the mc crowd but if you build your own you should be fine. the impression I've gotten (Cowboy Cadillac, Trendsetter, Renegade, Showhauler and the smaller coachbuilders) is that the money is in the interior and garage doesn't pay. The other catch is front axle weight. 12,000 is the max you can legally scale OTR (WITHOUT PERMITS) most toterhomes can't get under 14,000 on the front axle. In order to unload the front the hitch gets stingered and voila. Not much of an improvemrnt over a bumper hitch if I can't jacknife the trailer. Anyway if you can meet your needs with a single unit and add a small trailer or boat when needed you may really enjoy it.

If you start shopping for trucks let me know and I can e-mail my equipment check list. I got it from escapees (DieselDan) and added some stuff. It was nice to have the seller list the info so I could compare more apple to apple on the different rigs. Larry Ziegler (onezman) has a book on conversions that lots of people have found helpful. I think it is more or less a condensation of all the forum posts etc. but he's one of the pioneers for this stuff.