Future of Winch Rope? [Archive]

TDW

03-14-2002, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by cbassett
Any reports on how the rope holds up to Mother Nature (rain, UV, heat), in terms of how long it should last?

Would it be a good idea for folks that have it to break down and get a winch cover to keep the elements off the rope?

Good questions. I have "heard" that it is UV sensitive. But like anything else on the vehicle your winch line, be it steel line or rope, needs to be properly maintained or else failures are inevitable. I personally have never seen a maintained wire rope break while off road.

Winch line is one part of the game that people often overlook.

Dirty Harry

03-14-2002, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by Rock Toy
I would definitely buy it......which leads me to my next question. Who is selling the stuff? From what I've seen, I can only get it from Masterpull and All-Pro. Anywhere else?

Masterpull (http://www.masterpull.com/) (Like you said)- $234
All-Pro (http://www.allprooffroad.com/bumper.html) (Like you said)- $219

Rockstomper (http://www.rockstomper.com/catalog/recovery/ropes.htm) -$200
Pull-Pal (http://www.premierpowerwelder.com/masterpull/masterpull.html) -$229
Missouri 4Wheeler Supply (http://www.4wheelersupply.com/recovery/masterpull.asp) -$210

All prices are for 3/8"x100 ft. without the tow hook. Rockstompers might not be the same thing, the website doesn't say if it is made by Masterpull, not sure where he gets his from. Rockstomper is also the only one who includes an abrasion guard with the rope.

offroadr35

03-14-2002, 07:21 PM

Rockstomper's is Amsteel Blue which is exactly the same as Masterpull but only comes in the blue color. I was just there today and he has spools of it so he can cut any length you want. Other than the safety factor, the other huge benefit of rope is you don't have to worry about winding it over itself and kinking it or anything. I've had cables that within a year are completely worth it cuz they're totally kinked up. You can completely abuse this cable and it will work perfectly until it breaks.

-Steve

BillaVista

03-14-2002, 07:50 PM

Wow,

It seems there is so little knowledge about this out there...and as usual we (as a group) would much rather rely on "I heards..." than actually doing some research....

Here's the link to one of the major manufacturers of HMWPE and UHMWPE ropes (namely Amsteel and Amsteel Blue)

http://www.theamericangroup.com/

This stuff has been in use for years in environments much harsher than any we frequent (marine). I live in a town with a large number of offshore industries...from fishing to offshore oil and exploration...these guys have used it for a long time. It was also originally developed to tether astronaughts to the shuttle during space walks....so it ought to be pretty trustworthy.

It is also approximately twice as strong as same size 7x19 galvanized wire rope...you can look up the exact specs yourself.

Oh yea - one last thing...if you want to sound like you know what you're talking about...stop just calling it rope...you see, the proper name for your steel line is "wire rope"...they're both types of rope, one wire, one UHMWPE. Cable is something different and is not found on winches or hoists.

High5

03-14-2002, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by BillaVista
Wow,

It seems there is so little knowledge about this out there...and as usual we (as a group) would much rather rely on "I heards..." than actually doing some research....

Here's the link to one of the major manufacturers of HMWPE and UHMWPE ropes (namely Amsteel and Amsteel Blue)

http://www.theamericangroup.com/

This stuff has been in use for years in environments much harsher than any we frequent (marine). I live in a town with a large number of offshore industries...from fishing to offshore oil and exploration...these guys have used it for a long time. It was also originally developed to tether astronaughts to the shuttle during space walks....so it ought to be pretty trustworthy.

It is also approximately twice as strong as same size 7x19 galvanized wire rope...you can look up the exact specs yourself.

Oh yea - one last thing...if you want to sound like you know what you're talking about...stop just calling it rope...you see, the proper name for your steel line is "wire rope"...they're both types of rope, one wire, one UHMWPE. Cable is something different and is not found on winches or hoists.

yeah but what to the uses you listed have to do with rock crawling? the stresses and environments are totally different. to say it is a proven product because it has been used successfully for other purposes just doesn't cut it in my opinion.

92xj

03-14-2002, 09:34 PM

Hey Billavista, any progress on your idea of getting the stuff for down under $150?

Oh, and UHMWPE is hard to say (maybe "um-wipe", like what you do when you, um, turn too sharp in the, um, rain?) - is it correct to call it nylon rope?

Chris Geiger

03-14-2002, 09:58 PM

I am using the master pull on my rig and this is the 3rd "cable" I have used. The first 2 steel cables kinked and I replaced them before the kinks caused failure. After seing a steel cable fail, I did not want to take a chance.

When running a cable over a rock I would rather have the steel, but for most straight pulls the Master Pull seems to work better. It's much easier to spool up as you don't have to worry about how the cable goes on the drum. I have an optional sleeve for my rope that is designed to help with pulls over rocks. You slide the sleeve to the point where the rope goes over the rock and then the rope won't be touching the rock directly.

I have around 20 hard pulls on this rope so far and it's working well. I would have to guess that when volume goes up it would cost less than steel to produce. I also think the winch manufactures will offer products like master pull in the future.

I wish I could give the Master Pull rope a test up Panamint, that trail is a great test for any winch/cable.

BillaVista

03-15-2002, 04:52 AM

yeah but what to the uses you listed have to do with rock crawling? the stresses and environments are totally different. to say it is a proven product because it has been used successfully for other purposes just doesn't cut it in my opinion.

Well, I wouldn't claim that they are identical, but physics is physics my man. This stuff is specifically designed to replace wire rope in industry, including (from the manufacturer):

APPLICATIONS
• Mooring Lines
• Tug Assist Lines
• Face and Wing Wires
• Seismic Tow Lines
• Winch Lines
• Pulling Lines
• Specialty Rigging Lines
• Wire Rope Replacement

And in very harsh environemts...any idea the hell a mooring line or winch line on an ocean going tug goes through. Any idea the forces experienced by heaving vessels. These lines rub, get salt water in them, are exposed to UV, etc.

This stuff is not some fancy namby pamby newfangled plastic thing. It's been tested and developed for use in demandeing environments...and it's approved for use in industry where their are strict safety regulations and guidelines. Consider the liability....if the company says it is for use as winch lines and wire rope replacement, you can bet it works well as such.

And for those who will bring up the inevitable "rubbing on a sharp rock" example (which always cracks me up)...for gods sake learn how to rig a pull properly and safely....you shouldn't be intentionally and knowingly abraiding any rope on the rocks. Oh, and use a Kevlar sheath if you like!

92xj. - right now my problem is that the suppliers are used to big orders....they don't want to hear from 100's of feet...they talk in spools or thousands of feet. these guys are in place to supply the offshore industry. So I'm being "barely tolerated" with my requests....kind of blown off most of the time, and bulk ordering will be a must.

I did get a quote of $102 per 100' of the Amsteel 5/16...but I really want quotes on the Amsteel Blue...still waiting on that.

Oh - and ya can't call it Nylon rope...Synthetic rope is probably OK as a general class identifier.

UHMWPE – Refers to Ultra High Molecular
Weight Polyethylene fibers (Dyneema ® and
Spectra ® ) primarily used in ropes for high
strength, low elasticity, and floating capability.

Spectra ® is a registered trademark of Allied Signal Corporation.
Dyneema ® is a registered trademark of DSM High Performance Fibers BV.

I have no idea where the moniker "plasma" rope came from?

willymutt

03-15-2002, 04:59 AM

Check with Jason at Twisted Customs. www.twistedcustoms.com
He has been getting it from Pat Halgosen in North Dakota. Pretty good price from what I remember.

Erin

randii

03-15-2002, 08:56 AM

The stuff just plain works... if you actually USE your winch, you will end up replacing the wire rope at least every other year.... and the last year in that cycle will be a constant battle with a meathooked bird's nest of a tangle. Drag that wire rope across rock, and you'll do bad things to it. Drag it around sharp corners and you'll put kinks in it.

I'm on my second year on the Plasma rope, and it is still hanging in there... I think I can get at least two mor 'wheeling seasons out of it. I broke it in at Sierra Trek, with about 10 pulls up a dirty, dusty winch hill.... across a broken and bent fairlead. :eek: Whoops. The rope shows a bit of fuzz on its outside, but no broken braided fibers.... I wrote this review article soon after that: http://www.outdoorwire.com/4x4/reviews/masterpull/

Who runs this rope? I have it. Geiger has it. Lance has it.... hell, i'm getting tired of typing -- quite a few folks have it. Do you see any of them switching back to wire rope?

I sure do see plenty of folks switching from wire rope to Plasma rope, though.

Randii

03-15-2002, 09:26 AM

thanks for trying to enlighten Billa

Scott@Rockstomper

03-15-2002, 09:36 AM

If you buy it in spool quantity, it gets cheaper... buying pre-made "winch ropes" gets you the loop, abrasion guard, thimble, etc., already installed. A truly smokin' deal may eliminate some of the necessary features that make it more useful than a chunk of simple rope.

Ours is Amsteel Blue, which is the same stuff that Masterpull uses, just doesn't have the Masterpull name ('cause we went around them to the source, to get a better deal on it), plus we include the abrasion guard, and we pull the loop weave back about three times as far as Masterpull does (for less chance of the loop undoing itself, since this stuff isn't knotted or crimped).

As for the fuzz on the outside... that's actually deliberate/normal, according to Samson (the manufacturer). From the Samson "Rope Inspection and Retirement" pamphlet that ships with the stuff (when it's bought in spools):

"When the rope is first put into service the outer filaments of the rope will quickly fuzz up. This is the result of those filaments breaking and this roughened surface actually forms a protective cushion and shield for the fibers underneath."

FWIW, I've run mine through some pretty hellish pulls (full stall, HS9500i, through a snatch block, over a couple rocks, through another block, to the side of my cage....) and no problems, no fraying, just fuzz.

BillaVista

03-15-2002, 09:42 AM

Another cool thing...

if it does break, you can splice it back together (not tie a knot - with a knot you drop to 50% original strength - but then again with the 3/8" Amsteel blue rated at 20, 000 lb, you could tie a knot and still be good for 10 000lb) anyway, what was I saying, oh yes, with a proper splice you can retain 80% + strength, and if you go to the link I posted they even have a dandy little pdf you can download that specifically shows you how to splice the UHMWPE ropes. How cool is that.

Break that steel cable, and IF no-one gets hurt in the process, now what are you gonna do?

BillaVista

03-15-2002, 09:46 AM

Scott,

Your stuff....are you using / selling the coated or uncoated?

When the guy showed me the difference, it was fairly dramatic, coated was quite a bit stiffer, but the coating sure sounded like a great idea to keep the crud out.

camo

03-15-2002, 10:05 AM

i run the plasma and will never go back to steel. i have abused my rope badly and it just keeps taking the punishment.

my thoughs on why it breaks during competiton is they are under strick time constraints and i would bet most failure are from improper use due to not taking the time to set a proper pull.

DRM

03-15-2002, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by randii
The stuff just plain works... if you actually USE your winch, you will end up replacing the wire rope at least every other year.... and the last year in that cycle will be a constant battle with a meathooked bird's nest of a tangle.

Randii, although I understand what you are saying, I would harldy say that the lack of attention the winch operator puts on re-spooling their winch cable cannot ba attributed to the cable itself.

I have had the same winch and stel cable for going on 5 years now (although it has not been used in well over a year now) - not a single kink, flat spot, or broken strand in the entire cable.

I have always made it a point to re-spool the winch cable correctly after each use, and just a few minutes of attention pay off IMHO.

Not that the cable should be expected to live forever - but neglecting proper maintenance of steel cable cannot be blamed on the cable itself.

As far as the Masterpull line - what is the concensus about use in HEAVY mud environments? Seems like grit would eat the stuff up fronthe inside out.... but that is just an assumption on my part of course.

welndmn

03-15-2002, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by SniperFire
Been to recent offroad events and seen a couple failures of it due to melting caused from heat buildup on the spool of a braking winch. We've taken ours and have been experimenting with putting a high temp hose around the first couple feet....haven't had a prob yet.
.

What High temp hose?

randii

03-15-2002, 10:42 AM

my thoughs on why it breaks during competiton is they are under strick time constraints and i would bet most failure are from improper use due to not taking the time to set a proper pull.
This certainly matches what I have seen at the comps.

FWIW, I have only seen three winch ropes (steel or UHMWPE) part in competition, and three in real life.
Competition:
1.) Wire Rope: Upside down Sniper tries to right itself, ticking clock forces an obviously bad pull at right angle through fairlead... wire rope gets pinched off in the junction between the rollers (dunno if any type of rope would have held up there)
2.) Plasma Rope: Jeep totally impaled on gatekeeper to Upper Helldorado makes a pretty unlikely pull (straight ahead , even though his rear axle is hooked on the rock). This guy stalls his winch, then rigs a snatch block, then snaps Plasma Rope. :rolleyes:
3.) Wire Rope: Guy double-lines and snatches a massive tree to clear trail in early spring... tree moves, but rolls hard on rope, kinking it badly. Winching proceeds, and wire rope breaks, luckily near the snatch block. Winch rope separates and flies into trees on each side of the trail. :eek:

Real Life:
1.)Wire Rope -- Bob winches a massive boulder down at cleanup, using a ratty old wire rope, that failed with very little weight on it.
2.)Wire Rope -- Bob was winching himself vertically in the sluice to free his front driveline. The wire rope parted prior to the winch stalling... the cable was nearly new! :eek:
3.)Wire Rope -- watched a guy at Trek set the cable on his brand-spanking new Warn for the first time. He was slow on the buttons and the winch was working at ludicrous-speed(tm), and he sucked the cable and the crimp connection right through the fairlead. The resulting pinch on the steel crimper rendered it obviously unsafe. That fella is still driving around with that cable to this day. :rolleyes: Luckily, he's mostly a poseur.

Conclusions:
1.) Don't hang out with Bob when he breaks out the winch! :p
2.) Many winch ropes continue to be used long after they should be retired.

So how bout the rest of you -- let's see what real stories actually exist. Make it a first hand report, we don't want to hear about your buddy's exgirlfriend's dog, who once pissed on the tire of a guy who was parked next to a jeep that broke a winch rope while 'Big Al' was using it as a rope swing into the swimmin' hole. :rolleyes:

Who here has actually *seen* a winch rope break with their own :goofball: ? What were the specifics of the situation? Condition and type of winch rope?

Randii

randii

03-15-2002, 10:47 AM

...I would harldy say that the lack of attention the winch operator puts on re-spooling their winch cable cannot ba attributed to the cable itself.
Agreed. As usual, it comes down to operator error. I like the Plasma rope even more because of this -- it is way more forgiving, IMHO, to the abuse of reeling it in with little attention...

I have always made it a point to re-spool the winch cable correctly after each use, and just a few minutes of attention pay off IMHO.
Agreed -- and I usually do the same thing. Based on the winches I see on the front of many rigs, this is the exception rather than the rule.

Randii

Scott@Rockstomper

03-15-2002, 10:51 AM

We're using the coated stuff. There's some pics on the site of the gray stuff that's on my truck (came from a different source--haven't been able to find that color since, without paying $2.50 a foot for it), but the stuff we're selling, is all blue.

I've seen guys tie knots in steel cable... doesn't make it right, does make it scary, but it (sometimes) works.

morpheus

03-15-2002, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by Scott@Rockstomper
I've seen guys tie knots in steel cable... doesn't make it right, does make it scary, but it (sometimes) works.

yikes! :eek: :eek: :eek:

- jack

badassjeepguy

03-15-2002, 11:43 AM

aracom mini line..... kevlar core with dacron outer, 8000 lbs rating..... he is giving me a price, this is from a local sling shop.... it is 5/16th.......... they are usually kickass with prices.... he is goin to call back.... he dont have the actual amsteel.... i wonder what the difference is?

badassjeepguy

03-15-2002, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by badassjeepguy
aracom mini line..... kevlar core with dacron outer, 8000 lbs rating..... he is giving me a price, this is from a local sling shop.... it is 5/16th.......... they are usually kickass with prices.... he is goin to call back.... he dont have the actual amsteel.... i wonder what the difference is?

1.51 per foot, 1200 foot roll! :eek: was only wanting 250 or so.... guess that wont work......... worth a shot

DRM

03-15-2002, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by randii
Based on the winches I see on the front of many rigs, this is the exception rather than the rule.

Randii

No question about it - most people do not take the time to re-spool it like they should, and consequently they pay for it with reduced cable life, and potential safety issues :(

welndmn

03-15-2002, 11:53 AM

9000lbs on my friends fullsize bronco, busted a rear D-shaft, winched up walker, the wire rops was is bad shape as it was, and let go, scary stuff

While reading Randii's i was thinking seeing all the fairleads braking, that aluminm hawse from all pro sure does look nice now
i think most of the cable/rope/whatever failurese seem to be fairlead realated

camo

03-15-2002, 11:54 AM

i have seen two wire ropes fail and both were on a tow truck doing recovery work. one whiplashed back and smashed out the rear wind of the truck.

badassjeepguy

03-15-2002, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by DRM

No question about it - most people do not take the time to re-spool it like they should, and consequently they pay for it with reduced cable life, and potential safety issues :(

ive replaced my cable every year.......... no matter what, just for the safety issue.............

and i still managed to break one when pulled hard to the side, breaking my fairlead..... it was either that or flop... :D

Chris Geiger

03-15-2002, 12:28 PM

While reading Randii's i was thinking seeing all the fairleads braking, that aluminm hawse from all pro sure does look nice now
i think most of the cable/rope/whatever failurese seem to be fairlead realated [/B]

http://www.allprooffroad.com/pics/8754.jpg

Po' riggity

12-11-2007, 08:28 AM

:laughing:

wait... is it wrong that I am laughing at that video?

SpineTx

12-11-2007, 09:42 AM

:laughing:

wait... is it wrong that I am laughing at that video?

May not be wrong but it this thread is 5 years old!

Kreep

12-11-2007, 10:31 AM

May not be wrong but it this thread is 5 years old!

Must be Tuesday... :flipoff2::flipoff2:

camo

12-11-2007, 11:45 AM

so did ARCA outlaw the new fangeled rope ? :flipoff2:

Po' riggity

12-11-2007, 11:47 AM

Sad, I stopped looking at the dates completely.. Maybe I shouldn't put it past the N00bs to bringn old threads back from the dead?? :confused:

b2dude

12-11-2007, 12:20 PM

video?

az-k5

12-11-2007, 02:30 PM

so did ARCA outlaw the new fangeled rope ? :flipoff2:

I wonder if that bird is still alive? Or anywhere near rock crawling.

RedBullJeep

12-11-2007, 02:42 PM

so did ARCA outlaw the new fangeled rope ? :flipoff2:

It was easier to outlaw themselves... :dustin:

rpm4x4

12-11-2007, 03:04 PM

video?
You are not the only one. :confused:

vanguard_anon

12-11-2007, 03:11 PM

You are not the only one. :confused:

I posted a youtube video that had a scene from ghost ship. In the scene a wire rope (cable?) sliced about 50 people in half in a split second. I gave a gore warning and it kind of fit the wire rope vs. synth rope debate but I guess the moderators didn't agree.

rpm4x4

12-11-2007, 03:17 PM

I posted a youtube video that had a scene from ghost ship. In the scene a wire rope (cable?) sliced about 50 people in half in a split second. I gave a gore warning and it kind of fit the wire rope vs. synth rope debate but I guess the moderators didn't agree.

:idea: makes a little more sense.

Sounds like trailer park material.:evil:

camo

12-11-2007, 03:31 PM

I posted a youtube video that had a scene from ghost ship. In the scene a wire rope (cable?) sliced about 50 people in half in a split second. I gave a gore warning and it kind of fit the wire rope vs. synth rope debate but I guess the moderators didn't agree.

when and where did you post said video ? or better yet, please post it in this thread.

vanguard_anon

12-11-2007, 03:39 PM

when and where did you post said video ? or better yet, please post it in this thread.

I posted it this morning in this thread and somebody deleted my post. I'd post a direct link again but the mods sent a pretty clear message when they deleted it the first time.

If you go to youtube and search for JAue3uMp0Ro it will take you right there.

braxton357

12-11-2007, 05:07 PM

My old reply about all of the defunct sanctioning bodies (and neuroc, erocc, real uroc) and winches in comps being a joke the last 4 years got deleted as well. Po'rig's original clueless reply is gone too. Weird.

rpm4x4

12-11-2007, 05:14 PM

Looks like we have a thread cleaner on our hands.:mr-t:

jrod66

12-11-2007, 05:17 PM

Yeah there are a bunch of posts missing, including the dumbass that brought this thread back to life.

redtruck

12-11-2007, 05:27 PM

here's the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAue3uMp0Ro

Tim84K10

12-11-2007, 05:36 PM

I would not use a cable with all the stuip fawks around, the crowd does not "get it"

One of the greatest things about rockcrawling is that the spectators really get to be up close and personal with the courses. Given the choice of having to keep the crowd FAR away from the cones vs. mandating the use of synthetic line, I'll take the latter, thanks.

wngrog

12-11-2007, 05:56 PM

here's the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAue3uMp0Ro

:laughing:

StinkBug

12-11-2007, 10:21 PM

here's the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAue3uMp0Ro

SWEET!

maxyedor

12-11-2007, 11:34 PM

Any reports on how the rope holds up to Mother Nature (rain, UV, heat), in terms of how long it should last?

I have a buddy who's been running it for years now, not exactly sure how many, but the first time I'd ever heard of synth line was when he showed up to a club meet with it, maybe 5 years ago. The first layer of his rope is faded to white, and the rest is the original dark green, he's really cautios about not letting it touch rocks and trees while winching, and he's never broken it, and he uses it a ton.

Heat seems to be the biggest issue, but there is a cure. My Superwinch ep9 has an external brake, so even under heavy winching and using the brake a lot, the drum is still cool to the touch, no worries about my line failing due to heat, user error maybe:shaking: