Brainstorm Trail Markers

[randii]

We talked about this a little in this other thread:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=370763
...where it was noted that it can be pretty hard to identify where the trail actually is.

Ideas discussed so far are:
* reflective paint stencilled on the rock, like in Moab
* reflective highway markers, epoxied down
* rock cairns

Any others?

Randii

[randii]

I like the rock cairn idea as an immediate short-term solution... let's make that happen at ain individual level, while we stew on a longer-term solution as a group.

I challenge each one of you to pull some rocks as you are coming across the Spider spillway and build a small rock cairn going across the bowl...
http://www.pinncamp.com/cairn.gifhttp://www.trails-edge.com/climb/summer/cairn-1.jpghttp://www.pinncamp.com/cairn.gif

It doesn't have to be much, but we can all do a little.

Randii

[Big Rich]

Except at night, it's pretty hard to miss the oil droplets...

Maybe make everyone add some reflective glitter to ther crank cases :(

Rich

[Jes]

I like the rock cairn idea as an immediate short-term solution... let's make that happen at ain individual level, while we stew on a longer-term solution as a group.

I challenge each one of you to pull some rocks as you are coming across the Spider spillway and build a small rock cairn going across the bowl...
http://www.pinncamp.com/cairn.gifhttp://www.trails-edge.com/climb/summer/cairn-1.jpghttp://www.pinncamp.com/cairn.gif

It doesn't have to be much, but we can all do a little.

Randii

I doubt the cairn thing will last, drunk retards will likely just run them over.
A friend and I put up a row of them to keep [add explicitive here] out of the small marshy area past $1000 hill...
http://www.fototime.com/{15E69767-D18D-40C7-9FB5-4DEE6BAF878C}/picture.JPG
http://www.fototime.com/{90F0A6EB-DC5D-421C-9894-880A10B90F35}/picture.JPG
...not even 5 weeks later they were all knocked over and there were bogger prints throughout the marsh.
I don't know what the hell is wrong with some people. :shaking:

[randii]

Keep up the good fight, Jes! :cool2:

[peesalot]

you rock Jes , thats the real deal , that is what it takes , repeated efforts of this type . Sweet , post those before and after pics as many places as possible.

[cruzila]

I doubt the cairn thing will last, drunk retards will likely just run them over.
A friend and I put up a row of them to keep [add explicitive here] out of the small marshy area past $1000 hill...

...not even 5 weeks later they were all knocked over and there were bogger prints throughout the marsh.
I don't know what the hell is wrong with some people. :shaking:

So that was you!! Nice job! We can rebuild that for sure. Actually anyone can.

scott

[jopes]

Nice work Jes!

[rockwrangler]

here's to you Jes.:blender: :blender: :blender: :usa: Great work

[welndmn]

I have often thought about this, the problem with small rock stacks (blair witch!) is they are probally seen as great rocks to go "stack" to help someone over a trail, or even yet, "Fun to kick over" (unless you build a wall like jes, speaking of, is it still there?)
Signs I would feel would get stolen/painted/shot and small highway reflectors people would say it ruins the feel of the trail.
I am really at loss for ideas.

[Jeepndel]

I still think we need more permanent markers in the rocks (like Moab).
Paint, yea, maybe, but relfective markers stuck in the rock might last longer.
Del

[FLASHLIGHTMAN]

I just went next door to the state DOT testing lab where thay test all road way markers, they have every kind of road marker imaginable. After getting the full tour, I ended up walking out with a case 50. these are the small 2"x4" yellow plastic ones that caltrans uses in the mountains, 2 way reflectors, the ones that are recessed so the snowplows dont scrape em off. Just clean off the rock with compressed air and use any good quality epoxy.

[Jeepndel]

I just went next door to the state DOT testing lab where thay test all road way markers, they have every kind of road marker imaginable. After getting the full tour, I ended up walking out with a case 50. these are the small 2"x4" yellow plastic ones that caltrans uses in the mountains, 2 way reflectors, the ones that are recessed so the snowplows dont scrape em off. Just clean off the rock with compressed air and use any good quality epoxy.

GREAT Brian, let's give them a try. We;ll have to figure out the logistics of getting them up to the kiosk or to one of our closer up there a lot guys, or drop them off at Ice House Resort for our loaner lock box there.
Good work....I want to try them.
Del

[Broncrick]

Cool Brian!

[Disco]

I'm heading up this weekend and can put them in the Kiosk.

Brian, I'm in El Dorado Hills for work right now so if you want to meet somewhere today I can pick them up from you. ;)

My cell(530)409-4833

[FLASHLIGHTMAN]

My only concern would be actual marker placement, I’m thinking it would be in everyone’s interest (private property owners and gov agencies) to have a County employee survey in the centerline of the legally accepted trail especially over the slabs and bowl. Being a roadway guy I know it’s usually much safer and cheaper to have a licensed surveyor on hand from the get go.

just my $0.02

a good quality GPS unit and map would probably be acceptable also

[FLASHLIGHTMAN]

Tim, thanks, i can't get out of the office here near CSUS, and my calendar is beyond full, my best bet would probably be to drop em off at Randii's.

Randii, i know you like the stencil idea, run with it, maybe draft up a cool design. I can probably get a can of dot approved reflective roadway paint too.

brian
227-1222

[randii]

I'll synch with Brian this week and close the loop...

We have access to recent high-definition GPS survey data to help with placement, when we're ready. I'll work on that stencil, too...

Randii

[SlowMo]

Make sure your GPS is set to the same datum as the FS used when they survied it. Using the wrong datum would put you near the spot, but not AT the spot.

[jopes]

I just went next door to the state DOT testing lab where thay test all road way markers, they have every kind of road marker imaginable. After getting the full tour, I ended up walking out with a case 50. these are the small 2"x4" yellow plastic ones that caltrans uses in the mountains, 2 way reflectors, the ones that are recessed so the snowplows dont scrape em off. Just clean off the rock with compressed air and use any good quality epoxy.





how much did a case of 50 go for?

[cruzila]

Tim, thanks, i can't get out of the office here near CSUS, and my calendar is beyond full, my best bet would probably be to drop em off at Randii's.

Randii, i know you like the stencil idea, run with it, maybe draft up a cool design. I can probably get a can of dot approved reflective roadway paint too.

brian
227-1222

Way cool Brian!! If the design can be presented to the ROC on July 14 I bet we could run with it........

[Stonefly]

What happened to using the previously 'approved' (USFS, county, & FOTR) Rubicon Trail signs?
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=160640&highlight=Rubicon+Trail+Sign

[randii]

The existing diamond-shaped signs would be kept, but augmented with the stencil and /or epoxy solution. The existing signs work well when there are trees, but less well in the slabs. Also, we underestimated people's willingness to steal them. :(

Randii

[The Jerk]

It doesnt need to be the whole trail. I think the reflective markers on the open slab areas of the trail will help a great deal at ngiht and during the day. Heck i still notice teh red arrows on teh high side of slabs when i go.

[sqdave]

Reflectors are fun, but I still think paint is the way to go. Paint can't be stolen. I bet those reflectors would look a lot better on somebodys tube buggy than on the trail.

[sqdave]

My only concern would be actual marker placement, I’m thinking it would be in everyone’s interest (private property owners and gov agencies) to have a County employee survey in the centerline of the legally accepted trail especially over the slabs and bowl. Being a roadway guy I know it’s usually much safer and cheaper to have a licensed surveyor on hand from the get go.

just my $0.02

a good quality GPS unit and map would probably be acceptable also


:rainbow: :rainbow: :rainbow:

If you make too big a deal about this, it will never get done. Just use the generally accepted trail. If nobody has a problem with where we are driving now, then they will not have a problem if that line is marked. In this day and age when there is no $$$ for anything, who wants to hire a surveyor.

[Stonefly]

The existing diamond-shaped signs would be kept, but augmented with the stencil and /or epoxy solution. The existing signs work well when there are trees, but less well in the slabs. Also, we underestimated people's willingness to steal them. :(

Randii


A painted stencil of the diamond shaped sign, strategicly placed in the open areas would be cool!

[Chopperman]

A painted stencil of the diamond shaped sign, strategicly placed in the open areas would be cool!

We recently went up Friday night and got briefly side tracked in the bowl. Granted I haven't been going up there since flat fenders where invented, but I have been wheeling the Con for the last 6-7 years and I still get lost in the bowl at night .. A reflective stencil would be awesome.

I'm down, when can I help with this project ?

[DLD]

I think if you start spray painting this will be used against us, another way that we are changing nature, not leaving it as clean or cleaner then before we were there.

My thought is if people drove over the wall Jes built, there is not enough paint too keep them on the trail. I also don't understand how anyone could not see the oil drips that mark out the trail, even at night I found it simple to see.

Just my ¢.02, and really nice job Jes, if only everyone that used the trail was like you. :p

[peesalot]

DLD , garunteed you could not follow the entire trail that way nor could you if it was raining even over the most oil spotted area . If you think you are always on the trail then you either been drivin it so long it is ingrained in memory or you are wrong.....

[DLD]

DLD , garunteed you could not follow the entire trail that way nor could you if it was raining even over the most oil spotted area . If you think you are always on the trail then you either been drivin it so long it is ingrained in memory or you are wrong.....
Maybe I am wrong, I was just up there at 2am on the 23rd (well I guess it was the 24th :rolleyes: ) me and 4 other rigs had no probs with just the moon light to see the trail to all the way to Ellis Creek. There is one or 2 spots in the bowl that we had to stop and take a look, but I think it is simple to tell where to go. With Rain it is not too bad at all, but rain at night could be really hard, but who wants to wheel in that?

I think most of the people that don't stay on the trail do so by choice. From Jes's photo you can clearly see that area is blocked off, but still people drove over it. Even in almost black you would still have to run that over. I think the oil drips are bad enough, but do you really want to see this place coverd in paint?

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3d703b3127cce9bdeabcfd91100000016108IasWTVu5aE

Again this is just my ¢.02 I think people like Del Albright, Cruzila, Jes & the rest of FOTR know better then I do. Maybe they can make it not look like some cool design spray painted on a rock? I still think the ones that don't know better will still go where they want to go, with or with out trail markers.

[randii]

I think the oil drips are bad enough, but do you really want to see this place coverd in paint?
Heck no... I'm not talking COVERED in paint, nor am I even talking a solid stripe. I'm thinking more of a simple reflective 5"x5" stencil applied every few hundred feet. It works incredibly well in Moab -- here's an example of the flame stencil used on Hell's Revenge:
http://128.83.80.200/taco/m18.jpg

I still think the ones that don't know better will still go where they want to go, with or with out trail markers.
Yep -- but there's still good gain to be had for helping direct those that WANT to stay on the trail. Outlaws will be outlaws -- and the Trail Patrol or Law Enforcement will take care of that.

FWIW, here's an old thread where we talked about many of the same things:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6238

Randii

[bagman]

How come I never have a problem staying on the trail. Nighttime daytime, moon light, no moon light. I never been lost in the bowl or the woods. This signing the trail seems silly to me. It reall seems like you are just doing something so you say that you did something. Kinda takes away from the whole middle of nowhere thing. But hey what do I know.

[MellowYellow]

Heck i still notice teh red arrows on teh high side of slabs when i go.

My Friend and I spent the better part of a day trying to grind those off during a Pirate clean up. I wasn't all that put off by them, but the FS wanted them gone.

I don't think it is easy to follow the oil marks. There are a lot of natural dark areas in the granet and there are many possible routes. It would be nice to know the "offical path" through the bowl.

How about stacks of rocks with a piece of steal drilled in it? It would look natural. I guess drilling rocks would be a PITA.

[DLD]

here's an example of the flame stencil used on Hell's Revenge:
http://128.83.80.200/taco/m18.jpg


I don't like the ones in Moab much ether.

Yep -- but there's still good gain to be had for helping direct those that WANT to stay on the trail. Outlaws will be outlaws -- and the Trail Patrol or Law Enforcement will take care of that.

FWIW, here's an old thread where we talked about many of the same things:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6238

Randii
Thanks for the link, that helps. Also in argument agenst my own thoughts, I have to say that some people don't have the best sence of direction. After I posted last, I was reminded of a person that I have been on the Rubicon with 3 or 4 times now. He always somehow gets lost, and he has also been across the trail more times then I.

So maybe my ¢.02 is only worth a penny now.

[peesalot]

DLD , very good pic for this thread , where in that pic is the trail . I have been led thru there 3 different ways and found our own way once . Also , there are 2 ways out the top and more than 2 ways to get to the bottom of bowl from loon so I am just thrilled you posted that pic . It is a perfect example of where the rock cairn idea is perfect.

[DLD]

DLD , very good pic for this thread , where in that pic is the trail . I have been led thru there 3 different ways and found our own way once . Also , there are 2 ways out the top and more than 2 ways to get to the bottom of bowl from loon so I am just thrilled you posted that pic . It is a perfect example of where the rock cairn idea is perfect.

Yeah it is hard to tell on that one with the depth of feld, here is a better one, I can see the trail on the far side of the bowl just fine.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5d832b3127cce9215dc033bb600000016108IasWTVu5aE

[jwag]

I doubt the cairn thing will last, drunk retards will likely just run them over.
A friend and I put up a row of them to keep [add explicitive here] out of the small marshy area past $1000 hill...
http://www.fototime.com/{90F0A6EB-DC5D-421C-9894-880A10B90F35}/picture.JPG
...not even 5 weeks later they were all knocked over and there were bogger prints throughout the marsh.
I don't know what the hell is wrong with some people. :shaking:

Nice job Jes, but you forgot to pick up your root beer bottle :flipoff2: :D

[Jes]

Nice job Jes, but you forgot to pick up your root beer bottle :flipoff2: :D

:laughing:

Actually I did. I emptied the contents into my belly then put the bottle in my recycling bag. :flipoff2:



Thanks for the kind words guys but I'm no different than any other concened trail user/FOTR volunteer.
I do what I can when I can, as a lot of people do. :beer:

[SeanP]

Guys, my company Advanced Metal Works would love to cut some signs for the trail out of some 3/16s or 1/8 steel plate with the CNC plasma table. I've made the offer on the FOTR mail list in the past, offer still stands.

SeanP

[k5chevyblazer]

Hey Jes, are the rocks still up there protecting that marsh area? I have only been to the slabs this year. I'll check it out when I go up there next weekend.

[Jes]

Hey Jes, are the rocks still up there protecting that marsh area? I have only been to the slabs this year. I'll check it out when I go up there next weekend.

Reread my first post.
I don't even want to think about it.

[randii]

UPDATE: FOTR finished the marking test project for 2005 yesterday afternoon. The El Dorado County Department of Transportation provided us with the materials to do this - thanks!

Entering from Loon Lake, there are now 24 markers between the kiosk and Gatekeeper. Though this may seem like a lot, with all the changes in direction, elevation, and sight lines this seemed like the bare minimum:
* 18 yellow reflectorized raised pavement markers (RPMs)
* 6 green-painted FOTR stencils, with reflective glass beads for visibility
During daylight, if you're standing on the trail, you can look forward or back and see a marker, if you look hard. There is minimal impact to the viewscape -- I doubt anyone off the trail would even notice them if they weren't specifically pointed out. By night, with a light, though, they jump out nicely if you're inline with the trail (and thus inline with one of the reflector surfaces on the square sides of the RPM).

We'll see how these survive a winter of weather, and what kind of feedback we get from different users and managers... in the meantime, I still like the rock cairn idea for immediate short-term solution of places where folks get lost... let's continue to make that happen at an individual level! :cool2:

Randii

[peesalot]

cool as heck. so if you see someone off that course by more than 50 ft. or so they are off trail ? even if it is plain flat granite ? best thing to happen to that area yet. Now anyone can easily determine if they are going astray and have no excuses for not following the course. cool , cool , cool.....

[Blue Devil Toyota]

cool as heck. so if you see someone off that course by more than 50 ft. or so they are off trail ? even if it is plain flat granite ? best thing to happen to that area yet. Now anyone can easily determine if they are going astray and have no excuses for not following the course. cool , cool , cool.....

I believe it is 50ft total. 25 ft per side. Correct me if i'm wrong.

[cruzila]

Yup 25' either side. Randii, good job on the one man FOTR team!!!! You are dedicated! Can't wait to see how they hold up.

[BEAR]

I went in Fri night and was shocked to see em.
Very clear at night, way cool!

If you look hard enough, there are 2 reflectors in the pic.

http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/6848/dsc048577vk.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[randii]

I went in Fri night and was shocked to see em.
Very clear at night, way cool!
If you look hard enough, there are 2 reflectors in the pic.
Great pic, thanks, Ryan! I had to scoot out of there at dusk, so I didn't get a chance to see them really light up. Did you see the FOTR shovels with reflective glass beads, just past the spillway? I knew the RPMs would show up better, but I was hoping the green paint would show up OK, as well.

Randii

[SacTrack]

Hey guys, sorry I'v been off the board for so long. It just occurred to me that I've still got a box of Rubicon Trail signs and aluminum nails that Scot gave Phil and I two summers (2.5yrs ago) when we were heading up the sign crew and marking the trail that way. We re-hung more signs last summer(1.5yrs ago) but didn't get up there this past summer. Scot, do you want those back, or I can hang onto 'em a while longer...

[randii]

Just adding some reference photos...
* test painted-logo approach, with glass beads embedded in the paint
* older diamond-shaped signs posted high on the trees
After reviewing this with the agencies, it looks like the markers of choice will be reflectors (see Bear's photo) for granite areas, and the diamond signs for tree areas. FOTR and the County will be implementing this going forward, as the individual property/agency owners approve.

Randii

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=248416&d=1149536106
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=248417&d=1149536106
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=248418&d=1149536106

[Rubicrawler]

The painted shovels are hard to see even in the daylight. The yellow reflectors are great! We could see them well during our night runs this weekend ;)

BTW- we didn't see any in the bowl. Did we just miss them:confused:

[randii]

BTW- we didn't see <yellow reflectors> in the bowl. Did we just miss them:confused:
Nope -- they have not been placed yet. The plan was to get some test markers in place in 2005, then evaluate them in 2006 after they weathered through the winter. Our test are was between the Loon Spillway and Gatekeeper.

We have El Dorado County's approval to put the reflectors down in the property for which Eldorado National Forest has provided a formal easement... right up to the private property. We have not yet obtained approval from the owners to mark the Loon Lake granite bowl (for either the 'high line' or the 'low route'), but will ask them to evaluate the test marking.

This will take some time, but seems like it will be a good navigational aid.

Randii

[randii]

We had a great weekend and got a couple of cases of these reflectors installed -- thanks to the County for providing the bulk of them, and FOTR's own Flashlightman for pitching in a case, as well. Rich Platt and Dave (sorry man, can't remember your last name) spent some time assisting us, as well. :cool2: I had a great crew on Saturday helping epoxy these down (whatta god-awful stinkin' mess!).
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=251641&stc=1&d=1151371176
We also re-aligned rocks to help mark the trail.
http://www.norcalttora.com/albums/album229/aau.sized.jpg
I'll buy a pitcher or a six-pack for the first person that gets me a night-picture of a handful of reflectors lighting up across the bowl... Bear got 2 reflectors in his earlier pic, but I'm hoping for more.

We got the trail pretty well marked between the Loon Lake kiosk and Ellis Creek (special thanks to the private property owners for letting us mark across their land, as well!) ... in tandem with the agencies posting more of the diamond signs, it is pretty obvious where the trail is.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=248418&d=1149536106
Use these various markers as your guide, because Law Enforcement definitely will be! FWIW, we tried the stencils, and they just don't cut it for visibility.

I'd rather that we didn't have to exhaustively mark the trail -- I miss the way it was in the mid-90's where I could feel like I was the only guy on the trail on a non-holiday weekend. Times have changed, tho, and we need to change with them , lest we lose access to this awesome trail.

I challenge each one of you to pull some rocks as you are coming across the Spider spillway and build a small rock cairn or two, where you see a gap in the markers. Jess did this set:
http://www.fototime.com/{90F0A6EB-DC5D-421C-9894-880A10B90F35}/picture.JPG
If you want the Rubicon to stay simpler, with less signs, then pitch in with rock cairns at an individual level, and talk to folks you see who are off the trail. No need to pick a fight -- just help 'em out and let 'em know where the trail is, and that law enforcement is really out to enforce these days. If they cop an attitude, just shrug, tell 'em you thought they should know, and walk off. As more folks do the right thing, these folks who violate will be more and more exposed to their rightful reward -- the ticketing officer and judge have the ability to write tickets up to $5000 and/or 6 months in jail.

Thanks to all those who gave a weekend to pitch in and help FOTR!

Randii

[GETTINTHERETOY]

I didn't take any pictures but I did come back down the slabs that night after heading back over from Wentworth Saturday night. It was my first time coming across the slabs at night and the markers that were laid down really helped to keep us on the right path starting down the slabs. In places you do have to look for them so there really isn't the traveling down a hwy feeling. I think once folks know that they are out there and to look for them that it will help to keep people on the trail.

[Jeepndel]

I can't tell you how awesome our work crews are these days. FOTR really does ROCK! And this signing effort, combined with the new deck on the kiosk, along with 1800 hours of work and travel to get the Wentworth Springs Campground shaped up, just go to show you that we -- all of us - who are working to save this trail or helping in any way, ARE the future.

Just so there is no confusion, remember that all of us are FOTR -- Dana Holland lead the WW campground work like he has for years, but now we all just call ourselves Friends of the Rubicon. And all these hours and projects are tracked in writing (hours, number of workers, work done, etc.) because that is how we get grant money to do more on our trail.

Thanks to everyone...I do like how those reflectors show up at night. Thanks, Bear, for the flic.
Del

[randii]

...remember that all of us are FOTR...
Amen! :grinpimp:

If you appreciate the Rubicon, and want to keep it open to motorized use, you are a Friend of the Rubicon. There are some Friends who have sent money from afar, but have never yet turned a wheel on the trail, and others who make it there multiple times a month.

If you're on the side of motorized recreation on the Rubicon, you, too, are a Friend of the Rubicon. :cool2:

Randii

[randii]

More workday pics, courtesy of Jeff, Mike, and Dean (shooters) and TTORA (hosting):
http://www.norcalttora.com/gallery/album227

Dean doing his best Diana Ross:
http://www.norcalttora.com/albums/album230/aac.jpg

Robert getting sticky:
http://www.norcalttora.com/albums/album230/aal.jpg
Full-on props to Brian for thinking to just mix the 'poxy on the rocks, instead of gumming up everything else in sight.

Most of the rocks-n-reflectors crew breaking for lunch:
http://www.norcalttora.com/albums/album230/aao.jpg

Jerry got in on the rock-toting action, as well:
http://www.norcalttora.com/albums/album228/aai.sized.jpg

Dana spearheaded the food (I'm still stuffed) and the Sac Jeepers are gathered around the fire, behind:
http://www.norcalttora.com/albums/album230/acv.jpg

Randii

[Jes]

Big thanks to everyone for your efforts out there these past few weeks.
Looking good! :beer:

[corax]

I'm new to FOTR and last Saturday's workday was my first time on the Rubicon. What a great organization and a genuinely great group of people! Your welcome to a newcomer was really appreciated.
I was on the rocks 'n' relectors crew and found it really satisfying to be doing something positive for the trail. I hate to think what it would be like without such volunteers and leaders.
Speaking of whom, special thanks to Randy for running that show so well and also for taking some of my photos and getting them posted on http://www.norcalttora.com/gallery/album227. (If anyone wants a hi-res version, e-mail me.)
Cheers!

[peesalot]

I saw plenty of the yellow signs on the tree's and good markings on the bowl. Indian trail is in need as a wrong line there is bad. But overall the trail was well marked and the # of bypasses was awesome. almost all were blocked , gone , or disguised/camo'd enough that you would have to be looking for it. Great news as we saw very little trail departure and way , way less off shoots than in previous years.

[Randomquikfingrs]

I think it would be a really cool touch to mark the trail with rock cairns. However, make them permanent. Drill through each rock and into the slab under neath, place a piece of rebar through and fill around the rebar with concrete. Maybe make them large enough to be a formidable obstacle. Surely someone has a small crane that could be mounted to a large rig. When I worked in hydraulics repair, we had a small hydraulic crane on the back of our pickup. I don't recall it being particularly expensive or difficult to mount and use. A stack of three or four two-hundred pound boulders is going to be a little eye-catching. And it's definitely going to get your attention if you try to knock it over to get into sensitive areas.

I've never been and probably never will go to the Rubicon, but it boils my blood to hear the greenies winning. Don't let them.