Gotta re-learn how to weld.. what causes this?

[Brandon]

Haven't welded in a while and it seems like every time I gotta get back into the groove. Anyway, I know it means something when you get the residue or dust or whatever around your welds, but what? I didn't run the full weld yet, gotta make sure the suspension is going to work like this but anyway.. critique my tack weld please :grinpimp:

[BamaJeeper]

Looks normal to me. But I'm just a hack welder.
Were you welding to perfectly clean bare metal?

[JJS]

those welds look alright. i think you're being overly critical. :flipoff2:

[Jeepnford]

That actually looks pretty good,I don't see much crud. If you're welding with a stick welder excess spatter is usually caused by holding the electrode too far away from the steel.

[DavidVanVorous]

I dont see anything wrong with the overall apperance but it looks like you might want to bump the current up a tad cuz the welds looks like all it does is jump the gap without fusing the two pieces at the end of the tacks...

D.

[Aces'n'8s]

Sometimes when I get the same results, I've found that the metal had residue on it. Just to check, what setting do you have your regulator set?

Also, are you welding in a zig-zag pattern or the circular pattern. Looking at the weld on the right, you can see a cavity (read not CAVITATION) under the weld. This might not mean anything as the next several layers might fill it in.

[Brandon]

well unfortunately that's cranked all the way up, she's a 110 welder. Metal was pretty clean - I ground both sides with the flap disk first. I've always welded with the "U" technique, up - down - up - down..

Always seem to get the best penetration that way. The metal was red - I think it got in there pretty good..

[Aces'n'8s]

I know the feeling. Sometimes you have to make do with the tools available (without compromising safety of course). Have you tried preheating the steel? When I had a 110 Lincoln, I found that even a small handheld propane torch increased the ease of welding the thick stuff.

The welds themselves look good.

[mountain4x4]

Have you tried preheating the steel?

x2 Looks like its needed...

[Brandon]

x2 Looks like its needed...


no torch.. but it's over 100 degrees out :grinpimp:

With a full weld all the way around on a hanger I'm not a bit worried about penetration on that one, you can see the discoloration on the metal from the heat - and if it was a roll cage it would be thinner so my lil welder does the job. I think your just seeing a bad "lead off" or whatever. I just don't recall getting that dust stuff on there like that, maybe there was a slight breeze or something.

[Aces'n'8s]

Right. Material discoloration is one characteristic of "good" penetration. Yet, most times the steel will turn a chrome-blue or "steel" blue. With fully welded construction, I thing you will be more than fine.

As long as your welding doesn't resemble this, you are good to go.

http://www.hostpicsfree.info/666385worstweld564.thumb.jpg (http://www.hostpicsfree.info/show.php?img=666385worstweld564.jpg)

[Brandon]

good stuff, thanks :)

Sold my Miller Thunderbolt so I'm lil mig only. Thanks for the tips. Looking back at some older pics I got the residue there too..

http://rcrc4x4.com/gallery/albums/BAsuspension/fronthanger3.jpg

I think .035 is just a bit big for the welder, .030 would be better. Appreciate the true criticism - I wouldn't have posted if I didn't want it.


I'm looking at bigger welders, if someone would buy mine it would be a done deal.

[masonmachines]

i read that link. it was pretty informative.

[mountain4x4]

I dont think .030 will transfer enough current, I wouldnt even try it. Prehreating works, burns off impurities, and for what youre doing, might make all the difference.

A big 240V Lincoln would work too... :D I'm pretty happy with my 210 A Lincoln, I like it better than my friends 250A Miller that cost almost $1K more. Smoother arc.

[Brandon]

I dont think .030 will transfer enough current, I wouldnt even try it. Prehreating works, burns off impurities, and for what youre doing, might make all the difference.

A big 240V Lincoln would work too... :D I'm pretty happy with my 210 A Lincoln, I like it better than my friends 250A Miller that cost almost $1K more. Smoother arc.


I'm lookin at the HH180, I know not the top of the line but a jump up from my 135 and for $550 it's not exactly in the same league as a lincoln 21,

[ghettojeep]

I'm lookin at the HH180, I know not the top of the line but a jump up from my 135 and for $550 it's not exactly in the same league as a lincoln 21,
eeeeee..... Becareful w/ the whip on that thing, if you damage it your going to be kicking your self for not getting a Miller. While almost every welding shop will have an M-10 miller gun sitting there for ~$100, none will have a HH.

I called 2 shops I deal with, one wanted $230 the other wanted $200, They couldn't even get it for 5-7 days..... Not good when you have a half welded ladder rack sitting on some window washer dudes truckl.....

Finally got them to pull it from a floor model or I woulda been fawked :D

When I get some flow after my current projects are paid for I'm selling the HH and getting a MM.

If I fawk it up again, Im at the same $ range as a MM 210 :mad3:

[Brandon]

It uses an H10, just like the one I have (the HH135)..

Dude, Hobart is miller, and just about everything in my 135 says Miller on it

[ghettojeep]

It uses an H10, just like the one I have (the HH135)..

Dude, Hobart is miller, and just about everything in my 135 says Miller on it
OK, whats your point, the H-10 gun is NOT an M-10. Exactly my point, thanks for the back up. Perhaps its possible to find one for cheaper, but no one in Denver had one, they all had a stack of MM replacements sittin on the shelves.

I actually was checking later on Cyperweld, and they sell both of the genuine ones for around $150, the millers I were looking at were replacements so they were cheaper. I have yet to find anything but actual miller guns for the hh.

We went through every Miller replacement gun in the shop. A miller doesn't fit, the fitting into the machine is way smaller on the HH machines. Maybe you could disassemble the HH plug and adapt it to the miller whip.

But the shit doens't fit. :flipoff2:

HH's are made by miller but they are assembled on the pacific rim, not here. lots of the insides are plastic, where as the Millers are metal. Take a look at the two sitting side by side, then talk to me.

I'm not saying that the HH is a bad welder, mine works great, but with the $$ I spent, I woulda been better w/ a MM.

You get what you pay for.

[Brandon]

my bad, M10. I just bought one yesterday! Actually I just bought the liner, can't find the package for it now though.

You must have an older hobart..

[ghettojeep]

my bad, M10. I just bought one yesterday! Actually I just bought the liner, can't find the package for it now though.

You must have an older hobart..
My welder is less then a yr old, but it was a reman. I bought the gun off a new hh 180 whichi is the H-10 gun. I was in a pinch so, Im sure I coulda worked something out for cheaper, or switched parts. But I was in the middle of a project for someone else, so I was kinda freaking out.

[tsmall07]

if you're working with a small welder i might bevel that and do a multiple pass weld.......thats just me though

[Bigger Valves]

I hate being critical, but the welds look cold/contaminated - Inadequate fusion. There's almost no visible flow-in to the base metal, except for a small area on the left weld. The powder that appears above the welds looks like some kind of impurity on/in the top (12 oclock) metal. From experience, light oil residue will turn that cocoa powder color with low amperage (high amperage will burn it off further out). The nozzle also could have been biased downward, excessive stickout, or inadequate flow for the residue to appear directly next to the bead. 75% Argon flows down, it "sinks" in air. Technique looks fine otherwise, with the right machine you wouldn't have to weave it.

I'd seriously consider doing some destructive testing before proceeding any further. Weld a couple pieces of scrap - same thickness as your project and do the pipe wrench and vise bend test until failure. You'll see firsthand what inadequate fusion looks like if I'm correct. Unless you start testing your work it's impossible to accurately critique it. It's very cheap, very educational, and requires little time. Unless you're tearing up base metal, the weld isn't strong enough - period. Don't falsely believe a "pretty weld" is automatically a strong weld. Mig beads sometime look like they were laid with a caulking gun - unfortunately, sometimes that's the amount of penetration they have when tested. It's safer to err on the side of caution with Mig and be "too hot" IMO. Technically, any undercuts weaken the weld, but if I see one, I can safely assume that the filler flowed-in. Example of "perfect (http://www.weldreality.com/magna%20spray%20versus%20pulsed.htm)" mig weld is about halway down page.

so here's my "constructive" criticism:

Stick weld it instead, that's heavy enough looking plate.
-or-
Do a flame preheat as mentioned (also burns off any light contamination).
-or-
Buy a higher amperage mig.
-or-
Try flux core - it's not as pretty, but will give better penetration for given amperage when used correctly.
-and-
Try wiping the metal with denatured alcohol first (let it dry obviously) and see if you can duplicate that powder residue - to rule out oil contamination.
Is your wire clean too?
-and-
Do a follow-up post showing some good destructive tests :)
I really 2nd this guy's advice. However, that link is to a bunch of spray transfer welds and is not what your welds will resemble. Everyone that is Mig'n things together on this board is doing it in short circuit mode which is in my mind a very very different process from those pictures although they're both done with the gmaw process.

[Brandon]

well I sold my welder cause of you guys LOL

Millermatic 210 here we come..

[MC]

I think you guys are being over critical on that weld. Yes it doesnt have the extreme penetration of a stick weld or a nice 220 cranked up but that weld has a decent amount of penetration looking at the heat displacement you can see the heat waves penetrating the metal and keep in mind thats .250 thick metal. The covers your getting are from impurities form the air, base metal, sheilding gas.

[mike]

That's not true, I used to do quite a bit of spray arc.. and I'm on this board ;) It is, however a compeltely different process and it takes a bit to get used to hauling ass across the work. Brandon, those look fine for the 110, the only thing I'd do is do it in multiple passes, besides you're getting the 210 anyway ;) (I still say you should snag up a used 200 if you find one ;) )

[Brandon]

Right. Material discoloration is one characteristic of "good" penetration. Yet, most times the steel will turn a chrome-blue or "steel" blue. With fully welded construction, I thing you will be more than fine.

As long as your welding doesn't resemble this, you are good to go.

http://www.hostpicsfree.info/666385worstweld564.thumb.jpg (http://www.hostpicsfree.info/show.php?img=666385worstweld564.jpg)

I'm still trying to figure out what that is..

[KidJethro]

That's not true, I used to do quite a bit of spray arc.. and I'm on this board ;) It is, however a compeltely different process and it takes a bit to get used to hauling ass across the work. Brandon, those look fine for the 110, the only thing I'd do is do it in multiple passes, besides you're getting the 210 anyway ;) (I still say you should snag up a used 200 if you find one ;) )

Spray arc is not a different process. It's just a different method of transfering the weld metal across the arc. This is a qoute I found on this (http://www.weldingengineer.com/1mig.htm) website-

MIG Welding Shielding Gas

The shielding gas, forms the arc plasma, stabilizes the arc on the metal being welded, shields the arc and molten weld pool, and allows smooth transfer of metal from the weld wire to the molten weld pool. There are three primary metal transfer modes:

* Spray transfer
* Globular transfer
* Short circuiting transfer


The hauling ass part is right though...Sometimes it's hard to go fast enough. :eek:



And back to the original question, I think someone already mentioned, but the brown dusty lookin shit is usually from some kind shielding gas issue. Usually a lack of coverage thing. Clogged diffuser in the nozzle, clogged nozzle, puff of wind etc. Oily metal will cause it too- the smoke from the oil buring off will interfere with the shielding gas.

[Aces'n'8s]

I'm still trying to figure out what that is..

When I came across it, I believe I read that it was someone's "home built" tierod set-up. To the right of the hex stock, I can see a threaded rod end and a nut in there, but it's welded separate from the rod. I didn't see a ball joint on the end.

Either way, I believe it's a fine example of a booger weld.

Hope it was a nickel, car battery, jumper cable weld only so he/she could get off the trail.

[mike]

Spray arc is not a different process. It's just a different method of transfering the weld metal across the arc. This is a qoute I found on this (http://www.weldingengineer.com/1mig.htm) website-



The hauling ass part is right though...Sometimes it's hard to go fast enough. :eek:



And back to the original question, I think someone already mentioned, but the brown dusty lookin shit is usually from some kind shielding gas issue. Usually a lack of coverage thing. Clogged diffuser in the nozzle, clogged nozzle, puff of wind etc. Oily metal will cause it too- the smoke from the oil buring off will interfere with the shielding gas.

Poorly worded on my part I think :) I'm gonna go with oily metal being the most likely as I've seen few folks at home cleaning the oil film off before welding.

[Bigger Valves]

Dang! You made me open a book!

Flux core wire technically isn't short circuit transfer, but there's a ton of people here running it through their "Mig" equipment. "Mig" also rolls off the tongue much easier than "FCAW portable wire feeder welder" even though it's an incorrect term.

I have since learned that "cold lapping" is the technical term for what I was trying to say it looked like. I was more concerned with weld integrity than appearance. Cold lapping seems limited to Short circuit transfer mig, so I see what you're saying.

Good catch! :smokin:

I wasn't referring to flux core at all but more the MIG process most on the board are using and familiar with. I won't say no one uses flux core, but on a hobby 4x4 it's mostly used because the welder is too small. If you want to get technical all solid wire MIG welding on this board (and in the industry) is not even technically "MIG" welding. It is gas metal arc welding. The term MIG has just stuck for whatever reasons.

I do agree we probably have a case of many welding discontinuities. Cold lap, lack of fusion, etc.

Brandon,
You'll love the new welder! Good call!

[Bigger Valves]

Spray arc is not a different process. It's just a different method of transfering the weld metal across the arc. This is a qoute I found on this (http://www.weldingengineer.com/1mig.htm) website-



It is not a different "welding" process in that it is GMAW just like short circuit transfer. However, it is an entirely different process when it comes to what the welder himself is doing both with machine setup and technique. I think that's what we're trying to say. In my opinion (I've done miles of both) it is completely different from what short circuit is like.

[Bigger Valves]

BumpyDodge,
Fantastic post! Good job.

Just one thing I don't think you should be so general on. Short circuit transfer is not for autobody and trinkets only. Used and done correctly it is a fantastic process for welding together parts that need to be strong that don't exceed about 1/4". It's great for clean welds and out of position work which in the 4x4 world we are constantly faced with. Almost all nice rigs you see on these pages that are safe were welded with short circuit transfer. Tons of nascar tube chassis are welded with short circuit and they have proved to be more than adequate. Used correctly the process is very often the best choice for truck fab. The process's problems show up with lack of operator ability, too large of a workpiece, or a machine that's inadequate. Not trying to argue with you just trying to help out.

[jasonmt]

Lessons learned or reinforced from this thread:

1) Leave "short circuit transfer" mig for autobody sheetmetal and ornamental trinkets.


I have been staying out of this thread but this is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Short Circuit transfer GMAW does have it's drawbacks but once you are aware of them achieving a structurally sound weld with this process is an easy task. The "standard" 75%AR/25%CO2 shielding gas with ER70S-6 is a good combination that assures decent penetration and high levels of deoxidants to allow for the welding of less than perfectly clean metal.

As well you are looking at a 200+ amp machine to reliably achieve spray transfer with 0.035" solid filler and 90%Ar/10%CO2. With the large puddle and high heat input it is not well suited to out of position welds, poor fit-ups and sheet material.


Brandon:

I wouldn't worry about the "dust" as it is likely the end result of the aforementioned deoxidants doing their job.

The tacks look great if you are planning to cut them out when you go back to weld the spring perches on.

An initial stringer to fill in the rolled profile and two passes with your 120v machine or a single pass with your new 240v machine with the same initial stringer should be sufficient.

[Brandon]

I'm getting a new welder just cause really, I in no way believe that weld (if fully welded on all sides) would fail. That steel is probably 4x what any factory mount is and maybe it is only penetrated 3/4 deep but that's a lot stronger than stock!

It's definately not a weak link..

I did a TON of work with my little welder and none of it has failed, I have confidence in what I build since I usually build in quite a bit of redundancy (lots of surface area for the weld etc).

Good stuff posted here though, but honestly I don't ever see myself pre-heating metal unless it was a cast weld. I will make sure it is clean though, always do..

[jasonmt]

Brandon:

My greatest concern with a fillet weld that doesn't achieve adequate penetration in this case is not that of initial strength but fatigue life. There is enough weld surface on the mount that if welded completely around it doesn’t take a great weld to hold it together, but once it reaches it’s fatigue limit it will start to crack and your not so great weld starts to tear apart. The incomplete fusion allows a natural stress riser from which a crack may propagate combined with poor fatigue life is not a good combination of factors in a dynamically loaded situation.

[Brandon]

Fired up my new 210 and ran a couple beads. I'm not claiming these to be good or anything, just sharing :grinpimp: I put a 40' power cord on it and it's ready to burn..

The one on the left is a push (bottom to top), the next is a zig zag, then a straight pull and the one on the right is my normal style - the U shape. The sound of this welder is totally different. I need to burn some more practice stuff before I move back to my rig..