Need AdviceOpinion of Experienced Welder

[Kartracer55]

I dont know how to weld, but It is on my "to do" list.

Heres what I got...
1. An Uncle who is an Iron worker, and Apparantly an Expert Mig/Tig/stick and O/A welder with various certifications. (lessons covered!)
2. Acess to an ancient Westinghouse 300 amp stick welder at school
3. 30 amps of 220 in the garage to run a 175/180 class mig.

Ok, So heres what I need the opinions on. People say that learning stick will make you abetter welder when you decide to learn other types of welding, but that It is easier to learn gmaw. others I have asked have said that For a first welder, I should consider a multio process welder so that I can learn stick, and later tig without having to buy a new machine. Thats one my dad will haveto buy, as theres no way I can afford one of them. People say that The ideal thing for ME to learn would be Tig, because of the kinda stuff involved with the kart and all the aluminum I like to work with.

I think I have a pretty good understanding of the Theory behind welding, and the process of it, so Im over that hurdle. How difficult/possible would it be for me to learn to Tig? Its supposed to be hard, but if ican do that, will that make other forms of welding easier for me when i decide to learn? If I spend all day with a highly skilled welder, would I be able to get the basics down ya think?

The reason I mentioned that I have acess to that stick welder, is that It would be available for me to practice on basically whenever i wanted after school, nce my uncle showed me some saftey stuff and the basics. he problem with learning to stick weld is that I dont have the power to power a stick welder (im lacking about 20 amps :eek: ) so I would only have after/maybe during school to practice, and during the school year, not at home and during the summer when I have all my free time.

Thats where maybe learning to mig would come in. I can power a 175/180 mig I believ, on 30 amps, which would mean that I can practive till my heart's content or I run out of gas :eek: .

Im also not one to give up easily, as I learned some pretty oldschool stuff, like sharpening drill bits by hand :D, which is not exactly something that comes naturally. Id also say Im pretty damned skilled as far as a teenager goes. I have had experience on verticle mills, I can use just about anykind of measuring device, I was A VICA/Skillsusa contestant for small engine and power equipment repair(I've rebuilt and Ringed tons of briggs engines), not to mention Ive worked with some very skilled people on a porshce engine swap, Transmission repair on A chevy van, various other tasks. I mean, Im good with my hands and Im not one to easily give up on something I really want to learn, so I dont think Welding will be too much of a struggle, but I dont expect it to be easy either, but its something I really want to learn.

Can anybody PLEASE give mesome guidance here

Thanks

Jim

[rckcrwlr87]

Well I agree with what people have told you that if you learn how to stick weld first it will make you a better welding and make other types of welding easier. I learned how to stick weld, and then I learned how to Mig and Tig. After stick welding Mig is a breeze, I can just about do it in my sleep now. Tig on the other hand is a whole different topic. I can stick and mig, but I suck at tig. If you want to Tig weld you are going to need a lot of practice especially with aluminum.

About a machine, that is all kinda up to what you want to do, and what your budget is. I would love to have a multi machine with mig, tig, and stick all in one machine, but I just can't justify it.

The only piece of advise that I can give you about welding is don't give up and get in as much practice as you can, and have a thick skin, and be willing to learn, because there will be times when you will get told that your welds suck ass. All you can do and just realize it and work to make them not suck ass.

[Kartracer55]

Thanks. As for beng told I suck ass, well Im used to that. i was told for an entire season that my driving sucked ass (my dads a motivational speaker by the way lol) but i set out to prove him wrong. I must have smoked 2-3 sets of tires just on practice and easily $150 in race fuel just to run some faster times. Now, Im running in the top 10 for points in a class of nearly 30 guys, most of which have been driving loabout as long as I have been around.

So do you think that It would be possible for me to learn to tig right off the bat? I know i wont be able to pick it up as quick as mig, but is it really necessary to know another process to learn it? I would be with a welder who has been welding for longer than Ive been around, and he does for a living.

Thanks

Jim

[wizard_Drd]

I totally agree to start with stick before mig. The old school method was to start with O/A first so you learn how to flow the metal. I started with O/A, went to stick, then mig. I suck at tig and don't do it much because my arms are far from steady with years of abuse - drumming and working construction. Same reason why my hearing sucks. :(

[mountain4x4]

Since you want to do Al a lot, I'd just get an inverter style tig. I have a Thermal Arc 185 and its a pretty awesome machine, the 30 Amp breaker might not let you use all its power, but pretty close. A similar transformer machine requires an 80 amp breaker. The TA 185 is about $1750 with the tig package, it also includes a stick electrode holder, so you can try that too. For me, stick was just a curiosity, I never use that process. Only use I can see might be welding in a breeze or something. I dont use it for cast iron even, just use high nickle rod with the tig. (electric welding cast isnt ideal, but it can be done, just need to know the limits of what it can accomplish)

Yes, tig takes A LOT of practice, but its not difficult. Its just one of those things that requires lots of experimentation, and theres TONS of stuff to mess with tigging aluminum, machine settings, torch setup, technique... I'd say go for it if you can get the $$$, if not look around for used machines, even though inverter tigs hold their value really well.

http://www.thermadyne.com/newsNewProductDetail.asp?div=tai&id=220

I might rather have got the Miller Dynasty, but its $1k more.

I use my MIG more than anything, but if I could only have one welder, it would be my tig, without a doubt.

[rckcrwlr87]

Also about learning how to O/A or stick weld before learning other methods, I think that it helps because like what wizard said you learn the flow of metal and everything, so when it comes to MIG and TIG welding you just have to mess with settings on the machine to figure it out and practice a little its not like your starting from scratch to learn to TIG weld.

[PAToyota]

Oxy/actylene and TIG are very similar in that you have a filler rod and a separate heat source. Stick and MIG the heat source and filler material are combined, which means you have to keep adding filler with the heat and vice versa. Simply put, the difference is using gas or electricity as the heat source. Yeah, there are other differences such as flux vs. shielding gas and so forth, but you can start off at that point.

I've heard of MIG described as welding with a caulking gun. You pull the trigger and apply the bead. The problem is that you can easily do no better than if you HAD caulked the two pieces together. Little penetration, gobs of metal, etc.

One of my instructors favored learning first with oxy and no filler rod -- fusion welding. That way you learned to actually concentrate on joining the two pieces of metal instead of just making pretty beads. Then learn to add the filler rod to get a "complete" weld.

I feel it was good advice and helped me a lot.

[ToddRH]

I think MIG would be easier. Pull the trigger and go. Setting up wire speed/voltage is as easy at looking at a chart. With some decent instruction, you should be making beads in a few hours.
Stick welding....keep the electrode from sticking when you are trying to start, you have to move the puddle as well as the keeping the electrode burning. Cleaning the slag at the stops/starts. ARC welding can be a big PITA sometimes.

If you are going to learn, why not start with something you will be using the most. That way, you get your needed skills quicker, and extra skills will come when you have the time to practice.

O/A welding is a great way to learn the hand technique required for TIG.

[Kartracer55]

Thanks everybody. I just looked online and through the phonebook for welding courses. the local community college (right in town) doesnt have them, which would have been very convenient. There is a technical college a few towns away that may have them. The one thing Im worried about though is that Im not 18 yet. Do you think I can still take on of these courses? there are a few welding supply places around here (cyberweld.com is only a few towns over) so I think I will call a few of these places and see if they can maybe help me out as well.

Id love to get an O/A rig becuase of the versatillity (spelling?), but because my dads baby is in the garage, I dont think hell go for having it. Mig looks more appealing because not only is it a hell of alot cheaper to get setup for than Tig, but As you say, its easier to learn and I have the power for it.

I am seriously questioning whether or not I can learn tig first though. It looks like a much better welding process than Mig, but the difficulty of it is what "scares" me. Do you guys think It can be learned first?

Bumpy, that mystery metal has earned the name (now pardon my french) as "chinkaloy" over on another board lol.

Thanks for all the input

Jim

[Kartracer55]

Hmm last thing I wanna do is fry that artifact :eek: (which I didnt know could be done easily by the way) lol. Its a 3 phase westinghouse 300 somethin amp, and our snap on engine hoist was pined all the way in and it looked like it was gunna snap :flipoff2: . Its a bohemouth to say the least. A few more years and its goin to the smithsonian :D .

I posted a similar post over on hobart, SFT, and mark kws, and alot of people say Ill learn Mig alot faster, but learning O/A will put me well on my way to learning to tig, and understanding the welding process better. So, because the school has multiple O/A rigs (which only the autos teacher knows how to use), Im thinkin I will invest in abox of welding rods and a decent set of gloves, and once I get a lesson or two from my uncle, try to get into the shop at least 1-2 days a week and maybe work with the shop teacher on doin a bit of welding. I also think My uncle will be much happier to teach me how to weld and cut and all that stuff with O/A than he would be teachin me gtaw (hehe im gettin all the terms down). Oh and, the cost of an O/A rig is a hell of alot more appealing than a tig setup too lol.

As for my dad and the tanks, well, I think I can manipulate him :D . A while back we were considering getting a mig unit and one of those instructional videos from lincoln and figureing it out ourselves, and wed store the tank in the garage and the welder in the basement.

I really appreciate all the responses from you guys.

Like I think I might have mentioned, Im goin to the outerbanks this week (hell or highwater) and thanks to this little tropical storm, were going to be getting thunderstorms and rain every day, which means Ill have a hell of alot of time to lay out my options and discuss it all with my dad. I also have a few metal shop textbooks that have some pretty in depth sections on O/A operations, So I think Ill bring those along and read up on it all. Dont know if ill be on here for a while. Im leaving around 1-2 am on sunday morning, so maybe ill make a few posts tommorow. If not, thanks for all the input. Who knows. Maybe when i get back Ill be postin for opinions on a torch setup?!?!

Thanks
Jim

[Tim84K10]

You're not going to be able to use a 3 phase welder at your house at all. Homes don't have 3 phase service typically.

[Kartracer55]

You're not going to be able to use a 3 phase welder at your house at all. Homes don't have 3 phase service typically.

I know. I should have been more clear. I was talkin about when we had to move it.



Jim

[Jeepnford]

I just completed a basic welding course at a local comm. college. We started with O/A then did stick for about 80% of the time. I tried MIG before but all I made was boogers. The last night of class the instructor let me do some MIG. Learning to stick weld first made all the difference,the MIG was actually pretty good. Start with the basics and the rest will come much easier.

[Kartracer55]

Thanks for the info. I think Im going to start investigating o/a set ups. Its gunna be hot as balls down there, and Ill have internet so i wont be outa touch too long. ok, so if I dnt have any gas welding rods handy, why is it that I cant use a coat hanger? just the flux? Ive read that its the ghetto way to do it, but hell, I think Ill go broke screwing up all them rods tryin to learn.


Thanks

Jim